WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:07.060 What happens when you take a tech-driven online fashion company that's experiencing explosive growth and infuse it with a deep open-source mission? 00:00:07.060 --> 00:00:10.200 Well, you'll find out on this episode of Talk Python To Me. 00:00:10.200 --> 00:00:17.780 We'll meet Lori Apple and Rafael Carricio from Zalando, where developers there have published almost 200 open-source projects on GitHub. 00:00:17.780 --> 00:00:47.760 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the ecosystem. 00:00:47.760 --> 00:00:53.160 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. Follow me on Twitter, where I'm @mkennedy. 00:00:53.160 --> 00:00:59.640 Keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm, and follow the show on Twitter via at Talk Python. 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:03.640 This episode is brought to you by Hired and SnapCI. 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:10.360 Thank them for supporting the show on Twitter via at Hired underscore HQ and at Snap underscore CI. 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:15.580 Hey, everyone. Last episode, I told you about my crazy student reward for the Kickstarter. 00:01:15.580 --> 00:01:19.620 Well, it turns out that Kickstarter is not super keen on us doing that. 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:26.200 I don't think we were violating the spirit of the rules, but we were actually violating the letter of the Kickstarter rules of conduct. 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:28.380 So sadly, we'll have to pull back that cool offer. 00:01:28.380 --> 00:01:31.280 However, I'm replacing it with something that might even be better. 00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:34.920 Instead of funding some of the businesses that successfully launch out of the course, 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:39.940 we'll have a special Talk Python To Me episode featuring and looking inside a couple of them. 00:01:39.940 --> 00:01:42.000 Keep an eye out for that in six months or so. 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.880 Now, let's talk about fashionable open source code. 00:01:44.880 --> 00:01:47.520 Lori, Raphael, welcome to the show. 00:01:47.520 --> 00:01:48.200 Thanks. 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:48.900 Thanks. 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:49.400 It's good to be here. 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:52.820 Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you guys about what's going on in Zalando. 00:01:52.820 --> 00:01:58.060 It seems like you're doing a lot of cool Python things, and I think it'll be a fun story for the audience. 00:01:58.060 --> 00:01:59.240 Yeah, I hope so. 00:01:59.240 --> 00:02:00.360 Yeah, definitely. 00:02:00.360 --> 00:02:03.520 All right, so both of you guys on the show. 00:02:03.520 --> 00:02:07.520 So let's get started by talking about your background a little bit. 00:02:07.620 --> 00:02:09.480 How did you get into software? 00:02:09.480 --> 00:02:10.880 Lori, you want to go first? 00:02:10.880 --> 00:02:11.420 Sure. 00:02:11.420 --> 00:02:15.260 My name is Lori Apple, and I'm the open source evangelist in Zalando. 00:02:15.260 --> 00:02:20.100 And I came into technology after law school. 00:02:20.100 --> 00:02:22.480 So my background is not really in programming. 00:02:22.480 --> 00:02:23.740 It's more in journalism. 00:02:23.740 --> 00:02:25.200 I did some PR. 00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:27.900 I also studied law. 00:02:28.040 --> 00:02:32.740 And so right after law school, I started working in tech companies on and off. 00:02:32.740 --> 00:02:39.200 And then in 2012, I started working at Gilt and became their technology evangelist. 00:02:39.200 --> 00:02:50.620 So I was going to lots of meetups and running the tech blog and social media and working with developers to talk about what we were doing with engineering, with product, with UX. 00:02:50.820 --> 00:02:55.000 And then I came to Zalando 2015, so last February. 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:57.820 And first I was doing technology evangelism. 00:02:57.820 --> 00:03:06.820 And then my job kind of morphed into just focusing on the open source evangelism because we have so much work going on in the open source scene. 00:03:06.820 --> 00:03:10.820 If you look at our dashboard, we have almost 200 projects. 00:03:10.820 --> 00:03:13.300 And so there's lots to maintain. 00:03:13.300 --> 00:03:16.800 And I'm also managing agile project managing a team. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.060 So I guess I have two jobs here. 00:03:19.540 --> 00:03:20.580 Yeah, that sounds really fun. 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:22.420 And you guys do have a lot going on. 00:03:22.420 --> 00:03:25.260 We'll talk about some of your open source projects. 00:03:25.260 --> 00:03:29.240 But, yeah, you pull that up and it's quite a list of stuff there. 00:03:29.240 --> 00:03:30.900 Yeah, and there used to be a lot more. 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:33.500 But I will talk about why there isn't that much. 00:03:33.500 --> 00:03:34.020 Oh, interesting. 00:03:34.020 --> 00:03:34.460 Okay. 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:35.620 Yeah, cool. 00:03:35.620 --> 00:03:35.940 Yeah. 00:03:35.940 --> 00:03:46.040 And I think software developer evangelist or even more specialized, open source evangelist, I think that's such a fun sounding job. 00:03:46.040 --> 00:03:48.900 It's never been a job I've had, but I've known some people who've done it. 00:03:48.980 --> 00:03:52.700 And it seems like you get some of the best part of the tech community, right? 00:03:52.700 --> 00:03:56.900 You get to bring people together to have fun, to talk about the cool, exciting stuff they're doing. 00:03:56.900 --> 00:03:57.500 That's great. 00:03:57.500 --> 00:03:59.020 Yeah, I mean, you link people together. 00:03:59.500 --> 00:04:04.820 And what I like about open source evangelism is I get to focus on code and working with engineers. 00:04:04.820 --> 00:04:12.500 And I love products and UX and even other aspects of technology evangelism. 00:04:12.500 --> 00:04:19.720 But really working with the engineers and getting them to think of their code and their projects as products is really fun. 00:04:20.540 --> 00:04:21.380 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:04:21.380 --> 00:04:23.000 Raphael, how about you? 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:23.800 What's your story? 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:27.800 So I started playing with computers like around 2000. 00:04:28.740 --> 00:04:35.540 But I only started like real programming in 2005 when I started my university. 00:04:35.540 --> 00:04:43.400 I don't know why I didn't go into programming before because I was playing with Linux since 2002. 00:04:43.740 --> 00:04:48.300 But I was mostly like fascinated about web. 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:51.260 And I discovered that everything was HTML. 00:04:51.260 --> 00:04:53.320 So I started like learning about that. 00:04:53.320 --> 00:04:56.000 But I don't count that as programming. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:02.400 But I started programming, like programming things that were really fun in 2005. 00:05:03.080 --> 00:05:12.800 Maybe because I thought before that programming was some kind of magic thing that you needed to have someone that like to teach you, dedicated to that. 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:13.620 That's really interesting. 00:05:13.620 --> 00:05:27.520 I always felt like before I got into programming, that programming was like this special art that you had to have four years of university or six years of university to really be able to do. 00:05:27.520 --> 00:05:30.540 It just seemed so unattainable to me in the beginning. 00:05:30.540 --> 00:05:32.440 But then it turns out it wasn't, right? 00:05:33.080 --> 00:05:33.960 Yeah, it's a growing story. 00:05:33.960 --> 00:05:34.460 Yeah. 00:05:34.460 --> 00:05:34.800 Yeah. 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:46.520 I thought that I needed someone and I didn't have anyone in my family or I didn't have any friends that were like into programming or into computers as much as I was. 00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:51.640 So I just was doing my stuff myself and reading blogs online and things. 00:05:51.640 --> 00:05:55.040 So but when I started programming, I got really excited. 00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:00.220 And like in the first two weeks, I was learning Pascal at that time. 00:06:00.220 --> 00:06:03.840 And the first two weeks, I just wrote this poem in the console. 00:06:03.840 --> 00:06:06.680 My professor was really impressed and it was really cool. 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:11.880 Since then, I just got crazy and I really liked everything that I was learning. 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:19.400 And then I had to find a job quickly because my parents didn't have money to pay for my university in Brazil. 00:06:19.400 --> 00:06:21.320 So yeah, I'm from Brazil. 00:06:21.320 --> 00:06:25.480 And then I found a job in the first year of university. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:31.740 And I was working with Java at that time because in my hometown is not a big city. 00:06:31.740 --> 00:06:35.180 So I had only like job positions in Java. 00:06:35.700 --> 00:06:40.020 And then in 2007, I discovered Python. 00:06:40.020 --> 00:06:47.920 I was just looking for like a easier or more like concise way of writing code. 00:06:47.920 --> 00:06:50.400 And then I found Python. 00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:51.540 I was really happy. 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:53.100 Like I really like it. 00:06:53.100 --> 00:07:00.460 I found it strange like this spacing and like indentation to define blocks in Python. 00:07:00.460 --> 00:07:04.140 But then I just got over it and I really like Python. 00:07:04.260 --> 00:07:08.080 I started loving it, but I couldn't work with that professionally at the time. 00:07:08.080 --> 00:07:12.980 And then in 2009, I had the opportunity to like create my own company. 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:15.900 Someone just contacted me and said, hey, I have this idea. 00:07:15.900 --> 00:07:18.520 Do you want to work with this with me? 00:07:18.520 --> 00:07:19.680 And then I said, okay, yeah. 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:24.060 And I started to work with Python for web development used in Django. 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:25.480 And it was really cool. 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:29.500 And since then, I just mostly have been working with Python. 00:07:29.500 --> 00:07:32.460 I worked with Ruby for like two years recently. 00:07:32.900 --> 00:07:38.760 But it was just an adventure like in another language to get to know more about different 00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:39.360 communities. 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.300 But I really like Python. 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:43.480 And I decided to like get back to Python. 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:45.140 And this year, I joined Zalando. 00:07:45.140 --> 00:07:47.620 And I started working with Python again. 00:07:47.620 --> 00:07:48.920 And I really like it. 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:49.340 Oh, yeah. 00:07:49.340 --> 00:07:50.140 That's a cool story. 