Pythonic games at CheckIO

00:00 Do you like to play games or solve puzzles?

00:01 Chances are pretty good that you do.

00:03 After all, what is programming and software development but one really elaborate puzzle?

00:08 On this episode of Talk Python to Me, you'll meet someone who has pushed this idea of programming

00:12 as a game to its logical conclusion.

00:15 Alexander Leibach is the creator of Check.io and Empire of Code.

00:19 Check.io is a programming adventure game where you solve puzzles and share them with fellow

00:24 players.

00:24 Empire of Code is a tower defense game where part of the strategy is to actually program

00:29 the AI in Python.

00:31 This is Talk Python to Me, episode 75, recorded September 8th, 2016.

00:59 Welcome to Talk Python to Me, a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the

01:07 ecosystem, and the personalities.

01:09 This is your host, Michael Kennedy.

01:11 Follow me on Twitter where I'm @mkennedy.

01:13 Keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm and follow the show on Twitter

01:18 via at Talk Python.

01:20 This episode is brought to you by Hired and SnapCI.

01:23 Thank them for supporting the show on Twitter via at Hired underscore HQ and at Snap underscore

01:30 CI.

01:30 Hey, everyone.

01:32 Thanks for listening as always.

01:33 Before we get to the interview with Alex, I want to give you a heads up on something I've

01:37 created just for you listeners.

01:38 Near the end of this episode, I speak with Alex about the class management and group management

01:43 features in the game in Check.io.

01:46 So I've decided to create a class that consists of all podcast listeners.

01:50 If you want to group up with your fellow listeners and do some of these puzzles, you can use the

01:54 following link to join up and share your updates and solutions.

01:58 Just go to py.checkio.org slash group slash talk dash python dash listeners, create an account or log in, and then say you want to join the class.

02:07 You can, of course, find that link in the show notes as well.

02:10 If you're a teacher yourself, keep an ear open to the end of the show about how you can do this for your own classes, whether that's university, high

02:17 school or middle school courses.

02:18 Now, let's talk to Alex.

02:20 Alex, welcome to the show.

02:22 Hi.

02:23 It's great to be here and a big honor for me.

02:26 Thank you.

02:26 Oh, it's my honor to have you.

02:28 I really appreciate you coming here.

02:30 We are going to talk about programming and games and some really interesting stuff that you guys have built over at checkio.org.

02:37 Yeah, I love to talk about it.

02:39 I bet that's your baby, right?

02:41 Okay.

02:42 So before we get to talking about that, let's hear your story.

02:47 How did you get into programming and Python?

02:48 Yeah, that was a long time ago, the high school.

02:51 So I remember before that I was using my father's computer only for games.

02:58 So I was a big gamer.

03:01 But at that time, my friends come in and show me his first code.

03:06 It was Pascal.

03:08 And I was so much amazed how easy it is.

03:12 How, what are cool things I can do by coding.

03:17 And I started taking coding class with him.

03:20 So, yes, it was the Pascal a long time ago.

03:23 And then later on in my university, it was Delphi, then PHP, Perl, and then Python.

03:31 And I stayed with Python for a long time already.

03:34 I love it.

03:35 Yeah, Python's really nice.

03:36 It definitely has some improvements on those other languages that you mentioned.

03:40 But also the community is so excellent, right?

03:43 It's really fun to work with the people who like Python, not just the technology.

03:48 Yeah.

03:49 I remember myself starting actually the Python.

03:52 So when I was, my first programming job actually was Perl developer in a bank.

04:00 So, and when the first time I saw Python's piece of code, I was amazed how beautiful it is.

04:08 Is it actually a really code?

04:09 Like, it can be a poem or like a song, but it's not a code.

04:14 Because like before I was coding Perl for four years.

04:19 And it was so beautiful.

04:22 I was so amazed at that time.

04:24 So I started doing some, start learning Python after work and eventually quit my job and start doing Python freelancing.

04:33 That's cool.

04:34 And was that like web development or what kind of apps were you building?

04:36 Web development, yeah.

04:38 Python, Django.

04:39 Okay, with Django.

04:40 Yeah.

04:41 Uh-huh.

04:41 Nice.

04:42 I remember Django when it was, remember new forms, like with this transaction.

04:48 Still my favorite framework.

04:50 You've moved on to building something that is actually a pretty incredible web app.

04:58 I must say a couple of incredible web apps, I guess.

05:02 And a whole interesting world here that brings all the stuff that you talked about, more or less,

05:08 together at Check.io.

05:11 Tell us what is Check.io.

05:12 Back to the time when I just started learning Python.

05:17 I think the first line of code was written during my first year of learning Python.

05:25 So at the time, as I said, I was so much amazed how beautiful Python is.

05:30 And I thought it should be a gallery.

05:33 It should be a gallery of different Python solutions since it's so beautiful.

05:38 And if I create a new solution, I should share it somehow.

05:42 I should show it.

05:43 And I should go through all other solutions and see how everybody else solved this particular puzzle.

05:51 So this is why I created Check.io.

05:56 And later on, I have more people join the team.

05:59 But yeah, the first version of Check.io wasn't that beautiful.

06:04 But the core idea is still from the very beginning to the version that we have right now,

06:11 is that you should solve the puzzle.

06:14 And you can share a solution if you want.

06:18 But after you solve the puzzle, you can see a solution of other users.

06:21 You can discuss their solution.

06:24 There are several categories for the solution, like clear code, creative code, speedy code.

06:30 And I love this feeling, you know, when you're spending like five hours in a row

06:39 trying to figure out how to solve this mission, this puzzle.

06:44 And later on, when you solve it, and maybe even you share your solution,

06:50 and then get into solution of other users, and you're like amazed.

06:54 Oh my God, it's possible to solve in two lines?

06:57 I can't believe.

06:58 And why I didn't figure out this later?

07:00 And I think this is the perfect learning curve.

07:03 Like when you're trying to figure out it by yourself, then see how some other users solved it.

