#258: Thriving in a remote developer environment Transcript

00:00 If you're listening to this episode when it came out, April 4th, 2020, there's a good chance that you're listening at home or on a walk, but it's probably not while commuting to an office as much of the world is practicing social distancing and working from home.

00:14 Maybe this is a new experience brought upon quickly by the global lockdowns, or maybe it's something you've been doing for a while now.

00:20 Either way, being effective while working remotely away from the office is an increasingly valuable skill that most of us in the tech industry have to quickly embrace.

00:30 On this episode, I'll exchange stories about working from home with Jason Phillips.

00:35 He's been writing code and managing teams from his home office for years and has brought a ton of great tips to share with us all.

00:42 This is Talk Python to Me, episode 258, recorded March 30th, 2020.

00:47 Welcome to Talk Python to Me, a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, and the personalities.

01:07 This is your host, Michael Kennedy.

01:09 Follow me on Twitter where I'm @mkennedy.

01:11 Keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm and follow the show on Twitter via at talkpython.

01:17 This episode is sponsored by Brilliant.org and Linode.

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01:23 It really helps support the show.

01:24 Jason, welcome to Talk Python to Me.

01:26 I appreciate it, Michael. Glad to be here.

01:28 Yeah, it's great to meet you.

01:29 And man, what a cool topic.

01:31 And wow, I think it's pretty timely.

01:33 Remote work.

01:34 You know, this has actually been kind of the, for many people, the holy grail of the tech space.

01:39 But now it's becoming the requirement of the, like, all work, right?

01:43 It's this promise we've all held and had, right, of how we can bring work integrated into our lives in a way.

01:47 And we've been achieving for balance.

01:49 And, ooh, I would love to get a job from home.

01:51 And although this is a real challenging environment for us to be within with this, this is also giving us a new way to figure out, well, one, I can work from home.

01:59 And then, two, I can also integrate work into my life in ways, because now that I have to do it under emergency, I'll know how to do it when, you know, everything's back to, quote, unquote, normal.

02:09 Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this.

02:11 When things go back to normal, maybe in italicies or whatever, like the new normal, whatever that is.

02:17 I think that a lot of what we're going through now that's painful and disruptive, a lot of it's going to stick, though.

02:24 What do you think?

02:25 Yeah, I think just like how other major events in the last 20 years, you know, a lot of things that happened after 9-11 stuck with us, especially around security measures, but also even just different ways people engage with each other.

02:37 There's been a lot more community in different ways.

02:39 And then the rise of the web has kind of enhanced that.

02:42 The downturn in 2008 has kind of changed how everyone thought about stocks and investing.

02:46 And there's been a lot of more casual talk, especially among folks like me, where it's like, all right, yeah, 401k, cool, dump money in.

02:53 It'll be there someday.

02:54 And so, oh, I can do all these different strategies.

02:57 And I think this will be that of how do we bring work and productivity into a place that's not the office and still deliver value?

03:07 And then how do we use that to achieve this nirvana of balance that we all seek so bad?

03:14 So, yeah, I think a lot of the things we do now will stick.

03:17 I think there will be a lot more flexible office hours, for instance.

03:20 I think there will be a lot less of the you have to be butts in seats from 8 to 5.

03:24 It'll probably be 10 to 6 or maybe essential meetings, things like that.

03:28 I also think that when folks do go back to in-person, though, there will probably be a different push for it because we've all been clamoring at some point, generally speaking, to get out of the house safely again.

03:39 Yes, it will be nice to have human contact again.

03:42 I've only been out in public extremely limited for moments for weeks now.

03:47 And it's actually I'm doing fine.

03:50 Our family has found a rhythm to just kind of stay home.

03:52 But I definitely would like to get out and see people again.

03:55 How about you?

03:56 Yeah, I've just started venturing out to kind of get back parts of my routine of taking walks.

04:01 And it's cool in my neighborhood.

04:03 We all we see each other coming.

04:04 We go across the street from each other.

04:06 We wave from across the street.

04:07 It's very socially distant.

04:09 But yeah, just the freedom to be able to drive in and do all the things that I never realized was such a routine for me, like browsing Target.

04:17 Yeah.

04:19 The other day I was sitting here, I was like, it's been a few weeks since I've been the Target.

04:23 And that's a weird thing for me to call out.

04:25 But it's just that much of how my normal routine was disrupted.

04:28 Yeah.

04:28 One of the weirder things for me was I always have my car keys and my wallet in my pocket and stuff.

04:35 And I just looked at my wallet the other day.

04:38 I'm like, I haven't put that in my pocket for like eight days.

04:40 Like there's no reason to have it because I literally am not going anywhere.

04:44 It's just, you know, these really little weird things you'd never expect are like symbols of, yeah, life's not quite normal.

04:50 Yeah.

04:50 Even when I got in my car the other day, I was like, all right, cool.

04:53 I'm finally out of produce.

04:55 Let's go in.

04:55 Let's stock up.

04:56 And I realized I've only put maybe a hundred miles on a car this month because I came back from vacation.

05:02 We've been shut down for a couple of weeks here in the Bay Area.

05:04 And it's like, okay, well, wow.

05:06 And normally I try to limit my driving and do things within foot distance.

05:10 But I like to go on some drives, you know, kind of clear the head.

05:13 I can't tell you the last time I've actually, before yesterday, unlocked my car, got in and went somewhere.

05:18 Yeah.

05:18 These are weird times.

05:20 But I do think the topic that we're going to cover is particular timely because there's so many folks who, for various reasons, either they have always wanted to do this, but their culture of their organization is like, no, no, no.

05:34 We don't work from home.

05:35 Everyone comes to work.

05:37 We're a business.

05:38 We're like IBM or whatever, right?

05:41 We're like a traditional formal sort of company.

05:44 Or they themselves were not necessarily comfortable with it, but now they've been thrown into that.

05:50 So it's going to be a lot of fun to talk about.

05:52 I was thinking about reaching out to you about this topic before the COVID stuff kicked in.

05:57 And I'm like, well, now we definitely, I definitely got to reach out to Jason because this is definitely something everyone is starting to experience.

06:05 So before we get into the main topics, though, let me just sort of get your background for everyone's a little bit.

06:12 How do you get into programming?

06:13 Ah, programming.

06:14 So I think it was age nine when I first kind of really was amazed by computers.

06:21 Used to go to the library every Saturday.

06:23 As long as I did all my homework and all my chores for the week, I can go play Zork on an Apple IIGS for 45 minutes every Saturday.

06:30 Whew.

06:31 Good old Zork.

06:33 And that's where the traditional, I fell in love with computers as a child kind of comes to a halt for a bit because I did not start programming then.

06:41 I'd actually started playing around with programming in high school.

06:45 We had different majors in our high school.

06:47 So I was in the art program and had a couple of friends who were in the megatech or math and computer science section of the school.

06:53 And so I'd trade with them.

06:56 Here's some art utensils.

06:57 We can go shoot photos.

06:58 And they were like, hey, we'll show you how to program QBasic.

07:02 And we made our own like Mike Tyson punch out clone.

07:04 Oh, sweet.

07:05 I would use the word clone very loosely.

07:07 You threw punches and there was a head there, but there were no real graphics outside of like colorful shapes.

07:13 Sure.

07:13 But you know what's so funny is like even like the incredibly rudimentary thing, it's sometimes so satisfying, especially in the beginning.

07:20 You're like, oh, my gosh, it's doing it.

07:22 It's doing it.

07:23 Look at it.

07:23 Right.

07:23 It's like you have this magical power.

07:25 It's great.

07:25 Yeah.

07:26 And then once we figured out that we could actually we didn't even know it was the collision detection at the time.

07:30 We were just like, oh, we can make something move when something kind of touches it.

07:34 And then we'd like take a break, go play Doom for a couple hours, come back like, oh, we can do something else.

07:39 So that was like the first real taste.

07:41 And then in college, I jumped in.

07:44 I was like, all right, cool.

07:45 Let's do this.

07:46 Computer science, math, dual major.

07:47 And about midway through, I dropped both.

07:50 Okay.

07:52 I think it was the calculus three definitely threw me for a loop and discrete math.

