WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:04.220 Have you listened to the other major Python podcasts hosted by Tobias Macy and Chris Paddy? 00:00:04.220 --> 00:00:08.960 It's called Podcast Init, and like this show, there's some excellent stories from the Python 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:14.080 ecosystem on there weekly. Recently, some listeners from both shows suggested that we 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:19.900 do the unimaginable, that we cross the streams. There's something very important I forgot to tell 00:00:19.900 --> 00:00:28.040 you. What? Don't cross the streams. Why? It would be bad. I'm fuzzy on the whole good bad thing. 00:00:28.040 --> 00:00:33.140 What do you mean bad? Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:38.300 molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light. Total protonic reversal. All right, that's 00:00:38.300 --> 00:00:45.820 bad. Okay, all right, important safety tip. Thanks, Egon. We, despite Egon's warning, are going to do it 00:00:45.820 --> 00:00:51.320 anyway. Recall in the movie Ghostbusters that they actually, in the end, defeat Gozer by doing just 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:56.860 that. This time, when we cross the streams, the result is a little less dramatic, but something 00:00:56.860 --> 00:01:01.900 awesome still comes out the other side. A fun podcast episode. This is Talk Python To Me, 00:01:01.900 --> 00:01:05.460 episode 68, recorded Monday, July 11th, 2016. 00:01:05.860 --> 00:01:35.420 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, 00:01:35.420 --> 00:01:40.180 and the personalities. This is your host, Michael Kennedy. Follow me on Twitter where I'm at, 00:01:40.180 --> 00:01:45.540 M. Kennedy. Keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm and follow the show 00:01:45.540 --> 00:01:51.860 on Twitter via at Talk Python. This episode is brought to you by Hired and SnapCI. Thank them for 00:01:51.860 --> 00:01:59.840 supporting the show on Twitter via at Hired underscore HQ and at Snap underscore CI. Tobias, Chris, 00:01:59.940 --> 00:02:03.060 welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for having us on. Happy to be here. 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:07.500 Yeah, it's time to cross the streams of these two Python podcasts. 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:11.240 Whatever you do, don't cross the streams. 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:17.240 Don't cross the streams. Yeah, man. That's bringing me back to my childhood with Ghostbusters. Yeah, 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:21.740 so that's going to be really fun. And, you know, we've both had such interesting conversations 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:28.520 with so many people in the community that are pushing the boundary of what you can do in Python 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:32.540 or just getting started. Like there's all these stories and we've both had a lot of exposure 00:02:32.540 --> 00:02:35.100 and told a lot of them. And so it's going to be fun. 00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:36.080 Definitely. Absolutely. 00:02:36.620 --> 00:02:39.780 Before we get into that, though, let's talk about your story. 00:02:39.780 --> 00:02:43.620 How did you guys get into programming in Python? Tobias, go first. 00:02:43.620 --> 00:02:49.960 So I actually ended up getting into programming a little bit later on. I always liked sort of 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:56.860 digging into the guts of programs, like hacking the god mode, et cetera, on different games or 00:02:56.860 --> 00:03:01.560 digging into Windows registries to try and tweak things. I actually ended up getting into programming 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:09.180 through a computer engineering degree that I did online after a false start of thinking that I 00:03:09.180 --> 00:03:15.940 wanted to go to school for theoretical physics. And then so I ended up going to school, getting my 00:03:15.940 --> 00:03:20.560 degree in computer engineering. And while I was doing that, I actually got started as a systems and 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:27.400 network admin for a small company in Vermont, which is where I grew up. And just from there, 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:33.300 ended up teaching myself Python, started teaching myself other languages and other different frameworks 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:38.760 and just switching from different jobs, worked as a systems and network admin, as a developer, 00:03:38.760 --> 00:03:44.720 as a DevOps engineer. Currently, I'm working as a senior DevOps engineer and using SaltStack in my 00:03:44.720 --> 00:03:47.320 day to day. So I do a lot of hacking on that. 00:03:47.320 --> 00:03:48.580 Can you say where you're working? 00:03:48.580 --> 00:03:49.400 Yeah. 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:50.440 Because you're working in a pretty cool place, right? 00:03:50.440 --> 00:03:55.640 Sure. Yeah. So I work at MIT in the Office of Digital Learning. So I helped to run their instance of 00:03:55.640 --> 00:04:01.480 Open edX for doing online courses for their residential courses. So all of the on campus 00:04:01.480 --> 00:04:07.640 courses that need an online component, most of them use the Open edX instance that we run on campus. 00:04:07.640 --> 00:04:13.280 And I'm responsible for making sure that that stays going and gets upgraded in a timely manner. 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.080 I'm sure that's a cool place to be. Do you work on campus or do you work remote? 00:04:16.080 --> 00:04:17.100 Yep. I work on campus. 00:04:17.100 --> 00:04:20.320 Yeah. Fantastic. Chris, how about you? What's your story? 00:04:20.640 --> 00:04:25.620 So my story starts a little bit earlier than Tobias's when dinosaurs roamed the earth in the 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:29.480 late 70s, early 80s. I had always been... 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:30.320 When text was green. 00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:33.080 When text was green. 00:04:33.080 --> 00:04:39.940 I had always been into video games. I had Mattel and television and I gave up waiting for the keyboard 00:04:39.940 --> 00:04:44.420 attachment that never really materialized. And I really just got to the point where I was like, 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:49.240 these are great. These games are great, but I want to control what's going on the screen. 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:54.580 And so I saved all my pennies and paper route money and my parents pitched in and we bought an Atari 00:04:54.580 --> 00:05:00.380 400 with 16K and a cassette drive and we sprung for the basic cartridge. 00:05:00.380 --> 00:05:02.460 Wow. That's awesome. 00:05:02.580 --> 00:05:09.000 That's how I got my start in programming and learned basic and a little bit of assembler. I never became an 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:16.100 assembly language master. Below these many years later, I actually came to Python much, much later. I only 00:05:16.100 --> 00:05:23.080 started learning Python maybe about two years ago, three years ago, something like that. In my last job 00:05:23.080 --> 00:05:31.660 where I was working as a, in a DevOps capacity, senior software engineer, doing deployment for a fleet of 00:05:31.660 --> 00:05:37.120 about a thousand servers, automated deployment. I had formerly been mostly a Ruby guy and before that, 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:43.900 a Perl guy. And when I learned Python, part of it is also Tobias's fault because we had worked 00:05:43.900 --> 00:05:48.780 together at a previous startup and he had just been constantly nudging me, we're at this Ruby shop. 00:05:48.860 --> 00:05:53.900 And he's like, you know, this would be a lot easier in Python or, you know, honestly, this, this, I'm just 00:05:53.900 --> 00:05:58.380 going to do it in Python and show you when you can see how easy it is. And that sort of planted the seeds. 00:05:58.380 --> 00:06:03.760 And so when Carbonite came around and they told me they're mostly a Python shop, I said, well, what the heck? 00:06:03.760 --> 00:06:09.780 I mean, I, you know, I might as well. And I really, really enjoyed it. And now I'm working for Amazon Web 00:06:09.780 --> 00:06:18.140 Services as a system development engineer and on the elastic file system project. And we use an awful lot of 00:06:18.140 --> 00:06:20.280 Python there. So I am still loving it. 00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:25.480 No, that's excellent. I'm sure that's a super fun place to work as well. But do you work remotely? 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:29.180 Are they in, are they on Seattle or where is the group? 00:06:29.180 --> 00:06:34.140 We have a Boston office, which in fact, I don't know if Tobias, I don't know if you're still where 00:06:34.140 --> 00:06:36.420 you were, but we used to be right next door to Tobias. 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:38.480 Okay. 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:41.300 Yeah. We just moved our office down the street a little ways. 00:06:41.300 --> 00:06:44.500 Ah, okay. Well then we're no longer next door, but we're still pretty darn close. 00:06:45.760 --> 00:06:51.680 So let's talk about the podcast. Your podcast is called Podcast and Knit. And it's very similar 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:56.620 to mine in that we have some of the same guests. We have some of the same sort of format, although 00:06:56.620 --> 00:07:01.400 you guys, there's two of you, there's one of me, but generally it's similar. Why, why did 00:07:01.400 --> 00:07:02.960 you guys get started? What was the motivation there? 00:07:02.960 --> 00:07:10.060 So I'm mostly to blame for that. I have been listening to podcasts for a few years now. I 00:07:10.060 --> 00:07:16.100 always appreciated different particular languages, podcasts, and I've liked Python for a long 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:20.880 time. Going back to a little bit of my story of how I got started in programming, I ended 00:07:20.880 --> 00:07:27.060 up teaching myself Python just because I had heard mention of it a number of times and thought 00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:31.080 it was kind of interesting. I actually started teaching myself Ruby first, but it never really 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:35.860 stuck. And when I started learning Python, it just immediately clicked and I was like, 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:37.500 okay, this is what I want to be working in. 00:07:37.500 --> 00:07:39.960 That's cool. I had the same reaction to Ruby and Python as well. 00:07:39.960 --> 00:07:46.860 Yeah. So I just ended up using it wherever I could, writing little scripts with it and 00:07:46.860 --> 00:07:52.820 eventually building up bigger projects. And I had started off listening to all the old Python 00:07:52.820 --> 00:07:57.980 podcasts that were around like Radio Free Python from Python Import Podcasts. And I thought 00:07:57.980 --> 00:08:01.580 those were great and it was really interesting to hear from the different voices in the community. 