07:10 And again and again, I think, so I know a lot of people who become a Python developers,

07:16 very good Python developers through the checker in that way.

07:19 Yeah, it's really cool.

07:21 So maybe I should just try to give like a visual description of the experience.

07:27 Yeah.

07:27 So you come in, you create an account, and then you land in this world of floating islands.

07:35 And it has this very 3D feel with animations and stuff, even though it's in a flat web page.

07:40 You know, it doesn't, it's not like a Flash game.

07:42 It's HTML5 or something like this, yeah?

07:44 Yeah.

07:44 Yeah, with Canvas and whatnot.

07:46 Cool.

07:46 And so you have these worlds, and each world represents a set of similar programming puzzles.

07:55 Did you ever play the game Myst, M-Y-S-T?

07:57 One of these super beautiful but puzzle-oriented games.

08:02 And it feels like a little bit like that for code.

08:04 Like you go to these different parts of the world, and you go in, and you get these different puzzles, right?

08:09 Yeah, yeah.

08:11 By solving those puzzles on each island, eventually you can get more island open around this island,

08:16 and you can explore more and more island around.

08:20 Yeah, it's quite neat.

08:21 I think, you know, you go into these puzzles, and I guess there's probably 5 to 20 puzzles per little island.

08:29 And you go in there, and they're ranked in levels of difficulty and categories.

08:33 So some are like data structures, and some are finding bugs or things like that, right?

08:40 And you also have a difficulty level.

08:42 Actually, all the time we're trying to experiment with different kind of puzzles.

08:47 So in some part of Checker world, you can find like a machine, like you said.

08:53 You just need to fix the bug on the solution, so we actually give you a solution.

08:59 It's almost working.

09:00 There are some, but some, there are some tests that doesn't work.

09:06 So your mission here to fix those bugs.

09:09 There are some other missions that you actually don't share your solution,

09:14 but you can get more points for these solutions, depends on the rules.

09:20 So for instance, we can ask you, try to solve this puzzle in a short way possible.

09:27 So your solution should be as short as possible.

09:29 I call that coding golf puzzles.

09:32 And after you solve, you can see how short solution of other users.

09:38 And you think, oh my God, I think it's, I'm like spending all night and get 50 symbols,

09:44 and someone find out how to make it in 12.

09:49 I can't believe in.

09:50 Yeah, it's really amazing.

09:52 And like you said, you can, you basically, you write the solution and it's,

09:58 it's run by the system.

09:59 And we could talk about how you write your solution and all that in a moment.

10:03 but you write some Python code that solves the problem under the conditions,

10:07 the inputs and outputs that you're supposed to, which usually they're pretty self-contained.

10:11 It's not too elaborate.

10:12 So, but they are kind of tricky in some interesting way.

10:16 And then once you're done, you can categorize your solution.

10:20 If you want to share it, if you want to publish it, as like you said, like really concise,

10:25 really efficient, you can just leave it and say, I don't have no idea what you would call this,

10:30 but it works, things like that.

10:32 And it reminds me, you know, you can go through the solutions and you can see other people's solutions.

10:36 And my feeling is, it's a little bit like the Mark Twain quote that says,

10:41 I'm sorry I wrote you a long letter.

10:43 I didn't have time to write you a short one.

10:45 You know, that, that kind of thing.

10:46 Like, like I go through and I solve it.

10:49 I'm like, oh yeah, this is, this will totally do it.

10:51 And then you just flip the next line and it's like, filter this, did it at one line.

10:56 You're like, whoa.

10:56 Okay.

10:58 It also, I think it's really interesting in that it, it sort of touches on this concept

11:03 of Pythonic code by looking at the solutions, right?

11:07 Yeah.

11:07 So in the new Python release, we are trying to test this new idea.

11:11 So we actually put, so mission has three stages.

11:16 So in the first stage, it's the collecting modes.

11:19 If you see some of others, you should share your solution first.

11:23 No matter what.

11:24 So let's, we're looking for collecting mode.

11:28 Then, so viewing mode.

11:30 So you might not share your solution, but you should definitely solve this,

11:35 no matter what.

11:36 And then you can go and see leaderboard of other user solution, review their solution,

11:42 and so on and so on.

11:43 So usually what we see right now.

11:45 that we may be some other checker users, we are trying to figure out, out of all the solutions,

11:52 we pick some solutions that we think are the most different.

11:57 It might be not that, it might be not as perfect as it should be, but they are definitely unique

12:05 in the whole specter of solutions.

12:08 Okay, that's interesting.

12:09 So you try to provide like a variety of answers to people?

12:12 Yes, yes, yes.

12:13 So you, all the time you see, when you check editor's solutions, you see only different

12:19 and only unique solutions that we find in checker.

12:22 So this is the third stage of each mission.

12:26 It is really interesting.

12:27 So I learned a lot when I solved some of the problems and published it.

12:31 And I realized that there were biases in the solutions I was creating.

12:36 And I didn't, I didn't realize they were biases.

12:40 Like for example, on one of them that I was working on, I was trying to do stuff

12:45 what I felt like was the most efficient way, not in lines of code, but what I thought

12:50 would be like the most efficient algorithm for like maybe large data sets

12:54 or whatever.

12:54 And that resulted in, I don't know, maybe eight lines of code.

12:58 And then other people were doing the answers with like a list comprehension

13:01 in one line.

13:02 But I'm like, oh, but that's going to be way slower.

13:04 But, you know, I guess it depends on what you're aiming for, right?

13:08 Like if you're aiming for super readable and you know you're not working

13:11 with, you know, 100,000 lines of data elements, you're working with 500,

13:16 then, you know, probably that solution is way better.

13:18 And so it just, I thought it was interesting that it brought out little biases

13:24 that I had in ways of approaching problems that I didn't, it's not like I started out

13:28 to say, oh, this will be way more efficient if I do it this way.

13:30 So let me try this.

13:31 It's just, that's the way I started writing the code.

13:33 So that was really interesting.

13:35 Yeah, this is why we created Couchverse for this session.

