WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:09.440 Talk Python To Me, episode number six, with guest Kenneth Wright, recorded Friday, April 17th, 2015. 00:00:09.440 --> 00:00:39.020 Hello and welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python, 00:00:39.020 --> 00:00:42.600 the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, and the personalities. 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.420 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:00:44.420 --> 00:00:47.120 Follow me on Twitter where I'm @mkennedy, 00:00:47.120 --> 00:00:51.780 and keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpythontome.com. 00:00:51.780 --> 00:00:59.700 This episode will be talking to Kenneth Wright about requests, the package, API design, PyCon, and more. 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:02.220 Hello, Michael here. 00:01:02.220 --> 00:01:04.220 I've got a couple of news items for you. 00:01:04.220 --> 00:01:08.600 First, thank you to everyone who contacted or mentioned the show on Twitter, 00:01:08.600 --> 00:01:10.240 where we're at Talk Python. 00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:12.880 I really appreciate the feedback and suggestions. 00:01:12.880 --> 00:01:17.160 It's also a nice way to let others know about the show, and it makes a big difference for us. 00:01:17.160 --> 00:01:21.660 Next, if you're listening to the show and you have not yet subscribed, please do. 00:01:21.660 --> 00:01:24.580 Open up your favorite podcatcher and search for Python. 00:01:24.580 --> 00:01:26.420 The show should be right near the top. 00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:29.160 If it isn't, send me a note and I'll try to fix that. 00:01:29.940 --> 00:01:31.080 How about a t-shirt? 00:01:31.080 --> 00:01:35.380 I think I have a really cool design for a Talk Python themed t-shirt. 00:01:35.380 --> 00:01:38.240 If there's enough interest, I'll actually create it. 00:01:38.240 --> 00:01:43.000 Visit talkpythontome.com, look in the footer, and click t-shirt, 00:01:43.220 --> 00:01:49.080 or just visit talkpythontome.com slash home slash shirt and press the button. 00:01:49.080 --> 00:01:53.620 Finally, I want to say thank you to Tobias, Macy, and Chris Patty. 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:59.440 In some crazy coincidence, the Python community was without a proper podcast for almost a year. 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:04.260 Then Tobias and Chris and I independently set about creating new podcasts. 00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:10.780 And with all the setup and scheduling and a million little items it takes to get a podcast off the ground, 00:02:10.780 --> 00:02:13.340 we ended up releasing in the very same week. 00:02:13.340 --> 00:02:14.140 Amazing. 00:02:14.140 --> 00:02:19.920 Check out their show called Podcast Under Under a Knit at podcastinit.com. 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:23.860 Now, let's get on to speaking with the amazing Kenneth Wrights. 00:02:23.860 --> 00:02:26.140 Kenneth, welcome to the show. 00:02:26.140 --> 00:02:28.180 Thank you for having me, Michael. 00:02:28.900 --> 00:02:30.000 Yeah, this is great. 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:35.700 You've built some amazing open source packages, and I'm glad we got a chance to share that with the world. 00:02:35.700 --> 00:02:36.940 Absolutely. 00:02:36.940 --> 00:02:38.000 I'm really glad to be here. 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:39.080 Cool. 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.820 So before we get into sort of modern day, what are you working on and so on, 00:02:43.820 --> 00:02:48.400 I think people find it really interesting to see how everyone has come to Python 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.020 and got started in this whole community. 00:02:51.020 --> 00:02:55.580 So maybe you could just tell me a bit about how you got started in Python and what's your story? 00:02:55.580 --> 00:02:58.580 I started doing Python when I was in undergrad. 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:02.120 I went to George Mason University, and they had a Python class. 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:05.880 And I had already been doing a lot of programming languages throughout my life. 00:03:06.620 --> 00:03:11.280 You know, since I was a young kid, I was learning like basic and C and play with Pascal and stuff like that. 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.920 And Python really attracted me as a language. 00:03:13.920 --> 00:03:19.040 And so I had dropped out of school shortly thereafter and just kind of started doing it full time. 00:03:19.040 --> 00:03:19.960 And here I am. 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:21.260 That's awesome. 00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:24.940 So you're really glad you just took Python and ran with it, huh? 00:03:24.940 --> 00:03:25.640 It's working out well? 00:03:25.640 --> 00:03:26.980 Yeah, absolutely. 00:03:26.980 --> 00:03:31.400 I was doing PHP for a while, and I did a little bit of Java and all kinds of stuff. 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:34.980 But Python has really resonated deeply with me and what I'm doing. 00:03:34.980 --> 00:03:36.020 Yeah, that's cool. 00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:45.960 So the reason that I reached out to you, the sort of thing that I know you for, if you will, is your request packages, which is sort of an HTTP client library for Python. 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:51.080 Maybe start, I suspect a lot of people know about requests, but not everybody. 00:03:51.340 --> 00:03:53.800 So maybe give me like the 30-second elevator pitch. 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:55.380 Like, what's wrong with URL lib? 00:03:55.380 --> 00:03:58.280 Why did you create this request package and go with that? 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.440 Yeah, so request is called HTTP for humans. 00:04:01.440 --> 00:04:04.400 And originally when I created it, it was not called that. 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.880 It was actually called HTTP for Python that doesn't suck. 00:04:07.880 --> 00:04:10.660 It was a much more negative title. 00:04:10.660 --> 00:04:13.280 And it kind of evolved as I was going along. 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:17.020 And I decided I didn't want to be putting down other projects, but I wanted to be building up the community. 00:04:17.020 --> 00:04:19.060 So I called it HTTP for humans. 00:04:19.380 --> 00:04:25.740 And effectively the pitch is that if you're, you know, the internet is basically the way we communicate. 00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:30.880 You know, it's like everything that we do usually goes over the internet when we're building tools today. 00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:33.260 You know, the entire world revolves around the internet. 00:04:33.260 --> 00:04:39.480 And so making calls to the internet with Python should be as simple as the print statement. 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:43.120 And if you use the built-in tools that come with Python, it's tremendously difficult. 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.220 So I built requests to make it really great. 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:48.840 And I believe I succeeded. 00:04:48.840 --> 00:04:51.220 Yeah, I think you did a really fine job. 00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:55.440 And, you know, whenever I've needed some sort of HTTP client for Python, I definitely use requests. 00:04:55.440 --> 00:05:04.180 I mean, you know, if I think what I have to write in order to do an authenticated request with URL lib, you know, it's ridiculous. 00:05:04.180 --> 00:05:07.540 The default password or password manager with a default realm? 00:05:07.540 --> 00:05:08.820 Yes, exactly. 