07:57 I was like, okay, I'm burning a lot of cycles here.

08:00 This is interesting.

08:01 Do I still like this?

08:04 Let's find something that's a bit more still creative driven.

08:06 So I went to a hybrid program that had still some programming, but we were working on 3D modeling as well.

08:12 So I was like, oh, well, you know, it won't be as much like, you know, write a program, put it on a floppy disk and print it out for the instructor.

08:19 I'll be fine.

08:19 And then I realized I had to program physics for like a tire or a car or a basketball.

08:24 And I was like, this is actually much harder.

08:26 What am I doing?

08:27 Oh, yeah.

08:28 I don't know.

08:29 Like people out there listening.

08:30 If you've ever tried to do physics and hit detection and 3D graphics from scratch, I've done it before.

08:36 And it is supremely more work than it should be like conceptually.

08:41 Right.

08:41 It's a lot.

08:42 Yeah.

08:42 You know, once we got it down with like skeletons and sculpting structures and making characters like, all right, cool.

08:48 I was like, all right, now program this math function that's going to make it actually walk and move realistically.

08:54 I was like, this hurts.

08:57 Yeah.

08:59 And then somewhere around that time on the tail end of school, I was, I took time off to go on tour with a DJ group as a tour liaison and backup DJ.

09:09 And it was for a DJ school in New York.

09:11 And when we got back, I was like, all right, cool.

09:13 I think I want to stick with this music thing.

09:15 And I started freelancing on the side as a web developer.

09:19 So I was like, hey, do you know this HTML thing?

09:21 I'm like, I can figure it out.

09:22 I've written some other code.

09:23 It's easier in 3D graphics.

09:25 That's for sure.

09:26 I was like, hey, can you help me with my e-commerce site?

09:29 And I was like, ah, I can figure this out.

09:31 As long as I don't lose you money, I think we're okay here.

09:34 And then I kind of shifted gears and started doing a lot more freelance work and working through ad agencies.

09:41 And in spending the rest of my time in Barnes and Noble, I would take a stack of 10 books, pick the three that spoke to me the most and buy those.

09:51 And then the other seven, I will work through the code examples until they closed.

09:55 And that was my cycle for like the first couple of years until I really got underway with my professional programming career.

10:01 That is super cool.

10:02 That, you know, reminds me a lot of when I was younger.

10:04 Like I didn't have a formal computer science education.

10:07 So it was always get a book and just study it and get another book and study it.

10:11 This predates like really online course, online video, right?

10:15 So a book was kind of the only option besides going to school or something.

10:19 And looking back, it's super valuable.

10:22 It sounds like you must've gotten a lot out of as well.

10:25 Yeah.

10:25 Because at a certain point, you know, as circumstances were ahead, I ended up working full time.

10:29 I didn't actually finish my degree.

10:30 And it took me a while to kind of shift into, all right, I do like this programming thing.

10:36 I didn't like it that way of kind of academic.

10:39 Let's write an I.O. class for the entire class today.

10:42 It's like, I don't want to go that low level.

10:44 Yeah.

10:44 Let's implement quick sort.

10:46 Right.

10:46 It was memory again.

10:47 Right.

10:47 No.

10:48 It was like, you know, it was like, all right.

10:50 Or, you know, let's, let's start working on pathing algorithms, but we're not doing it for

10:53 animation or we're not doing it for a game.

10:55 We're just doing it to do it.

10:56 And it's like, ah, I need application here.

10:59 And I think that's what a lot of the kind of book knowledge and freelancing really gave

11:03 me was application and kind of creative output for all these technical things I was learning.

11:09 And like you mentioned, you know, online learning wasn't really there yet.

11:12 I mean, at most we had wet monkey.

11:14 Yeah.

11:15 Cause this is about 2003, 2004, 2005.

11:18 Maybe W3 schools was there.

11:19 Yeah.

11:20 There was dynamic drive for all your DHTML back when we used to call JavaScript DHTML.

11:27 Yeah.

11:27 Right on the cusp of what the web 2.0 with all of its gradients.

11:32 But, yeah.

11:33 And there was also with getting books, there was a community aspect to it at times that when

11:38 I look back on it, I didn't realize then of, you know, you walk into a Barnes and Noble

11:42 or, you know, when they were still around a lot more borders and you go to a certain book

11:48 section, there were people of like mission who were looking for books you were looking

11:52 for too.

11:52 So I met a lot of folks who were kind of doing the same thing.

11:55 I was like, Hey, I've just got to figure out this flash thing so I can go get this interactive

11:59 job and do action script all day.

12:01 And so it also built up a little programming network.

12:03 Yeah.

12:04 Yeah.

12:04 This predates meetup.com and all that stuff, right?

12:06 Oh man.

12:07 Meetup.

12:07 When meetup first launched, it was, I was like, all right, this is what we've been looking

12:11 for.

12:12 It's here.

12:14 It's here.

12:14 It's maybe on pause again, but it's still here.

12:16 Yeah.

12:17 Super cool.

12:18 So what are you doing day to day?

12:19 Ah, so these days I'm a director of engineering for bootcamp academic systems at 2U.

12:23 So my team in particular focuses on building platforms for students to take online education

12:30 classes through continuing education schools, as well as the student support and instructor

12:36 platforms for anything from delivering homework and assignments to actually managing the life

12:41 cycle of a student from onboarding through graduation.

12:44 Yeah.

12:45 It's not going to be the same.

12:46 Cause there's a lot of people who originally thought, no, there's no way we can do this

12:51 remote or online or async or whatever.

12:53 And now everyone's doing it because it's that or nothing.

12:55 So let's figure this out.

12:57 Right.

12:57 It's really going to come down to, we're seeing the successes of other platforms in this space

13:03 as well.

13:03 You know, folks doing all types of meetups on things like Instagram live and, or Twitter

13:10 with Periscope or Facebook live right now.

13:12 And, you know, even some people, even Twitch.

13:15 Yeah.

13:15 Twitch has been a real big kind of push, especially as it went beyond gaming and folks doing like

13:21 tutorials online.

13:22 Like, Hey, watch me do Photoshop or Hey, let's walk through what it takes to build.

13:25 There's someone who was writing Python services and connecting to that via protobus with Golang

13:33 and was like walking through folks through that project over a period of weeks.

13:37 Things we didn't have even a decade ago or even five years ago.

13:40 And so now you're seeing that plus the engagement of like a DJ doing a party on Instagram for

13:46 30,000 folks who are all clamoring for it to be engaged with.

13:50 And I think we can marry those models and there's going to be a lot more of how that spreads out.

13:54 Yeah, absolutely.

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14:45 You and I both have been doing remote work for quite some time.

14:51 Let's get started.

14:52 Like, how did you get into remote work?

14:54 Are you currently in kind of a distributed team or do you do it part-time or what's the story?

14:59 Yeah, so what's your experience with it?

15:01 We're fully distributed.

15:02 It kind of started out when I was freelancing and consulting and would do projects off and on.

15:09 And then for a period of time, I only consulted and I was as remote as I possibly could be.

15:13 I didn't want to be in the office with folks and say, well, if I'm going to be in the office,

15:17 I'm also just signed and get some benefits with it.

15:19 But I want to be at home, manage my projects and kind of work from there.

15:23 And that first period of doing it, I would say roughly around 10 years ago, wasn't that successful.

15:29 I had a hard time of understanding kind of how to balance the work, how to balance my own self-discipline.

15:36 And with my current role, we started out remote.

15:39 It's been distributed.

15:40 And from day one, everyone on the team has been somewhere between.

15:45 We had QA folks in Hawaii.

15:48 We had our senior leadership in New York.

15:50 My direct boss was and still is in North Carolina.

15:54 And we've just been fully distributed.

15:56 And so from there, I kind of got a first taste ground up of what is it like to be in a situation

16:03 where everyone's already kind of figure out their culture in particular around how do we engage remotely?

16:09 I think that was something that I struggled with personally when I was consulting and trying to stay remote

16:14 is I just I didn't really have a frame of reference for how to do that successfully

16:18 because I always worked in an office.

16:20 Sure.

16:20 Well, that is very challenging.