00:08:01.580 --> 00:08:08.160 But all of those shows stopped producing episodes a few years ago. And so once I listened through all 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:15.420 the back catalog, I said, okay, well, what now? And eventually, I guess I decided that if I wanted to 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:19.980 be able to listen to a Python podcast, I guess I was going to have to start one because it didn't seem 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:25.240 like anybody else was doing it. And I waited probably a good year or so for somebody else to pick up the 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:29.780 torch and it didn't happen. And eventually I said, okay, well, I guess I gotta start thinking about 00:08:29.780 --> 00:08:36.300 this. And I had had it sitting in my mind for a few months before I finally pulled the trigger. And 00:08:36.300 --> 00:08:43.000 I knew that I wanted to have a co-host on the show because listening to shows like Ruby Rogues and 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:46.320 JavaScript Jabber, where they have a bunch of panelists, I thought it was a good dynamic. 00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:51.280 And so I approached a couple of my friends and said, hey, I'm interested in doing this Python 00:08:51.280 --> 00:08:57.880 podcast. What about you? And Chris ended up deciding to join me on that. And eventually, we finally got 00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:02.020 our acts together enough to start recording and it just kind of snowballed from there. 00:09:02.020 --> 00:09:05.680 Yeah, that's awesome. So what was that like? Like, hey, Chris, you want to get up at five in the morning 00:09:05.680 --> 00:09:06.980 and do a bunch of recording? 00:09:06.980 --> 00:09:14.060 What I remember actually is we were both working at the same startup at the time and we both were sort of like 00:09:14.060 --> 00:09:19.680 kicking back and forth. Like, why is there no Python podcast? Like what, you know, we both appreciated the 00:09:19.680 --> 00:09:25.560 Ruby Rogues show, you know, major props to them. They do really great work and they have some great topics on. 00:09:25.560 --> 00:09:31.060 Even if you're not into Ruby, you should definitely give them a listen. But we both said, okay, they're doing this 00:09:31.060 --> 00:09:37.060 great work. Why is there no voice for the Python community that's doing similar things? And it was 00:09:37.060 --> 00:09:42.880 just sort of like, well, okay, you know, as Tobias said previously, he'd had the idea rattling around 00:09:42.880 --> 00:09:46.900 for a while. And I just sort of jumped on the bandwagon and said, yeah, we should really actually do this 00:09:46.900 --> 00:09:52.680 because, you know, one of the things, in my opinion, that you have to come up with in order to make something 00:09:52.680 --> 00:09:57.980 a success is there has to be a niche and there has to be interest, right? And it was very clear to both of us 00:09:57.980 --> 00:10:04.140 that this was a void that needed filling, that people really loved Python and the previous Python 00:10:04.140 --> 00:10:09.900 podcasts before they podfaded were very popular. So we said, this is something we really need to jump 00:10:09.900 --> 00:10:14.360 in and make happen. Yeah, absolutely. And little did you guys know that somewhere on the West Coast 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:23.480 was some guy in an office above his garage thinking the same thought. We released, I don't remember the 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:28.880 exact date, but it was within a week of each other. Like there had been no podcast for quite some time. 00:10:28.880 --> 00:10:34.060 We both said, yeah, there's this huge void. And what the heck, like if no one else is going to do it, 00:10:34.060 --> 00:10:38.800 I guess I'm qualified enough and I really want to try. So let's go for it. Right. And that's amazing. 00:10:38.800 --> 00:10:43.640 Yeah, it was actually, you released your intro episode three days before ours. 00:10:43.640 --> 00:10:49.300 I remember because I was in the process of getting edited and I launched mine and then I looked around 00:10:49.300 --> 00:10:53.200 to see what the reaction was and said, wait a minute, what happened here? 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:53.920 What did this come from? 00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:03.200 And I don't know what it was, but yours launching three days before it sort of stole the limelight. And so for a little while, 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:08.680 we were sort of in the shadow of you. And I remember thinking, how did this happen? What is going on here? 00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:15.380 But over time, we've both gained a lot of popularity. So I would say, yeah, absolutely. And congratulations, 00:11:15.380 --> 00:11:17.960 you guys on the success of your show. That's really cool. 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:19.180 Thank you. You too. 00:11:19.180 --> 00:11:25.600 Thanks. Yeah, I think, you know, I certainly see the podcasting space to some degree as kind of a, 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:31.500 from an abundance perspective, like there's plenty of stories for us all to be telling, right? If there 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:36.400 was 20 Python podcasts, maybe not, but you know, for a couple of no problem at all. Right. 00:11:36.400 --> 00:11:43.280 Sure. And one of the things too, that I try to focus on is getting guests on the show who aren't as 00:11:43.280 --> 00:11:48.320 much in the limelight within the community. So I absolutely love getting guests on who are bigger names in the 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:55.580 community, like Travis Oliphant, or Ned Batchelder, people who everybody knows their name. But I also 00:11:55.580 --> 00:12:00.620 really enjoy being able to find people who are doing very interesting things who lots of people might not 00:12:00.620 --> 00:12:04.660 have heard of, for instance, our episode about Avenya with Griage. 00:12:04.660 --> 00:12:07.440 The Beware episode, actually, he doesn't get much press. 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:12.800 Yep. Yeah. Russell Keith McGee, that was a great episode. Manisha Sané talking about software and data 00:12:12.800 --> 00:12:17.120 carpentry. So just trying to, because this is such a large community, and there are so many different 00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:22.320 things people are doing with it, I try to pick from different industries to say, what kinds of 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:26.480 stories can we get from that, rather than just sticking with the typical web development, data 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:32.300 engineering, because it's so easy to just fall into that rut. And it's, as somebody who is trying to 00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:36.040 bring voice to the community, I think it's important to branch out as much as possible. 00:12:36.040 --> 00:12:40.700 Yeah. I really like that philosophy and try to follow it myself as well, because 00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:45.900 everybody has amazing stories. And one of the things that's somewhat unique about Python is 00:12:45.900 --> 00:12:52.740 it's so broadly used, right? From all the different places and disciplines, you know, 00:12:52.740 --> 00:13:00.260 into the sciences and math and DevOps and just all over. So I think it's important to bring that 00:13:00.260 --> 00:13:04.580 awareness of the different areas rather than just, hey, it's web development all the time on Python. 00:13:05.060 --> 00:13:07.060 Definitely. Absolutely. 00:13:07.060 --> 00:13:14.320 Yeah. Chris, so how much time do you guys typically spend on like finding guests, editing, preparing for 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:19.700 the show, post-production? Like what, what does a typical week in shipping an MP3 look like for you guys? 00:13:19.700 --> 00:13:24.960 I'm actually really lucky in the sense that Tobias and I can say this right to your wife, basically, 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:31.500 they do a lot of the background work on the podcast. I lately have been really just sort of pitching in 00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:36.860 being the co-host. So Tobias, you can probably answer how long the whole production process takes. 00:13:36.860 --> 00:13:43.980 Yeah. So in terms of finding and booking guests, that's variable. Some guests, you send one email 00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:49.440 and they say, yeah, that's great. Let's do it tomorrow. Or whereas some guests say, now's not a 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:53.400 good time for me. Let's try booking it two, three months in advance. And so there's a lot of variability 00:13:53.400 --> 00:13:58.300 there in terms of how much back and forth is necessary to get something scheduled. And some people 00:13:58.300 --> 00:14:03.120 are just so busy that they don't ever get back. And so those people, I just kind of put in a column 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:08.700 of these people never responded. I'll try again some other time. And then once I do get somebody 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:16.720 booked and scheduled, I generally spend a couple hours or so getting questions put together. Sometimes 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:21.140 more, sometimes less depends on how familiar I am with the particular subject matter or project that 00:14:21.140 --> 00:14:26.060 they're working on or their particular background in terms of the different things that they've done. 00:14:26.260 --> 00:14:32.200 And it also differs because sometimes I'm interviewing somebody who has just done so 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:36.780 many different things within the community that it's hard to narrow down on one particular subject. 00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:42.720 So for instance, Armin Ronaker, rather than focus on Flask or focus on Lektor, we decided to 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:49.940 just get his overall story of working in Python and just sort of take little tidbits of projects that 00:14:49.940 --> 00:15:09.940 worked on. Whereas other times, for instance, when we interviewed the creators of Wagtail, we went deep on one particular project. And so those require different approaches in terms of figuring out what kinds of questions to ask. Because if it's just one project, well, you can a lot of times just sort of go through the documentation, 00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:15.880 maybe look at the marketing page. 00:15:15.880 --> 00:15:31.500 what other sorts of what other sorts of articles there might be about it. So I usually use those as an inspiration for determining what questions I always like to start with at the top level, asking them to describe the project or describe their history with Python. 