00:07:50.380 --> 00:07:54.460 I think a lot of people get freaked out by the white space, the significant white space 00:07:54.460 --> 00:07:55.340 and the indentation. 00:07:55.340 --> 00:07:58.240 You're like, you know, especially if you come from a... 00:07:58.240 --> 00:07:58.720 Just two up. 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.100 It's totally a... 00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:02.840 It's a different way of thinking, right? 00:08:02.900 --> 00:08:08.200 Normally, you're used to other languages, C languages, JavaScript-y languages that have 00:08:08.200 --> 00:08:15.460 curly braces and semicolons and all this formality in the language that's extra symbols in the 00:08:15.460 --> 00:08:16.160 language, I guess. 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.140 And they just seem required when you learn programming. 00:08:19.140 --> 00:08:23.940 But then if you go and learn Python, if you learn Python first, I suspect it's different. 00:08:24.080 --> 00:08:28.140 But if you go and then learn Python, you're like, well, how can it work without all these 00:08:28.140 --> 00:08:29.380 support symbols? 00:08:29.380 --> 00:08:31.540 But it takes about a day. 00:08:31.540 --> 00:08:33.020 And then you're like, I don't miss those anymore. 00:08:33.020 --> 00:08:33.920 Yeah. 00:08:33.920 --> 00:08:39.280 I think I started understanding more when I started like getting into parsers and writing, 00:08:39.280 --> 00:08:41.600 like trying to write compilers and things. 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:42.620 I really like this. 00:08:42.620 --> 00:08:45.740 Like language, like creation things. 00:08:45.740 --> 00:08:52.680 And then after I got some experience, I studied that in university and I started doing some work 00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:54.060 myself on that. 00:08:54.060 --> 00:08:58.900 I discovered like, OK, yeah, you can just like space to define blocks. 00:08:58.900 --> 00:09:00.600 And it's not that hard. 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.980 And then I understood fully in this Python thing. 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:05.460 And it's actually better now. 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:12.440 I feel like it's good that you can just write less and have more power when you write something. 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:13.880 That's why I like it, too. 00:09:13.880 --> 00:09:18.480 I mean, I've done coding in Python, especially with Django Girls. 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:20.720 They've got great workshops. 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:21.940 Yeah, Django Girls are great. 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:22.480 Yeah. 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:27.220 So I did their weekend make a blog from scratch. 00:09:27.220 --> 00:09:27.960 Oh, nice. 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:29.920 And it was really, really quite fun. 00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:35.520 But I think for somebody who likes to be sparse with language, it's great. 00:09:35.520 --> 00:09:43.300 And also, I think, I don't know if anybody has ever done a talk or a paper on like the white space of Python, 00:09:43.640 --> 00:09:48.640 like what it means philosophically, because there's nothing there, but there's everything there. 00:09:48.640 --> 00:09:53.200 You know, I'm sure like somebody could have a lot of fun with something going on. 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:57.580 Yeah, that would be a cool, like, language philosophy talk. 00:09:57.580 --> 00:09:58.560 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:09:58.560 --> 00:09:58.660 Yeah. 00:09:58.660 --> 00:10:03.940 Free conference talk idea for anyone who wants to pursue it. 00:10:03.940 --> 00:10:04.680 There you go. 00:10:05.640 --> 00:10:08.820 Yeah, I think there is a lot of things online about that. 00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:09.220 Yeah. 00:10:09.220 --> 00:10:09.760 I'm not sure. 00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.960 But I'm sure I read things about that. 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:14.460 Nice. 00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:14.740 Yeah. 00:10:14.740 --> 00:10:16.260 Many people have the same practice. 00:10:16.260 --> 00:10:17.560 They have the same experience. 00:10:17.560 --> 00:10:18.040 Yeah, that's cool. 00:10:18.560 --> 00:10:20.680 I think, you know, you said Django Girls. 00:10:20.680 --> 00:10:29.400 And I think one of the things that's special about Python and open source is the community is just so supportive and enthusiastic. 00:10:29.400 --> 00:10:30.160 Mm-hmm. 00:10:30.160 --> 00:10:31.320 It's huge. 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:37.140 I remember I had a PC once, and I had to download all of these little components, like Sigwin. 00:10:37.140 --> 00:10:40.080 And it was just, you know, on a Mac, it's so simple. 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:45.060 And then my computer was old and screwed up, and I brought it to this meetup. 00:10:45.760 --> 00:10:58.980 And this poor guy, he sat there for like half an hour, 45 minutes, and basically was just trying to help me download every little crumb to get us closer to home. 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:01.400 We didn't actually get there, but it got far. 00:11:01.400 --> 00:11:02.800 That's too bad. 00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:06.620 It was a piece of crap computer. 00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:12.440 It's been really hard on Windows traditionally to do Python, but it's getting better, actually. 00:11:12.800 --> 00:11:18.840 You know, the guy's one of the Python core developers, Steve Dowers, works at Microsoft, and he's reworking. 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:23.460 He reworked, I think it's probably a continuing project, the installer. 00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:25.660 So things install a lot better at work. 00:11:25.660 --> 00:11:28.680 And so it's a better story these days. 00:11:28.680 --> 00:11:29.860 But, yeah, it's still tough. 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:33.660 So let's talk about Zalando a little bit, just the background of it. 00:11:33.660 --> 00:11:36.000 So a lot of people probably haven't heard of it. 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:36.820 What is Zalando? 00:11:36.820 --> 00:11:39.280 Yeah, so a lot of people in Europe have heard of it. 00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:42.120 But as an American, you're American too. 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:49.200 Yeah, I didn't know about the company until my former colleague had started working here as the VP of engineering. 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.780 So he's basically the head of engineering for the company. 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:56.800 So Zalando is Europe's leading fashion platform. 00:11:56.800 --> 00:11:59.860 And so it's in 15 countries in Europe. 00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:02.520 Just today we got new figures. 00:12:02.520 --> 00:12:08.400 So we have now more than 19 million active users, more than 11,000 employees. 00:12:08.400 --> 00:12:11.540 So about 1,300 plus are tech. 00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.400 And we're based in Berlin. 00:12:14.400 --> 00:12:16.320 We have tech hubs. 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:21.120 This is just for tech, not just the whole company, but for the department. 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:27.400 We have tech hubs in Dublin, Helsinki, a couple other German cities. 00:12:27.400 --> 00:12:31.520 So the company has been growing like crazy. 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:34.760 When I got here, the tech team was maybe 650. 00:12:34.760 --> 00:12:36.800 So that was just 18 months ago. 00:12:36.800 --> 00:12:37.160 Wow. 00:12:37.160 --> 00:12:38.840 So it's almost doubled, huh? 00:12:39.020 --> 00:12:42.380 Yeah, and we didn't have a Dublin office or a Helsinki office. 00:12:42.380 --> 00:12:48.840 We've acquired a couple of companies to build ourselves out as a platform for real. 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:57.520 So we have ad tech happening now and lots of content features coming up. 00:12:57.520 --> 00:12:59.440 I mean, it's quite a... 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:00.160 That's really cool. 00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:01.460 Yeah, that's quite a powerhouse. 00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:09.000 So you guys, your major product is sort of online fashion stuff, right? 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:13.580 So if I want to buy clothes or like a cool suit or slacks or something like that? 00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:14.700 Right. 00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:18.960 So we work with all of the major brands you're familiar with. 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.200 Any household fashion brand, you're probably going to find it on our website. 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.920 And we went public two years ago too. 00:13:26.920 --> 00:13:29.560 So that was a nice success. 00:13:29.880 --> 00:13:30.860 Yeah, that's cool. 00:13:30.860 --> 00:13:31.560 That's really cool. 00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:39.660 So is it a technical challenge, both the software development side and carrying this open source 00:13:39.660 --> 00:13:44.060 message when you guys are growing so fast and acquiring other companies that maybe have 00:13:44.060 --> 00:13:44.740 different approaches? 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:45.620 Oh, sure. 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:46.560 And if you think about... 00:13:46.560 --> 00:13:50.560 We're very international in our tech team as well. 00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:57.940 So you have lots of different interpretations of how a tech team should work and what agile 00:13:57.940 --> 00:13:58.900 is. 00:13:58.900 --> 00:14:02.640 And some of our engineers, they've never really worked in an agile environment. 00:14:02.640 --> 00:14:08.220 And so when you're growing that fast and you're trying to scale so quickly and work in an agile 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.040 way, it's very interesting. 00:14:10.040 --> 00:14:12.800 This company was not always agile. 00:14:13.040 --> 00:14:16.460 There was a shift last spring. 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:20.560 So spring 2015 towards this mindset called radical agility. 00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:26.660 And this is where we officially introduced autonomous teams and mastery and purpose. 00:14:26.660 --> 00:14:33.720 So the pillars are based on Daniel Pink's drive, which was where autonomy, mastery and purpose 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:34.220 comes from. 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:37.220 Daniel Pink has a really cool book and way of thinking. 00:14:37.220 --> 00:14:44.540 So we basically adopted that and revamped the tech organization. 00:14:44.540 --> 00:14:49.380 I mean, some teams had already been working in this fashion, but not department wide. 00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:52.000 And so we said, OK, teams, you're autonomous. 