16:22 And I want to talk about schedules and workspace and all that because, boy, that's important.

16:27 But one of the hardest, I would say one of the hardest situations for remote is where it's 80% the company is in person.

16:36 And then there's that group of people, potentially you included, who work either part-time or maybe full-time remote

16:44 because the company itself, it doesn't have the culture or the mechanisms to really make you feel part of it, right?

16:52 Like there'll be a meeting and there'll be 10 people sitting around a table and they'll be saying,

16:57 well, and then if you look at this and then that, but there's no camera on it.

17:01 I don't even know what you're talking about.

17:02 You know, like they're just not right.

17:04 It's you're sort of like on the side and they'll let you be there.

17:07 Right.

17:08 So it sounds like this coming into a true distributed company made a big difference to you.

17:13 Yeah.

17:13 Because even though the company did have offices in New York and in a couple other places,

17:18 everyone was pretty much Zoom first or choose your conference tool of choice.

17:24 So Skype, go to me, whatever.

17:26 Right.

17:26 It was like, hey, you have a question?

17:28 Cool.

17:29 I can talk in five minutes.

17:30 You want to just hop on a call real quick?

17:32 And even, you know, being in a physical office where folks are like, hey, I have a question.

17:35 Cool.

17:36 It's like, I'm gonna stand over your desk right now until you answer.

17:39 Or it's not as always as accommodate or even like, hey, let's go into office real quick.

17:45 Or, hey, let's talk in 15.

17:47 And so there was that big push from the beginning of, hey, any question we have, we can solve by hopping on Zoom in an instant.

17:54 When it came to celebrations, we made an overly big deal over celebrating birthdays, anniversaries.

17:59 Someone got a new puppy.

18:00 We was like, hey, let's add you to the puppy's channel in our chat.

18:03 Right, right.

18:04 So there was a lot of embracing around being as present as possible, even though we're not in offices.

18:12 And then when we did have meetings where there was folks in a conference room, you know, we just had a culture where everything was as digital as possible.

18:19 So instead of someone saying, hey, if you flip to page 12 or this person's doing X and you kind of miss out on that context, the context was as much on the screen as possible.

18:29 And then when we did talk about things that were in the room, we kind of always made sure that there was at least a camera that could pan around if you wanted to see folks, things like that.

18:37 So I think we did a good job in the beginning of figuring out and continuing to grow with what does it mean for someone to be present here?

18:45 And then just continually asking ourselves that question rather than what does it mean to get something done, which is a totally different way to look at it.

18:52 Yeah, it sounds a little bit like people tell you if you're going to give like a presentation, use sort of bigger gestures than normal because you're far away on the stage.

19:00 You want to come across like interactive and whatnot.

19:02 And it feels to me like you're kind of doing that in the we're going to appreciate all of the people on this team in a human way digitally, right?

19:10 Like adding them to the puppies channel and doing these like extra special, making sure you celebrate anniversaries and whatnot is it's a little bit like in this medium.

19:19 It has to be a little more expressive and like explicit.

19:24 Does that sound right?

19:24 Yeah.

19:24 Yeah.

19:25 You definitely have to make sure you, you one kind of make sure you have the culture to meet people where they are and how they like to be engaged.

19:34 That's also a big challenge more so in a remote environment is why you have to be explicit and deliberate about reaching out and being inclusive.

19:42 You also have to meet people where they are.

19:44 And in office, sometimes folks go along with office politics or the BVC modeled.

19:48 So if everyone's eating lunch together, then, hey, I'll jump along and have lunch with you.

19:51 Things like that.

19:53 When you're online or you're remote and you're not in that office setting, someone may not want to get that shout out on the chat because they're a little bit more introverted or someone may not want to be added to that channel because while they have a new puppy, they don't want to see other people's puppies.

20:07 Whatever their choice is.

20:08 Right.

20:09 So there has to be a bit more intention and kind of deliberate motions behind engaging people, but also making it as personal as possible, even while you make it as universal.

20:20 Yeah. And I really like what you said about the, hey, I've got this problem.

20:24 Can you just help me real quick or in a few minutes with like Zoom or screen sharing or whatever?

20:29 I found that when I worked on a company where we had, this is before I started my own company, before we were, was on a team and we were all trying to work on something that people would get stuck.

20:38 It was super cool to be able to just say, give me five minutes and we'll fire up screen sharing.

20:43 And 15 minutes later, you're back and running.

20:46 It's like the whole team is basically available and present from, you know, just a few minutes of click share screen.

20:55 Right.

20:55 And it was really, really powerful.

20:56 And I think even being in an office, maybe you get that, but maybe not.

21:00 Maybe they're, that person is in a meeting or they're, you know, they're, I don't know.

21:03 It's oddly seems more accessible when it's just a matter of push a button to show you my screen.

21:08 Yeah.

21:08 There's also, I think the, the tangible aspect of no one gives up control in a pair programming aspect, for instance, unless you have a two keyboard setup, there's always one person who's driving and kind of in the passenger seat, but kind of directing the show.

21:21 Yeah.

21:22 And the person who's actually driving the vehicle.

21:23 Right.

21:24 And when you're remote, whether it's programming or working on a deck, everyone still has full control while sharing what they're working on.

21:33 So there is a little bit of, I still get to feel like I'm contributing more as well, because I'm actually still active in that piece as well as you are, or as well as the rest of my team.

21:45 Yeah.

21:45 Yeah.

21:45 That's a really good point.

21:46 Especially if it's something like Google docs or something where you can literally all type at the same time.

21:51 It's a little harder with source code, but I guess with things like with VS Code live share and whatnot, we're, we're kind of getting towards that realm.

21:57 Yeah.

21:57 Live share is probably the closest we've gotten thus far.

22:00 It's solid for a couple of things.

22:01 I wouldn't say it's great for like a 30 person code jam, but you know, for the odd, Hey, I'm a send, I'm a send a teammate a link.

22:09 It's definitely a lot further and closer to the dream than we've been in years.

22:13 Yeah.

22:13 That's pretty cool.

22:14 So when you think about like different companies, different industries, different cultures, are there some that stand out that you're like, oh, this, these group of companies or people would be really good for remote work.

22:28 And I just don't see how this other group is going to do it.

22:32 Like, do you see it working better in some places than others?

22:35 Yeah.

22:35 I do think service industries are going to have a lot to overcome to be a bit more remote enabled.

22:41 There's just a lot of logistics.

22:43 You know, you take a restaurant, for instance, even outside of the actual service staff in front of house and back of house.

22:50 There's a lot of the staff that kind of still today relies on a bit more of a closer touch point to the actual restaurant, whether it's inventory or, you know, closing books.

23:00 Just because of the nature of the service industries, I guess, that they've always had or at least of what I've seen.

23:05 So I do wonder how some of the service industries are going to further adapt to this remote work model.

23:12 Ones I think that are ripe for anything that requires, like, I've got to touch these physical things to, like, take inventory or whatever to build a car.

23:20 You name it.

23:22 It's going to be super challenging.

23:23 But I suspect, you know, like in the build a car example, a lot of the engineers that work on CAD, they could work remote.

23:29 Right.

23:29 But the people who actually attach the bumper, maybe not so much.

23:33 Yeah.

23:33 And I think there may be, especially as robotics come more and more into the pipeline of and the assembly line of making a vehicle, that there is probably some control for.

23:43 How do we turn these still manual roles into ones that can be just as demanding, but less physical and also enable the person who has the tangible physical expertise to then run that remotely?

23:55 Like, they don't have to be a programmer to be able to connect one part to the car, but do it in a remote aspect, for instance, you know, at some point.

24:03 So I think as we start to reimagine what still has to be physical labor and who actually has to do it will unlock, I think, a wealth of industries to be able to adopt to a more remote model.

24:17 Ones I think that are ripe for it right now are like libraries.

24:21 Okay.

24:21 I think there's no reason these days that we can't adopt a more remote structure to libraries, still keep the physical locations as like the cultural centers and the learning centers that they are.

24:35 But allowing our librarian and other book staff to really be able to like manage and curate entire collections, but also not have to do so from that location five, six days a week.