13:38 Depends on your, what is your aim to, what was your goal while you created this solution.

13:44 Some of the people just love to create crazy solutions, like one-liners or just

13:51 try to make it as confusing as possible, I would say.

13:55 So we have one, one of the most famous user on check, Vicky.

14:00 And I want just to say hi to him if he, I'm sure he's listening to this podcast.

14:06 So he has the most biggest amount of followers in the game and he is, he'll love to create

14:14 the most crazy solutions.

14:15 So I think the creative category we created just specifically for Vicky.

14:20 And yeah, for those unique people who love to create some unique solution

14:26 or create a creative and they're competing with each other in creativity.

14:31 Yeah.

14:32 Yeah.

14:32 Yeah, that's, yeah, I think it really does bring out a lot of, a lot of interesting stuff.

14:37 Would you say, it seems to me like, tell me if I have the right sort of feeling.

14:43 I did start at the beginning so I kind of feel like I can at least guess at this.

14:47 That Check.io is really good for people that know something about programming

14:53 but in order to do it, you kind of need to know a little bit, a little, almost a little tiny bit

15:00 of Python rules, right?

15:02 Like how to define code blocks or suites and how to perform conditionals.

15:08 And so it's, it's not like I'm bored with my job in finance and I've never touched

15:14 a line of code but I want to come learn it.

15:16 You've got to be a little bit into programming.

15:19 Yes.

15:19 I do have this question a lot, why we are not teaching Python and I do have

15:25 a lot of questions like this.

15:26 Well, you are teaching Python, you're just not teaching zero to like the very first step.

15:32 this is what I love.

15:33 Yeah, yeah.

15:34 So we are not teaching like you said, we are not teaching from zero to some point.

15:39 So I do believe that in internet out there, there are so many places where you can learn

15:46 how to code but there are so few places where you can actually learn how to create,

15:52 how to produce code with a good quality and yeah, and I believe that Checo

15:59 is one of those places.

16:00 So this is our goal to not maybe to teach you how to code but teach you how to create

16:07 a good coding solutions.

16:08 Yeah, I think that that's correct.

16:12 You're right, there are so many places to learn to code these days if you're kind

16:16 of like a career switcher.

16:18 I kind of think of people as they're like, I know that I want to get into programming,

16:22 I have no idea what that means, like that level that you probably got to start

16:26 somewhere else but I heard someone say, one of my listeners suggested that I

16:31 reach out to you again and we get this show put together and I, sorry, I don't remember

16:35 who it was but thanks for contacting me on Twitter and they said, look, you guys really

16:40 have it right, you have it so that you want to just keep learning and you want to

16:45 make learning to code addictive and fun and I think that's a way more important service

16:50 than teaching people what a variable is or what a string is or, you know,

16:56 what an if, the concept of an if statement for example.

16:59 Yeah, this is actually one of the reasons why a lot of teachers and in a lot of university,

17:06 teachers recommend us as an additional way to learn coding so because we don't

17:12 provide any learning materials or something like that, we probably, we don't have any conflicts

17:20 with what they are teaching, we just give them an additional way to learn.

17:24 So if you are, right now, if you are learning how to code and even from zero,

17:31 you should definitely start practicing right from the very first day and you should learn,

17:37 you should find some places to do it and Check.io, I think it's the perfect place

17:41 to do it.

17:42 Yeah, it's definitely a good place to start because often people start wanting to code

17:46 because they've got some grand idea but the grand idea is, it can be so overwhelming

17:51 because you don't even know where to start but Check.io, the missions are

17:55 sufficiently self-contained that it doesn't feel like, oh, there's no way

17:59 I can get, like where do I even start, right?

18:01 You can get started and it's pretty structured so I think it is a great place to learn.

18:06 Let's talk about the experience of doing the exercises.

18:09 Okay.

18:10 I go to my little island which like I said is beautiful, it's got little clouds

18:14 and stuff and I pick my challenge, my puzzle and then it takes me to an online editor,

18:21 right?

18:21 We have online editor and actually at the same time with online editor we also have

18:27 web plugins and with those web plugins that you can install in your Chrome browser

18:34 Firefox, you can use your local editor actually.

18:39 So you don't need to actually, if you start doing some big solution or working on

18:44 a big problem on Check.io, you most of the time use your local editor.

18:49 So we give you this opportunity to use your local editor and then you just

18:54 open the Check.io and you see your code right from your local editor in our web editor.

18:59 Oh, okay.

19:00 That's awesome.

19:01 So like if I'm using PyCharm or Sublime Text or something like that, I can just sort of

19:06 download it and somehow the web plugin keeps my local version and my Check.io version

19:12 in sync?

19:13 Yes, yes, yes.

19:14 We're synchronized of both of those solutions.

19:17 So right after you make some changes in our web version of Check.io, this goes to your local editor

19:25 there as well.

19:25 So it's very easy for you to solve and actually, since you mentioned PyCharm,

19:32 we also partnering with PyCharm and also and the whole partnership starts with

19:39 PyCharm Education.

19:40 So we have this PyCharm has a plugin for PyCharm Education and using those plugins

19:48 you actually can solve puzzle actually by using PyCharm.

19:53 so the whole Check.io interface, those mission description, the island structure,

19:59 animation, and it all goes to write in your PyCharm editor and you can solve

20:07 coding puzzles right from there.

20:08 Oh, that's pretty interesting.

20:10 So I didn't realize that you guys integrated with PyCharm Education Edition.

20:14 So people have heard me go on and on about how I like PyCharm as like a proper editor,

20:19 but they have an alternate version for education that has these like lessons

20:24 built into it and so you guys have integrated with those lessons in some way?

20:27 Yeah.

20:28 They have this ability to create plugins for the PyCharm Education and right when I

20:34 figured out that PyCharm, my favorite editor, created the educational version

20:39 and I was, it is so crazy.

20:42 I should find a way to be part of this and yeah, I contact with them, we start doing

20:48 those plugins and eventually, yes, the plugin was released and we're both happy.

20:55 That's nice.