00:05:08.820 --> 00:05:11.200 So you have to specify the domain or whatever it is. 00:05:11.200 --> 00:05:13.200 Take an opener and then install the opener. 00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:14.900 And then it's a nightmare. 00:05:14.900 --> 00:05:15.920 It's a total nightmare. 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.460 So, yeah, it's definitely a breath of fresh air. 00:05:18.460 --> 00:05:19.280 Thank you. 00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:25.900 So, you know, building libraries like that, you probably spend a lot of time thinking about APIs and what makes a good API. 00:05:26.760 --> 00:05:27.080 Yeah. 00:05:27.080 --> 00:05:33.920 Request is kind of like my – if people ask me what my favorite libraries are, I usually answer request is my favorite one. 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:35.660 Because it is. 00:05:35.660 --> 00:05:38.760 I've put a lot of thought and design into the way it works. 00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:43.820 And it is kind of like my personal, like, you know, totem of good design. 00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:48.300 And, yeah, there's a lot of – I'm very opinionated about certain things in Python. 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:54.640 Actually, PyCon – Raymond Hediger just did a great talk at PyCon called Beyond Pep8. 00:05:54.640 --> 00:06:01.720 And he kind of got into a lot of these things, which was – it's all basically about, like, taking the basic data model in Python. 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:07.760 And, you know, like, you can make an object behave in any number of ways and using properties and stuff. 00:06:07.760 --> 00:06:13.040 And I think it's a really good starting place for someone that wants to know how to build good Python code. 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:13.380 Yeah. 00:06:13.380 --> 00:06:13.840 Okay. 00:06:13.880 --> 00:06:14.460 That's really cool. 00:06:14.460 --> 00:06:16.080 And, you know, all those shows are recorded. 00:06:16.080 --> 00:06:17.740 And we'll talk about that a little bit later. 00:06:17.740 --> 00:06:20.140 So I recommend people go check that one out. 00:06:20.140 --> 00:06:28.240 And just for the listeners who maybe are catching this later or got the recording after a few weeks later, you know, this is April 21st. 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:30.860 And PyCon was – it was like a week ago? 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:31.520 Yeah. 00:06:31.520 --> 00:06:34.520 I just got back two or three days ago from PyCon. 00:06:34.520 --> 00:06:34.700 Yeah. 00:06:34.700 --> 00:06:36.060 It was last week, wasn't it? 00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:36.400 That's right. 00:06:36.400 --> 00:06:37.260 Yeah. 00:06:37.260 --> 00:06:38.620 Well, I stayed extra long for the sprints. 00:06:38.620 --> 00:06:40.360 So it was good. 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:41.780 I was there for, like, 12 days in total. 00:06:41.780 --> 00:06:42.420 It was ridiculous. 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:43.660 Amazing. 00:06:43.660 --> 00:06:43.820 Amazing. 00:06:43.820 --> 00:06:44.140 Amazing. 00:06:44.140 --> 00:06:51.980 So before we get to that, you know, can you kind of say a few comments about what you think makes good API design? 00:06:51.980 --> 00:06:54.060 I mean, obviously, Request has it. 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:56.160 But what do you think, like, the essential ingredients are? 00:06:56.640 --> 00:06:58.640 Well, so I have a litmus test that I pitch people. 00:06:58.640 --> 00:07:05.160 And it's basically that if you have to look at the documentation every time you use the module, then you should either find a new module or build a new module. 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:07.780 That's a good plan. 00:07:07.780 --> 00:07:08.360 Yeah. 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:08.860 Good recommendation. 00:07:09.080 --> 00:07:11.780 It's, like, surprisingly difficult when you're using code. 00:07:11.780 --> 00:07:12.960 Like, if you have to... 00:07:12.960 --> 00:07:16.820 I'm not saying, like, you know, if you pick it up for the first time in months, then looking at the docs. 00:07:16.820 --> 00:07:22.340 But, like, there are certain code bases where, like, you just have the docs and you're looking at them more than you're looking at the code. 00:07:22.740 --> 00:07:28.540 And to me, that's not, you know, that's a testament to an unergonomic design. 00:07:28.540 --> 00:07:29.200 Yeah. 00:07:29.200 --> 00:07:31.800 Or a really hard problem space, one of the two. 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:32.720 Right. 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:34.740 It could be a super hard problem space. 00:07:34.740 --> 00:07:35.300 But... 00:07:35.300 --> 00:07:42.280 But even in those cases, there's, you know, you can build a layered API and, you know, you can have a nice human layer as well as a low-level one. 00:07:42.280 --> 00:07:43.600 Absolutely. 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:49.540 Just because your library might do 100 things, there's probably, you know, what, two or three very common use cases. 00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:53.280 Maybe there should be some, like, higher-level abstraction that you use for that. 00:07:53.280 --> 00:07:54.120 Precisely. 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:55.500 And then you dig down. 00:07:55.500 --> 00:08:01.100 You know, I'm thinking of things like we just spoke to Mike Bayer from SQLAlchemy. 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:01.820 Very nice. 00:08:01.820 --> 00:08:02.600 And with SQL... 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.000 Yeah, which is a great conversation. 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:09.740 And, you know, with SQLAlchemy, you've got two, literally two layers you can think of, right? 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:12.880 There's, like, the SQLAlchemy core, which is purely about data access. 00:08:12.880 --> 00:08:18.900 Then there's the ORM, which is kind of like the, hey, let's keep it a little bit easier, but you have maybe less control over the performance. 00:08:19.340 --> 00:08:19.940 Or so on. 00:08:19.940 --> 00:08:24.660 It's funny you mention that, because I actually want to work on a new project that's like SQLAlchemy for humans. 00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:28.280 But we'll see how it goes. 00:08:28.280 --> 00:08:29.220 Yeah, excellent. 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:29.620 Excellent. 00:08:29.620 --> 00:08:34.640 So before we move off of requests, let me ask you just a couple more questions on it. 00:08:34.640 --> 00:08:40.980 Are there, like, really notable users or sort of, like, famous use cases that you can talk about? 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:43.880 Yeah, well, it's basically, it's quite ubiquitous. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:47.340 Basically, if anyone's doing Python and HTTP, they are using requests. 00:08:47.340 --> 00:08:52.840 The one that I'm the most proud of is Amazon uses it for their internal API tools. 00:08:53.100 --> 00:09:03.100 So everything that runs EC2 and S3 and all of AWS, every single API call goes through requests, which is astonishing, because that means, like, it's powering the entire internet. 00:09:03.100 --> 00:09:04.140 Yeah. 00:09:04.140 --> 00:09:08.760 And you, in some way, you are, like, a layer beneath so much of the internet. 00:09:08.760 --> 00:09:09.680 That's really cool. 00:09:09.900 --> 00:09:11.060 Yeah, I'm really proud of that. 00:09:11.060 --> 00:09:19.120 Speaking of APIs, you know, one of the things that really puts external pressure on APIs is the whole async programming model. 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:29.360 So, you know, traditionally with things like Twisted, but, you know, more modern with AsyncIO, does requests have any support for that? 