00:15:31.820 --> 00:15:49.500 So that there's always a common entry point into the conversation, because some people may have never heard of this project before, whereas some people may have been using it for years. And so just having a common starting point of this is what the project is, this is how it got started, this is why I wanted to create it, I think really makes the overall interview a lot more accessible. 00:15:49.760 --> 00:16:19.600 Yeah, and that's one of the things that often gets stripped away by the time it becomes popular and widely spread is the history, the things people tried that didn't work out. You know, like, if you think about something like SQLAlchemy, it's been around for so long, it's evolved, and it's this highly polished thing. But it started out as just like, you know, a new blank file. So, you know, that Mike Bayer started typing in, right? Like, the motivation and the history, I think, 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:21.340 makes a lot of these things richer. 00:16:21.340 --> 00:16:49.380 Yeah, and another interesting one was learning about the progeny of NumPy with Travis Oliphant, because this is this, this package that's used everywhere, in multiple industries, not just in data science, but also even in, you know, web development or image processing, and just seeing, you know, oh, I just didn't really like using these other languages, I wanted to be able to do something in Python. And there was this project that kind of did what I wanted to. So I just used that as an inspiration and built up this whole new thing. 00:16:49.440 --> 00:17:19.280 Yeah, for sure. 00:17:19.280 --> 00:17:32.960 There's issues with audio quality, or there might have been interruptions. And so those can require a little bit more editing time. And then once it's been edited, it just gets exported to an MP3, I upload it to our podcast host, and then the feed gets generated. 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:40.400 And it usually takes me about half hour, 45 minutes to announce it on various sites like Twitter, Google+, etc. 00:17:40.800 --> 00:18:06.060 Yeah, a lot of small steps. And you know, I think they just, they really, really do add up. It takes probably, probably more time than people realize. Like, you know, I was talking to Brian Okken. He's also in Portland, runs the Test and Code podcast. And he said originally, he started podcasting, because he was trying to do a lot of writing and blogging, and he felt like he didn't have time for it. So he wanted something that he thought would be more efficient. 00:18:06.700 --> 00:18:36.680 Oh, goodness. 00:18:36.680 --> 00:19:06.660 Yeah. 00:19:06.660 --> 00:19:36.640 Yeah. 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:48.220 It's way sweeter. Use the link Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me and Hired will double the signing bonus to $2,000. Opportunity is knocking. Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me and answer the door. 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:09.220 One question I want to ask you about. 00:20:09.220 --> 00:20:39.200 You know, I think, you know, I think, you know, I'm going to do a lot of people, you know, I'm going to do a lot of work, you know, I'm going to do a lot of work. And I'll go back and forth thinking, man, this is a lot of work. You know, like, it would be so much quicker and easier to just release it. And a lot of shows just like, record and here's the recording, you're done. Do you think it makes a big difference? I mean, people out there listening maybe have ideas as well. 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:42.740 But do you think it makes a big difference in the success that, you know, you make guests 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:43.360 sound good? 00:20:43.360 --> 00:20:44.720 I feel like it does. 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:51.500 Because one, as a podcast listener, particularly now that I've been doing a lot of producing 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:56.700 and editing of podcasts myself, I really pick up on those ums and likes and just different 00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:57.820 verbal crutches. 00:20:57.820 --> 00:21:05.900 And I think that when the producer of the show takes the time to actually take out some 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:08.840 of those obvious bits, you can't take out every single one of them. 00:21:08.840 --> 00:21:12.460 But when you take out the majority, it really just makes the overall conversation flow a 00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:12.900 lot better. 00:21:12.900 --> 00:21:18.240 And also speaking from the perspective of guests, I've actually had a couple of guests who, before 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:24.060 they came on the show, they wanted to check and see, I might have this verbal affectation 00:21:24.060 --> 00:21:27.260 or maybe a speech impediment of some sort, be like a stutter. 00:21:27.260 --> 00:21:33.160 And knowing that we do that post-production and editing and cleaning up of the audio made 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.140 them feel a lot more comfortable coming on and like they didn't have to be as self-conscious 00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:37.380 as well. 00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:42.440 They were talking because they knew that after the episode, it would get cleaned up and it 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:48.380 would help make them sound better and more confident without them having to constantly 00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:49.940 be thinking about it during the interview. 00:21:49.940 --> 00:21:52.320 So it makes the conversation itself sound a lot better. 00:21:52.320 --> 00:21:57.400 So I definitely think that having that post-production is a valuable addition to the show. 00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:58.800 I totally agree. 00:21:58.800 --> 00:22:04.620 And even as a podcast listener and now also taking part in making a podcast, I can say, 00:22:04.620 --> 00:22:09.160 I mean, first of all, it's interesting making, I'm sure you've found this too, making a podcast 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:10.920 sensitizes you. 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:12.800 You listen in a different way, right? 00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:15.300 As someone who does this now on a regular basis. 00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:22.040 And I can tell you that even before I was a podcaster, I definitely preferred podcasts 00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:22.520 that were edited. 00:22:22.520 --> 00:22:28.080 Those podcasts that leave in every utterance and all the awkward pauses and everything like 00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:28.320 that. 00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:33.980 It just basically says, unfortunately, that the people making the podcast didn't care, right? 00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:37.760 Like didn't want to put the time in to make it a pleasant experience for me. 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:39.660 It makes me want to listen less. 00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:41.220 So I think it's hugely important. 00:22:41.540 --> 00:22:43.300 I know it's a lot of work, but I think it's hugely important. 00:22:43.300 --> 00:22:46.280 I think the podcast space is changing a lot, right? 00:22:46.280 --> 00:22:50.680 I mean, it's really starting to go mainstream in ways that it wasn't just a few years ago. 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.780 So I think what's worked in the past is going to work a little bit less well. 00:22:54.780 --> 00:22:57.480 Like just being present is not enough. 00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:58.680 You got to put in some work. 00:22:58.680 --> 00:22:59.320 Okay. 00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:00.100 Exactly. 00:23:00.100 --> 00:23:00.600 Yeah. 00:23:00.600 --> 00:23:00.880 Yeah. 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:01.440 Very interesting. 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.720 So what's it like to run a successful podcast? 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.580 Like what's your interaction with the community? 00:23:07.580 --> 00:23:09.900 What personal experiences you have from it? 00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:11.320 Like what's the story there, you guys? 00:23:11.320 --> 00:23:12.860 So sure. 00:23:12.860 --> 00:23:14.920 I think that it's great. 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.780 It's definitely changed my relationship with the community a lot and for the better. 00:23:18.780 --> 00:23:23.580 I have gotten to meet and speak with so many amazing people in the community. 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:32.220 I think the most visceral experience of how this has changed my relationship there is going to PyCon last year versus this year. 00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:38.100 So last year while I was at PyCon, I actually released our first interview episode with Thomas Hatch. 00:23:38.100 --> 00:23:43.480 I was finishing up editing it and pushing publish while I was sitting at the table during one of the lunch breaks. 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:53.800 And as a generally introverted person, it was really hard for me to go and involve myself in conversations that people were having. 00:23:53.800 --> 00:23:59.640 And so I think I really missed out a lot on the overall conference experience by not being as assertive. 00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:10.700 And now that I've been doing the podcast for over a year when I went to PyCon this time, it was just a world of difference because I had that conversation starter of, hey, how's it going? 00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:11.880 I produce this podcast. 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:12.800 Have you listened to it? 00:24:12.800 --> 00:24:13.420 What do you think? 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:25.800 Or also being able to go up to the guests on the show and say, hey, it was great having you on the show and then just be able to enter in a conversation and not have to feel self-conscious of, oh, this is this big icon in the Python community. 00:24:25.800 --> 00:24:28.800 Who am I to go interrupt them in whatever it is that they're doing? 00:24:28.800 --> 00:24:36.260 So just having that different perspective on my relationship to the community has been immensely beneficial. 00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:40.860 And then also just hearing from listeners to the show of, oh, I really like this podcast. 00:24:40.860 --> 00:24:42.200 I like what you're doing. 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:42.940 I like these guests. 