20:56 I'm going to have to check that out now.

20:57 So yeah, and one more unique idea for Checker Editor that we are using and the user love it

21:06 is that for some of the mission, we create this try it panel.

21:11 So let me tell you the idea.

21:14 so we wanted to present the solution you are trying to solve with some interface.

21:20 So we create for almost each coding puzzle, we create some interface.

21:26 For instance, if you need to find all the unique symbols in a piece of text,

21:33 right, we give you this text input and you can put your text in this input

21:39 and then click tests and it gives you the result, what symbols were unique

21:46 in this particular text and in order to get the result, those interface actually using

21:52 your code, the code that you have written in the editor.

21:56 And for instance, one other mission that's one of my favorite is Open Labyrinth

22:03 and there you have actually the whole labyrinth created and the idea for puzzle

22:10 is to find a way to get out of the labyrinth.

22:15 And in this interface, you can create your own labyrinths.

22:19 After clicking solve, you see how some arrow, small, tiny arrow, trying to get,

22:27 find a way out of the labyrinth by using actually the program that you created.

22:32 So, in such a way, we're trying to show you that every piece of code has

22:39 an interface that's probably going to use your code.

22:43 It's not just this boring function or boring piece of code.

22:48 Take these numbers or turn those numbers, but something more advanced, huh?

22:51 Yes, yes.

22:53 This portion of Talk Python is brought to you by Hired.

23:07 Hired is the platform for top Python developer jobs.

23:10 Create your profile and instantly get access to 3,500 companies who will work

23:14 to compete with you.

23:15 Take it from one of Hired's users who recently got a job and said, I had my

23:18 first offer on Thursday after going live on Monday and I ended up getting

23:22 eight offers in total.

23:23 I've worked with recruiters in the past, but they've always been pretty hit and

23:26 miss.

23:27 I tried LinkedIn, but I found Hired to be the best.

23:29 I really like knowing the salary up front.

23:32 Privacy was also a huge seller for me.

23:34 Sounds awesome, doesn't it?

23:36 Well, wait until you hear about the signing bonus.

23:38 Everyone who accepts a job from Hired gets $1,000 signing bonus.

23:41 And as Talk Python listeners, it gets way sweeter.

23:44 Use the link Hired.com slash Talk Python to me and Hired will double the signing bonus

23:48 to $2,000.

23:50 Opportunity's knocking.

23:51 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python to me and answer the door.

23:54 So the editor is really cool, and the fact that you integrate with the local

24:05 editors, I think, is even better.

24:07 And I noticed that at the top it says you can import some modules or create

24:12 additional functions or things like that, or classes or whatever.

24:16 Yeah, we have a set of modules that we allow you to import.

24:20 Yeah, that's what I was going to ask.

24:22 Like, surely pretty much the standard library for the most part, but then

24:26 are there external open source ones as well?

24:29 A lot of users ask to add SciPy.

24:32 Sure, some of the machine learning stuff maybe, yeah.

24:34 And NumPy.

24:35 So we integrated all of those modules for them, and even for Python version.

24:41 For Python, we created the specific category for those solution.

24:46 We call it third party solution.

24:48 And if you are using those kind of modules, we encourage you to share your solution

24:55 in those categories.

24:56 So for those categories, you can check solutions that are using those modules.

25:02 Oh, that's really cool.

25:03 Now, another thing that I see up at the top that makes me smile is in this

25:09 editor, and if you've ever used something like JS Fiddle, it's a little bit

25:14 like that with multiple panes and so on, if you haven't checked it out, is it

25:17 has sort of navigation, and one of the dropdowns at the top is it says I

25:21 can pick my Python version, and I could pick Python 2.7, but the one that I have

25:26 active is actually Python 3.6 alpha 3, or A3.

25:32 That's pretty awesome that you guys are running such a new version of Python 3.

25:38 Yeah, we are trying to keep Python version as fresh as possible, so users of

25:45 Check.io can play with the freshest Python version as early as possible, and

25:52 show some awesome solutions with new cool Python features that are coming out

25:59 soon.

25:59 So yeah.

26:00 Yeah, that's really cool.

26:02 So if you want to say, look, I'm going to demonstrate how much easier this

26:05 problem is to solve in Python 3.6 than it was in 3.4 or something.

26:09 You can do that, right?

26:10 Yeah.

26:11 Yeah.

26:11 Yeah.

26:12 How awesome.

26:13 Okay.

26:13 That's really cool.

26:14 Thank you.

26:15 Yeah, you bet.

26:16 So once I get my solution and I write it, and I can play around with it,

26:21 my console or my local editor, I mean the online terminal console, or my

26:26 local editor, and then once it passes, it gives me a couple of options, right?

26:31 I can basically just save it, or I can publish it and share it with the world, right?

26:36 As I said, this is what the first, very first idea of checkout, the core idea of

26:41 sharing code solution with other users.

26:44 So this is where you can share your code, pick a category, in which category

26:49 actually you want to share your code.

26:51 It can be a clear solution if you think this is the code the most appropriate

26:56 for actually production code.

26:59 This can be creative solution like one liner, some crazy ideas, some funny solutions.

27:07 It can be speedy when you're focusing, so no matter how clear it is, I only

27:13 want to create the solution as fast as possible, and as I mentioned, just

27:19 earlier, third-party solution when you're just using some additional modules,

27:25 and we also have uncategorized.

27:28 When you're not sure which category you want to share, you just want to share

27:33 this solution.

27:33 Maybe later on you want to share with your friends as well, so we create this category

27:38 for you as well.

27:39 So, yes.

27:40 And after you share, or maybe after you solve, you can get into solution of other

27:47 users.

27:48 This is actually where all the magic happens.

27:50 You actually can see solution of others, upvote, downvote solutions, you can make code

27:58 reviews, and sometimes we have so crazy code reviews, very details, like every line,

28:05 why it's good, why it's bad, and, yeah, very educational part of Checker

28:09 is actually inside of these solutions sharing.