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:34.080 Or what do you think about, you know, APIs in general adapting to these async stories? 00:09:34.580 --> 00:09:39.800 So the old way, sorry, like, kind of the current best practice way of doing it is using gevent. 00:09:39.800 --> 00:09:44.320 And what that does is it monkey patches the entire standard library. 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:53.780 And it adds basically callbacks throughout every piece of blocking code in the standard library, in theory. 00:09:53.780 --> 00:09:55.140 I mean, that's what it's designed to do. 00:09:55.140 --> 00:09:58.180 It doesn't do a perfect job, but it gets the job done most of the time. 00:09:58.180 --> 00:10:07.400 And then what you do is you have an event loop, and you say, like, instead of, like, you know, you have a function that's, like, go get this HTTP request with requests, and that blocks. 00:10:07.400 --> 00:10:10.060 You know, it's, like, a very, like, blocky process. 00:10:10.060 --> 00:10:15.220 But if you do it with gevent, you can just say, like, run 100 of these, and it does them all concurrently, and it comes back. 00:10:15.220 --> 00:10:16.460 And it works really well. 00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:20.260 Then in Python 3, I think in 3.2 they added it. 00:10:20.260 --> 00:10:22.660 They added this new library called AsyncIO. 00:10:23.540 --> 00:10:26.060 And it's Guido's, it used to be called, known as Tulip. 00:10:26.060 --> 00:10:33.680 And it is the new asynchronous way of interacting with, just, you know, doing asynchronous work, especially over the network. 00:10:33.680 --> 00:10:35.440 And it's still very new. 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:43.360 It's what is considered to be a provisional package within a standard library, which means that it is not officially done. 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:49.940 So there's, like, a small core that's still being iterated on, and then there's going to be, like, an official HTTP client after that. 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:58.960 And I don't necessarily think that will replace the usage of requests or these blocking-style services, but it's too early to tell, I would say. 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:03.520 But right now you can use gevent, and, like, you get the best of both worlds, and it works really well. 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:05.060 Yeah, that's, okay, that's really cool. 00:11:05.060 --> 00:11:09.840 I don't think every API or every use case needs to use AsyncIO. 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:13.680 I mean, it's one of these special case scenarios. 00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:19.160 I'm running a web server, and I want to support, you know, 20,000 requests on this machine, right? 00:11:19.160 --> 00:11:21.540 Maybe you need to think about async programming. 00:11:21.540 --> 00:11:25.820 But if you're just writing, like, a basic web scraper, then maybe you do, maybe you don't. 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:26.800 It depends what you're up to. 00:11:26.800 --> 00:11:30.560 Yeah, I mean, you can always scale as long as your performance is predictable. 00:11:30.560 --> 00:11:34.480 And unfortunately, when you're using something like gevent, it makes things a lot less predictable. 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.500 But, you know, it depends on what you're doing, really. 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:41.840 It's one of those things where you just have to try it and see if it works for your project. 00:11:42.060 --> 00:11:45.320 A lot of times, your code isn't compatible because of different C dependencies, because 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:45.980 that always blocks. 00:11:45.980 --> 00:11:49.980 And, you know, it's kind of like this big hairball you're getting yourself into. 00:11:49.980 --> 00:11:55.140 But, you know, if you have the right type of code and you use gevent, you can, you know, 00:11:55.140 --> 00:11:58.380 come close to, like, node performance benchmarks and go. 00:11:58.380 --> 00:11:59.260 It's really fantastic. 00:11:59.260 --> 00:12:00.460 Yeah, that's really great. 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:08.840 Michael here. 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:13.260 Thank you so much for listening to and spreading the word about Talk Python TV. 00:12:13.260 --> 00:12:17.240 I'm still looking to line up stable corporate sponsorships, but I wanted to tell you about 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:21.520 a community-based campaign I'm launching to allow listeners to directly support the show. 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:23.700 We are running a Patreon campaign. 00:12:23.700 --> 00:12:26.880 Consider supporting us today at patreon.com slash mkennedy. 00:12:26.880 --> 00:12:27.900 And thanks for listening. 00:12:27.900 --> 00:12:40.000 Okay, so like we were saying before, you just came back from PyCon. 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:41.440 And you, it's amazing. 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:42.540 You spent 12 days there. 00:12:42.540 --> 00:12:44.000 You've been, like, completely immersed. 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:44.680 What are your thoughts? 00:12:44.680 --> 00:12:46.420 On the conference itself? 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:51.240 Yeah, just the whole experience and what was the vibe of Python this year and so on. 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.480 Well, so PyCon is kind of like my way of measuring the year every year. 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:00.360 Like, you know, every year, like, most people, like, think of the new year as the start of 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:00.800 their new year. 00:13:00.800 --> 00:13:05.160 But for me, like, PyCon is kind of like where I, like, you know, sit down and think about 00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:06.200 my life and all this stuff. 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:11.560 And it's great because, like, I go to all these tech conferences all the time for work and speak 00:13:11.560 --> 00:13:14.820 at these conferences and events and I hang out with all these people everywhere. 00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:16.800 And I get to see almost all of them at PyCon. 00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:18.460 So for me, it's a very social event. 00:13:18.460 --> 00:13:21.760 It's a very, it's very work-oriented, but it's also very personal. 00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:25.820 And it's just kind of like, you know, this most intense week of my life. 00:13:25.820 --> 00:13:28.200 And I had a really great PyCon. 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:30.020 I'd say this is my best PyCon so far. 00:13:30.020 --> 00:13:33.800 The energy of the whole thing was really good. 00:13:33.800 --> 00:13:37.060 There were some things that were a little different this year, even from last year, which was also 00:13:37.060 --> 00:13:37.540 in Montreal. 00:13:37.540 --> 00:13:40.240 I don't know. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:40.800 I liked it, though. 00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:41.180 It was good. 00:13:42.180 --> 00:13:47.220 To me, I personally spent a lot more time interacting one-on-one with people instead 00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:50.680 of, like, doing these big group talks, like kind of normally happens where you get, like, 00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:52.620 20 people in a circle and everyone's talking. 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:54.460 I used to do that constantly. 