00:24:42.940 --> 00:24:49.540 And also people commenting on specific episodes saying the different pieces that they liked or didn't like or disagree with. 00:24:49.540 --> 00:24:58.080 It's just great to have that dialogue and feel that I have improved their experience with the Python community as well. 00:24:58.080 --> 00:25:09.760 Also, there was one gentleman who I met at PyCon who was saying that through listening to the podcast and listening, he said he powered through all the back episodes. 00:25:09.760 --> 00:25:17.400 And now he's doing a lot more data science work as a result because of the fact that he found these interesting topics through the different interviews that we've done on the show. 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.840 And that's just very impactful to me personally. 00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:23.000 I definitely have had similar experiences like that. 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.680 And I think it's very, very rewarding. 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:26.080 Chris? 00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:27.860 Yeah, no, I totally agree. 00:25:27.860 --> 00:25:30.120 I sadly have not been to PyCon yet. 00:25:30.120 --> 00:25:31.320 This year it's going to happen. 00:25:31.320 --> 00:25:36.180 But I've definitely had some of the same experiences locally in the Boston Python scene. 00:25:36.180 --> 00:25:41.220 It's been great to talk to people and get that response of, oh, you're involved with that podcast. 00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:56.640 And it really is a very rewarding experience to say nothing of the fact that I've had the opportunity to meet, at least online, these amazing people like, as Tobias has said, Thomas Hatch and Reuben Lerner and all these other great folks. 00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:06.300 But also, in addition to that, I definitely feel that the podcast has had a net positive effect in the community, at least in some small ways. 00:26:06.300 --> 00:26:18.680 Jonathan Slenders, Jonathan Slenders, Jonathan Slenders. 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:19.360 Jonathan Slenders. 00:26:19.360 --> 00:26:21.120 With Prompt Toolkit. 00:26:21.620 --> 00:26:22.120 Exactly. 00:26:22.120 --> 00:26:22.620 Thank you. 00:26:22.620 --> 00:26:22.620 Thank you. 00:26:22.620 --> 00:26:22.620 Thank you. 00:26:22.620 --> 00:26:23.860 The Python Prompt Toolkit. 00:26:23.860 --> 00:26:26.160 With all the great work that he's done with that. 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.440 And then we ended up talking to the IPython folks. 00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:35.080 And they're talking about how they were having problems with their code aspect to their code running on Windows. 00:26:35.080 --> 00:26:37.600 And, you know, they were talking to Jonathan Slenders. 00:26:37.600 --> 00:26:47.960 And I just feel like it's been really great to sort of see and maybe even to an extent help the various disparate parts of our community that might not have been talking to each other come together. 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.440 So it's been really rewarding in tons of ways. 00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:51.640 Yeah, that's cool. 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.660 I definitely feel like our podcasts, taken as a whole, do that. 00:26:56.900 --> 00:27:08.360 They sort of, you know, instead of living in your silos, right, of web developer, data science, whatever, I think it sort of spreads the experience and the people and the stories around. 00:27:08.360 --> 00:27:09.060 So that's cool. 00:27:09.060 --> 00:27:14.420 If somebody came to you and said, hey, I'm thinking about starting a podcast, what would you recommend it to them? 00:27:14.420 --> 00:27:15.280 What would you say? 00:27:15.280 --> 00:27:18.600 I would say that it's a great experience. 00:27:18.600 --> 00:27:24.660 The first thing I would say is make sure that you have a topic that you really care about and that you're not just doing it for some other motive. 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:33.180 Because if you don't truly care about the content that you're producing, then it's really easy to just put out a couple episodes and give up. 00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:45.320 And also just make sure that you're not too niched down because then it might make it difficult to find guests unless your format is to just do episodes where you're just talking directly to the audience. 00:27:45.320 --> 00:27:50.620 In which case, as long as you have enough subject material to cover, by all means, do it. 00:27:50.620 --> 00:27:51.780 It's a great experience. 00:27:51.780 --> 00:27:54.380 It definitely takes time and it definitely takes effort. 00:27:54.380 --> 00:28:00.320 So I don't want anybody to have the illusion that it's just this thing that you can do real quick and easy. 00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:08.160 Because if you really want to have an engaging podcast and have it enjoyable to your listeners, then it does take a fair bit of effort. 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.280 We were joking about going back and listening to our old episodes. 00:28:11.280 --> 00:28:13.420 Yeah, definitely. 00:28:13.420 --> 00:28:14.540 Oh, the pain. 00:28:15.140 --> 00:28:15.440 Yeah. 00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:23.360 From the beginning of the show, we've had a number of people who commented on the fact that our audio quality was not up to par. 00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:25.900 And we've been steadily working on improving that. 00:28:25.900 --> 00:28:32.120 And so that's another thing to focus on as you're first getting out is make sure that you have decent recording capability. 00:28:32.120 --> 00:28:33.960 So don't use your laptop mic. 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:35.420 It's not going to sound very good. 00:28:35.660 --> 00:28:44.040 Get at least a cheap USB mic or a USB headset with a microphone on it because it's going to drastically improve your audio quality. 00:28:44.040 --> 00:28:49.760 And also make sure that when you're recording that you're using the microphone you think you are. 00:28:50.260 --> 00:28:54.800 Because I did go and buy a nice USB microphone from the first episode. 00:28:54.800 --> 00:29:05.560 But because of the vagaries of audio settings in Linux, I didn't realize that I was still using the internal laptop microphone for the first little while until I was digging around trying to figure out a different issue. 00:29:05.560 --> 00:29:07.040 And I was going to say, oh, whoops. 00:29:07.040 --> 00:29:07.640 Wait a minute. 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:08.960 This sounds really different. 00:29:11.340 --> 00:29:11.900 Definitely. 00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:12.300 Definitely. 00:29:12.300 --> 00:29:13.740 A good microphone is key. 00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:23.300 And the thing is, what Tobias said, definitely recognize that it's not as straightforward as it seems, but it is easy and straightforward to get started. 00:29:23.300 --> 00:29:29.500 And if you have the topic and you have the desire, then you definitely should start, right? 00:29:29.500 --> 00:29:37.440 Because it is definitely the kind of thing that you will learn a lot as you progress, but everybody has to start somewhere. 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:50.280 And even if the first episode or two is painful, and I personally, no offense to Tobias, think ours or at least our first episode is oh so painful, you know, that we made the mistake of using an actual script like word for word. 00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:52.740 And we sound like this. 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:57.660 But definitely do get started because there's no place to go but up. 00:29:57.660 --> 00:30:05.340 And after a while, you know, you'll definitely feel more accomplished and your audience will reward you with lots of positive feedback. 00:30:05.340 --> 00:30:06.860 And it's just, it's totally worth it. 00:30:07.060 --> 00:30:07.560 Yeah, that's cool. 00:30:07.560 --> 00:30:15.660 So speaking of rewarding experiences and conversations, what are some of your most popular episodes that you've had? 00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:16.340 Sure. 00:30:16.340 --> 00:30:16.840 Yeah. 00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:20.260 So I was just looking at our download statistics this morning. 00:30:20.700 --> 00:30:31.440 And from all time, our top five most downloaded episodes, unsurprisingly, are from towards the beginning, because they've had a longer time for people to find and download them. 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:39.280 But they're episode three with the Kivi developers, episode 10 with Brian Granger and Fernando Perez of iPython. 00:30:39.280 --> 00:30:47.740 Episode 12 with Eric Schlesz talking about using Python and data science to fight human trafficking with the New York District Attorney's Office. 00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:48.980 Yeah, that was an interesting one. 00:30:48.980 --> 00:30:50.660 Yeah, that was a good episode. 00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:58.880 Episode five with Ned Batchelder talking about how to build a healthy community because he's one of the organizers for the Boston Python meetup group. 00:30:59.820 --> 00:31:11.020 And episode four with Travis Oliphant, who is the CEO of Continuum Analytics, as well as the original author of NumPy and SciPy and a number of other things that he has had his hands in over the years. 00:31:11.020 --> 00:31:12.080 Yeah, that's definitely growing. 00:31:12.320 --> 00:31:16.760 So if you use Anaconda, the Anaconda distribution, for example, that's Travis and his crew. 00:31:16.760 --> 00:31:17.120 Exactly. 00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:17.520 Yeah. 00:31:17.520 --> 00:31:36.360 And taken from just this year, 2016, most of our top five are episode 38 about algorithmic trading with Scott Sanderson, talking about how Python is used in Quantopian to facilitate their platform for people to experiment with stock data and figure out how to build trading algorithms. 00:31:37.120 --> 00:31:42.280 Episode 46 with Matthew Rocklin and Alexander Skipinovsky about functional Python. 00:31:42.280 --> 00:31:48.780 So talking about their work with a couple of different libraries for facilitating functional style programming in Python. 00:31:48.780 --> 00:31:54.860 Episode 52 with David McEver about Hypothesis, which is a property based testing framework. 00:31:54.860 --> 00:31:56.000 Hypothesis is amazing. 00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:59.940 I just literally finished talking to him before talking to you guys. 00:31:59.940 --> 00:32:01.860 And that's an amazing project. 00:32:01.860 --> 00:32:05.460 So, yeah, it's pretty incredible what he's done with it. 00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:19.560 And particularly given the fact that it was inspired by tool from Haskell and by virtue of some of the different features of Python, he's actually been able to add features that the original implementation doesn't have the option of adding. 