28:13 And you can actually follow some of the people, some of the people on Checker, and

28:19 you can filter all the solution by only people you follow.

28:23 So it's easy for you to find your favorite solution.

28:27 Yeah, that's cool.

28:28 Like, you've got, like, an activity, sort of stream of activity on there, and it'll

28:34 show you, like, this is the activity around the various puzzles you've solved, or you

28:38 can follow people and things like that, right?

28:40 One of the earliest features as well, somehow it become naturally, like,

28:45 if I very love what some of the user is doing, I want to follow him, I want to know

28:53 first what other solution this guy have made, and what code reviews he's

28:59 doing, which solution he'll like and don't like.

29:01 And that's why we created this activity, so you can follow your friends, maybe your

29:07 classmates, maybe your teacher, actually, or maybe just a random guy who's just

29:13 using, like, Becky.

29:15 Yeah, that's cool.

29:16 So if I'm, like, so the other thing I can do once I publish it is I can start cycling

29:20 through similar solutions that are either similar or different than mine,

29:24 and maybe I find one that's like, oh, that is so much more clever than what I

29:28 had done.

29:29 Maybe you could follow that person and just see what they're up to, right?

29:31 Yeah.

29:32 We actually, in activity line, we actually can propose you some of the users to follow.

29:38 Depends on maybe you have some intersection with this user during the game, like,

29:44 you like his solution a lot, or you, this person actually give you some code reviews

29:51 or whatever, some, any kind of intersection.

29:55 So when you next time get into your activity feed, we can propose you.

30:00 Maybe you want to follow this guy since you have so many common interests.

30:04 So, yeah.

30:05 Yeah.

30:06 Yeah.

30:06 Yeah.

30:06 Very cool.

30:07 You also have levels, like, reminds me of playing the MUDs way back when,

30:12 level 1 to 20, and there's just a few people that are 20.

30:16 That's cool.

30:16 Switch gears from the CheckIO puzzle story for just a moment.

30:22 The other thing that you can do, in addition to solving these puzzles in

30:26 this mist-like, sort of, visit the island style, is there's more of a tower defense,

30:32 World of Warcraft type of game that you've also created that has to do with

30:35 code.

30:35 Why don't you tell people about that?

30:36 So about a year ago, maybe more, we created one more game, Empire of Code.

30:42 So the idea of this game was what can happen on intersections, some popular game, like

30:48 Tower Defense, like Clash of Clans.

30:51 So we used Clash of Clans or Boom Beach as the game based game part of this.

30:57 And add coding there.

31:00 And what kind of game we can create?

31:03 What can it be?

31:04 So we start working and this is what happens.

31:07 Empire of Code is intersection, or you can say it's mixing of game strategy, like

31:16 coding, like Boom Beach, and coding.

31:19 So when you get started out, you have, you know, like a base and you can

31:24 build attack type units, like people and whatnot, and defensive ones, like

31:30 little turrets and whatnot, like a standard tower defense game.

31:35 But then how does coding fit into this?

31:37 This is a good question.

31:39 One of the ideas behind Empire of Code is that you actually can play this game

31:44 even without coding.

31:45 So you should somehow know how to code in order to progress in the game.

31:52 In Empire of Code, you don't need it.

31:54 You just play the game as long as you want.

31:57 But eventually, some puzzles can pop up and tell you, okay, you can improve this

32:04 building if you solve this puzzle.

32:06 You may not, but if you solve this puzzle, this building that produces resources

32:13 for your troops can produce in a more efficient way.

32:18 So you might, okay, good to know.

32:21 I'll get back to it later.

32:23 Or maybe you can start right away.

32:25 So this is one part where coding actually can be used.

32:32 And another part of the game is that actually in order to control your troops in the

32:38 game, you should do coding.

32:40 So on the coding, you can control your troops in the battle.

32:45 So I'll say it again.

32:46 You can control your troops in the battle by code.

32:50 So you can say, okay, this can go at that point and then attack this tower by reading

32:56 a code.

32:57 but in the same time, we give you some basic strategy that you can use without

33:03 going.

33:03 So use whatever strategy you want.

33:06 And the awesomest part of this, the whole game, is that the whole game is the

33:10 competition between two forces, Python and JavaScript.

33:13 So right after you finish the tutorial, you should choose which side you want

33:21 to join.

33:22 if you join a Python site, you can conquer Python bases.

33:26 You can only conquer JavaScript bases.

33:29 And if you choose JavaScript side, you can only conquer Python bases and

33:35 still resources from that bases.

33:37 So it's pretty fun as well.

33:39 That's really awesome.

33:39 So these puzzles you solve around like your buildings and structures and

33:43 whatnot, is that a little bit like letting you mob the game?

33:47 Like you can change the behavior of the thing?

33:49 Or is it more just like you solve the puzzles and it gets more power?

33:52 Do you know what I mean?

33:53 Like could I write an algorithm that would change the way like say a tower works as

33:58 part of like improving it?

33:59 Or do I just like solve a puzzle and then the tower goes up a level or something?

34:03 Thank you for this question.

34:04 Actually for towers that defend your base, there are actually two kinds of puzzles.

34:11 The first kind of puzzles is they just after you solve this puzzle, the tower becomes

34:17 stronger or it has more health and it's hard to destroy the tower.

34:22 And another coding part of this tower is you actually can write a strategy as

34:30 well as like you are creating strategy for your troops in the battle, you can

34:35 create strategy for your defend tower.

34:38 So for instance, it can be, okay, if I see a heavy bot running on me and some small

34:48 bots that also running on me right now, I would like to destroy those small bots first

34:55 and then I start doing, like I start destroying, start attacking those heavy

35:04 bots because it's more efficient in that way.

35:06 So you can play this strategy on a defense base, on a defense building.

35:11 Does it make sense?

35:12 Yeah, yeah, that's really cool.

35:14 nice.

35:14 Yeah, and you can basically when you get into an area, you can say attack with this

35:20 strategy and then you can actually have like a little editor for each strategy, right?

35:24 Yeah, yeah.