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:59.080 And then this year, I spent a lot more time, like, you know, spending time with the people 00:13:59.080 --> 00:13:59.760 I wanted to see. 00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:01.560 And that seemed to be really beneficial to me. 00:14:01.560 --> 00:14:03.800 Yeah, that's really excellent. 00:14:03.800 --> 00:14:06.720 Some of my favorite conferences, I've hardly gone to any of the talks. 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.700 It's just you kind of go there and you spend your time with the people and in the environment. 00:14:11.140 --> 00:14:13.220 And, you know, maybe you see the talks, maybe you don't. 00:14:13.220 --> 00:14:13.760 Exactly. 00:14:13.760 --> 00:14:15.580 At PyCon, that's known as the hallway track. 00:14:15.580 --> 00:14:17.000 Yeah, awesome. 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:19.280 How many years have you been going? 00:14:19.280 --> 00:14:21.380 Excuse me. 00:14:21.380 --> 00:14:22.720 Let's see. 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:24.420 This was, my first one was 2011. 00:14:24.420 --> 00:14:26.120 So, I guess this is my fourth PyCon. 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:27.160 Excellent, excellent. 00:14:27.160 --> 00:14:28.600 Yeah, I couldn't go this year. 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:32.140 My wife was also traveling and we have small kids and we'd be in trouble if we both left 00:14:32.140 --> 00:14:32.360 town. 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:33.980 Well, there's always next year. 00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:36.840 Yeah, and it's coming to my hometown, so it's looking good. 00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:37.540 Yeah, that'll be great. 00:14:37.540 --> 00:14:40.760 Brandon Rhodes is running this year, so I'm really excited to see what he, 00:14:41.060 --> 00:14:42.160 what he does to it. 00:14:42.160 --> 00:14:43.780 Yeah, that'll be fantastic. 00:14:43.780 --> 00:14:48.940 So, can you tell me what some of your, you know, speaking of not going to the talks and 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:52.480 then asking you the opposite question, can you tell me what some of your favorite sessions 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:54.200 or topics that were covered at PyCon? 00:14:54.900 --> 00:14:58.000 Well, I didn't go to any talks. 00:14:58.000 --> 00:14:59.160 Awesome. 00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:00.840 So, you really enjoyed the hallway track. 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:01.160 That's fantastic. 00:15:01.160 --> 00:15:05.480 Yeah, I have almost a no-talk policy because I go to, I go to a lot of conferences and they 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:06.960 all kind of blur together eventually. 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:09.980 But, and especially at PyCon, they're all already up online. 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:11.080 Like, you can watch them now. 00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:13.920 And so, I just kind of, you know, I do that. 00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:15.500 And I, I'm there to see the people. 00:15:15.500 --> 00:15:17.100 But I have watched a few already. 00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:22.180 And I really enjoyed, Jacob Kaplan Moss, who is one of the runners of the Django 00:15:22.180 --> 00:15:22.560 project. 00:15:22.680 --> 00:15:28.300 And a coworker of mine did a really great keynote that I enjoyed, about just kind 00:15:28.300 --> 00:15:31.880 of like the diversity in tech, problem in that space. 00:15:31.880 --> 00:15:35.460 He, he went up on stage and was like, everybody, I'm a mediocre programmer. 00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:37.360 And I was like, that's pretty cool. 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.700 And I was thinking like, if I was to do that talk, I think I would do the opposite. 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:43.520 I'm like, I'm an amazing programmer and so are all of you. 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:47.180 But, but, yeah, it was a good talk. 00:15:47.180 --> 00:15:49.680 And so, that's the only one I think I've really sat down and watched. 00:15:49.760 --> 00:15:52.580 Although I watched Raymond's talk as well on beyond pepe. 00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:57.680 And that was, I think, fantastic for, cause people, I've never seen it so well solidified 00:15:57.680 --> 00:15:59.740 before how to write good Pythonic code. 00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:01.600 So, I'd recommend checking that out as well. 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:02.040 Okay. 00:16:02.040 --> 00:16:02.280 Yeah. 00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:03.800 Those, those both sound really awesome. 00:16:03.800 --> 00:16:09.780 So, because I couldn't go, I kind of, you know, YouTube was my connection to PyCon this 00:16:09.780 --> 00:16:09.940 year. 00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:14.980 So, I'm like, all right, well, let me go through and sort of make a playlist for myself and what 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:19.740 I think, you know, at least just reading the descriptions seems like, you know, 00:16:19.740 --> 00:16:22.200 kind of essential or the real valuable stuff. 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.340 Now, you know, not to disparage anybody else's stuff that's not on the list or whatever, but 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:27.980 these are just the ones that jumped out at me. 00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:28.220 Right. 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:28.600 Yeah. 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:30.860 So, on YouTube, I made a playlist. 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:37.400 You can find it at bit.ly slash PyCon 2015 MK, all lowercase. 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.280 And I think, how many videos do I have there? 00:16:40.280 --> 00:16:42.360 I've got 29 videos, apparently. 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:43.100 Nice. 00:16:43.100 --> 00:16:44.040 Yeah. 00:16:44.040 --> 00:16:48.700 And so, you know, some of them that I thought were pretty cool was there's one called Bytes 00:16:48.700 --> 00:16:51.520 Inside the Machine, Inside the CPython Interpreter. 00:16:51.520 --> 00:16:53.900 And that's by Allison Captur. 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:58.420 And I thought that was really cool because a lot of time, you know, you spend time so high 00:16:58.420 --> 00:17:02.680 in sort of the Python code, like looking down at actually what happens when you run it. 00:17:03.140 --> 00:17:04.500 I thought that was pretty cool. 00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:08.120 Andrew Baker did one on demystifying Docker. 00:17:08.120 --> 00:17:09.060 Oh, yeah. 00:17:09.060 --> 00:17:11.280 And I think Docker is going to be massive. 00:17:11.280 --> 00:17:15.540 You know, it's already kind of massive, but I think it's just at the beginning, you know? 00:17:15.540 --> 00:17:16.160 I agree. 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:17.560 Yeah. 00:17:17.560 --> 00:17:21.180 And so, I think understanding Docker is going to be really important if you're doing anything 00:17:21.180 --> 00:17:22.700 involving like a server. 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:23.480 Which? 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:25.140 It's pretty much everyone. 00:17:25.140 --> 00:17:25.700 Not everyone. 00:17:26.060 --> 00:17:30.600 There's plenty of people that just run, you know, scripts on their machines. 00:17:30.600 --> 00:17:33.000 But for the most part, I think people need to understand that. 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:33.640 So, that's pretty cool. 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.780 And then Gary Ward did one on how to write reusable code, which sounds a little bit like 00:17:37.780 --> 00:17:38.660 beyond PEPT-8. 