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:57.360 And then now you're also going to have twice as many teams within 18 months. 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:58.280 And we're still growing. 00:14:58.280 --> 00:15:03.520 So, yeah, there's all kinds of interesting learnings and experiences that you get when you 00:15:03.520 --> 00:15:07.020 when you subject yourself to something so courageous. 00:15:07.020 --> 00:15:13.080 It really is courageous for the tech leadership to take such a change on because you just don't 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:13.720 do it overnight. 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:18.600 You know, when I heard the first time about Zalando, it was just a website where you could 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.140 buy clothes and stuff. 00:15:20.140 --> 00:15:24.960 And many people here still have this idea that Zalando is just, oh, it's just a shop. 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:26.580 It's just a shop online, a website. 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:32.480 But when I got here, I discovered that there is much more than just a website, a shop where 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.580 you can buy things like Zalando have the Datware warehouse, like where they store all the 00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:43.120 clothing, take pictures of every article, like every piece of clothing and to put in the 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.660 website, tweet the photos. 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:51.200 So there is a lot of things that happen behind the scenes to this website to work. 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:58.380 And all of this is developed in-house, like the technology for all these levels, let's say. 00:15:58.380 --> 00:16:03.840 And then when I started here, I discovered that and I was like, whoa, yeah, there is a lot 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:04.400 to do here. 00:16:04.400 --> 00:16:05.160 Yeah. 00:16:05.160 --> 00:16:06.120 It's not just a website. 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:07.080 Yeah, that's really cool. 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:12.240 You guys have the whole sort of web property of a bunch of API things going on. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.280 You have some machine learning. 00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:16.560 We're going to dig into all those things in time. 00:16:16.560 --> 00:16:19.240 But yeah, there's definitely a bunch of cool stuff happening there. 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:24.800 Laura, you talked about what you do at Zalando with the open source evangelists and project 00:16:24.800 --> 00:16:26.580 management and stuff like that. 00:16:26.580 --> 00:16:28.180 Raphael, how about you? 00:16:28.180 --> 00:16:29.160 What are you working on there? 00:16:29.160 --> 00:16:29.520 Yeah. 00:16:29.520 --> 00:16:32.800 So I currently work at the continuous delivery team. 00:16:32.800 --> 00:16:38.140 So my team, there is like three sub teams in the team I work. 00:16:38.140 --> 00:16:45.720 But basically, we maintain the continuous deployment for other things, like tools around that and 00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:46.280 jenks. 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:54.080 So each team have Jenkins instance to run tests and like deployment jobs. 00:16:54.080 --> 00:17:03.460 So currently working, like creating these tools to enable teams to deploy easier, like and automatic. 00:17:03.460 --> 00:17:09.380 So they don't need to manually go to the machine, like SSH to the machine to make a deploy or anything 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:09.840 like that. 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:11.580 So we just use some tools. 00:17:11.580 --> 00:17:18.540 So we have some open source tools like Senza and like all the things that we use to deploy. 00:17:18.540 --> 00:17:26.460 And I also work in some open source projects at Zalando that support like that we use to create 00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:27.040 those tools. 00:17:27.040 --> 00:17:30.680 So connection is one of those projects. 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:31.800 Yeah. 00:17:31.900 --> 00:17:34.040 And basically, that's what I do. 00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:36.000 I develop software here. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.480 And I also support teams also in like helping them. 00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:40.300 Like they come to me. 00:17:40.300 --> 00:17:42.900 They sit next to me and say, hey, Raphael, I cannot deploy. 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:44.100 Like there's a problem here. 00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:48.900 And I see if it's a bug or if he just missed using the tool. 00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:49.640 Sure. 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:51.320 Oh, that's really cool. 00:17:51.320 --> 00:17:56.200 And I saw that you guys are using a lot of interesting container technologies. 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.940 So are you using Docker? 00:17:58.940 --> 00:18:00.580 Yes. 00:18:00.580 --> 00:18:01.700 Yes. 00:18:01.700 --> 00:18:08.520 Basically, like our applications that we deploy in production, like we use AWS CloudFormation 00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:09.000 API. 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:17.080 And like we have infrastructure around AWS, which is called Stubs platform. 00:18:17.080 --> 00:18:19.160 It's completely open source. 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.620 Like there's many applications that work together for deployment. 00:18:22.620 --> 00:18:30.080 And yeah, we use Docker as a packaging format for the applications that we have. 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:37.420 And then we have like our one Docker repository, which is P1. 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:44.400 So we push the image there. 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:51.440 And we use AWS CloudFormation API to like create the whole stack of the application. 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.840 Like the whole stack when we release a new version of the application. 00:18:56.080 --> 00:18:58.600 And then we just switch the traffic to this new stack. 00:18:58.600 --> 00:18:59.600 So yeah. 00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:00.340 So yeah. 00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:03.220 And there is other tools to access the machine. 00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:05.600 And everything is logged. 00:19:06.460 --> 00:19:13.200 So you know, like, you know, like, who accesses which machine for what and which time, in what time. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:19.620 And this is very important for traceability and for compliance here in Europe. 00:19:19.620 --> 00:19:19.980 Yeah. 00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.560 Of course. 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.400 How many different systems do you have running in AWS? 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:25.580 It must be a ton, right? 00:19:25.580 --> 00:19:27.040 Yeah. 00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:28.040 There is a lot. 00:19:28.820 --> 00:19:29.960 I don't even know. 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:30.360 Yeah. 00:19:30.360 --> 00:19:31.640 How do you guys keep track of that? 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.120 Each team have their one AWS account. 00:19:34.120 --> 00:19:44.980 And we have one service that like in this Stops platform, we have one service that crawls like all the APIs that we have. 00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:56.980 Because like all applications, they are registered in one application that like one of the applications of Stops that manage the other applications, let's say, is called Heal. 00:19:56.980 --> 00:19:57.160 Yeah. 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.400 So you've got like an app to manage your apps. 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:00.240 Okay. 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.600 That seems pretty standard in Docker though, right? 00:20:02.600 --> 00:20:04.520 Because it's hard to know what is where. 00:20:04.520 --> 00:20:05.040 Yeah. 00:20:05.040 --> 00:20:05.320 Yeah. 00:20:05.320 --> 00:20:09.540 So here we have like a central point where we register all applications. 00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:21.840 So from that, you get access, like your application can get credentials to access Amazon and to access other applications endpoints using OAuth 2. 00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:28.380 And also these applications manage the versions for like the new versions of each application. 00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:35.920 And there is another tool that crawls all the endpoints that are resisting this queue. 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:37.940 That's the name of the application where we register. 00:20:38.380 --> 00:20:43.900 So basically you can make an API call to this crawler. 00:20:43.900 --> 00:20:48.440 And yeah, it will list to like all endpoints that we have. 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:49.260 I see. 00:20:49.260 --> 00:20:51.680 So it does kind of like a service discovery thing for you. 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.800 So you might start by saying, I want to talk to the credit card service. 00:20:55.800 --> 00:20:56.700 Where is it? 00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:57.420 Oh, it's over here. 00:20:57.420 --> 00:20:57.660 Okay. 00:20:57.660 --> 00:21:00.740 And then you go make a secondary call to that, something like this? 00:21:00.860 --> 00:21:01.140 Yes. 00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:09.980 And we use like, we make extensive use of Swagger, open API definitions for every application. 00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:14.440 We create like every application that use, that we have APIs for that. 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:19.580 And all the definitions, like the Swagger definitions, they are like in an open endpoint. 00:21:19.580 --> 00:21:29.520 So we can describe like and know what API is waiting, like call or like what are the parameters and everything. 00:21:29.520 --> 00:21:34.680 And we have also a bunch of tools around Swagger and connection. 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.180 It's one of these tools. 00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:36.620 Yeah. 00:21:36.620 --> 00:21:41.820 And this thing, Stoops, if you go, it's stups.io. 00:21:41.820 --> 00:21:45.420 And a lot of the components there are made out of Python. 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:51.760 Like Raphael's team is currently working on Senzo, which is part of the Stoops ecosystem. 00:21:51.760 --> 00:21:57.220 They have this project called Lizzie that also is like works with Stoops. 00:21:57.220 --> 00:21:59.920 Raphael can explain it better for you. 00:21:59.920 --> 00:22:04.820 But a lot of that is Python, but also Java. 00:22:04.820 --> 00:22:06.180 And there's some closure, but. 00:22:06.180 --> 00:22:06.640 Yeah. 