00:32:19.560 --> 00:32:21.280 So it's pretty amazing what he's done there. 00:32:22.060 --> 00:32:30.320 And then episode 42 talking about Simpai and episode 45 talking about Cython. 00:32:30.320 --> 00:32:31.480 Yeah, who was the guest on that one? 00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:35.580 That was Craig Citro and Robert Bradshaw. 00:32:35.580 --> 00:32:36.300 Okay, cool. 00:32:36.300 --> 00:32:39.100 Yeah, those are all amazing topics, right? 00:32:39.100 --> 00:32:40.200 Yeah, definitely. 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:44.980 They've all been really interesting conversations, really great people to talk to. 00:32:44.980 --> 00:32:47.140 And I definitely learned a lot in each of those. 00:32:48.100 --> 00:32:54.520 Chris, if you could just recommend like one episode, if people are listening to this and they're like, hey, I haven't heard this podcast and that thing. 00:32:54.520 --> 00:32:56.940 Is there one episode you'd recommend they start with? 00:32:57.340 --> 00:33:00.460 So it really kind of depends upon who they are, right? 00:33:00.460 --> 00:33:10.580 Like if they're like, as a for instance, I even pointed my mother in law at the Eric Schless fighting human trafficking episode, because there's there's technology bits in there. 00:33:10.580 --> 00:33:13.560 But I feel like it's just this, I don't want to toot our own horn. 00:33:13.660 --> 00:33:22.540 But there's this amazing human story about this, this man who just sort of like became outraged at the injustice of what was going on. 00:33:22.540 --> 00:33:26.540 And, you know, he's a technologist and he fights it with technology. 00:33:26.540 --> 00:33:31.480 And I just thought it was a really great story that anybody can listen to and appreciate. 00:33:32.300 --> 00:33:35.320 So I would say that's one of my favorites. 00:33:35.320 --> 00:33:55.560 And my other favorite is the Kivi episode, just because I feel like Kivi is this really unique kind of interesting thing that has so many really interesting applications from games to these sort of crazy, you know, interactive museum exhibits to mobile, you know, applications. 00:33:55.560 --> 00:33:58.700 And it's just a really cool piece of technology. 00:33:58.700 --> 00:33:59.520 Yeah, that's cool. 00:33:59.520 --> 00:34:04.040 Kivi is kind of opening up a space that's been mostly out of reach for Python. 00:34:04.040 --> 00:34:06.280 Yeah, it's a very cool project. 00:34:06.280 --> 00:34:12.780 Another interesting bit came out of that episode was while we were speaking with the develop with some of the core developers. 00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:21.180 They mentioned that that was actually the first time that any of them had actually spoken to each other via voice and that all of their previous interaction had just been through issue trackers. 00:34:21.180 --> 00:34:21.560 Wow. 00:34:21.560 --> 00:34:23.440 Yeah, that happens, right? 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:30.080 Like there's so many people collaborating and it's really, you know, you drop in, you got this feature or whatever, right? 00:34:30.080 --> 00:34:31.980 It's definitely I can see how that happens. 00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:34.120 OK, so what do you guys have on deck? 00:34:34.120 --> 00:34:35.480 What's coming up? 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:38.360 We've actually actually just to circle back a bit. 00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:41.840 One rec if I could recommend one episode people listen to. 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:53.100 I had to think about this for a little while, but I would probably say the episode about the PEP process because it is very entertaining because the guests we have on had a great sense of humor. 00:34:53.100 --> 00:34:53.700 Oh, they were funny. 00:34:53.700 --> 00:34:55.200 And they all played off really well with each other. 00:34:55.200 --> 00:34:55.400 Yeah. 00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:03.400 And it's also just a really great dive into a lot of the early history of Python and how some of the different aspects of the community came to be. 00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:20.800 So I really recommend that for anybody who's coming into Python, both because the PEP process is pretty foundational in how Python has evolved over the years and has maintained a good trajectory, but also just because the people on the show and the stories on the show are very entertaining. 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:21.700 Yeah, that's cool. 00:35:21.700 --> 00:35:22.600 I haven't heard that one. 00:35:22.600 --> 00:35:23.180 I'll have to check it out. 00:35:23.180 --> 00:35:24.680 That was episode 37, though, right? 00:35:25.160 --> 00:35:25.840 Yes, it was. 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:26.400 It was. 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:26.660 Okay. 00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:28.680 And that's, I want to second that one. 00:35:28.680 --> 00:35:30.020 That's a really, really good one. 00:35:30.020 --> 00:35:41.240 Not just for the reasons Tobias outlined, but because I feel like, you know, this idea of how does a, how does a language, a programming language community, or even a community in particular, right? 00:35:41.240 --> 00:35:43.280 Sort of control its evolution. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:36:02.820 How does a single entity, a single piece of technology like Python, say, help to guide its own change, evolution, when there are so many disparate communities wanting so many different things out of it and trying potentially to move it in so many different directions? 00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:07.340 How does it retain its, if you're going to forgive me for saying so, soul, right? 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:16.780 Like, how does Python stay Pythonic as opposed to becoming yet another sort of programming language that has kind of, you know, that's kind of all over the place. 00:36:16.780 --> 00:36:20.960 And I feel like these guys really thought really hard about this. 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:26.540 And they were the first to say the answers that they came up with are not perfect, but they've worked pretty darn well. 00:36:26.540 --> 00:36:36.780 And I think that some of the things that makes Python awesome, make Python awesome, pardon me, are a direct result of the choices that they made and the outgrowth of that process. 00:36:37.020 --> 00:36:40.140 So I think that episode is required listening. 00:36:40.140 --> 00:36:50.340 Even if you're not a Python fan, if you're just sort of like somebody who cares deeply about open source, I feel like it's a really great episode to give you some ideas on how to do things right. 00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:50.640 Okay. 00:36:50.640 --> 00:36:51.900 Yeah, that's really cool. 00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:57.760 Like, we're just now seeing the fruits of those processes put in place so long ago, right? 00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.720 As it continues to grow and evolve. 00:36:59.720 --> 00:37:00.560 Absolutely. 00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:01.040 Yeah. 00:37:01.040 --> 00:37:02.120 How interesting. 00:37:06.700 --> 00:37:23.200 Gone are the days of tweaking your server, merging your code, and just hoping it works in your production environment. 00:37:23.380 --> 00:37:33.120 With SnapCI's cloud-based, hosted, continuous delivery tool, you simply do a git push, and they auto-detect and run all the necessary tests through their multi-stage pipelines. 00:37:33.120 --> 00:37:34.420 Something fails? 00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:36.640 You can even debug it directly in the browser. 00:37:36.640 --> 00:37:44.600 With a one-click deployment that you can do from your desk or from 30,000 feet in the air, Snap offers flexibility and ease of mind. 00:37:44.600 --> 00:37:46.420 Imagine all the time you'll save. 00:37:47.220 --> 00:37:53.220 Thanks, SnapCI, for sponsoring this episode by trying them for free at snap.ci slash talkpython. 00:38:01.140 --> 00:38:06.240 So, Chris, sadly, we missed you at PyCon, but Tobias and I, we got to hang out there. 00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:09.180 So, what was your impression of the conference, Tobias? 00:38:09.180 --> 00:38:12.820 I thought it was, one, I had a great time. 00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:24.280 I ended up skipping most of the talk sessions because I got so embroiled in conversations at the expo floor, just with some pretty amazing people, both past guests and people who I had never met before. 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:34.560 And we had a really great breakout session of just talking about our podcast with people who have listened to one or both of our shows. 00:38:34.560 --> 00:38:37.360 Yeah, and thanks to everybody who came to that open session that you set up. 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:38.360 That was cool to meet them all. 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:38.700 Yeah, absolutely. 00:38:38.700 --> 00:38:40.360 And the feedback they gave us was good, yeah? 00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:46.780 Yeah, it was great to just have that face-to-face interaction and be able to ask direct questions and get their immediate feedback. 00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:56.480 Because it's really tough to get that same sense of connection just by emails or Twitter or even the discourse forum that we set up. 00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:07.540 So, being able to have people say, oh, this is what I like about this particular format or this is something that you might consider doing as a topic or as a particular approach to producing the podcast. 00:39:07.540 --> 00:39:09.320 So, that was a lot of fun. 00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:28.600 I actually, as a result of that, coming up in a couple of weeks, we're going to be interviewing one of the gentlemen who was part of that session to talk about test engineering and Python, of how Python is used in testing of large-scale systems, and also where the gaps are in the tooling available. 00:39:28.600 --> 00:39:40.160 So, not necessarily large-scale software systems could even be things like mechanical engineering or electrical engineering, but how Python is used in those contexts and where it might fall flat. 00:39:40.160 --> 00:39:42.080 So, that'll be a good interview. 00:39:42.080 --> 00:39:56.980 And then going broader about PyCon itself, I think there's been a lot of focus on how to improve some of the tooling around Python because we have a lot of great tooling, but there are also some areas where we have some gaps. 00:39:56.980 --> 00:40:00.820 And I think a lot of people are working to identify those and try to remediate them. 00:40:00.820 --> 00:40:07.460 So, we had Alex Gaynor give a talk about this is the tooling that we are missing or this is the tooling that we need. 00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:16.060 There's also a great talk about the update framework as a way to add verifiability and security to the package installation process. 