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:39.820 Yeah. 00:17:39.820 --> 00:17:40.600 Yeah. 00:17:40.600 --> 00:17:41.080 And let's see. 00:17:41.080 --> 00:17:41.580 A few more. 00:17:41.580 --> 00:17:43.840 Ryan Kelly did one on PyPy.js. 00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:45.680 Oh, I didn't hear about that. 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:46.340 That sounds amazing. 00:17:46.340 --> 00:17:46.560 Yeah. 00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:47.420 Doesn't that sound cool? 00:17:47.420 --> 00:17:49.820 Like, you know, running Python. 00:17:49.820 --> 00:17:54.300 Is this a JavaScript interpreter? 00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:56.300 I don't remember exact. 00:17:56.300 --> 00:17:57.680 I think it. 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:58.940 I suspect it is. 00:17:58.940 --> 00:18:03.940 Because PyPy is, in addition to being a Python interpreter, it's also a platform for building 00:18:03.940 --> 00:18:04.960 other interpreted languages. 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:05.560 Right. 00:18:05.560 --> 00:18:06.240 It may well be. 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:07.580 So, maybe it's running. 00:18:07.580 --> 00:18:07.960 Yeah. 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.060 I actually should stop talking because I now know. 00:18:10.060 --> 00:18:11.820 I've now told you as much as I know about it. 00:18:11.820 --> 00:18:14.260 Other than watching it because that one I haven't seen. 00:18:14.260 --> 00:18:17.680 You know, I'd like to get your thoughts on one that Guido did. 00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:21.780 Just the topic, not because I know neither of us have seen it yet, is type hints. 00:18:21.780 --> 00:18:22.700 Oh, yes. 00:18:22.700 --> 00:18:24.060 I've talked to Guido about type hints. 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:25.920 What do you think about type hints? 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:27.120 I don't care about them. 00:18:27.120 --> 00:18:29.880 But I know he's really excited about them. 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:31.360 And it's interesting. 00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:35.120 So, it seems like those are being built to serve this particular market that I am very 00:18:35.120 --> 00:18:35.880 disconnected from. 00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:39.920 And I think that the people that are involved in the core development of Python are connected 00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:40.180 to. 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:44.680 And it seems to be like these people that are like building compilers and like, you know, 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:48.520 they're like taking Python code and turning it into something else for like optimization 00:18:48.520 --> 00:18:49.140 and stuff. 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.200 And I think that that's the idea behind type hints. 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.540 I think that's like a use case. 00:18:55.540 --> 00:18:57.440 It's definitely a use case. 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:01.680 Another one that jumps to mind is if you're building editors like the PyCharm guys. 00:19:01.820 --> 00:19:02.080 Yeah. 00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:08.800 And that seems just really odd to me to build, you know, to build language features around 00:19:08.800 --> 00:19:09.040 that. 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:12.420 But because, but I'm not like, I'm not in that space. 00:19:12.420 --> 00:19:15.120 So, I don't know what the real motivation is. 00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:16.800 But it just seems a little odd to me. 00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:20.300 And everyone I talk to also doesn't care about type hints. 00:19:20.300 --> 00:19:23.220 But it's also one of those things that I don't think you'll need to care about if you're not 00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:24.040 going to use them probably. 00:19:25.040 --> 00:19:26.340 Yeah, I suspect that's right. 00:19:26.340 --> 00:19:31.980 You know, if you're coming from Java or C# or some other typeful language, that might 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:33.360 convince you to make the leap. 00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:33.800 Yeah. 00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:37.880 Whereas if you've been doing Python for 10 years, you're like, we don't need this, you 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:38.040 know? 00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:40.560 Yeah, I'm definitely in a different camp than Guido is. 00:19:40.560 --> 00:19:42.700 I'm very much, I love Python 2.7. 00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:45.120 And I feel like I could use it for the rest of my life. 00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:50.120 I'm planning on like, you know, fully embracing 3 when everyone else does. 00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:55.220 And so, there's a lot of, you know, like all this new development on these type hints and 00:19:55.220 --> 00:19:59.420 stuff doesn't sound as exciting to me as like, making sure that we have a way to like ship 00:19:59.420 --> 00:20:01.280 like standalone binaries. 00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:03.540 I feel like that would be a really great use of our time. 00:20:03.540 --> 00:20:06.040 I'm not saying that Guido shouldn't be working on this. 00:20:06.040 --> 00:20:08.080 Like, he should work on whatever he wants to work on. 00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:10.000 And I'm really excited that he's putting the work into this. 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:15.320 But I hope other people, you know, don't stop working on other things because of it. 00:20:15.320 --> 00:20:16.280 And I don't think they will. 00:20:16.280 --> 00:20:16.900 That's not happening. 00:20:16.900 --> 00:20:18.680 I was at the Language Summit this year. 00:20:18.860 --> 00:20:21.620 And we had a really great conversation about the next year of Python. 00:20:21.620 --> 00:20:23.700 And there was a lot of talk. 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:25.180 Guido did one on type hints. 00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:28.840 There's a lot of really great stuff that kind of came up. 00:20:28.840 --> 00:20:29.880 Okay, that's cool. 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:31.900 Can you talk about what else was at the Language Summit? 00:20:31.900 --> 00:20:33.180 Let me think. 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:34.660 I was only there for the second half. 00:20:34.660 --> 00:20:35.980 I did a talk on requests. 00:20:35.980 --> 00:20:40.300 And because everyone is really interested in adding it to the standard library. 00:20:40.760 --> 00:20:43.400 So I did a talk about the pros and cons of that. 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:49.340 And basically stated that requests is a critical piece of infrastructure for the Python community. 00:20:49.340 --> 00:20:51.020 Because pip relies on it. 00:20:51.020 --> 00:20:52.180 And like pip ships with Python. 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:56.580 And, you know, it's like the most popular Python package there is. 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.040 So, and I have security updates. 00:21:00.040 --> 00:21:06.020 You know, when there's like a CVE that's released for HTTP and OpenSSL and stuff, we have to make changes. 00:21:06.020 --> 00:21:08.600 And, you know, Python has a 16-month release cycle. 00:21:08.600 --> 00:21:13.880 And we've released a version by maintainers in like 12 hours. 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:16.300 So there's a big difference there. 