35:25 And one of the awesome parts that I love a lot, so do you remember I said

35:29 that there's actually competition between two forces, Python and JavaScript.

35:34 But actually you can ask your, if you are playing for Python, you can ask your Python

35:40 fellows that also play in this game, can you test my defense strategy?

35:45 And they actually play against your strategy, but the difference is nobody,

35:49 they are not going to lose their troops and you're not going to lose any resources in

35:54 any cases.

35:55 So you can use your teammates for testing your strategies, for testing your defense

36:02 and attack strategy.

36:03 Yeah, that's really cool.

36:04 Thanks.

36:05 Yeah, it seems like a fun game.

36:06 I wasn't able to play it super far into the game, but it's definitely a cool idea.

36:11 I like it.

36:11 And that's also a web-based game, right?

36:13 Yeah, it's completely web-based, HTML5.

36:17 We all want to ship our software faster, respond to user requests, and build an edge on

36:36 the competition.

36:36 But the faster you go, the more likely a bug or issue will slip by and cause

36:41 your users grief.

36:42 I have the same trade-offs with my Talk Python websites and infrastructure.

36:45 That's why I use SnapCI.

36:46 Every time I check in at GitHub, SnapCI springs into action.

36:50 A clean copy of code is pulled from GitHub, a Python 3 virtual environment is created,

36:54 all the packages and dependencies are installed, the unit tests are run,

36:58 finally I'm notified in Slack and a menu bar on my Mac about the outcome.

37:02 That way I know it's safe to ship a shiny new version of my web app.

37:05 Ship your software faster with a 30-day free trial at snap.ci slash Talk Python.

37:19 It's kind of played on like a tablet or a phone, on the browser on them.

37:23 It's not very adapted for iPhone right now, but we are working on it.

37:27 The most efficient way to play in this game is from your desktop.

37:33 Yeah.

37:33 Yeah, sure.

37:34 Any browser.

37:35 Something with a keyboard and a mouse.

37:37 Cool.

37:37 So, I haven't brought it up yet because it's not super relevant to the audience necessarily,

37:43 but one of the things you guys did just add, and you touched on it here, is you've

37:47 recently added JavaScript support.

37:49 Like, it used to be just Python for, say, like the Czech I.O.

37:52 puzzles, but now you have JavaScript versions as well, right?

37:54 Yeah.

37:55 So, in Czech I.O.

37:56 we decide not to create a lot of languages at one time.

38:00 So, a lot of coding puzzles, coding games, or something like that, they are adding

38:07 many languages in one time.

38:09 So, 20 different languages.

38:11 you can use any of your favorite languages in order to solve the puzzle.

38:14 First of all, we were in Python.

38:17 We tested a lot of different ideas.

38:21 What does work, what doesn't work.

38:24 And then, later, when we figured out, okay, we have pretty solid ideas, and we can replicate

38:29 it.

38:29 The next language to try for us become a JavaScript.

38:36 So, we decided to start growing JavaScript communities.

38:40 Since JavaScript become more and more popular, there are a lot of new frameworks,

38:46 new ideas coming out of the JavaScript, and there are new fancy ways to coding JavaScript,

38:53 like React, and so on and so on.

38:55 So, we decided to create something for JavaScript community as well, since we are all

39:01 coding JavaScript somehow, and want to learn how to do it in a more efficient way.

39:06 So, we just recently released JavaScript Checker for JavaScript players.

39:12 So, the Checker become a portal between Python coders, between Python Checker

39:20 and JavaScript Checker.

39:21 But, every portal is still independent.

39:24 So, in Python, we are talking only about Python.

39:27 All the solutions only about Python.

39:30 And in JavaScript, it's also independent.

39:33 So, yes.

39:34 Yeah, okay.

39:34 Yeah, very, very cool.

39:35 So, if you're into JavaScript, also, I'll do something here for you.

39:39 Nice.

39:40 Now, one of the things I like when I go to a mission is, if I go there, it has like a

39:46 summary description, then a button to solve it, and that's cool.

39:49 But it also has a GitHub link at the bottom to the actual problem, the verification,

39:56 and everything.

39:57 And they're stored in various places, but one of the places that has a whole

40:02 bunch of them is github.com/checkio-missions.

40:06 And you guys have many, many pages of the solutions and the starter code,

40:12 because often you start with starter code and little tests and whatnot.

40:15 I think that's a really cool touch that each one of these missions or puzzles,

40:19 rather, you can go and see the code for.

40:22 Yeah.

40:22 So, what we decide is we decide to open source those puzzles, and there are

40:29 some reasons for that.

40:30 first of all, while we're creating some puzzles, we often make some mistakes,

40:37 like we forgot to add some tests, and after you go through the solution,

40:44 you think, okay, this is the wrong solution, it shouldn't work.

40:49 And you go to a mission repository and see, okay, they don't have this test,

40:55 and they should have.

40:57 And you create a pull request to us that explains you guys should add this test,

41:02 and we add this new test for this mission and test all the solutions once again.

41:08 So, one of the reasons is so the community can improve our mission.

41:13 Yeah, I think if you're looking at a problem and you're like, oh, but it's not testing this,

41:17 and this person who says they have a solution, it's not really the right solution,

41:20 that can be frustrating.

41:22 so you could just go do a GitHub pull request and go, I'm at another test,

41:25 right?

41:25 Something like this.

41:26 Yeah, that's cool.

41:27 Also, what we allow our community is to provide a translation permission.

41:32 So, actually, you can, each mission has up to seven different languages.

41:38 So, you can choose which language you want to read this particular mission.

41:43 And we have a lot of Chinese translation, Russian, of course, Ukrainian,

41:47 Spanish, and German.

41:49 So, a lot of people can just commit a new translation just from GitHub.

41:54 They just go and create a new pull request with new translation and we just

42:00 merge this pull request and check have one more new translation.

42:05 This particular mission have one more new translation.

42:08 And, for instance, if I'm native Russian and Ukrainian speaker, I can see

42:14 translation, Russian translation, okay, this is not correct and go and make

42:19 a pull request in this translation and make this translation even better.