00:40:16.060 --> 00:40:18.500 So, I recommend people check out that talk. 00:40:18.500 --> 00:40:25.500 And there's also been a lot of interest in figuring out how do we make Python more parallel or concurrent or performant. 00:40:26.340 --> 00:40:28.700 And so, for instance, we had the talk about the gillectomy. 00:40:28.700 --> 00:40:30.620 The gillectomy. 00:40:30.620 --> 00:40:35.060 That's the global interpreter lock. 00:40:35.060 --> 00:40:58.420 I also had the opportunity to overhear and take part in a conversation with Van Lindbergh and a couple of other people at the conference about some ideas about how we might borrow some of the approaches that Rust has taken with memory ownership and borrow checking. 00:40:58.420 --> 00:41:05.060 And how we might try to implement that in Python as a way to get better parallelism and better concurrency. 00:41:05.060 --> 00:41:09.580 So, just a lot of different themes going on in those directions. 00:41:09.580 --> 00:41:11.680 So, I thought that was really interesting. 00:41:11.680 --> 00:41:15.240 So, it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few iterations of Python. 00:41:15.240 --> 00:41:22.640 There's also, in terms of performance, there's the pigeon project that Dino Veland and Brett Cannon are working on. 00:41:22.640 --> 00:41:28.740 We both had episodes about that, but also they did a presentation at PyCon about that. 00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.580 And it sounds like they're on track to have that merged into the 3.6 release. 00:41:32.580 --> 00:41:34.260 So, it'll be interesting to see what comes of that. 00:41:34.260 --> 00:41:34.780 Really? 00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:35.940 That is fantastic. 00:41:35.940 --> 00:41:37.040 Yeah, that's fantastic. 00:41:37.040 --> 00:41:37.500 Okay. 00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:44.940 Chris, I know you couldn't be there, but did you check out youtube.com slash PyCon 2016 and find anything you like there? 00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:46.920 One of the keynotes looked really good. 00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:50.080 I honestly haven't had a chance to spend much time on it yet. 00:41:50.080 --> 00:41:57.080 I've been so busy ramping up with my relatively new job that there's tons of material I've had to watch for that. 00:41:57.080 --> 00:41:58.840 So, thank God for YouTube. 00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:01.340 And I'm definitely going to see a bunch of the talks, no question. 00:42:01.340 --> 00:42:02.120 Yeah, awesome. 00:42:02.120 --> 00:42:05.960 Tobias, if you could pick one talk, is there one that was your favorite? 00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:11.340 I think the one that had me the most floored was definitely the closing keynote by K. Lars Lawn. 00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:13.360 Complexity in the Art of the Left Turn. 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:20.780 Because just his presentation and the mixed media approach to it was just very engrossing and visceral. 00:42:20.780 --> 00:42:24.780 And particularly being in the room while he was presenting it is just a great experience. 00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:28.240 I recommend anybody go watch that talk, even if you don't do Python. 00:42:28.240 --> 00:42:30.300 It is just very well put together. 00:42:30.300 --> 00:42:30.980 I totally agree. 00:42:30.980 --> 00:42:34.360 I felt like I was in the presence of a renaissance genius. 00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:35.680 Absolutely. 00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:40.680 Seriously, it was like, okay, there's this amazing live music performance. 00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:44.040 Here's this biking videography thing that's amazing. 00:42:44.040 --> 00:42:44.800 Here's software. 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:45.600 There's mathematics. 00:42:45.600 --> 00:42:46.360 Here's philosophy. 00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:47.820 It was just like, holy moly. 00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:49.140 That's crazy. 00:42:49.140 --> 00:42:50.400 So, yeah, I suck at that. 00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:51.000 That was awesome. 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:51.960 Yeah, definitely. 00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:57.360 I'm going to have to see if I can try and get him on the show sometime because I think he would be a great person to talk to. 00:42:57.560 --> 00:43:01.140 Just in general, even regardless of anything having to do with Python. 00:43:01.140 --> 00:43:03.300 I think he's probably got some pretty amazing stories. 00:43:03.300 --> 00:43:04.020 Yeah, yeah. 00:43:04.020 --> 00:43:04.620 I'm sure. 00:43:04.620 --> 00:43:05.360 I'm sure. 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:06.780 All right. 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:08.980 Let's talk website infrastructure a little bit. 00:43:08.980 --> 00:43:14.180 So, running a podcast actually is something of an infrastructure project. 00:43:14.580 --> 00:43:16.260 What do you guys use there? 00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:22.940 So, right now we're using the Pelican static site generator for posting all of the show notes. 00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:26.700 We use a service called Podbean for hosting the media and generating the feed. 00:43:26.900 --> 00:43:31.020 So, they handle the majority of the bandwidth and shipping MP3s and things like that? 00:43:31.020 --> 00:43:31.160 Yep. 00:43:31.160 --> 00:43:31.560 Okay. 00:43:31.560 --> 00:43:32.040 Exactly. 00:43:32.040 --> 00:43:32.560 Yeah. 00:43:32.560 --> 00:43:37.960 So, that's been good for getting started because it means that we just have one fixed monthly cost. 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:44.600 We don't have to worry about any spikes in downloads, potentially increasing our cost structure. 00:43:44.600 --> 00:43:50.320 So, just being able to just throw it all at them and say, okay, I don't have to think about it anymore. 00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:51.940 I just click a few buttons here. 00:43:52.220 --> 00:44:00.480 But now that we're starting to grow and trying to do some other things with the podcast, it's starting to become a little bit restrictive because of the fact that it's a hosted offering. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.080 I can't be like, hey, can you just do this one little thing for me? 00:44:03.080 --> 00:44:15.820 And also not having complete access to all of the data to do different analysis or maybe add some additional metrics into it is starting to become something that I would like to be able to have more control over. 00:44:15.820 --> 00:44:19.920 So, I'm thinking about potentially moving us to another offering. 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:29.280 And, you know, there's always this tension of just use something off the shelf that does most of what you need to do versus the not invented here syndrome of I really want to build it myself. 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.820 And I want to make sure that it's built in Python. 00:44:31.180 --> 00:44:38.840 But not having the time to be able to dedicate to making sure that it's done well and robust and has all the different features that I want. 00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:56.440 So, right now I'm actually looking to most likely set up a WordPress site using one of their podcasting plugins to get some better dynamicism and some other features that we can use to make the website and the overall production process a little bit smoother and easier to manage. 00:44:56.440 --> 00:45:07.320 And also get closer control over the feed generation and the statistics gathering, particularly because I've had a couple of listeners request an OGG format for the show. 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:20.720 And with the host that we have right now, there's no capability of having different feeds for different media types, whereas pretty much all the WordPress plugins have that as a first built right in. 00:45:20.720 --> 00:45:21.060 Okay. 00:45:21.060 --> 00:45:21.860 Yeah, that's cool. 00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:41.240 I think, you know, I sort of asked you about that partly directly because it's interesting, but also I think just anybody building some kind of online presence, whether it be for podcasting or something else, there is always this tension of, hey, if I grab these building blocks that are like put together for me, I could probably be up and running in a week. 00:45:41.720 --> 00:45:52.480 But then you kind of are in the same box as everyone else and it's hard to look different or like you say, do something special on a request like, hey, we have an OGG format now. 00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.140 So, boom, this is the URL or whatever, right? 00:45:55.420 --> 00:46:01.900 It's one of those things where I have no doubt that both Tobias and I could be essentially taken up. 00:46:01.900 --> 00:46:11.140 I don't want to say employed because it wouldn't pay anything, but full time or close to full time in terms of writing software for the podcast and building content for the podcast. 00:46:11.140 --> 00:46:12.720 And we would love to do that. 00:46:12.720 --> 00:46:17.360 And maybe if we can keep at this until we retire, maybe one day we'll have time for that. 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:27.440 But when you work a very full time job, it's tough to get the time to do all of the fun sort of side hobby work that you would like to do. 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:27.720 Sure. 00:46:27.720 --> 00:46:28.780 That's an interesting point. 00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:42.720 Like, given that you start from already being busy and this is like a thing that you're going to do on the side, which is how both of us started, it's almost like it made it possible, right? 00:46:43.200 --> 00:46:47.560 Like you were able to say, look, if we do this, it's actually not inhibitive to get started. 00:46:47.560 --> 00:46:48.500 Yeah, exactly. 00:46:48.500 --> 00:46:59.260 And because I already have a full time role, I don't have to worry about whether or not this is going to be massively successful and pay off my bills for me because it was never about paying the bills. 00:46:59.260 --> 00:47:01.080 It was just this is something that I really want to do. 00:47:01.080 --> 00:47:02.900 It's something that will be fun and beneficial. 00:47:02.900 --> 00:47:06.180 So even if it falls flat, well, hey, I'm still having fun. 00:47:06.180 --> 00:47:07.700 I don't care if I only have five listeners. 