00:21:16.300 --> 00:21:20.740 So if requests was to go into the standard library, it would be, I think, irresponsible. 00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:27.080 So we decided together as a group that requests is going to be officially recommended in the Python documentation. 00:21:27.080 --> 00:21:31.820 Instead of going into the standard library. 00:21:31.820 --> 00:21:33.360 Which seems like a good compromise. 00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:34.540 Right. 00:21:34.540 --> 00:21:35.540 That makes a lot of sense. 00:21:35.540 --> 00:21:41.200 And, you know, HTTP being such a critical but vulnerable layer as well. 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:42.440 And morphic layer as well. 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.380 What, sorry? 00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:45.560 Amorphic layer as well. 00:21:45.560 --> 00:21:46.560 It changes over time. 00:21:46.560 --> 00:21:47.560 Yeah, absolutely. 00:21:47.560 --> 00:21:48.880 It's definitely changing. 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:54.200 And if that needs to be fixed, it needs to be fixed now, not in a year. 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:55.060 So that's really interesting. 00:21:55.060 --> 00:21:57.140 Yeah, I think that was a good takeaway. 00:21:57.140 --> 00:21:58.580 It seems like a good takeaway. 00:21:58.580 --> 00:21:59.440 Cool. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.440 Well, I guess one more that I thought was worth calling out. 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:03.840 And maybe we'll do a show on this one. 00:22:03.840 --> 00:22:05.620 It's a guy named David Beasley. 00:22:05.620 --> 00:22:06.100 Yes. 00:22:06.100 --> 00:22:09.040 Did one on modules and packages. 00:22:09.040 --> 00:22:10.120 Oh, very nice. 00:22:10.120 --> 00:22:13.120 Did a three-hour workshop on it. 00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:16.800 And you think, what is there to know about modules and packages for three hours? 00:22:16.800 --> 00:22:24.220 But actually, there's a lot of really interesting stuff about, like, maintainable sub-imports when you're building large packages. 00:22:24.220 --> 00:22:28.320 And all sorts of cool stuff that I think is actually a lot of people would get a lot out of. 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:31.120 So that's also on that list of videos. 00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:32.940 Yeah, David Beasley always does amazing work. 00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:34.600 He's kind of crazy. 00:22:34.600 --> 00:22:36.900 Yeah, it was really good. 00:22:36.900 --> 00:22:38.320 So that was fantastic. 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:46.200 So what else would you like to get out into the community about Python and just let people know while you got a chance? 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:47.920 Let me think. 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.760 I've been very concerned for a long time about the adoption of Python 3. 00:22:51.760 --> 00:22:52.820 And I still am. 00:22:52.820 --> 00:22:55.580 And we had some discussion about that at PyCon as well. 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:56.720 And it's interesting. 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:06.440 It seems as though on certain platforms, like where I work at Heroku, we have about a 10% in the last month or so deploy rate for Python 3, which is really surprising. 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:15.280 And it seems to me as though this, and it's also, if you look at the cheese shop numbers, Python 3 is starting to get a little bit more usage. 00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:17.920 You know, it's still extremely minimal and far behind what we want. 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:19.140 But the needle is moving. 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:28.680 And it's really fascinating because the only thing that I can tell has changed is that Django, when they made their last release, they officially, they just used Python 3 by default. 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:34.400 And that seems to have a tremendous impact on people, on users of the language in general. 00:23:34.520 --> 00:23:39.480 Just having literally the quick start for Django in all the documentation is just Python 3 by default. 00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:41.900 So I think that's really interesting. 00:23:41.900 --> 00:23:51.860 And I think that there's a lot to learn about that and just kind of think about that and just be like, you know, maybe if I share code samples with people, they should be Python 3, not Python 2. 00:23:51.860 --> 00:23:54.000 You know, maybe that'll help make a big difference. 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:59.080 You know, if we just like shift our default mode, maybe it'll get us over this hump. 00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:01.440 Because I am concerned about the future of the language. 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:03.680 I think that we have a big marketing problem. 00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:06.120 I think that there's this product that's being built that no one wants. 00:24:06.120 --> 00:24:07.580 And so no one's using it. 00:24:07.580 --> 00:24:11.680 And I think that it's just all about getting on the same page. 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.340 Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. 00:24:14.340 --> 00:24:22.620 I mean, even if it's just going to blog something and put up a code snippet, if you started making that Python 3 more frequently, that would probably send some kind of signal to the world, you know? 00:24:22.820 --> 00:24:24.620 Yeah, it's just so interesting to see. 00:24:24.620 --> 00:24:26.920 I mean, like there's a, the needle is like actually moving. 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:30.700 And it is because Django changed their docs to use Python 3. 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:32.380 And that's just, that blows my mind. 00:24:32.380 --> 00:24:34.900 That's not, it can't be that easy. 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:40.040 Well, nobody would have, you know, thought that would make the difference. 00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:43.280 But, you know, sometimes things are unpredictable, right? 00:24:43.420 --> 00:24:43.780 Exactly. 00:24:43.780 --> 00:24:44.080 Yeah. 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:45.420 So I'm all in favor of us. 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:47.620 You know, I've been for a long time. 00:24:47.620 --> 00:24:52.500 If you talk to me in private, I'd always say that I'm a Python 2 life, Python 2 user for life. 00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:54.780 And I do kind of feel that way. 00:24:54.780 --> 00:25:01.580 But the reality is that the Python community is valuable enough to me that I don't care what I'm using as long as we're all using the same thing. 00:25:01.580 --> 00:25:07.920 So I think that we should all just kind of embrace the change and just see what happens. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:14.900 You know, I think when you look at the actual code, sort of like modern Python 2 versus Python 3, there's not that much of a difference. 00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:18.780 It's kind of the libraries or the packages that you want to take along. 00:25:18.780 --> 00:25:20.280 Like, oh, this doesn't support Python 3. 00:25:20.280 --> 00:25:22.240 Well, this project isn't using Python 3. 00:25:22.600 --> 00:25:25.840 Yeah, it definitely depends on the style of project you're doing, too. 00:25:25.840 --> 00:25:36.520 So if you're doing something that deals with bytes as text, which I do a lot because I work with HTTP, then Python 3 is the worst language in human history, basically. 