24:49 They can then be, you know, save some budget to be open during the peak hours when people really are engaging in person in those places and then save all those off time hours to be still at work, but maybe not have to be in that physical location.

25:03 And thus kind of running the expenses of running the library much higher.

25:07 I can definitely see a place for more digital there.

25:11 Like, it's still hard to go on my Kindle and check out a book at the library.

25:14 They tell me it's possible, but at last three times I tried, it's like, well, I'm not sure.

25:19 It's still possible, right?

25:19 It doesn't seem to be able to want to work.

25:20 But yeah, that's pretty cool.

25:23 Obviously, the programming space, like we've been living that world for a long time, right?

25:27 We've already built up tools that even when we were together simulated that we were not like source control and Slack and GitHub and whatnot, right?

25:37 Like it's kind of natural to just take that stuff with you and it behaves the same.

25:42 Yeah, it's and as we've adopted even more tools for decentralization, it's also opened up a lot more of that remote nature, too, because then it also allows for a lot more asynchronous work.

25:52 So I can, you know, you and I can work on something and get and I can be eight hours away in the world and we can still be able to have full copies of all our work that we need rather than kind of the centralized models of before where it's like, all right, well, everything's in subversion.

26:08 But someone's got a branch checked out and that server is only running from that file, right?

26:13 So it's only running that server from like 9 a.m.

26:16 to 9 p.m.

26:16 For some reason, or the VPN cuts off at like a certain time.

26:19 Like there was all these barriers that you're like, I might as well just be in the office that we can kind of break away from now.

26:24 And I think we can adopt those models in other places.

26:27 And I think retail is probably going to be another one that's going to be hard, but there's going to be a mix of enabling folks to say, hey, I can work remote.

26:36 From XYZ time zone and still manage the production line.

26:39 And I really don't have to be in the office.

26:41 Like I can just make sure I connect with my peers.

26:43 I can see the swatches and samples.

26:45 I can do everything I need to do, especially if you consider with AR now.

26:49 And it's really starting to come to the point where we've all said it would be for years now of like, hey, I can try this on foot.

26:57 I can try this on person.

26:58 I can see what this looks like as a digital swatch before we run it off the production.

27:03 You could probably manage most of that cycle off site now.

27:07 I think you're right that AR and VR may well be the thing that helps like the next layer of people who feel like they can't do that become much more.

27:16 Like if you control a robot through virtual reality on the production line, you don't have to be there.

27:22 Right.

27:22 And the car won't crush you periodically in a horrible accident.

27:26 Right.

27:26 You're safer.

27:26 Remote.

27:27 Yeah, it's great.

27:29 So when I think about remote work, it seems to me like one of the important things and they all kind of blend together is around having a routine and having a space that feels like work.

27:41 I hear a lot of people complain that remote work means you're always working or remote work means you're always accessible or things like that.

27:50 And that can be challenging.

27:51 So maybe let's start with some physical spaces, like maybe describe what it is you do for setting up your space to feel like you're at work.

27:59 Yeah.

27:59 So I think for me, I always try to make sure I have a separate desk that is as space wise, as far away from either my bed or my sofa as possible.

28:10 When I lived in a one bedroom apartment, that was a bit harder than the living room, but it was still off enough that the only thing behind what was behind it was my washing machine and dryer.

28:19 So that really meant it was the work and chore station because it's like either I'm here to do work or I'm here to wash clothes.

28:26 But currently, you know, I am fortunate to have two bedrooms.

28:29 So my second bedroom is my main office area and it also houses all my sneakers.

28:35 Nice.

28:36 Yeah.

28:36 I should probably do something about all those sneakers, but I've kind of morphed this space into something where I can really just break away from the rest of the apartment and just get to work.

28:47 So I have with Ikea, got two tabletops, probably a combined 20 bucks, a couple of legs, and just made sure I could set up everything I needed for work.

28:58 So I have my mic for conferences and recording.

29:01 I have my big main screen.

29:04 I have a second screen for some code.

29:06 I have a station that can where my work machine goes on the bottom.

29:10 My personal machine goes on the top.

29:12 So it's also a bit easier for me to physically close the laptop for work and say work is over.

29:18 And then when work is done, I just don't really come in here as much unless I'm working on a personal project or writing some code for something on the side.

29:27 Then I just make sure to do all that here.

29:29 So then that saves my sofa time to really being for relaxing and enjoying entertainment.

29:33 It saves my bedroom for really being just as for all the little tech gadgets and electronics that I love buying.

29:40 My bedroom only has a cable for charging my phone and a speaker.

29:44 Nice.

29:45 That's it.

29:45 It's good to put it down and get away.

29:47 I've got a similar setup here.

29:49 So I'm lucky that I have a detached garage from my house and above it, I've got this little area that we finished off.

29:56 And so I get to actually leave my house, walk across the sidewalk, go up the stairs into this area.

30:03 And this is like the work space, right?

30:05 So I don't even have people, even though if they're home, they're generally not walking through.

30:10 And it feels like I get to go to work here and you can't see it that way.

30:14 Everything is padded and it's like a studio and I got my microphone.

30:17 So I think it's really important to have a space that you can go to because it's so easy for things to distract you and interrupt you,

30:25 especially if you share a house with somebody, kids happen to be running around, then it's like all sorts of chaos.

30:30 So having that space, even if you don't have kids, just going to there to say, I'm at work.

30:35 I'm doing work now.

30:36 I'm not like on my computer and kind of watching YouTube and then I'm kind of fiddling with work.

30:40 Like I'm at work and then I'm going to be not at work.

30:42 That's awesome that you've kind of built in like a mini commute in that too.

30:45 Was that deliberate for you to like say, I'm going to make sure I can get as much separation as possible?

30:50 We bought this house about 10 years ago and when I saw it, I'm like, oh yes, this was just like, this whole area was just like wood, no insulation, nothing.

30:59 I'm like, somehow we're going to finish this space and this is going to be the office.

31:02 And it has the little sidewalk I walk across.

31:05 It's awesome.

31:06 My commute now involves going across the sidewalk.

31:08 Periodically, there'll be a squirrel that'll freak out and run by, but otherwise it's a very easy commute and it's really good.

31:14 Yeah, that's awesome.

31:15 I've been mimicking having a commute by making sure before I actually jump into my office to do work, I take a walk around the block.

31:22 It's just enough to separate me from, because one of the first bad habits I had when I first started working remotely was I would literally roll over, cut on a meeting, keep my camera off and take the meeting from bed.

31:35 And then that became, I would code from bed.

31:38 And then that became, I would have one-on-ones with the team I managed from bed.

31:41 And then I realized I wasn't really setting myself up to be as effective, but also it meant that I'd never got away from work.

31:50 And so then it was like, all right, I'm going to move into the office.

31:53 And then for a while, before I came back to T.U., I left briefly, went to a different spot, worked there for about 10 months and I had to commute into San Francisco.

32:02 And once I came back, I was like, man, I don't have a commute, but I actually miss going to get a coffee.

32:09 I miss seeing folks at the bus stop.

32:12 Being in the world, yeah.

32:14 So I would actually walk to the express bus stop around the corner, meet a couple of folks I used to all commute in with.

32:19 And then when they got on the bus, I would walk back to my house, make a cup of coffee and then start work.

32:23 And I needed that for the first couple of months to kind of get me back into this routine of separation between the rest of my house for living and in this space for work.

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33:31 People say you don't get much work working, much exercise or motion when you work in an office, but it's even like worse if you work from home, right?

33:43 If literally your commuters walk across the sidewalk, you don't get much exercise unless you make a point of just like getting out and walking or something, right?

33:51 Yeah.

33:51 And there's also an interesting thing where there's also, you don't realize how much physical motion you actually do have in an office, even though it's, you can be pretty sedentary in an office life.

34:02 Because you're walking from conference room to conference room.

34:05 You walk over to, insert name here's desk to figure out what's the latest update on this book, on this bug report.

34:11 Like you walk to the bathroom.

34:13 Walk to lunch or something.

34:13 Yeah.

34:14 Right.

34:14 Walk to the bathroom, walk to lunch, walk to have an interview.

34:17 Everything you do is you have to move somewhere.

34:19 And when you're at home, you literally don't have to move.