42:22 So, yeah.

42:24 Yeah, that is really cool.

42:25 Yeah.

42:25 And also, an additional way, additional thing that you can actually improve

42:31 in CheckIO is that we actually have a set of hints for some mission.

42:35 So, if you're stuck in a solving mission, we have a set of hints and that

42:42 allows you with small pushes that can get you in the right way by doing this

42:49 small push like, okay, maybe you should try to Google this thing.

42:54 Maybe, what do you think if we, here is the link on a Python tutorial, maybe you

42:59 can find something here.

43:01 So, those small pushes, we call hints.

43:04 And, you can do a pull request and give us some hints for this mission.

43:13 that's really cool.

43:14 Can I create my own mission?

43:16 Like, if I want to add a mission to the scientific expedition island, how do I

43:21 do that?

43:22 We have a set of tools for mission creatives.

43:25 And, actually, there are a lot of missions that was created by other users who

43:31 has an idea.

43:32 Sometimes, users can just send me an email.

43:34 I have an awesome idea, but I don't have time to create it.

43:38 Can you create it?

43:39 Yes, of course, we can create this mission for you.

43:41 But, sometimes, users just create those missions by themselves.

43:45 And, if you find in the mission, the right panel of the mission, there are

43:51 a page with after name on this page.

43:55 So, each mission has their own after who created that, who actually created this

44:00 mission.

44:00 Yeah, that's cool.

44:01 I saw that.

44:02 Is there criteria for taking a mission or not?

44:05 Like, if somebody makes a mission and it's basically the same as another,

44:08 would you say, thanks, but no?

44:10 Or, what do you look for when somebody comes with an idea?

44:14 We have some procedure in order to accept this mission to Checker Map.

44:21 So, every person who created this mission, he should submit this mission first

44:27 on the forum, in some specific section of the forum, and where experienced

44:36 players who played a lot in Checker, they, first of all, those group of people,

44:41 they are mainly for testing those candidate missions or whatever, candidate

44:47 puzzles.

44:47 Yes.

44:48 And almost all the time they can propose some changes.

44:52 The mission definition, puzzle definition is wrong, or maybe some tests are missed,

44:58 or whatever.

45:00 There are some various, so they are starting to discuss.

45:04 those mission after, he is taking part in the mission discussion, and after

45:10 this, we have pretty solid mission.

45:13 After that, our team member can improve this mission as well.

45:18 For instance, we can add some animation part in this part, or try it panel,

45:23 or maybe our designers want to create illustration for this mission.

45:27 So, we also take part in the mission creation.

45:31 And after that, we put this mission on the island.

45:34 And if you subscribe on Checker newsletter, you will get in use that we have

45:44 some new missions coming out, and you can be the first one who tried and played

45:49 this mission.

45:50 That's awesome.

45:51 Yeah, very cool.

45:52 I love it.

45:52 That sounds really great.

45:53 And I like that you add illustrations and stuff and kind of make it feel

45:58 more part of the thing once they add it.

46:00 Thanks.

46:00 We have very cool and very passionate designers team.

46:04 Yeah, the designers definitely are doing nice work there.

46:07 Like I said, the overall view of the islands is just totally beautiful.

46:12 It's great.

46:13 So, I want to touch on two things really quickly before we, maybe three,

46:18 before we call it a show.

46:20 So, one of the ones I wanted to ask you about is you said there's something like

46:25 a Czech IO classroom or something like that.

46:28 What's the story there?

46:29 Yeah, as I mentioned before, there are a lot of universities and some classes

46:35 and teachers who are using Czech IO as an additional material.

46:39 So, you know, guys, just take this site and you use whatever you want to use

46:45 and just improve your skills there.

46:48 so, we want to help those teachers in their class.

46:54 We give them an additional functionality.

46:57 We give them more hands-on on Czech IO.

47:00 So, if you are a teacher who is actually teaching class, you can put all

47:06 your students in Czech IO and they will be in some group.

47:08 And while they explore in the world, while they're solving puzzles, they can

47:14 interact with each other.

47:15 So, those activity pages that you saw, the whole activity become the class

47:20 activity and you see activity of each class member.

47:24 If you solve some puzzle, first you see solution of your classmates and then

47:30 you can go and check solution of other Czech users.

47:33 And what else we have?

47:36 We have this progress page.

47:39 So, in this progress page you can actually in one page you can see all the

47:45 missions that your class solved and all the students and you can see all

47:49 the intersections who solved each mission and you can go and see solutions

47:53 that were shared by this particular person.

47:56 So, what actually Classroom is doing is just give some, we don't want to

48:01 change checker for classrooms but we want to give more power to teachers

48:08 so they can keep their class together.

48:11 Yeah, that's really nice and if you go into one of the pages like your profile page

48:15 that has a footer there's a class manager at the bottom and it looks really

48:19 easy.

48:20 So, let me give you a few scenarios and you tell me if this makes sense is

48:24 one one thing I could do is I could create a class and the class could be

48:29 talk Python listeners and everyone who listens to the podcast could they

48:33 be in a class and go through it together and share ideas as a group?

48:37 Yes, yes.

48:39 So, if you are creating a class you have two options.

48:41 First option you can simply put all the emails that you think you want to

48:46 add in this class in the specific text field and then put some messages out

48:51 there and just send it out.

48:53 This is the first option.

48:54 And the second option you can just provide you with the link and this link

49:01 has a page of your class and some button below that actually tells I want

49:10 to join to this class.

49:11 The only thing that you should done after join you as a class creator should

49:16 go and approve this joining right?

49:19 I see.

49:19 And after that you can have the whole class just for your podcast listeners.

49:25 Okay.

49:26 Cool.

49:26 Yeah.

49:27 Also like for some of my online courses maybe I'll see if I can create a class.

49:31 I'll look into it.

49:32 That's very cool.

49:32 Thanks.

49:33 Yeah.