00:25:36.520 --> 00:25:38.000 Yeah, it's true. 00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:41.380 Because the string stuff is really pretty different, right? 00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:41.720 Yeah. 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:49.620 So if you have a byte string and you can't do anything with it anymore, it's just like a byte array of bytes, you know, of integers. 00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:57.300 And so if you can't do, like, formatting and stuff, I think they added formatting back, actually, I think in 3.4. 00:25:57.300 --> 00:25:59.780 But they didn't add the .format method. 00:25:59.780 --> 00:26:04.580 They did the percentage, the modulus override, which is ridiculous. 00:26:04.580 --> 00:26:06.340 But so you can format strings again. 00:26:06.340 --> 00:26:08.140 But still, you can't parse them very easily. 00:26:08.140 --> 00:26:09.940 You can't work with them very easily as text. 00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:16.700 And to me, Python 3 makes a lot of sense in a world where everything is Unicode, but we don't live in that world. 00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:24.220 You know, because, like, when you're sending stuff over the internet, when you're writing it to disk, when you're sending an email, it's all actually bytes. 00:26:24.760 --> 00:26:29.620 And so I really enjoyed the flexibility that Python 2 had in that. 00:26:29.620 --> 00:26:31.380 And that was, like, my favorite part of the language. 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:32.780 And they kind of took that away from me. 00:26:32.780 --> 00:26:37.240 So I am de-incentivized to use 3 personally. 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:43.460 And if you look at, like, Armin Ronecker, the guy who wrote Flask, he writes really detailed blog posts about the same problem. 00:26:43.460 --> 00:26:45.200 And it sucks. 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:50.340 But at the same time, like, if you – usually when you're interacting with that stuff, you're dealing with libraries. 00:26:50.340 --> 00:26:52.820 You know, we deal with it because we're library authors. 00:26:52.820 --> 00:26:55.540 So if we solve the problem, then it's okay for everybody else. 00:26:55.540 --> 00:26:56.020 Right. 00:26:56.020 --> 00:26:59.880 You guys are basically the firewall to that problem, right? 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:02.380 You live literally at the network layer, both of you. 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:04.840 And by the way, we're going to have him on and do a show on Flask. 00:27:04.840 --> 00:27:05.360 Oh, fantastic. 00:27:05.360 --> 00:27:06.800 And other topics as well pretty soon. 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:08.600 I'm looking forward to listening to that. 00:27:08.600 --> 00:27:09.540 Yeah. 00:27:09.540 --> 00:27:14.040 But I think, you know, you probably feel it worse than a lot of people because you live at the network boundary. 00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:14.760 Yeah. 00:27:14.760 --> 00:27:20.560 To me, adding Python 3 to requests was, like, one of the most painful things I've ever done as a programmer. 00:27:20.560 --> 00:27:23.760 Definitely one of the most frustrating, if not the most frustrating. 00:27:23.760 --> 00:27:25.820 But I learned a lot from it, too. 00:27:25.820 --> 00:27:27.520 It got better in some ways. 00:27:27.520 --> 00:27:33.740 Like, in Python 2, it was admittedly unclear if you were dealing with bytes or Unicode. 00:27:34.060 --> 00:27:43.440 So before in requests, if you got back an HTTP response, and if I could decode it to Unicode, it would just be Unicode. 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.260 The content of it would be, like, response.content. 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.140 And if it was Unicode, it would be Unicode. 00:27:50.140 --> 00:27:51.040 If it was bytes, it would be bytes. 00:27:51.040 --> 00:27:52.140 And it would, like, change. 00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:56.480 And then when I went to 3, that, like, that API doesn't work anymore. 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:57.520 It's just not possible. 00:27:57.520 --> 00:27:58.600 So you had to split them up. 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.860 So now there's .content, which is always bytes, and there's .text, which is always Unicode. 00:28:02.860 --> 00:28:06.980 And that is a superior API design and something I should have done before. 00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:09.820 And using Python 3 helped me design it better. 00:28:09.820 --> 00:28:14.340 So I do think it's a good, you know, I think that there's a lot of benefits to using 3. 00:28:14.340 --> 00:28:18.860 I think that, you know, there'll be a lot less data loss errors that people have. 00:28:18.860 --> 00:28:21.680 But at the same time, it's, like, really fucking frustrating. 00:28:23.580 --> 00:28:24.760 Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. 00:28:24.760 --> 00:28:30.880 So how do you think Python 3 would look different if it was 90% use case? 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:35.300 Like, do you think there would be different pressure applied to it? 00:28:35.300 --> 00:28:37.600 Or would it just be slightly more polished? 00:28:37.600 --> 00:28:40.600 Do you mean if I... 00:28:40.600 --> 00:28:42.720 So, like, with requests, I say that... 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:49.820 Well, you'll imagine, like, we could snap our fingers and tomorrow, like, 90% of Python projects that are active today are using Python 3. 00:28:49.820 --> 00:28:50.100 Gotcha. 00:28:50.100 --> 00:28:51.680 What would that change? 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:52.440 What would the world look like? 00:28:52.600 --> 00:28:56.240 Do you think Python 3 would be changed by that? 00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:57.940 Or do you think people would just adapt? 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:03.780 Like, are there things in Python 3 that just haven't had enough, you know, we need it this way pressure put upon it? 00:29:03.780 --> 00:29:05.100 Oh, I see what you're saying. 00:29:05.100 --> 00:29:11.900 I feel like it is possible for us to have a 90% adoption rate now. 00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:13.660 It just takes a lot of time. 00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:22.080 And really the problem is that Python 3 right now isn't attractive enough to incentivize people to rewrite all their code to work with 3. 00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:24.460 If you have existing code, you know, you're not going to... 00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:26.120 You have to change it in order to get it to work. 00:29:26.860 --> 00:29:38.040 And so Python 3, I do think to get to that point, we either need a lot of time or we need to incentivize users by making something really attractive that looks really nice. 00:29:38.040 --> 00:29:40.780 You know, there's been some talks of, like, what if we remove the gill? 00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:42.160 Would that be attractive enough? 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:43.680 You know, and stuff like that. 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:45.540 There's a lot of different options. 00:29:45.540 --> 00:29:48.080 And none of them are very clear at this point. 00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:48.900 Right. 00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:50.100 That's a really interesting idea. 00:29:50.100 --> 00:29:52.360 And I do think you need, like, the killer reason. 00:29:52.360 --> 00:29:52.960 Yeah. 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.580 It forced a lot of people to go to the trouble of actually changing code. 00:29:56.580 --> 00:29:59.260 Like, it's one thing to say, we'll do new projects at Python 3. 