34:25 You can bring water to your office.

34:28 You can bring snacks.

34:29 If you wanted to, you could veg out for a good 12 hours straight and then realize you hadn't moved a single inch.

34:36 Right.

34:36 And so it's rough.

34:37 It takes a little bit of being deliberate to get those steps in when you're remote.

34:42 Yeah.

34:42 So I totally agree.

34:44 What about time of day?

34:46 I think probably if you work on a team like you are, it makes a lot of sense.

34:50 Like we have a daily standup or I'm going to have my one-on-ones or whatever.

34:53 So obviously you're going to have to be there.

34:55 But for me, I don't have any reason to have a schedule.

34:58 Right.

34:59 Or if you're an independent contractor and just like you have a project and you just got to deliver it.

35:03 I see that it would be easy to just, well, I slept till 11.

35:07 I didn't get started.

35:08 And then I had to work late and I felt like I was working all the time or something.

35:11 Like what's your thought on that?

35:13 I think for me, I've always had to have some sort of structure for work time.

35:17 And then that kind of blend into my routine.

35:20 And even for folks who say they thrive on not having a set routine, that is a routine.

35:25 Right.

35:25 The lack of a routine is a routine.

35:26 It's like you just wake up and you're like, I'm going to take on the day.

35:29 For me, it was important once I realized that I had two peak hours or two peak times of working.

35:36 And those are all outside of the hours of 1 p.m. to 8 p.m.

35:41 Like I'm really good in the morning and I'm really great late at night.

35:46 And so I try to front load all of my morning work with the things that are most important for that day.

35:52 It's a day where I have a lot of one-on-ones.

35:54 I make sure I have all of them before 1 p.m.

35:56 So I can give all my teammates that I manage all my attention.

35:59 If I have some important meetings, I try to make them before 1 p.m. as much as possible.

36:04 And it also reserves the rest of my day, especially since I'm on the West Coast and a lot of other folks are on the East Coast, to say, all right, from 4 p.m.

36:11 on their time is 1 p.m.

36:13 on for me.

36:14 And I can actually just sit and be productive, think through problems, figure out what's next, prototype some things with no interruption.

36:22 That is so interesting, the no interruptions.

36:24 And I totally agree.

36:25 I worked for half a year for a company on the East Coast of the U.S. while I lived for a year in Germany.

36:32 And that 8 o'clock in the morning until I don't know what time it was, mid-afternoon when those folks woke up, it was glorious.

36:39 It was get all the stuff done.

36:41 And then I actually ended up having meetings after dinner because I had to be on that schedule a little bit.

36:47 So I would take the morning, morning, go for walks, go into the city and just chill out.

36:52 And then around noon, I'd start working, have dinner with the family and then go back for some meetings because some of them were on the West Coast of the U.S., which is like, you know, they're just getting up at that time.

37:01 Yeah, I think one of the great things I've really enjoyed about my team is that we create a social contract around the important hours.

37:09 You know, some engineers on my team, they're great in the morning.

37:13 Some others are like, look, dude, don't talk to me until I've had lunch and I've picked up the kids from work.

37:19 I mean, from school.

37:20 And then I can't we can get to work and we can have a meeting.

37:22 And so we just kind of have our own hours that we make sure is at least six hours of spread around time, no matter where you are.

37:29 And then everyone else still has the freedom to be as on or as off as they need to for the rest of their days.

37:36 And it's really helped us all to be able to say, all right, cool.

37:39 There's at least this 11 p.m.

37:41 11 a.m. to 1 p.m.

37:43 Time frame in almost any time zone where at least three or more teammates are all like at peak on and we can kind of make sure we get together, we collaborate and we get all those things done during then.

37:56 And then, like I said, the before and after times is like, hey, it's your time.

38:00 As long as we're all on during this block, you know, you can kind of structure your day as best as you're going to be productive for you.

38:06 Yeah.

38:07 I think that's great.

38:08 And, you know, it's with this remote work, right?

38:11 You have that possibility, right?

38:12 You don't necessarily have to commute.

38:14 You don't necessarily have to be in the office at the same time.

38:17 So if it's better for you in your life that you can easily take your kids to school and then be back at nine or whatever, right?

38:25 Like you should work that in and you should make that a benefit of what you're doing, I think.

38:30 And it can be if the company supports it, right?

38:33 The team supports it.

38:34 Yeah.

38:34 And I think my team is we're pretty diverse no matter how you slice it.

38:38 Some of us are parents.

38:39 Some of us are not.

38:39 Some of us live alone.

38:40 Some of us don't.

38:41 We're all across different time zones.

38:43 And the one thing that's always been great is folks are able to integrate their lives as much as they want to.

38:49 So we'll know when one of my teammates is going to pick up his daughter from camp.

38:52 She'll like wave high on the camera and then run away.

38:56 She's like getting ready for school.

38:57 Yeah.

38:58 Another teammate, you know, she was like, hey, look, dropping off.

39:00 Going to go pick up the daughters, take them to ballet.

39:03 I'll be back around like 5 p.m.

39:05 And know that there's at least two other teammates when she gets back, when she wants to finish her workday.

39:11 That's going to still be here to kind of collaborate and work with her.

39:13 So that flexibility, I would say, should be one of the biggest parts you kind of bake into this remote work lifestyle.

39:21 Otherwise, you could be bringing more stress into the home instead of kind of relieving some of the stress you want to by not having to leave.

39:29 Yeah.

39:29 Do you guys do anything for temporarily getting together in person for like team building stuff?

39:36 Like when I worked for development or we were all over the globe, like Europe, all over the U.S., Canada, some other places as well.

39:46 And we would periodically have these retreats for a week where we'd meet up in the French Quarter or Toronto or Florida or something or in London and just spend a week together.

39:56 And even though it was maybe one week a year, it really helped create a much better connection, you know, when it came to that video call later.

40:06 Like a lot better.

40:07 Yeah.

40:08 We, this year we're revamping how we do it to be a bit more regional so we can have kind of regional meetups and then maybe one huge one as time and everything else allows.

40:19 But in the past, we've done an annual meeting roughly every January where we'd all go to, it's actually a different, it's always been a different city in Florida every year.

40:28 But it was a great time for like the admission staff to get to know the engineering team and say, oh, so you're the folks who are like building this, you know, education software.

40:37 Thanks.

40:37 Right.

40:38 Because they're never going to meet on screen sharing with you.

40:40 Like, why would they?

40:40 Right.

40:41 Right.

40:41 And, you know, a lot of our functions are interdependent, but not don't directly have connection or contact points as much.

40:51 So they've always been a great way for us to put names to faces and kind of really get to see each other and just keep that human aspect of, you know, everyone's beyond like a screen name in a chat, in a chat room or a number from dialing into a conference that we're all, we're all people.

41:07 And we all like some of the same stuff.

41:10 We all like different things and we get to be together and kind of laugh about all that together.

41:13 Yeah.

41:14 That sounds great.

41:15 And Florida is a lovely place to go in the winter when you want to get away.

41:19 I mean, you're in the Bay Area, so it doesn't get too bad.

41:22 But if you're in Minnesota, Florida sounds really good in January.

41:24 That is true.

41:25 And we've gone to some fun locales.

41:28 I think one of my favorite times is when we went to, I think it's Analy Island in south of Jacksonville.

41:34 Is it Jacksonville?

41:35 Yeah.

41:36 That was crazy fun.

41:38 We were just on a resort.

41:39 And I think that year we also had a go-kart scavenger hunt.

41:43 Oh, it sounds awesome.

41:45 And during the scavenger hunt was a bunch of like kind of wipeout style stations where you had to do some sort of physical activity to like get a clue to go to the next station.

41:54 And at the end it was a carnival on a golf course.

41:56 Wipeout being like that crazy show.

42:00 I think from Japan where you've got to run across like wet spinning things or something like that, right?

42:05 Yeah.

42:05 It was like that.

42:07 Just a tad smaller and mimicked, but there was all types of crazy things.

42:11 And then, yeah, at the end was just this huge like potato sack kind of slide and carnival with all this carnival food and a dance floor.

42:20 And it was just fun to see everyone outside of their element.