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:12.940 Everything that I'm talking about here is in this Stoops.io and everything is open source. 00:22:12.940 --> 00:22:15.700 So you can just find it online. 00:22:15.700 --> 00:22:16.780 The documentation is online. 00:22:16.780 --> 00:22:17.880 Oh, that's really cool. 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:18.120 Yeah. 00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:19.500 And it's really well documented. 00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:27.000 And it looks like it's really built to manage this type of set of applications within AWS. 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:27.840 Right. 00:22:27.840 --> 00:22:34.640 Like it's built on cloud formation and cloud trail and all those different types of things. 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:34.920 Right. 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:35.320 Yeah. 00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:36.180 And they're built. 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:38.340 They're based around making. 00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:43.960 So the idea of autonomy, right, is factored into the way that Stoops is architected. 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:50.240 So if you have every team with their own AWS account, then Stoops helps those teams. 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:50.720 Okay. 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:51.300 Yeah. 00:22:51.300 --> 00:22:52.420 Work autonomously. 00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:59.940 But also helps us to consolidate a lot of this information flying around with all the different applications. 00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:08.960 And then if there is some sort of violation, Stoops has a mechanism for helping us report those and track them so that teams can fix. 00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:09.680 Okay. 00:23:10.100 --> 00:23:10.280 Yeah. 00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:12.940 It's a way of managing what the teams are doing. 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:24.120 Like we have this full stop application that checks the cloud trail of the AWS accounts and then verify if each team is like following the rules. 00:23:24.120 --> 00:23:26.620 We have like rules of play here at Zalando. 00:23:26.620 --> 00:23:33.040 We have to follow these rules, like basically rules like of software development, like some best practices. 00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:42.740 And some of these practices are verified using this tool full stop automatically and it generates violations for the team. 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:48.900 So it's like an alert and the team knows like, oh, I forgot to create a new version for this application. 00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:54.300 Or I forgot to like enable the swagger definition and point in my application or something. 00:23:54.300 --> 00:23:56.680 So it's really useful. 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.900 And then it gets reported to your turn, which is like this fun. 00:24:00.900 --> 00:24:04.860 And you can go and search for your violations by your team. 00:24:04.860 --> 00:24:05.560 I see. 00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:05.820 Wow. 00:24:05.820 --> 00:24:06.880 This is really fascinating. 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.900 That's quite a system that you guys have in place there. 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:14.480 And the integration with swagger, which we can talk about in a little bit, is also really nice. 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:19.200 So you can discover it in a meaningful way, not just know that it exists, right? 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:19.700 Yeah. 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:20.200 Yeah. 00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:20.920 Okay. 00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:21.240 Awesome. 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:24.160 I'll definitely link to that in the show notes because that's a cool project. 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:24.860 Mm-hmm. 00:24:24.860 --> 00:24:39.060 This portion of Talk Python is brought to you by Hired. 00:24:39.060 --> 00:24:42.100 Hired is the platform for top Python developer jobs. 00:24:42.100 --> 00:24:46.900 Create your profile and instantly get access to 3,500 companies who will work to compete with you. 00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:49.780 Take it from one of Hired's users who recently got a job and said, 00:24:50.180 --> 00:24:55.060 I had my first offer on Thursday after going live on Monday and I ended up getting eight offers in total. 00:24:55.060 --> 00:24:58.520 I've worked with recruiters in the past, but they've always been pretty hit and miss. 00:24:58.520 --> 00:25:01.360 I tried LinkedIn, but I found Hired to be the best. 00:25:01.360 --> 00:25:03.460 I really like knowing the salary up front. 00:25:03.460 --> 00:25:05.820 Privacy was also a huge seller for me. 00:25:05.820 --> 00:25:07.500 Sounds awesome, doesn't it? 00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:09.520 Well, wait until you hear about the signing bonus. 00:25:09.520 --> 00:25:12.940 Everyone who accepts a job from Hired gets $1,000 signing bonus. 00:25:13.020 --> 00:25:15.620 And as Talk Python listeners, it gets way sweeter. 00:25:15.620 --> 00:25:20.840 Use the link Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me and Hired will double the signing bonus to $2,000. 00:25:20.840 --> 00:25:22.640 Opportunities knocking. 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.400 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me and answer the door. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:35.800 Vivi, Lori, go first on this question. 00:25:35.800 --> 00:25:38.760 What are some of the real technical challenges you guys have at Zalanda? 00:25:38.760 --> 00:25:40.880 Well, I think we talked about the scalability. 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:42.180 So that's one. 00:25:42.740 --> 00:25:47.580 You know, when you're growing a team so quickly and how do you get everybody on board? 00:25:47.580 --> 00:26:03.160 And also, how do you make sure that the team ingredients are right when you're moving so fast so that you have your balance within teams of senior, junior, front end, back end? 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:11.260 I mean, when you're coming from a more command and control background, like a lot of the teams were when radical agility went live, 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:16.580 you're talking about engineers doing a lot of the teams of engineers. 00:26:16.580 --> 00:26:18.700 And so, you know, you're talking about engineers doing a lot of functional tasks and seeing themselves as the back ender. 00:26:19.580 --> 00:26:27.420 So why would I want to talk about the team? 00:26:27.420 --> 00:26:36.260 You know, about API calls and a lot of the team? 00:26:36.260 --> 00:26:40.520 And so, you know, so that's something that we're actually working on more recently. 00:26:40.760 --> 00:26:43.600 We're starting to we've rolled out an intersource pilot. 00:26:43.600 --> 00:26:44.120 So we've rolled out an intersource pilot. 00:26:44.120 --> 00:26:56.640 So not just doing open source for the world, but also internally because we have services and libraries and other stuff that we can't really release publicly. 00:26:57.600 --> 00:27:05.140 Either it's too, too embryonic or it's just really tightly connected to what we're doing and it wouldn't provide much value to the world. 00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:16.560 We used to just kind of release a lot of stuff online, too, which is partly explains why we have less open source on our dashboard than we did because we were kind of releasing stuff. 00:27:16.560 --> 00:27:21.460 Because radical agility was just very exciting for a lot of engineers. 00:27:21.460 --> 00:27:23.520 Like they get to finally like do open source. 00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:25.940 And so they just went to town. 00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:28.640 And now it's sort of like, OK, what is the purpose? 00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:31.600 Bringing that idea of purpose back into the work. 00:27:31.600 --> 00:27:37.840 And so if the purpose is to serve us, you know, we probably should just keep it on GitHub Enterprise and work on it ourselves. 00:27:37.840 --> 00:27:41.080 But, you know, ourselves isn't just our own team. 00:27:41.080 --> 00:27:45.880 It's the other team down the hall and the team in Dublin and the team in Helsinki. 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:53.500 So we're really pushing this idea of inner source so that we can foster more collaboration internally. 00:27:53.500 --> 00:28:02.620 And over time, like you see, we have some repos where one engineer makes 600 commits and the next engineer makes maybe 100. 00:28:02.620 --> 00:28:03.060 Right. 00:28:03.060 --> 00:28:06.100 So there's this team imbalance with inner source. 00:28:06.100 --> 00:28:11.560 If you have more eyes on your work, more people asking questions, maybe making contributions. 00:28:12.460 --> 00:28:22.160 And hopefully over time, you start to see the workload balancing out and the knowledge that comes with making a service or library components starting to get more distributed around the teams. 00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:28.360 So this is a challenge because, you know, some teams are more ready for it than others. 00:28:28.360 --> 00:28:28.700 Right. 00:28:28.700 --> 00:28:35.700 Like, yeah, of course, people don't want anyone to look at their code because maybe they're afraid of being that it's bad. 00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:36.080 Right. 00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:56.940 So another challenge in all of this growth is making sure that you're reinforcing to your developers that they have the right to make mistakes and that they're here to learn and also to learn from their mistakes and get better at coding, get better at reviewing code and all of those other parts of the engineer's job. 00:28:56.940 --> 00:28:57.180 Yeah. 00:28:57.180 --> 00:28:57.460 Okay. 00:28:57.460 --> 00:28:58.900 Yeah, that's really cool. 00:28:58.900 --> 00:28:59.960 I'm a function. 00:28:59.960 --> 00:29:01.940 I'm a robot. 00:29:01.940 --> 00:29:05.460 I work on the database connection part or whatever. 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:06.060 Yeah. 00:29:06.060 --> 00:29:07.140 Exactly. 00:29:07.140 --> 00:29:07.560 Yeah. 00:29:07.560 --> 00:29:25.400 So one of the primary goals of the whole agile thing in its origin was about this creating cross-functional teams and learning more vertical slices of the app than just being stuck on your little part. 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:32.460 And you talked about switching to radical agility and that's based on Daniel Pink's work, which is his whole motivation thing is amazing. 00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:39.500 But can you talk a little bit about what makes radical agility different than, say, Scrum? 00:29:39.500 --> 00:29:42.040 Like, what is it like to actually do radical agility? 00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:42.380 Sure. 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:46.480 So with Scrum, it's sort of your ceremonies, right? 