00:47:07.700 --> 00:47:08.420 Yeah. 00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:10.540 Fortunately, we have a lot more than that. 00:47:10.540 --> 00:47:11.360 Yes. 00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:12.680 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:47:12.680 --> 00:47:13.320 Yeah. 00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:28.720 Not having the podcast be a make or break situation has really allowed us to be more judicious and liberal with our selection of topics and just the overall approach we take to producing it. 00:47:28.720 --> 00:47:29.420 Yeah. 00:47:29.420 --> 00:47:29.660 Okay. 00:47:29.660 --> 00:47:29.960 Yeah. 00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:30.500 Very good point. 00:47:31.140 --> 00:47:40.600 So speaking of podcasts, we all all three of us started podcasting because we were interested in listening to podcasts and we love the stories. 00:47:40.600 --> 00:47:46.200 I think there's something super special about the relationship that you have with podcast hosts. 00:47:46.200 --> 00:47:48.000 And I don't really totally understand it. 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.360 But there's a lot of shows that I've listened to for many years. 00:47:50.360 --> 00:47:57.940 I feel really like I really know the people who are the hosts and like almost personally connected to them, even if I've not met. 00:47:57.940 --> 00:48:00.200 I think this relationship with podcast is really interesting. 00:48:00.200 --> 00:48:02.920 What do you guys have some that you really enjoy listening to that you like? 00:48:04.060 --> 00:48:04.180 Yeah. 00:48:04.180 --> 00:48:10.920 So some of the ones that a few of these are ones that I started listening to recently and I really enjoyed some of them listening to for a while. 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:14.240 But one that I just picked up recently is called Curious Minds. 00:48:14.240 --> 00:48:17.480 And there have been some pretty amazing topics on that. 00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:33.800 So one of the ones that was a two part series about the Indo-European language and how linguists have been able to combine languages from different areas to reconstruct this language that was lost to history because there were no written records of it. 00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:38.740 And there was no real historical record of who these people even were or what their culture was like. 00:48:38.740 --> 00:48:56.660 But by virtue of being able to understand how language mutates over time and how different mutations happen in different cultures, recombine those mutations to construct what the language actually sounded like and what some of the original word roots are for similar words. 00:48:56.660 --> 00:49:06.460 So, for instance, things like heart and cardio come from the same original word root, but because they came to English through different routes, they have much different sounds. 00:49:06.460 --> 00:49:12.740 And by being able to trace back those mutations, they figured out, oh, this is what the original root word is. 00:49:12.740 --> 00:49:16.220 This is some of the cultural aspects of this society. 00:49:16.220 --> 00:49:17.740 That was just amazing. 00:49:17.740 --> 00:49:18.560 Oh, nice. 00:49:18.560 --> 00:49:18.960 Yeah. 00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:27.820 Another really great podcast is Hidden Brain, just because it talks a lot about the different mental processes that happen in different situations. 00:49:27.820 --> 00:49:36.940 And it just really makes you think more about what is happening in your mind as you're doing your different day to day activities. 00:49:36.940 --> 00:49:37.460 Yeah. 00:49:37.460 --> 00:49:41.960 A lot of what we do is not quite autopilot, but it's not at the level of consciousness. 00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:45.660 The things that we're influenced by or quick decisions we make or whatever. 00:49:45.660 --> 00:49:45.920 Yeah. 00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:46.660 Okay, cool. 00:49:46.660 --> 00:49:47.020 What else? 00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:49.000 Another one is Data Skeptic. 00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:55.260 So, it's a podcast about data science, but from the perspective of scientific skepticism. 00:49:55.260 --> 00:50:07.540 So, rather than just toot the horn of, hey, data science is great, just really making people understand that in order to be able to have a healthy relationship with data science, we need to maintain proper skepticism. 00:50:07.540 --> 00:50:15.480 Because it's very easy to lose the scientific process in the midst of all of this fanfare of how great data science and big data can be. 00:50:15.680 --> 00:50:17.500 So, I think he does a good job of that. 00:50:17.500 --> 00:50:17.660 Yeah. 00:50:17.660 --> 00:50:20.860 It's a booming industry, like one of the fastest growing parts of Python. 00:50:20.860 --> 00:50:23.820 So, it's easy to get caught up in the hoorah of it, right? 00:50:24.300 --> 00:50:24.520 Yeah. 00:50:24.520 --> 00:50:27.760 Another really great show is TED Radio Hour. 00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:37.300 Because, you know, it's hard to be able to surface all the bits that are relevant to you. 00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:45.280 Or because there are so many different videos and topics out there, it's kind of easy to just get deer in the headlights approach when you first go to the website of, I don't know what to listen to. 00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:52.400 And so, TED Radio Hour does a really good job of distilling a lot of different subjects and talks into an hour-long episode. 00:50:52.760 --> 00:51:01.120 And it also goes a bit behind the scenes with some of the people who are presenting those talks of some more about their story and how they came about that particular subject. 00:51:01.120 --> 00:51:02.860 So, that's a really great show to listen to. 00:51:02.860 --> 00:51:10.360 And for a bit of levity, I always enjoy listening to Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me Every Week, which is just a comedy news show. 00:51:10.580 --> 00:51:18.600 So, they take headlines from the week's news and it's a quiz show, but all of the panelists are comedians in various forms. 00:51:18.600 --> 00:51:21.360 And it's just wildly entertaining. 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:28.580 So, if anybody hasn't ever listened to it before, I highly recommend it because it's great for a laugh at the end of the week. 00:51:28.580 --> 00:51:29.200 Yeah, that's cool. 00:51:29.200 --> 00:51:30.420 Chris, how about you? 00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:39.200 So, my favorite podcast of all time, like if I was asked, you're going to be stranded on a desert island, you get one podcast you can listen to, it would be 99% invisible. 00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:42.180 You have one RSS feed that will ship to the island. 00:51:42.180 --> 00:51:43.180 Which one were you? 00:51:43.180 --> 00:51:44.480 Exactly, exactly. 00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:44.920 So, okay. 00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:45.700 It's like lost. 00:51:45.700 --> 00:51:47.780 Somehow this one feed gets through. 00:51:47.780 --> 00:51:48.120 Yes. 00:51:48.120 --> 00:51:50.260 So, 99% invisible. 00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:50.580 Yeah. 00:51:50.580 --> 00:51:52.580 So, these guys, Roman Mars is the host. 00:51:52.580 --> 00:51:55.120 And these guys are amazing. 00:51:55.120 --> 00:51:56.520 And Gert, you know, and ladies. 00:51:56.520 --> 00:52:20.700 It's just the topics that they cover run the gamut from this little crossing dude icon that was hugely popular in East Germany that now has become this almost folk meme that they're trying to popularize and save now that the old East Germany is kind of getting lost in the West to the story of revolving doors or the story of barcodes. 00:52:20.700 --> 00:52:34.820 And they just, they have such an amazing way of telling stories and giving you the sense of wonder that, you know, goes along with these new inventions like, okay, it's a revolving door. 00:52:34.820 --> 00:52:35.320 Big deal. 00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:36.780 It's actually kind of a big deal. 00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:40.060 And if you listen to the episode on it, you'll understand why. 00:52:40.060 --> 00:52:42.060 So, I really, really love that show. 00:52:42.060 --> 00:52:43.540 I can't gush enough about it. 00:52:43.540 --> 00:52:47.120 My next podcast is one that's a little geekier. 00:52:47.120 --> 00:52:48.720 It's called Risky Business. 00:52:48.720 --> 00:52:51.820 And it's about information security. 00:52:51.820 --> 00:52:59.180 But what's great about this show, and I think everybody who works in technology should listen to it because it's very accessible. 00:52:59.180 --> 00:53:03.940 Like, you do not have to be an infosec nerd in order to even appreciate this show. 00:53:03.940 --> 00:53:05.140 It's funny. 00:53:05.140 --> 00:53:09.400 The host and co-host are hilarious at various points. 00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:17.280 And it's also really incredibly informative in that they really tell some of the breaking stories in the infosec world. 00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:26.720 Like, the fact that, you know, in Bangladesh, you know, criminals were able to get away with, like, 26 million by hacking the Swift network. 00:53:26.720 --> 00:53:28.060 You know, it's just an example. 00:53:28.060 --> 00:53:29.880 Yeah, I've listened to that podcast as well. 00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:31.000 And I definitely second it. 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:33.120 I really enjoy listening to those guys. 00:53:33.120 --> 00:53:38.260 I think they tell – it's like kind of like the headlines of the week in security and hacking and whatnot. 00:53:38.260 --> 00:53:40.120 And it's really well done. 00:53:40.120 --> 00:53:45.580 And, you know, part of that Swift story you talked about is they almost got away with $1 billion somewhere. 00:53:45.580 --> 00:53:46.140 I know it. 00:53:46.200 --> 00:53:47.400 In Southeast Asia. 00:53:47.400 --> 00:53:49.240 But they misspelled something. 00:53:49.240 --> 00:53:51.000 And it tipped off. 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:51.280 Yes. 00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:52.000 Like, could you remember? 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:55.480 That's like really losing the world spelling bee right there, man. 00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:56.740 Exactly. 00:53:56.740 --> 00:53:57.340 Exactly. 00:53:57.340 --> 00:54:01.360 That is the classic if they had only moment. 00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:02.180 Because can you imagine that? 00:54:02.180 --> 00:54:02.940 A billion dollars. 00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:03.880 It's just – it's insane. 00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:04.260 Yeah. 