42:23 But to your point, kind of again, have an in-person touch point to continue to build that team culture so that we didn't feel too isolated from each other.

42:31 And we could kind of it's much easier when you can actually have a connection with someone when you do have to have the tough conversations or the tough emails or you have an emergency situation that you all remember you're all people.

42:43 And there's just a different connection built there that makes it easier.

42:46 Yeah.

42:46 It's not just that frustrating thing where that person messed up the build or that person is always asking you to do something and you're busy.

42:54 No, that was the person you were laughing with and you both fell off the wipeout thing.

42:58 And so, yeah, sure, whatever.

42:59 I'll help them, right?

43:00 It really makes a big difference.

43:01 At least it did for me.

43:02 Yeah, it definitely did for me.

43:03 And especially with the admission staff, just because we've always known that they are always on the front lines doing a lot of the work, working with our students.

43:12 And we just never really got to interact with them.

43:13 And it was like, this is cool.

43:15 I mean, and they're all kind of more centrally based in two different locations.

43:19 And so for anyone who's not near those offices, you just really didn't get to have touch points.

43:24 So it was just great to interact with everyone.

43:27 Definitely one thing that at any point going forward in my career, as I'm continuing to be in remote environments, got to have some sort of annual, at least physical touch point for everyone to kind of get together.

43:39 Yeah.

43:40 You know, it's interesting for me now that I'm doing my own company.

43:43 Obviously, I'm working with authors and some other folks helping out with like transcripts or marketing or video editing or whatever.

43:50 It's not the same where we go and have like a retreat or something, but conferences like PyCon or other conferences.

43:58 Those were the places.

43:59 And I'm really bummed that this year, like all the conferences are canceled.

44:02 It's like it's like my retreat.

44:03 My geek holiday has been canceled, basically.

44:06 Yeah, this the lack of a conference season this year is going to be particularly hard, I think, for a lot of programming, subcultures and cultures, but then wider ones in general.

44:16 Even though I'm not an iOS developer at any shape or form, I used to love being around just being around the WWDC conference.

44:25 Just the excitement and the buzz of all the different engineers and getting a little hint at like what's coming down the pipeline for OSX so I can make sure my computer's okay.

44:33 Yeah.

44:34 Or, you know, going to like things like forward JS or PyCon and it's you just get to the same thing we're talking about getting to know folks in your work community is like that times a million because it's from everywhere.

44:49 And I do think that conferences also going back to an earlier question is going to be ripe for different models in the future of a mix of online and in person, especially for those that have been distributed for a long time over the web.

45:06 Like a lot of open source communities and have been good about kind of cultivating that community.

45:12 I think there's going to be new opportunity for all right.

45:15 This year, we'll probably like try to figure out how best we can do that.

45:19 At least the talks.

45:19 But then next year, how do we fully enable a kind of interactive model?

45:24 That's not just hundreds of people on a classroom link, right?

45:27 It's it doesn't feel the same to just say, well, we're live streaming it like that's honestly, I don't go to the conferences primarily for the talks.

45:35 It's all the other stuff that's never going to appear on the live stream, you know?

45:38 Yes.

45:39 Like the talks for me, a lot of times are like the kind of knowledge slash memo line on the check justification.

45:45 But the people, the people is like the personal, like I, this is why I want to go.

45:51 Yeah.

45:51 And just having conversations you don't get to have every day, meeting folks from all walks of life and just, you know, being in an environment that's going to be for that time period, just about that community.

46:03 See, I think conferences are going to be right.

46:05 So that shift that I think it's going to be interesting after this year to see how we get that back.

46:10 It's going to be really interesting because it's one ripe for it.

46:14 It's also really hard to create that feeling amongst many people.

46:17 So it's going to be super interesting.

46:19 You're right.

46:19 All right.

46:20 Well, we're getting a little bit short on time.

46:22 So I do want to talk about some concrete tools that folks can use.

46:29 So there's, we've already mentioned zoom, right?

46:33 We're actually talking right now on Skype just because it happens to record slightly better multi-track stuff.

46:38 But what are some of the tools that you guys find useful and that you're using day to day?

46:43 I would say Slack or any sort of social chat form.

46:47 We use discord for like non-work stuff.

46:50 It's like follow the same rules, but this is just for us to kind of personally connect.

46:54 I do like Slack for a lot of the work stuff.

46:57 It's made it super helpful to keep track of all sorts of different conversations.

47:03 Also be able to just reach out to someone.

47:04 I like discord for its voice feature, which I think is bar none against any of the other kind of chat platforms to date.

47:12 Maybe close second to zoom.

47:15 But if you want, if you're looking for a mix of like a teams or a Slack with dead easy voice, that's super clear.

47:22 Discord.

47:23 Oh wow.

47:24 Okay.

47:25 I mean, even to the ease of being able to go from, I can, you know, I've been in a discord chat room with a couple of colleagues and we were like brainstorming over something we're going to do for a presentation.

47:36 And then I've got to walk away from the computer, maybe to go get laundry or something.

47:40 And I can just switch to the phone and it actually works seamless.

47:43 That is when I became kind of converted.

47:48 And one of my teammates is like, finally you get it.

47:51 But some sort of like interactive chat application I think is essential for sharing information.

47:57 I totally agree.

47:58 And I also would like to throw out, I feel like video calls, they add a lot to it, right?

48:04 If you don't get to sit down and if it's always just chat or it's just email, it can feel very sterile, right?

48:10 It can feel like you're, you know, you're typing out, you're just going to share, like, I need this from you.

48:15 What have you done?

48:16 Like, or whatever, right?

48:17 It can be very, very much like that.

48:18 But when you get this sort of, I can see you, it still helps be a little bit more real, I think.

48:24 Yeah.

48:24 And I always suggest that for as much as your budget allows, you get a solid, at least 1080p camera, like external.

48:33 If you're going to be doing a lot of, of like screen sharing and kind of screen broadcasting, just, it plays a big difference.

48:39 Yeah.

48:40 We're talking right now on 1080p each and it, it looks nice and it makes it much better than just a disembodied voice.

48:46 Yeah.

48:46 You get as much of the face-to-face combo as possible there.

48:50 And you also have one less thing to worry about on your laptop because, you know, some, some machines, you know, some laptops have had their web cameras for some reason on like the, the anchor point where you've been.

49:01 So it's like the camera's in a weird place.

49:03 Now you got to move your laptop a different way.

49:05 External camera just makes it super easy and also just to guarantee that you have a certain amount of quality.

49:10 That's always in my kind of remote work toolkit.

49:15 You know, while you're on that, what do you think about microphones?

49:17 Microphones.

49:18 Microphones.

49:18 I think definitely if you can spring for an external one, do so.

49:22 You don't have to go get like a thousand dollars Shure microphone.

49:25 Even like a headset or something, right?

49:27 Can go a long ways.

49:29 The little boom thing.

49:30 Yeah.

49:30 I mean, there's numerous benefits.

49:32 The, one of the main ones is it keeps as much of the desktop noise off as possible, which keeps your voices clear.

49:38 Cause a lot of us don't realize how much we clack on a keyboard or tap on a desk.

49:42 The second piece is just the clarity of the vocals.

49:46 When you're, you don't want to sit, you know, right up on your laptop the entire day, especially if you do, or are fortunate enough to have a separate space where you can sit in a chair that's comfortable and work at a desk.

49:59 You kind of want to keep your laptop at bay.

50:01 So it helps with that as well.

50:03 And, you know, headset, I think is the first piece.

50:06 It also helps you to block out ambient noise.

50:08 So there's cars going by or other stuff to keep you from being distracted.

50:11 That's a good point.

50:12 I'd never really thought of that.

50:13 It's, it's a little bit of a noise reduction, even for ones that are just like even earbuds or whatever.

50:18 Yeah.

50:19 Again, it doesn't have to be like the top of the line, like $10,000 helicopter headphones, but just something that gives you that's comfortable to wear that makes your voice as clear as it can be.

50:30 And allows you to just be focused enough and in tuned enough with the conversation that's happening.

50:35 And if you do spring for maybe a desktop mic or something, you just want something that's directional that can, that's really meant for vocal recording that can be clear.