00:29:46.540 --> 00:29:56.220 You have the Scrum process and you have the sprint and you have the certain number of meetings and it's pretty straightforward. 00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:01.780 You know, it's your start, your check-ins, your end and your retrospective. 00:30:01.780 --> 00:30:05.180 The team I'm working with has more of a Kanban approach. 00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:08.440 So I let them choose the backlog. 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:11.320 So they order the tasks that they want to work on. 00:30:11.320 --> 00:30:20.540 They rate their priorities and we do a daily stand-up, but we don't have, like, fixed periods of time. 00:30:20.540 --> 00:30:22.440 Like, we're not doing a month long. 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:27.500 We're just checking in regularly to make sure that the work gets done and keeps flowing. 00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.160 But there's also Scrum elements in that. 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:32.940 So that's just with my team. 00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:38.320 But if you go down the hall, they may be working in a Scrum setup, like, to the book. 00:30:38.320 --> 00:30:48.480 You may go down the other hall and you may see a team that's doing some kind of Scrum waterfall Kanban mixture. 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:55.460 I mean, every team is sort of at liberty to figure out what works best for them because there's just really no cut-and-dried. 00:30:55.460 --> 00:30:57.960 Scrum works for everyone. 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:00.160 Or Kanban works for everyone. 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:01.940 Teams have different personalities. 00:31:01.940 --> 00:31:04.460 They bring different ingredients to the table. 00:31:04.460 --> 00:31:11.600 And really what autonomy means is you find something that works, that helps you deliver, and you iterate on that. 00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:14.840 And it doesn't have to be any sort of fixed thing. 00:31:14.840 --> 00:31:19.900 I mean, you start talking about fixed systems, then you're counter-agile. 00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:20.840 Yeah. 00:31:20.840 --> 00:31:23.600 So that's – it's abstract. 00:31:23.600 --> 00:31:28.260 And it's hard to – it's part of that doesn't happen overnight thing. 00:31:28.260 --> 00:31:28.800 Of course. 00:31:28.800 --> 00:31:29.880 It seems to me like one of – 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:30.360 It's a lot of iteration. 00:31:30.860 --> 00:31:31.000 Yeah. 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:36.740 It seems to me like one of the things that's sort of core to Daniel Pink's work is about autonomy. 00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:49.260 And he's done some really interesting experiments and other – you know, brought together other experiments around sort of when you're doing knowledge work, what makes you the happiest and the most productive. 00:31:49.260 --> 00:31:54.860 And it's not the biggest pay increase or anything like that. 00:31:54.860 --> 00:31:57.840 It's about autonomy, right? 00:31:57.840 --> 00:31:59.940 Like you get to control your future. 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:07.200 So it sounds to me like these different teams kind of get to have a lot of say in how they work day to day. 00:32:08.300 --> 00:32:08.740 Okay. 00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:09.260 Cool. 00:32:09.260 --> 00:32:09.600 Yeah. 00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:12.620 I think if you go to each team, here is all in the world differently. 00:32:12.620 --> 00:32:17.500 And like I really like to work in my team because we don't have a lot of bureaucracy. 00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:20.780 Like we have like stand-ups every day. 00:32:20.780 --> 00:32:29.000 It's just like to check in and see what – if you need some help or if you're stuck with something else that someone can help you. 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:34.720 But we work kind of like I would say like open source. 00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.800 Like we really work with GitHub Enterprise and GitHub. 00:32:37.800 --> 00:32:40.420 Like it's where our projects are. 00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:45.280 And like we have clients like Summers here, like users of our applications. 00:32:45.280 --> 00:32:48.460 So they open issues there in the repos. 00:32:48.460 --> 00:32:57.660 And then we just have these plannings every Friday that where they say like, okay, this week more or less next week we will work on those issues. 00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:01.120 And then we just assign the tickets and work on it. 00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:04.760 And there's no overhead of what meetings. 00:33:04.760 --> 00:33:11.220 And we just sit, do our work, send up a request, send a link to people, say, hey, could you please review this? 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:15.980 And we just basically work in this GitFlow thing and it's really good. 00:33:15.980 --> 00:33:18.420 I feel really comfortable work this way. 00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:19.800 Yeah, that's cool. 00:33:19.800 --> 00:33:22.900 The whole GitFlow style is really quite fantastic. 00:33:22.900 --> 00:33:25.740 So let me put the question to you, Rafael. 00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:32.600 Like what are you – from what you're doing and where you live in the whole technical space, what are the biggest challenges you see technically? 00:33:32.600 --> 00:33:47.780 Yeah, like right now I would say that is making the teams understand how our architecture work, like how our tools work, like these stops and how to use it properly to make them work faster. 00:33:48.560 --> 00:34:03.700 So right now I have like the biggest challenge now I would say that is spreading the idea on how to use and making the documentation better and making the applications work. 00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:11.080 Because I think we developed really good tools and we need to improve them because like we are changing. 00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:27.720 And there's a lot that we did before that could be improved now and I'm just like refactoring some code, like some old code that we had and making it work faster or work better and give better feedback to the users. 00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:50.440 And yeah, I think making this open source idea more internal, like Apple, like Laurie said about in-a-sourcing, like is more about like spreading how our projects work and make people use and be autonomous to just read the documentation and start working. 00:34:50.640 --> 00:34:54.840 So we really work developing tools for other teams. 00:34:54.840 --> 00:35:07.020 So I think this is very important for my team specifically and making, yeah, making the tools easy to use for the teams and make them be able to work autonomously. 00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:19.260 I mean, one of the challenges too, just to like, when you have a team of the size and teams are really, we've encouraged people to use the tools that they want to use to get the job done. 00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:33.700 But when, when you start to have too many tools, too many languages, too many things, then it becomes hard to, it becomes hard to intersource because you may have a great project, but one team is in Java. 00:35:33.700 --> 00:35:42.940 The project is in Python and the Java folks are going to have to ramp up a little bit to learn Python and they may not have the time to do that. 00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:50.360 So we've actually created a tech radar, taking a nod from ThoughtWorks who have their tech radar. 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:53.820 So we implemented that idea for our own team. 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:59.480 And so we have certain languages that are, it's all organized in concentric circles. 00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:13.260 So we have like our approved list, you know, we want you to use these things and then sort of like on hold so that we're flexible enough to start working with new technologies as they become more useful and more popular. 00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:20.800 And so we have a certain collection of languages we really encourage teams to use and Pythons being one of them. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:21.340 But yeah. 00:36:21.340 --> 00:36:23.680 That's a really smart idea, the whole tech radar thing. 00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:24.540 That's cool. 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:24.920 Yeah. 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:24.960 Yeah. 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.720 ThoughtWorks, their thoughts work. 00:36:27.720 --> 00:36:31.220 I don't know if they use that, but maybe they. 00:36:31.220 --> 00:36:35.000 You just gave them a new tagline. 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:35.680 Yeah. 00:36:35.680 --> 00:36:43.680 It's really cheesy, but yeah, they're probably, they're not, they probably would not want that. 00:36:43.680 --> 00:36:45.580 So I think, but yeah. 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:46.280 Yeah. 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:46.560 Cool. 00:36:46.560 --> 00:36:56.780 So you said that you had started out with sort of a Java monolith app and you're kind of moving more to this microservice architecture where there's more different technologies, smaller building blocks. 00:36:56.780 --> 00:36:58.060 It's all supported by steps. 00:36:58.060 --> 00:36:59.480 Can you talk a bit about that? 00:36:59.480 --> 00:36:59.840 Sure. 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:00.300 Yeah. 00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:05.800 So when Zalando was founded, it was like Magento, it was PBHP. 00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:10.600 And that was fine for a little while, but then the company grew. 00:37:10.600 --> 00:37:14.760 And so we moved to the JVM in about three and a half months. 00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:18.740 So you can imagine, but that was like lots of work. 00:37:18.740 --> 00:37:23.700 And that worked pretty well for about five, four years or so. 00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:28.420 But then you have a monolith, such a huge company, such a huge team. 00:37:28.420 --> 00:37:34.740 It just made fixing bugs, working really slow and difficult. 00:37:34.740 --> 00:37:40.260 It held us pretty much to feature technology. 00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:49.300 And that's not very exciting if you want to play around with different languages, different technologies, even for the hiring side. 00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:58.200 Yeah, and as an open source evangelist view, right, like you can't easily release that as a thing to the world and to participate, right? 00:37:58.200 --> 00:37:59.940 Because it's just one giant Java app. 00:37:59.940 --> 00:38:00.480 Yeah. 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:04.920 I mean, there were Python projects coming up this whole time, right? 