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:04.600 Wow. 00:54:04.600 --> 00:54:05.060 Yeah. 00:54:05.060 --> 00:54:05.660 So, recommended. 00:54:05.660 --> 00:54:05.960 Yeah. 00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:06.920 That's a great podcast. 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:09.360 So, my next pick is a little more obscure. 00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.060 But I think it's really, really good. 00:54:11.060 --> 00:54:16.960 I think it's one of those podcasts where the name would mislead you into thinking it's something different than it is. 00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:19.060 It's called Rational Security. 00:54:19.060 --> 00:54:20.360 And it's really interesting. 00:54:20.360 --> 00:54:25.680 It is this podcast with this bunch of folks from – largely from the Brookings Institute. 00:54:25.680 --> 00:54:27.660 I think there's one journalist with them as well. 00:54:27.660 --> 00:54:38.280 Talking about current events but with a – the angle of talking about it from the security interest of the United States standpoint. 00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:41.600 And it's really, really, really interesting and insightful. 00:54:41.600 --> 00:54:47.420 And they cover politics and international events and, as I say, current events. 00:54:47.420 --> 00:54:51.120 They come up with some really insightful things on current events. 00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:53.560 I wish I could remember that quote because it's a really good one. 00:54:53.560 --> 00:55:00.400 But these guys are – if you're interested in sort of analysis, you can't go wrong. 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:01.360 It's really great stuff. 00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:05.480 My next pick is a podcast called Hardcore History. 00:55:05.660 --> 00:55:13.280 The gentleman who runs this, Dan Carlin, I believe, used to be a correspondent for CBS for years and years and years. 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:15.460 And that really shows through. 00:55:15.460 --> 00:55:21.360 It is his sort of tour of various topics in history. 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:24.540 It's long, but it's not boring. 00:55:24.540 --> 00:55:26.520 It's incredibly accessible. 00:55:26.520 --> 00:55:30.440 He's really, really an incredibly masterful storyteller. 00:55:30.500 --> 00:55:36.320 And he covers, like – he just finished a – I want to say it was five-part series on World War I. 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:42.420 And if you're interested in history, it's really – I think it's some of the best content out there. 00:55:42.420 --> 00:55:44.240 It's really worth looking into. 00:55:44.240 --> 00:55:54.220 My last pick is, and not least, the Ruby Rogues because I personally credit them for getting me interested in the idea of doing a podcast. 00:55:54.640 --> 00:56:10.680 From my perspective, their podcast was one of the places where I said, wow, you know, these folks really do a great job at telling technical stories and making it accessible and really making it interesting and something that I look forward to every week. 00:56:10.680 --> 00:56:12.580 And they're still going strong. 00:56:12.580 --> 00:56:16.640 They've changed out their hosts a few times, their panelists a few times. 00:56:16.640 --> 00:56:19.700 But they're still talking about interesting topics. 00:56:19.700 --> 00:56:25.200 And they're more interesting for me these days because a lot of the times they're not actually talking about Ruby. 00:56:25.200 --> 00:56:29.440 They're talking about general sort of computer science topics, which I find fascinating. 00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:30.140 That's it for me. 00:56:30.140 --> 00:56:30.420 Okay. 00:56:30.420 --> 00:56:32.280 Those are some great recommendations, guys. 00:56:32.280 --> 00:56:37.420 I feel like my podcast player is going to get even more bloated than it already is now. 00:56:37.420 --> 00:56:38.700 So I have to check some of these out. 00:56:39.280 --> 00:57:01.040 And to add one more on top of the pile, one that I almost forgot is Spark from the Canadian Broadcast Corporation, which is just a really great show that talks about our relationship with technology in the modern world and how different technologies that are coming out can have these different effects on society as a whole or various other topics along those lines. 00:57:01.040 --> 00:57:02.820 So it's definitely worth taking a listen to. 00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:03.520 Oh, that's cool. 00:57:03.520 --> 00:57:10.000 A documentary that just came out this weekend or something is called Lo and Behold. 00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:13.480 And it's done by Werner Herzog. 00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:16.880 A really great documentary that was basically right on that as well. 00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:18.560 So I'm really looking forward to checking that out, too. 00:57:18.560 --> 00:57:19.720 Cool. 00:57:19.720 --> 00:57:19.940 Okay. 00:57:19.940 --> 00:57:21.500 Well, thanks for the recommendations, guys. 00:57:21.500 --> 00:57:23.500 I think we're getting pretty much near the end of the show. 00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:24.260 Let's see. 00:57:24.260 --> 00:57:30.400 So, Chris, when you write some code, Python code in particular, what editor do you open up? 00:57:30.680 --> 00:57:31.040 Emacs. 00:57:31.040 --> 00:57:32.640 You just can't beat it. 00:57:32.640 --> 00:57:33.900 I mean, it's so mature. 00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:35.500 You can do anything in it. 00:57:35.500 --> 00:57:36.480 And it's Python. 00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:38.400 LPy is just an amazing package. 00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:38.880 All right. 00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:39.340 LPy. 00:57:39.340 --> 00:57:39.720 All right. 00:57:39.720 --> 00:57:40.060 Cool. 00:57:40.060 --> 00:57:40.900 Tobias? 00:57:40.900 --> 00:57:59.600 Yeah, I've been using Emacs for a while now, too, after doing a tour of various IDEs and editors, starting with, I think, Wing IDE, going through PyCharm, landing on Sublime Text for a while, made a detour to Vim for a few months, and then eventually ended up in Emacs. 00:57:59.600 --> 00:58:01.180 And that's what I've been using for a few years now. 00:58:01.180 --> 00:58:01.460 Wow. 00:58:01.460 --> 00:58:02.720 That's quite a road trip. 00:58:02.720 --> 00:58:03.320 That's cool. 00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:03.640 Yeah. 00:58:03.640 --> 00:58:04.840 All right. 00:58:05.060 --> 00:58:12.920 And of all the 80,000-plus PyPI packages out there, what one do you think maybe doesn't get enough press you want to give some exposure to? 00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:13.620 Chris, you go first. 00:58:13.620 --> 00:58:16.800 I would say Toga from Beware. 00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:20.680 I think it does cross-platform UI in a really interesting way. 00:58:20.680 --> 00:58:27.500 I've only played with it a little bit, but he's looking for more people to kick the tires and sort of help build it out. 00:58:27.500 --> 00:58:32.400 And I think it's native cross-platform UI, which I think is hugely important. 00:58:32.720 --> 00:58:36.440 So I would love it if more people jumped on that bandwagon and took a look there. 00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:37.200 All right. 00:58:37.200 --> 00:58:37.520 Awesome. 00:58:37.520 --> 00:58:38.400 Tobias? 00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:43.320 I was thinking about this through the whole show, and I think the one I've settled on is probably SaltStack. 00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:48.000 One, because it's what I use in my day-to-day basis, and it is just an incredibly powerful tool. 00:58:48.260 --> 00:59:08.420 And also in the configuration management space, it is all too often overlooked because I think that it has a feature set that none of the other tools in the configuration management or systems automation space can really duplicate just because of how modular and pluggable and extensible and flexible it actually is. 00:59:08.420 --> 00:59:10.540 What's the elevator pitch for it? 00:59:10.540 --> 00:59:13.500 People are not totally into DevOps space. 00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:14.840 What's the story with it? 00:59:15.860 --> 00:59:22.300 So if I were to give it to you in one line, I would say SaltStack is the tool that will make your cloud run smoothly. 00:59:22.300 --> 00:59:22.640 Okay. 00:59:22.640 --> 00:59:23.860 That's smooth. 00:59:23.860 --> 00:59:24.380 Nice. 00:59:24.380 --> 00:59:25.000 All right. 00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:25.660 So that's your recommendation. 00:59:25.660 --> 00:59:26.020 Cool. 00:59:26.020 --> 00:59:27.260 All right, guys. 00:59:27.260 --> 00:59:32.900 So if people want to listen to your podcast, obviously they can go to their podcast player and search, although maybe not Stitcher. 00:59:32.900 --> 00:59:35.240 Maybe not Stitcher. 00:59:35.240 --> 00:59:38.480 But anyway, how do they find you guys? 00:59:38.660 --> 00:59:48.240 The best way to find us is just go to pythonpodcast.com and you'll find links to the various places where we have feeds as well as our show notes and some other things. 00:59:48.240 --> 00:59:49.740 You can sign up for our newsletter there. 00:59:49.740 --> 00:59:58.460 You can check out our discourse forum from there, or you can also just go straight to discourse.pythonpodcast.com and join our forum community and start talking to us directly. 00:59:58.700 --> 00:59:59.040 All right. 00:59:59.040 --> 01:00:00.880 Well, thanks for sharing your story. 01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:02.960 It's really nice to get a look inside. 01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:08.900 We've had a lot of parallel experiences, so I think it's cool to go back and forth on them for sure. 01:00:08.900 --> 01:00:09.560 Definitely. 01:00:09.560 --> 01:00:10.240 Absolutely. 01:00:10.240 --> 01:00:11.240 Thanks for having us on. 01:00:13.120 --> 01:00:15.960 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:22.140 Today's guests have been Tobias Macy and Chris Paddy, and this episode has been sponsored by Hired and SnapCI. 01:00:22.140 --> 01:00:24.040 Thank them both for supporting the show. 01:00:24.040 --> 01:00:26.840 Hired wants to help you find your next big thing. 01:00:26.840 --> 01:00:35.340 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me to get five or more offers with salary and equity presented right up front and a special listener signing bonus of $2,000. 01:00:35.340 --> 01:00:39.900 SnapCI is modern, continuous integration and delivery. 01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:45.780 Build, test, and deploy your code directly from GitHub, all in your browser with debugging, Docker, and parallels included. 01:00:45.780 --> 01:00:48.840 Try them for free at snap.ci slash Talk Python. 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you 01:02:19.420 --> 01:02:19.720 . 01:02:19.720 --> 01:02:20.220 you