50:44 And again, just kind of make sure you still have that same quality.

50:47 Right.

50:48 Like I'd recommend ATR 2100.

50:50 That's like a $65 mic.

50:52 It has a USB option.

50:53 It's dynamic and directional.

50:56 So a lot of the background noise is gone and it's, you know, it's not that much, but also just like a little boom mic.

51:00 Even I'm thinking of like all the times I've been on conference calls and there's that person who you can just barely understand it.

51:07 It's so scratchy.

51:08 And I mean, you can only take 15 minutes of that.

51:11 Then you just can't possibly focus on listening to that.

51:14 I can, but it's, it's really not joyful to focus on.

51:17 Like straining to hear scratchy, really tinny distant speaking.

51:24 Right.

51:24 Yeah.

51:25 And you always want to make sure you're coming across clearly.

51:27 Right.

51:27 You always want to make sure you're being heard and understood and nothing is more disruptive.

51:32 Well, there's things that are more disruptive, but almost nothing is more disruptive to a conversation than someone to repeatedly have to say, can you repeat that?

51:39 Or, huh?

51:39 Yeah.

51:40 What did you say?

51:40 Is disruptive to the flow.

51:42 The other thing is that I think about a lot too, is that if you have pristine conditions, right?

51:48 Your internet bandwidth is 100% fine and your machines running normal, no hot fans or nothing.

51:54 The better your equipment, the more kind of you set that baseline level.

52:00 So if your internet does start to drop out, your quality is not going to be as hampered versus if it was already kind of a tinny voice or very scratchy.

52:07 Then if you have, you know, some sort of interruption, your voice has probably not existed at that point.

52:13 Yeah.

52:13 Yeah.

52:13 It's really rough.

52:14 I always try to aim for, okay, what's kind of my clear baseline.

52:17 So then I actually know over time, even if Zoom tells me that my internet is unstable, I can still be heard through the robots.

52:27 Yeah.

52:28 Yeah.

52:28 Yeah.

52:29 Absolutely.

52:29 You know what I'm sort of thinking of as you're describing the microphone and the cameras, I feel like that is your digital representation, right?

52:38 Like if you went to an office, you would put on non-wrinkly clothes.

52:43 You would brush your hair, take a shower or something, right?

52:45 You would go in a semi-presentable way.

52:48 And this is sort of the digital equivalent, right?

52:51 If you come through like ultra scratchy and barely audible, like you are not presenting yourself well to your colleagues or the people you're meeting with who are partners or whatever, right?

53:00 Yeah.

53:00 That's definitely true.

53:02 It is to a good extent about managing your image and what you're bringing to the table.

53:07 And then, you know, the other aspect of that too is, is that caring about that image also shows how much you can kind of really be set or knowing that people can see you, they can understand you, they can get everything that you want them to get out of it.

53:21 Because again, you don't want to be on a call and also be misunderstood or maybe because your camera is like really, really dark.

53:27 They don't really get to see your facial expression.

53:29 So something you say might not, might lack the physical cue that would give a different context to it.

53:35 A lot of those things can pop up, right?

53:38 Same as it does like when we're purely in text.

53:40 So I think everything overall with mics and cameras, it just, it helps you to bring the best you into the office.

53:46 It helps you to make sure you can get the best you across in terms of the points you want to get across and just kind of creates that level baseline.

53:53 So when things do happen, you starting from a high point of quality and not from like a barely audible or barely visible.

54:00 Your degraded version is what like a lot of people come in for good, right?

54:05 You've fallen back to that, that titty version.

54:07 As you can tell, I've had a lot of issues with broadcasting over the years.

54:11 Yeah.

54:12 Yeah.

54:12 Yours, yours sounds great.

54:13 What other tools?

54:15 You guys, it sounds like you guys might use zoom.

54:17 Yeah.

54:17 So, so we use a lot of zoom, a lot of slack.

54:20 We use discord for like kind of our, our social water cooler stuff.

54:23 I think after that, for me, it, it comes down to personal.

54:28 Well, one thing we have started using to great success is this tool clockwise, which I haven't heard of that.

54:33 It attaches to your Google calendar and we're all on, you know, the Google corporate email.

54:40 And so it'll look at different meetings and say, Hey, this person's day is very fragmented and all of you are free from one to two.

54:49 How about I move that meeting to that point so that you all have a bit more of a longer, clearer block of just free time.

54:57 That's been, that's cool.

54:58 Hugely amazing.

54:59 It's like a defragmenter for your calendar.

55:02 Yes.

55:02 And it is amazing.

55:04 That sounds killer.

55:05 I was like, it's yeah, sure.

55:06 It'll figure out my calendar.

55:07 And then every week it's like, Hey, last week you had 22 hours of undisturbed time.

55:12 And I was like, I didn't know I had 22 hours of time.

55:15 Yeah, that's cool.

55:17 It's definitely helped and you definitely need some sort of strong calendaring approach.

55:22 I don't know if it has to be any particular model, but you do have to have some sort of philosophy for yourself of like, what is your time and how do you manage it?

55:31 And how do you block it off on your calendar?

55:33 When people know they can ping you, disturb you, right?

55:36 Like for me, I have a reminder every Monday to block out all the times for the week that I should.

55:40 And then I use Calendly to let people book times for me, but there's probably some better thing for an organization, right?

55:47 Like this is for like external people wanting to book times with me.

55:50 So it's not like we share like office 365 calendars or whatever.

55:54 Right.

55:54 Yeah.

55:55 And I think for us, like outside of clockwise and a few other tweaks, it's made all the difference for us to be able to manage our calendars internally.

56:02 Outside of that, for me, the biggest single tool I have is my notebook.

56:08 Okay.

56:08 Because it's important for me at a certain point to just cut the computer off and walk away from work for the day.

56:14 I found that to-do apps and of every variety.

56:18 I've tried Wunderlist.

56:19 I've used to-do.

56:20 I've used notes.

56:22 I still use things for like larger kind of larger picture initiatives.

56:27 But as far as workflow, there's just nothing that's as immediate to me as pen and paper.

56:33 And being able to manage that, look at it as a glance, be on a meeting, write notes in between the lines, close the book, keep the book with me.

56:41 And it also helps me kind of get all my thoughts down.

56:44 But again, away from the computer.

56:46 Right.

56:47 For me, it's really about the boundary between my computer being for work and then when it is for play, it's my personal and I don't put work stuff on that.

56:56 So let me manage everything away from those things as much as possible.

57:00 Cool.

57:00 I'm guessing GitHub probably plays an important role or some form on Git.

57:04 Yeah, GitHub is our repository of choice.

57:08 We were all in on GitHub.

57:10 We use CircleCI for our integration builds.

57:13 We were using containers for a lot of stuff.

57:16 And I think we were revamping some of our processes around like our Docker clusters or cluster of Docker images rather.

57:22 We use Jira probably like 98% of the software engineering world at this point.

57:28 Jira is another powerful tool that if you have the right workflow for your team culture, it just unlocks productivity in spades.

57:37 You know, like we have tools for allowing our stakeholders to create tickets for us that ensures that we have the ticket model flow inserted properly.

57:45 We have our swim lane set up so that, you know, it's a bit more visual to each of us as engineers.

57:50 It's also visible for all the business folks when they just want to know the status of something real quick.

57:54 It's taken us a lot of iterations to get there, but once we did, it's like, okay, no one touched the setup.

58:00 It's perfect.

58:01 Let's leave it as is.

58:03 And VS Code is our editor of choice of that.

58:07 And we run pretty much everything inside of our VS Code.

58:10 And sometimes we'll hop on live share now with Zoom and just kind of chat and be on video and do some pair programming together, which is fun.

58:18 Yeah, that sounds really powerful.

58:19 Nice.

58:21 Do you try to get away to coffee shops or libraries or other, like get out?

58:25 I mean, right now that maybe is not such a possibility because, I mean, like California and Oregon are both locked down.

58:32 Like neither of us could go to a coffee shop.

58:34 But in general, is that a thing that you would try to do?

58:36 Yeah.

58:37 One of the biggest things I tried to do to get more steps back in was to kind of give myself breaks with rewards.