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:12.940 So we have a suite of Postgres tools that were created in Python, and some of them are about three years old. 00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:20.480 So there was a little bit of room more in the platform infrasight to develop in Python. 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.080 There's a lot of Python developers there. 00:38:23.080 --> 00:38:27.240 But on the whole, yeah, it was pretty monolith. 00:38:27.240 --> 00:38:32.360 So then now with practical agility, there's this shift. 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.180 Raphael mentioned the rules of play. 00:38:34.180 --> 00:38:40.600 One of the rules is microservices, you know, supporting and building out this kind of architecture. 00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:46.520 And so that's where you start seeing a lot of this diversity in languages and flexibility. 00:38:46.520 --> 00:38:55.300 And you can just rewrite stuff if you want to do it differently, you know, and it shouldn't take that long because it's a lot smaller. 00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:56.220 Yeah, that's cool. 00:38:56.220 --> 00:39:04.120 And, you know, you can make those things work if you have systems like steps in place to sort of bring together smoothly. 00:39:04.120 --> 00:39:05.320 And APIs. 00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:06.680 Yeah, and APIs. 00:39:06.680 --> 00:39:07.200 Absolutely. 00:39:08.200 --> 00:39:17.760 One of the big questions or decisions people are making, and it's sort of transitioning these days, but are you guys using Python 2 or using Python 3? 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:24.800 Yeah, so we are, like, recommending new teams to, like, they are creating new projects to use Python 3. 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:28.220 Python 3.5 specifically, like the latest version. 00:39:29.320 --> 00:39:31.320 And, yeah, most of the teams use Python 3.5. 00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:32.320 And, yeah, most of the teams use Python 3.5. 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:37.280 But we have some old projects that use Python 2.7. 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:43.620 And some projects, some applications that are developed in Python and run in our data center. 00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:48.800 And in our data center, we can just deploy applications with Python 2.7. 00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.920 But the idea is that we want to shut down the data center very soon. 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.660 So, and migrate everything to AWS. 00:39:56.660 --> 00:40:01.540 And then the teams will be able to migrate fully to Python 3. 00:40:01.540 --> 00:40:06.420 But, yeah, mostly we recommend our new projects are in Python 3. 00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:07.760 Yeah, that's really cool to hear. 00:40:08.580 --> 00:40:13.800 Do you think that the microservice architecture and the API architecture made that more possible? 00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:19.320 Like, there's not some huge million-line Python 2.4 version? 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:20.240 Yeah, definitely. 00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:21.060 Yeah. 00:40:21.060 --> 00:40:30.420 Like, having microservices instead of a big monolith application makes it easier to just replace the old application, 00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:37.340 just fix or update the code that we had before to be compatible with Python 3. 00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:44.480 And take advantage of the new libraries and integrations in the standard library of Python 3. 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:51.180 So we can just even, like, reduce the dependencies and just have a more concise code. 00:40:51.180 --> 00:40:51.800 Yeah, that's cool. 00:40:51.800 --> 00:41:11.700 We all want to ship our software faster, respond to user requests quicker, and build an edge on the competition. 00:41:11.700 --> 00:41:16.760 But the faster you go, the more likely a bug or issue will slip by and cause your users grief. 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:20.000 I have the same tradeoffs with my Talk Python websites and infrastructure. 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:21.720 That's why I use SnapCI. 00:41:21.720 --> 00:41:25.280 Every time I check in at GitHub, SnapCI springs into action. 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.580 A clean copy of code is pulled from GitHub. 00:41:27.580 --> 00:41:29.600 A Python 3 virtual environment is created. 00:41:29.600 --> 00:41:31.760 All the packages and dependencies are installed. 00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:33.060 The unit tests are run. 00:41:33.060 --> 00:41:36.840 Finally, I'm notified in Slack and a menu bar on my Mac about the outcome. 00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:40.460 That way, I know it's safe to ship a shiny new version of my web app. 00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:45.860 Ship your software faster with a 30-day free trial at snap.ci slash Talk Python. 00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:57.720 So let's talk about some of the open source projects you guys have going. 00:41:57.720 --> 00:42:01.060 You have your own GitHub pages section. 00:42:01.060 --> 00:42:04.200 So, Zalando.github.io. 00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:10.460 And in there, you have a really cool, you call it a dashboard, I guess. 00:42:10.460 --> 00:42:16.300 A really cool dashboard of all of your open source projects broken down repositories by language. 00:42:16.300 --> 00:42:18.400 And there's a bunch of cool stuff. 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:20.920 So, first of all, how did you create that page? 00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:21.760 Do you guys know? 00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:26.540 In-house, it started as an onboarding team, an onboarding project. 00:42:26.540 --> 00:42:34.960 So our onboarding is pretty intense because every month we're adding dozens of new folks to the tech team. 00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:44.680 So we had a system, a program for a while where the newbies would work on something for part of their onboarding. 00:42:44.680 --> 00:42:48.080 And so the dashboard came about as that. 00:42:48.080 --> 00:42:53.640 And then in May, we made some fixes with our UX designers. 00:42:53.640 --> 00:42:59.320 And it was a different team just redesigned it and added the search feature. 00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:07.080 And we changed the formula a little bit to reward activity and external contributors and stars. 00:43:07.080 --> 00:43:12.020 So, like, you'll see Connection, which is Rafael's main project that he's working on. 00:43:12.020 --> 00:43:13.080 It's at the top project. 00:43:13.080 --> 00:43:13.960 Yeah, way to go. 00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:14.480 That's awesome. 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.740 So this is really nice, a really nice way to showcase what you're doing. 00:43:17.740 --> 00:43:22.060 There's a lot of companies that, you know, if you set up an organization in GitHub, 00:43:22.060 --> 00:43:28.740 then you automatically get some kind of like this, a little bit, but just as a GitHub profile page. 00:43:28.740 --> 00:43:29.640 But this is really nice. 00:43:29.640 --> 00:43:33.000 So I was thinking, like, oh, where's the automatic generator of this thing? 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:33.740 Because this is cool. 00:43:33.740 --> 00:43:37.800 Yeah, we have some really talented UX designers here. 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:38.560 Okay. 00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:45.000 Shout out to Gloria Ruprecht, who is one of the UX designers that did this, like, in her spare time. 00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:48.160 Because a lot of the engineers happen to be on her team. 00:43:48.160 --> 00:43:51.260 And so she kind of got pulled into this a little. 00:43:51.260 --> 00:43:55.140 But, yeah, she and another UX designer, Gabriel. 00:43:55.140 --> 00:43:56.320 Yeah, nice work. 00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:57.100 Props to them. 00:43:57.100 --> 00:43:57.440 That's cool. 00:43:58.160 --> 00:44:00.560 So, Rafael, let's talk about your project a little bit. 00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:01.800 Let's talk about Connections. 00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:02.080 Okay. 00:44:02.080 --> 00:44:04.700 C-O-N-N-E-X-I-O-N. 00:44:04.700 --> 00:44:05.740 What is that? 00:44:05.740 --> 00:44:06.360 Yeah. 00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:15.520 So, Connections started as we were developing this tool, like, this API in Python for deploying applications. 00:44:15.520 --> 00:44:19.760 And, actually, Juan, we started even before I joined Zalando. 00:44:20.240 --> 00:44:34.140 And he realized that not only in this API, we would need, in this microservice, we would need to have, like, this Swagger handling and creating an API based on Swagger file. 00:44:34.140 --> 00:44:38.800 Because, yeah, here in Zalando, we have this process of creating microservices. 00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:43.420 You just don't, like, you started coding directly the microservice. 00:44:43.420 --> 00:44:51.400 We have the API guild that will review the API definition, like the Swagger file. 00:44:51.400 --> 00:45:00.280 So, if you want to create a new microservice here at Zalando, you go to the, you create your API definition, the Swagger file. 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:08.120 And then you go to the API guild and you show them there is some guidelines and there is some rules that you should follow when creating a new API. 00:45:08.420 --> 00:45:17.840 And then they give you suggestions and give you insights on how to make your API look better and better for other people that are going to use it. 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:24.740 And then you have a definition of your whole API, even before you write the first line of code. 00:45:24.740 --> 00:45:25.700 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:45:25.700 --> 00:45:25.880 Yeah. 00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:38.100 Let me just ask you for everyone's sake, because not everybody knows what Swagger is or how Swagger defines a documentation or how it can be used to actually build an API itself. 00:45:38.100 --> 00:45:39.560 So, what's Swagger? 00:45:39.560 --> 00:45:44.940 Yeah, Swagger is like a specification that is a standard. 00:45:44.940 --> 00:46:01.740 There is many standards that started popping up around specification of APIs, like how HTTP requests should be made and which endpoints are available, which parameters you're waiting, which validations are, like which formats the parameters should be. 00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:06.260 And I would say that Swagger is the one that's winning now. 00:46:06.260 --> 00:46:09.880 And this is recently supported by the Linux Foundation. 00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:14.220 And it's changing the name from Swagger to OpenAPI. 00:46:14.220 --> 00:46:19.280 So, that's why sometimes I would say Swagger OpenAPI because it's changing the name. 