49:33 I will create additional video tutorial that I will explain all the features

49:38 and I will share it and check out so you can go there and see how exactly

49:43 it works and how you can use it.

49:45 Okay.

49:45 Excellent.

49:45 Yeah.

49:46 And I'll try to link to that if the timing lines up.

49:48 Cool.

49:49 So that's one thing I wanted to cover.

49:51 The other is can you give us a look behind the scenes at the technology involved?

49:55 Like are you using Django?

49:57 Are you using Docker?

49:58 Like how's Python in the backend working?

50:00 Like those kinds of things.

50:02 Yeah.

50:02 I would love to.

50:03 So we are using Django for web part.

50:08 Also for running coding solutions, running user solutions.

50:12 We're using Twisted and we're using Docker.

50:15 So every mission is covered in Docker container and running in the Docker

50:25 container.

50:25 And all these runs and all those runnings are actually managed by Twisted

50:33 server.

50:34 And that's cool.

50:35 Is that also for Empire of Code?

50:38 Yeah.

50:39 The same kind of things actually working for Empire of Code but we make it a little

50:45 bit different for Empire of Code.

50:47 We actually every mission is actually Docker container and for every mission we

50:53 have somehow prepared the Docker container before the run.

50:57 And it's actually a little bit more efficient.

51:01 I'm not sure.

51:02 I think this part may be too much detail.

51:04 Yeah.

51:05 We don't have to go into too much of the details but I saw it will take a few

51:09 moments for us to deploy your army to this asteroid.

51:13 I'm thinking oh is that a Docker container because it's running your code strategy

51:17 and stuff like that.

51:18 yeah we had a lot of complaints from why don't you show me progressively

51:25 how my army is going.

51:26 Yeah we are actually running all the code and then show you the result.

51:31 Yeah cool.

51:33 Awesome.

51:34 All right well we're getting pretty much out of time so I think maybe we'll leave

51:38 it there.

51:38 But Alex this has been a super interesting look where Check.io came from and where

51:44 it's going.

51:44 So thanks for that.

51:46 Thank you.

51:46 Thank you for inviting me here.

51:47 It was great.

51:48 It was a big pleasure for me to share all the ideas.

51:52 You're welcome.

51:52 Now before I let you go I have two questions I always ask my guests.

51:55 The first one is I just checked there are if I look at pypi.io which is the

52:01 shiny new Python package index.

52:04 It's still it says it's in beta but the backing data store is the production data

52:08 store so you might as well use the pretty one.

52:10 If you look there there's 88,000 plus packages today which is amazing.

52:16 It's so amazing right?

52:17 And of those there's tons that you're exposed to that people maybe don't know about.

52:22 Is there a favorite one you're like hey everyone should know about this but they

52:25 probably haven't heard of it.

52:25 I think everybody heard about Django so I think this is my favorite package

52:30 that I'm using a lot so yeah Django is one of my favorite and I don't have any

52:36 fancy one that I think everybody should use.

52:39 Yeah all right so Django check it out very cool.

52:41 And if you're going to write Python code and it's not in your online editor

52:45 what what editor do you open up?

52:47 I'm using PyCharm.

52:48 This is definitely one of my favorite code editor.

52:51 Yeah I love PyCharm too.

52:53 I use it for almost all my Python work and it's one of those things that you

52:58 kind of have to take a moment and learn but as you learn more features they add up you're

53:02 just like okay I have to use this thing.

53:03 It's very cool and I think it's awesome that they're partnering with you so well

53:08 done JetBrains guys.

53:08 That's great.

53:09 Yeah thanks.

53:10 All right Alex it's been a fun conversation.

53:13 thanks for being on the show.

53:13 Thanks for having me here.

53:15 You bet.

53:15 Bye-bye.

53:16 Bye.

53:16 This has been another episode of Talk Python to Me.

53:20 Today's guest has been Alexander Leibach and this episode has been sponsored by Hired

53:25 and SnapCI.

53:26 Thank you both for supporting the show.

53:28 Hired wants to help you find your next big thing.

53:31 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python to me to get five or more offers with salary and equity

53:36 presented right up front and a special listener signing bonus of $2,000.

53:39 SnapCI is modern, continuous integration and delivery.

53:44 Build, test, and deploy your code directly from GitHub all in your browser with

53:48 debugging, Docker, and parallels included.

53:50 Try them for free at snap.ci slash talkpython.

53:53 Are you or a colleague trying to learn Python?

53:56 Have you tried books and videos that just left you bored by covering topics point

54:00 by point?

54:00 Well check out my online course Python Jumpstart by building 10 apps at talkpython.fm slash

54:06 course to experience a more engaging way to learn Python.

54:10 And if you're looking for something a little more advanced, try my Write Pythonic code

54:13 course at talkpython.fm/pythonic.

54:16 You can find the links from this episode at talkpython.fm/episodes slash

54:22 show slash 75.

54:24 Be sure to subscribe to the show.

54:26 Open your favorite podcatcher and search for Python.

54:29 We should be right at the top.

54:30 You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, Google Play feed at /play, and

54:36 direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm.

54:39 Our theme music is Developers, Developers, Developers by Corey Smith, who goes by

54:44 Smix.

54:44 Corey just recently started selling his tracks on iTunes, so I recommend you check it

54:48 out at talkpython.fm/music.

54:51 You can browse his tracks he has for sale on iTunes and listen to the full-length version

54:55 of the theme song.

54:56 This is your host, Michael Kennedy.

54:58 Thanks so much for listening.

55:00 I really appreciate it.

55:01 Smix, let's get out of here.

55:04 Staying with my voice.

55:05 There's no norm that I can feel within.

55:07 Haven't been sleeping.

55:08 I've been using lots of rest.

55:10 I'll pass the mic back to who rocked his best.

55:13 Developers.

55:16 Developers.

55:17 Developers.

55:18 Developers.

55:19 Developers.

55:20 Developers.

55:21 Developers.

55:21 Developers.

55:22 Well, first developers, developers, developers.

55:25 We'll be right back.

55:25 Thank you.