58:45 So if I, in the beginning, I was like, all right, if I stay home and I'm going to make all my lunch, I'm going to, then it was like ordering in.

58:51 So now it's, hey, if I do order out for lunch, I have to go pick it up.

58:56 And I try to make it somewhere I can walk to.

58:58 I get the hidden steps in.

59:00 I take walks around the neighborhood.

59:02 There's like two different coffee shops I'll walk to depending on the day of the week.

59:05 It's important for me to kind of make sure that like every, I'd say roughly every two and a half hours in the day, I, until I hit about 6 p.m., I will take at least a 15 minute walk.

59:16 Other times, I have folks on the team who'll be like, hey, is this a presentation meeting?

59:20 Can we all, can we like walk and talk?

59:22 And so a lot of us will just take walking meetings, which has been also another like kind of thing I wish I could do more of when I was in an office of like, hey, why don't the eight of us just go walk to go get coffee and have our meeting at the same time?

59:34 A little harder with eight people walking down the street in a busy city.

59:38 But virtually, it's amazing.

59:41 You can still be tuned in as long as you're not viewing something that needs to be shown on your screen and you still get those steps in.

59:46 Yeah, that's great advice.

59:48 I really like that because it lets you get that outside feeling and yet you're not, you don't feel stuck in the meeting, but you get the meeting accomplished.

59:57 It's beautiful.

59:58 Yeah, it's, you get everything you need out of the meeting and you also don't have to feel guilty about being off camera and or being outside because you as a team have set that expectation.

01:00:08 Right.

01:00:09 I'm putting you in my pocket.

01:00:10 So the camera's off or walking.

01:00:12 Right.

01:00:12 Or it's like, hey, I'm a mute for a sec.

01:00:14 There's a car going by, which sometimes depending on, I know for me, sometimes I have to do that anyway because I live near an interstate and if I have my window open because it's warm, we're just going to hear a lot of honking.

01:00:26 So again, it's all about adapting to the team's culture and kind of what you all agree upon.

01:00:32 But you can fit a lot of these physical things in and kind of getting fresh air, getting some vitamin D while still being super productive.

01:00:39 Yeah.

01:00:40 Oh, that's super cool.

01:00:41 All right.

01:00:41 I guess one final area maybe we could touch on since you're kind of in the thick of it and definitely have some background just briefly is what is like training and continuing education look like for like remote work?

01:00:54 Remote work.

01:00:56 That is a great question.

01:00:58 I think first and foremost, as you adapt to being remote, you figure out what is the best type of way you learn.

01:01:04 Some people love go at your own pace, kind of Udemy style courses.

01:01:09 Some people like live synchronous courses or a mix between.

01:01:12 And I think once you find the model that works best for you, then you find the sources, right?

01:01:18 These days there's online boot camps.

01:01:21 There's the Udemy's of the world.

01:01:23 There's the Coursera's.

01:01:24 There's all these sources for free and or, excuse me, for pay courses and coursework that you can, you can adopt in getting eBooks works.

01:01:34 Well, I think podcasts have been great.

01:01:36 I actually miss the kind of Railscast style of podcasts.

01:01:41 You can find a lot of it on YouTube or on Twitch, which are also great sources for different communities for learning in different realms.

01:01:47 But I think the podcast style for some of the learning was great because you got the full video.

01:01:52 It was episodic.

01:01:53 And it was something that you could take with you to the gym or while doing something else that kind of gets you active.

01:01:59 I really think that this online enhanced, online enabled learning, no matter which model you take, is going to be hugely beneficial for folks who are working remote.

01:02:09 And if you're in a situation where you're taking alongside peers, especially something that's maybe in a programming or some other practice, you've technically got some on the job training now.

01:02:21 You've got experience working remote with colleagues on something in that field.

01:02:25 Yeah.

01:02:25 That's not insignificant at all, especially if it's like a six month course or a nine month course.

01:02:30 So there's also just hidden power in practicing for the job that you actually want or for the new role that you want while learning to do it.

01:02:38 Yeah.

01:02:38 What do you think about creating like an internal cohort going through like a Udemy style class?

01:02:45 Like we have, you know, like eight hour courses, right?

01:02:48 And you can go through them at your own pace.

01:02:50 What do you think about saying like, all right, this week we're all going to spend one hour a day in the morning on this.

01:02:55 At the same time, we can ask each other questions or comments or good idea.

01:02:59 Not good idea.

01:03:00 I think that's also a great idea for both personal enhancement and for team building.

01:03:04 So there's a group at the office.

01:03:08 They have a coffee and code group for the women identifying engineers at the company.

01:03:13 And every I think it's every other day, like I think it's two to three times a week, like 8 a.m.

01:03:19 They have coffee and they just dive on code together.

01:03:21 And even they build different web apps together.

01:03:23 They learn new technology together.

01:03:25 And then they bring that into their teams.

01:03:26 And that's helped them grow as individual engineers.

01:03:30 But it's also helped them push their teams in a lot of different ways for what we build for our clients and our students.

01:03:35 We also have another thing that we call deal, drop everything and learn.

01:03:39 And the whole idea is that even if we're all learning something different, we're all taking the same hour at the same time to just drop everything and just enhance ourselves.

01:03:49 There's no limitation on what you can learn.

01:03:52 If you wanted to take a cooking course during that hour, cool.

01:03:56 Just come back to the team and show us a new technique.

01:03:58 Right.

01:03:58 You know, tell us about a new sauce you learned.

01:04:00 If it's guitar, if you feel good about it and you want to play us a song.

01:04:05 Like the whole point for us, though, is that any type of personal enhancement and learning is going to help you both personally and professionally.

01:04:12 OK.

01:04:13 All those things teach you different types of discipline that'll apply.

01:04:16 Right.

01:04:16 Sure.

01:04:16 Yeah.

01:04:17 Very interesting take.

01:04:18 All right.

01:04:19 Well, I guess we're pretty much out of time.

01:04:21 So we need to wrap this up.

01:04:22 But it's been great to chat with you about it.

01:04:24 Before I get you out of here, though, I do believe I know your answer to this first question here.

01:04:29 But when you're going to write some code, what editor do you use?

01:04:32 VS Code has been the tool.

01:04:33 Right on.

01:04:34 That's my favorite tool today.

01:04:35 Normally, I ask you for a favorite PyPI package.

01:04:39 And I know you've done a fair amount of Python.

01:04:41 But I'm going to mix this one up a little bit and ask you for a recommendation for a tool for remote work.

01:04:49 And it can be one clockwise that you already mentioned or something else.

01:04:52 Like for remote teams or people just jumping into it, what would you give them?

01:04:56 I'd say some sort of clock or timer.

01:05:00 And whether you do Pomodoro or anything else, just making sure that you give yourself X amount of time of work and an X amount of time of play.

01:05:06 Rinse, repeat until your day's over.

01:05:08 Nice, nice.

01:05:08 Great advice.

01:05:09 Okay.

01:05:09 Final call to action.

01:05:11 People out there are getting into remote work.

01:05:14 Or maybe they're an organization trying to figure out how their team's going to make this transition under an emergency almost.

01:05:22 What do you say to them?

01:05:23 I say, first and foremost, remember that right now, nothing is normal.

01:05:28 It's okay.

01:05:29 Just hold on to that and know that that's true.

01:05:31 And at the same time, know that you have what it takes to do whatever you've been doing in person, remotely even from your home.

01:05:37 Create your space.

01:05:38 Create what works for you best.

01:05:40 Take the tips that Michael and I have shared and create your own tips from those and ultimately create your own system.

01:05:46 Awesome.

01:05:46 Great advice.

01:05:47 Jason, really great to chat with you and thanks for sharing your experience with everyone.

01:05:51 Likewise, Michael.

01:05:51 Appreciate it.

01:05:52 You bet.

01:05:52 Bye-bye.

01:05:52 This has been another episode of Talk Python to Me.

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01:07:02 This is your host, Michael Kennedy.

01:07:04 Thanks so much for listening.

01:07:05 I really appreciate it.

01:07:07 Now get out there and write some Python code.

01:07:08 I really appreciate it.

01:07:28 Thank you.