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:21.520 The official name now is OpenAPI. 00:46:21.820 --> 00:46:23.060 So, it's the version 2. 00:46:23.060 --> 00:46:24.260 It's the latest version. 00:46:24.260 --> 00:46:25.540 They are working the version 3. 00:46:25.540 --> 00:46:28.340 But, yeah, currently we use the version 2. 00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:33.960 And, yeah, it's just a way to define your API in pretty good detail. 00:46:34.160 --> 00:46:43.420 Like, you can define the endpoints, the parameters, what are the HTTP status that should be expected by the clients. 00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:48.080 And from this specification, you can generate code. 00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:50.780 Like, there is a Swagger code gen. 00:46:50.780 --> 00:46:54.920 It's a tool that you can generate code in many different languages, including Python. 00:46:55.480 --> 00:47:05.820 And if you use the Swagger code gen, you can generate actually connection, Python code that uses connection out of your Swagger definition. 00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:17.220 And you can just write the code that already have dictionary validated and the way you expect it, the way you define Swagger definition. 00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:22.160 Yeah, so connection basically is a Flask, is built on top of Flask. 00:47:22.160 --> 00:47:32.120 You give it one of these Swagger files, which is a YAML file format that talks about the various endpoints and the type of data is passed to them and so on. 00:47:32.120 --> 00:47:37.900 And it will basically automatically set up the routing and the data passing. 00:47:37.900 --> 00:47:42.100 And you just write the functions to actually do the processing. 00:47:42.100 --> 00:47:43.360 Is that the right summary? 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:44.840 Yes, exactly. 00:47:45.060 --> 00:47:53.380 In the Swagger file, there is like a property, like operation ID, and we use this property to assign which function should be called for each endpoint. 00:47:53.380 --> 00:47:54.800 But yeah, exactly. 00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:55.680 You described it. 00:47:55.680 --> 00:47:56.940 That's really cool. 00:47:56.940 --> 00:48:01.940 So if I created an API this way, can I go to it and like ask it for help? 00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:08.560 If I don't know what it is, I just find the base endpoint and will it show me like some kind of documentation of what the operations are available? 00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:08.900 Yes. 00:48:09.240 --> 00:48:17.560 By default, like connection enables the Swagger.json endpoint where it returns the Swagger definition. 00:48:17.560 --> 00:48:29.460 So if you have an API created using connection, this is enabled by default, but you can, of course, hide this if you don't want it to be available to anyone. 00:48:29.460 --> 00:48:33.480 At Zalando, we have this by default enabled. 00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:39.580 So you can inspect in your APIs and see what they expect and how you should call it. 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:40.500 Okay, nice. 00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:43.340 And is there a way to get like a friendly human readable format? 00:48:43.340 --> 00:48:44.140 Yes. 00:48:44.140 --> 00:48:47.520 In connection, I also provide like UI for that. 00:48:47.520 --> 00:48:54.040 There is a Swagger UI that is like a standard in Swagger projects. 00:48:54.040 --> 00:48:59.020 And connection provides this as well in the UI. 00:48:59.020 --> 00:49:01.300 Like you have API creating connection. 00:49:01.300 --> 00:49:04.860 You just dash UI and you can see this dashboard. 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:10.800 You can also disable it if you don't want, but there is this console that you can just have. 00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:17.140 You just have like an interface, HTTP page, HTML page where you can just make requests. 00:49:17.140 --> 00:49:18.460 Okay, yeah. 00:49:18.460 --> 00:49:20.560 To your API using like an interface. 00:49:20.560 --> 00:49:21.660 Yeah, that's really cool. 00:49:21.660 --> 00:49:30.220 And so this plays like a central role in describing and building a lot of the APIs that are in your steps. 00:49:30.220 --> 00:49:31.760 They're deployed into steps. 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:32.560 Yes, yes. 00:49:32.620 --> 00:49:35.540 We have also the same idea as connection. 00:49:35.540 --> 00:49:44.060 Like you create first the definition and then generate and then write the code that handles the endpoints defined in the Swagger definition. 00:49:44.060 --> 00:49:50.620 We have also similar projects for different programming languages like Clojure and Java. 00:49:50.620 --> 00:49:51.740 And yeah. 00:49:51.740 --> 00:49:55.820 So you can just see, you know, Zalando GitHub page. 00:49:55.820 --> 00:49:56.120 Right. 00:49:56.120 --> 00:49:56.860 Oh, that's really cool. 00:49:56.860 --> 00:50:07.440 One of the challenges of these HTTP services or RESTful services is they're really nice to work with, but they're very opaque. 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:14.380 You have almost no way to understand what they do or how they do it unless you just, you know, go and read the docs or something. 00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:14.740 Right. 00:50:14.740 --> 00:50:18.880 And so having these somewhat self-documenting is really cool. 00:50:19.140 --> 00:50:19.940 Yes, definitely. 00:50:19.940 --> 00:50:29.260 It's very important to tell the clients like how they should call the endpoints and have these documented. 00:50:29.260 --> 00:50:30.440 This is very important. 00:50:30.980 --> 00:50:42.440 And you can just use this documentation, which is parsable with a JSON file to generate code and generate clients that are up to date with your API. 00:50:42.440 --> 00:51:03.000 So connection, like the idea of using connection to have this, your server, your Microsoft using the definition of your endpoints to handle and validate the request, make it guarantees that the clients are going to call it properly. 00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:08.660 Like that the specification, the documentation of the API is up to date with your code. 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:09.300 Yeah, that's cool. 00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:12.840 You just change the documentation and you can regenerate the clients as well. 00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.460 It's pretty awesome. 00:51:13.460 --> 00:51:15.240 Very nice. 00:51:15.240 --> 00:51:15.800 Very nice. 00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:21.860 So it seems like open source is something that you guys care more than most companies, I would say. 00:51:21.860 --> 00:51:25.440 I mean, you have like a special page showcasing all your GitHub work. 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.720 You have, you've trimmed it down to 200 repositories. 00:51:28.720 --> 00:51:31.060 Like, so why the focus on open source there? 00:51:31.240 --> 00:51:41.720 I think one reason is that our VP of engineering is still a developer, loves code, introduced Scala to three different companies. 00:51:41.720 --> 00:51:53.100 And so he comes to his leadership style and what has helped create a culture where we really value the actual work of coding. 00:51:53.520 --> 00:51:59.840 So open source is probably the best way to be able to learn quickly. 00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:02.120 You make new projects at work. 00:52:02.120 --> 00:52:03.260 You iterate, you innovate. 00:52:03.260 --> 00:52:13.700 There's also the fun community aspect and how amazing it is when a little idea can turn into something so huge. 00:52:13.700 --> 00:52:18.440 Like you might have seen Linus Torvald's TED talk or TED like discussion. 00:52:18.440 --> 00:52:24.140 I think it was a TED conversation where he talks about how Linux and Git grew. 00:52:24.140 --> 00:52:25.700 I mean, he's just a guy in a room. 00:52:25.700 --> 00:52:29.980 And it becomes where this project is used around the world. 00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:34.840 And there's this something pretty magical in my opinion. 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:38.460 It's also a really great way to solve your technical challenges. 00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:50.680 If something you're working with doesn't do the job, then if you're clever, you can make your own library or component and get your job done. 00:52:50.680 --> 00:52:57.360 So I think that it's really it's the most fun take on capitalism I can think of. 00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:11.180 I mean, this idea that huge, extremely successful tech companies with billions of dollars can provide this way for creative, smart people to just work for the love of it. 00:53:11.180 --> 00:53:13.040 Yeah, it's because they want to. 00:53:13.040 --> 00:53:13.840 Yeah, it's really amazing. 00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:24.500 I try to showcase companies that are actually building their business on open source in a way that the thing that is the foundation of their business, they're actually giving away. 00:53:24.500 --> 00:53:25.120 It's on GitHub. 00:53:25.120 --> 00:53:25.880 You can go get it. 00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.260 And yet there are these great, vibrant companies. 00:53:28.260 --> 00:53:30.060 I think, yeah, I think it's really amazing. 00:53:30.060 --> 00:53:34.760 And it's really cool that you guys are giving away and making public so much of what you're doing. 00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:37.120 Yeah, and it's a great conversation starter. 00:53:37.120 --> 00:53:47.860 Like I did an onboarding presentation to the new hires yesterday or the day before about our open source culture and just asking who in the room has already made something. 00:53:47.860 --> 00:53:51.340 Get these people really excited to talk about their work. 00:53:51.340 --> 00:53:53.640 They contributed to another project. 00:53:53.640 --> 00:53:54.980 Okay, what was that like? 00:53:54.980 --> 00:53:55.840 What did you learn? 00:53:55.840 --> 00:54:00.020 I mean, it's just really it's just all organic and fun. 00:54:00.020 --> 00:54:01.440 Yeah, I'm sure it is. 00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:08.960 Speaking of fun to work in these environments, you guys have quite a few interesting tech jobs available, right? 00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:11.880 At tech.zalando.de slash jobs. 00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:12.360 Mm-hmm. 00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:21.280 You had something like 17 software jobs and 12 data science jobs with machine learning and all sorts of cool stuff going on. 00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:27.880 So people, a lot of people out there listening are asking me, you'll send me messages like, hey, can you recommend a cool place to work or something? 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:29.360 Like, yeah, check this out. 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:30.780 That's definitely a good option, right? 00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:31.140 Yeah. 00:54:31.140 --> 00:54:31.600 Yeah. 00:54:31.600 --> 00:54:34.060 We have all levels, all backgrounds. 00:54:34.060 --> 00:54:37.040 It's such a diverse team. 00:54:37.040 --> 00:54:46.200 When you think about where everybody comes from, geographically, companies they've worked for previously or if it's their first job, you know, how did they get here? 00:54:46.200 --> 00:54:46.480 Yeah. 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:50.960 I really like the idea to work with people from everywhere around the world. 00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:58.420 Like, I'm from Brazil, but in my team there is people from Poland, from Portugal, from Netherlands and from the U.S. 00:54:58.420 --> 00:54:59.540 There is people from everywhere. 00:54:59.540 --> 00:55:00.740 And it's really cool. 00:55:00.980 --> 00:55:01.660 Like, it's really nice. 00:55:01.660 --> 00:55:08.180 You have very interesting conversation, like, at the luncheon time or, like, about different cultures and backgrounds. 00:55:08.180 --> 00:55:08.920 And it's really cool. 00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:10.040 Yeah, that's really cool. 00:55:10.040 --> 00:55:11.180 Awesome. 00:55:11.180 --> 00:55:16.180 So people, check that out if you're interested in working on these types of projects. 00:55:16.600 --> 00:55:18.600 So I just have a few moments left. 00:55:18.600 --> 00:55:25.080 Let me ask you guys two questions that I normally ask everyone at the end of the show and whoever wants can take them. 00:55:25.080 --> 00:55:34.060 So on the Python package index, there are over 80,000 packages that do, you know, open source packages that do so many amazing things. 00:55:34.420 --> 00:55:37.120 Do you guys have one you recommend or that you think is pretty cool? 00:55:37.120 --> 00:55:37.520 Yeah. 00:55:37.520 --> 00:55:37.580 Yeah. 00:55:37.580 --> 00:55:39.540 Like, we use a lot of requests. 00:55:39.540 --> 00:55:42.000 It's a pretty known package. 00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:44.000 But, yeah, we use a lot. 00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:45.420 And it's really good. 00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:47.400 Like, I really, it works really nice. 00:55:48.160 --> 00:55:52.420 So I would really recommend if you don't know, you don't use it, you should. 00:55:52.420 --> 00:55:53.640 Yeah, requests are pretty awesome. 00:55:53.640 --> 00:56:07.000 And we have an engineer on our team, Henning, who, he was largely responsible for our Python work earlier on when we were the Java monoliths and didn't have too much happening with open source. 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:10.040 So he's got a fair number of packages up there. 00:56:10.160 --> 00:56:12.120 So I'll give a plug for NSEnter. 00:56:12.120 --> 00:56:18.840 It's a Python package that lets you add, enter Linux kernel namespaces with a single syscall. 00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:19.940 So. 00:56:19.940 --> 00:56:20.980 Okay, awesome. 00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:23.600 He probably need it and made it himself. 00:56:23.600 --> 00:56:24.860 He's kind of like that. 00:56:24.860 --> 00:56:28.000 He just puts out a lot of code and lots of projects. 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:28.880 Yeah, that's great. 00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:31.400 It's amazing how prolific some people are, right? 00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:31.940 Yes. 00:56:31.940 --> 00:56:32.840 Cool. 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:33.840 He's one of them. 00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:34.660 Yeah, very cool. 00:56:34.660 --> 00:56:39.240 And then the other question is, when you write Python code, what editor do you use? 00:56:39.240 --> 00:56:45.640 Yeah, I personally use Emacs, but there's not many people here in the zone that use Emacs. 00:56:45.640 --> 00:56:47.940 Like, we have a guild and there is a few people there. 00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:51.820 But most of the people that work with Python here, they use PyCharm. 00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:52.460 Okay, yeah. 00:56:52.460 --> 00:56:54.400 PyCharm is definitely a good one. 00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:59.220 Emacs, I would say, is quite popular out there from the people I've interviewed. 00:56:59.220 --> 00:57:00.440 So, yeah, that's cool. 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:01.360 I like Adam. 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:02.360 Yeah. 00:57:02.360 --> 00:57:03.320 Adam works for me. 00:57:03.720 --> 00:57:09.960 Yeah, I think Emacs is like, if you really want to sharp your tool, like, I really like 00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:17.400 to spend time just configuring my editor and seeing it working better and having new key 00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:20.360 bindings that work, do magical things for me. 00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:20.760 Okay. 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:21.500 Yeah, that's cool. 00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:22.480 Yeah, Emacs is great for that. 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:24.540 And yeah, Adam, I like Adam as well. 00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:25.320 Yeah. 00:57:25.420 --> 00:57:28.300 Sublime Text also does the job. 00:57:28.300 --> 00:57:29.340 Yeah, very cool. 00:57:29.340 --> 00:57:30.940 I'm not too picky on features. 00:57:30.940 --> 00:57:38.420 It's like bare minimum, but I think both are so very loved by people who are picky about 00:57:38.420 --> 00:57:38.780 things. 00:57:38.780 --> 00:57:39.460 Nice. 00:57:39.460 --> 00:57:40.160 All right. 00:57:40.160 --> 00:57:41.440 Final call to action. 00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:45.120 People want to get started with your open source stuff or learn more about it. 00:57:45.120 --> 00:57:45.760 What do they do? 00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:47.720 You should go to Zalando. 00:57:48.560 --> 00:57:52.420 So that's Z-A-L-A-N-D-O dot GitHub dot I-O. 00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:54.340 Look at what we have. 00:57:54.340 --> 00:57:55.480 Poke around. 00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:57.640 See if there's something that looks interesting. 00:57:57.640 --> 00:58:00.560 Definitely try out a connection. 00:58:00.560 --> 00:58:01.380 Check it out. 00:58:01.380 --> 00:58:05.480 See if there's some feature or bug you want to fix. 00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:06.800 Ping Raphael. 00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:09.640 He'll probably be the one responding to you if it's not Jao. 00:58:09.640 --> 00:58:12.560 We have a bunch of open source features there. 00:58:12.560 --> 00:58:14.820 You can just pick one and work on it. 00:58:14.820 --> 00:58:19.180 And there's another project, too, that's pretty exciting called Patroni that's also 00:58:19.180 --> 00:58:20.220 coded in Python. 00:58:20.220 --> 00:58:25.660 And we're actually trying to get more folks that use Kubernetes with Google Cloud Engine 00:58:25.660 --> 00:58:26.960 to try that one out. 00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:30.920 But we have a lot of Postgres fans. 00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:32.940 We have a couple experts even in Postgres. 00:58:32.940 --> 00:58:34.720 We've been using it for several years. 00:58:34.720 --> 00:58:38.020 And so Patroni is a template for Postgres high availability. 00:58:38.020 --> 00:58:41.540 And you can use it with Zookeeper, etcd, or console. 00:58:41.540 --> 00:58:43.440 And we developed it. 00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:45.380 We have Josh Burgess of Red Hat. 00:58:45.380 --> 00:58:46.300 He's made a couple. 00:58:46.300 --> 00:58:47.440 Maybe I should say. 00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:48.760 I shouldn't be. 00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:51.060 He's made quite a number of contributions. 00:58:51.060 --> 00:58:54.100 And has also talked about it at KubeCon. 00:58:54.100 --> 00:59:00.340 So we're really trying to get more users of it, especially in the Kubernetes community. 00:59:00.340 --> 00:59:02.200 Yeah, those sound like great projects. 00:59:02.200 --> 00:59:08.020 And yeah, you guys have a ton of open source things available on your GitHub pages of links. 00:59:08.020 --> 00:59:10.120 So be sure to link to all those things. 00:59:10.120 --> 00:59:12.680 Lori, Raphael, it's been great to talk to you. 00:59:12.680 --> 00:59:13.380 Thanks for being on the show. 00:59:13.620 --> 00:59:14.520 Yeah, thank you. 00:59:14.520 --> 00:59:14.880 Yep. 00:59:14.880 --> 00:59:15.160 Bye. 00:59:16.740 --> 00:59:19.660 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 00:59:20.220 --> 00:59:22.800 Today's guests have been Lori Apple and Raphael Carricio. 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.920 And this episode has been sponsored by Hired and SnapCI. 00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:27.840 Thank you both for supporting the show. 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:30.860 Hired wants to help you find your next big thing. 00:59:30.860 --> 00:59:36.660 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me to get five or more offers with salary and equity presented right up front. 00:59:36.860 --> 00:59:39.360 And a special listener signing bonus of $2,000. 00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:43.700 SnapCI is modern, continuous integration and delivery. 00:59:43.700 --> 00:59:46.300 Build, test, and deploy your code directly from GitHub. 00:59:46.300 --> 00:59:49.560 All in your browser with debugging, Docker, and parallels included. 00:59:49.940 --> 00:59:52.620 Try them for free at SnapCI slash Talk Python. 00:59:52.620 --> 00:59:58.980 I'm so excited to finally be able to unveil my Python for Entrepreneurs course that I told you about at the top of the show. 00:59:59.220 --> 01:00:07.340 If you want to learn Python web development and launch an online business, you owe it to yourself to check out the Kickstarter at talkpython.fm/launch. 01:00:07.340 --> 01:00:09.960 I hope we can build something amazing together. 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:16.240 You can find the links from this episode at talkpython.fm/episodes slash show slash 72. 01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:18.680 Be sure to subscribe to the show. 01:00:18.680 --> 01:00:20.880 Open your favorite podcatcher and search for Python. 01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:22.120 We should be right at the top. 01:00:22.120 --> 01:00:31.400 You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, Google Play feed at /play, and direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm. 01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:36.360 Our theme music is Developers, Developers, Developers by Corey Smith, who goes by Smix. 01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:43.040 Corey just recently started selling his tracks on iTunes, so I recommend you check it out at talkpython.fm/music. 01:00:43.220 --> 01:00:48.420 You can browse his tracks he has for sale on iTunes and listen to the full-length version of the theme song. 01:00:48.420 --> 01:00:50.300 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 01:00:50.300 --> 01:00:51.580 Thanks so much for listening. 01:00:51.580 --> 01:00:52.780 I really appreciate it. 01:00:52.780 --> 01:00:54.920 Smix, let's get out of here. 01:00:54.920 --> 01:01:16.480 Stay tuned. 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:16.640 you 01:01:16.640 --> 01:01:17.140 you 01:01:17.140 --> 01:01:47.120 Thank you.