00:29:59.260 --> 00:30:05.240 But, you know, how many new projects do people do versus, like, we've had this whole infrastructure for 10 years and now. 00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:06.360 It's so funny. 00:30:06.360 --> 00:30:09.200 I went to go do that recently and it was just so frustrating. 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.060 I think I was using Flask. 00:30:12.060 --> 00:30:12.900 I don't think it has. 00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:16.540 They support 3, but I don't know if it's, like, proper 3 support. 00:30:16.540 --> 00:30:17.900 There was something I was running into. 00:30:17.900 --> 00:30:20.600 And it was just, like, I wanted to throw my computer out the window. 00:30:20.600 --> 00:30:23.100 You know, and it's, like, everything works great with 2. 00:30:23.100 --> 00:30:24.100 Why should I have to deal with this? 00:30:24.100 --> 00:30:24.620 So I don't. 00:30:24.620 --> 00:30:26.880 And that's what everybody does because they don't. 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.160 So it'll be interesting to see what happens. 00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:34.480 I have faith that the community will, you know, whatever happens is what is intended to happen. 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:35.700 You know, it'll be for the best. 00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:37.640 Yeah. 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:38.740 I agree. 00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:45.380 I think it's just a little unhealthy that there's such, like, the forward progress is kind of being put on the language on 3. 00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:48.480 But a lot of the real work is still being done in 2. 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:51.760 And it just seems like that can't be a real positive thing. 00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:52.100 Yeah. 00:30:52.100 --> 00:30:57.240 And to me, the biggest problem is that we stand up and preach, you know, PEP20, the Xenopython, all the time. 00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:01.640 And one of the best ones in there is there should be one and only one obvious way to do it. 00:31:01.820 --> 00:31:05.340 And you go to python.org and you want to go download Python. 00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:08.860 And you have to pick Python 2 or Python 3. 00:31:08.860 --> 00:31:09.920 And it's like, what? 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:11.160 No. 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:15.140 You know, like, it's confusing for new users. 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.260 And so you have a lot of new users that are using 3. 00:31:18.260 --> 00:31:19.960 And they're actually really adamant about 3. 00:31:20.340 --> 00:31:29.820 So if you go onto, like, Reddit or Hacker News and you see anything about Python 2, you'll have all these people that are, like, bashing them and being like, why aren't you using 3, man? 00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:31.040 That's so old. 00:31:31.040 --> 00:31:32.560 And it's like, who are these people? 00:31:32.560 --> 00:31:35.900 Because I go to conferences and I meet all the Python developers that go to conferences. 00:31:35.900 --> 00:31:37.940 And those people aren't at the conferences. 00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:39.580 And it took me a while to figure it out. 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:40.840 It's the new people. 00:31:40.840 --> 00:31:47.940 Because when you're new and you're learning to code and it's like your hobby, you're, like, online all day, like, typing on Hacker News and on Reddit, you know? 00:31:47.940 --> 00:31:49.140 So there's, like... 00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:50.560 If you're not busy, you can go complain. 00:31:50.560 --> 00:31:51.320 Yeah, exactly. 00:31:51.560 --> 00:31:54.900 So, you know, the people who work for companies, they're using 2, you know? 00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:57.900 But, you know, the new kids are starting to use 3. 00:31:57.900 --> 00:32:02.000 And I would like for that to be the same community and not two different communities. 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.520 And it appears as though at this time there are two different communities. 00:32:04.520 --> 00:32:05.840 So I'm just... 00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:08.460 I just want us to be unified instead of separated. 00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:09.160 Yeah. 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:09.960 Well, that makes sense. 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:13.260 I mean, if you're starting a new project, you have the flexibility and whatever. 00:32:13.260 --> 00:32:20.480 But if you're working on older technology that, you know, was written before Python 3 even came out, there's maybe no choice at all, right? 00:32:20.580 --> 00:32:21.100 It's... 00:32:21.100 --> 00:32:22.240 That's what you're going to be using. 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:27.460 So a lot of the companies I visit, they're still Python 2 as well, of course. 00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:27.880 Yeah. 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.900 I don't know any major companies that are using 3 at all, but I'm sure there are some. 00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:33.000 Yeah. 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:36.760 There's a few I've talked to, but I can't... 00:32:36.760 --> 00:32:40.780 I don't want to say it because I might get it wrong and conflate them with other companies I spoke to. 00:32:40.780 --> 00:32:42.560 But yeah, there's a few, but you're right. 00:32:42.560 --> 00:32:44.300 But it's not a large portion. 00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:44.520 Yeah. 00:32:44.520 --> 00:32:49.060 But I'm hopeful that everything will unfold as it's supposed to. 00:32:49.500 --> 00:32:51.200 Did you guys talk about that at the Language Summit? 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.020 It was not brought up as much as you'd think. 00:32:54.020 --> 00:32:54.920 It was more... 00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:56.060 So there was one great talk. 00:32:56.060 --> 00:32:58.920 It was by Jacob, again. 00:32:59.560 --> 00:33:08.740 And he went up on stage and he was kind of just showing some numbers that he has access to on different adoption rates. 00:33:08.740 --> 00:33:10.000 And it was interesting. 00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:15.760 So basically what he said was that, you know, if we want to treat this like a... 00:33:15.760 --> 00:33:16.520 Oh no, it was Glyph. 00:33:16.520 --> 00:33:17.500 Glyph did a talk. 00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:18.100 Sorry. 00:33:18.100 --> 00:33:21.280 Jacob did a great talk on this same subject, but Glyph did a fantastic talk. 00:33:21.280 --> 00:33:22.180 The author of Twisted. 00:33:23.020 --> 00:33:26.760 And he got up there and he was saying, you know, look at this problem space that we have. 00:33:26.760 --> 00:33:29.540 We all agree that it's a problem, right? 00:33:29.540 --> 00:33:30.260 And everyone agrees. 00:33:30.260 --> 00:33:31.300 And he moves forward. 00:33:31.300 --> 00:33:32.380 And he's like, okay. 00:33:32.380 --> 00:33:35.560 So the problem is that we don't know what... 00:33:35.560 --> 00:33:38.640 We don't have anything to measure to see if we're improving on this problem. 00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.280 So the first thing we need to do is decide what does... 00:33:42.280 --> 00:33:44.540 You know, when this problem is solved, what does that look like, right? 00:33:44.540 --> 00:33:47.320 So to do that, you have to decide to measure something. 00:33:47.320 --> 00:33:50.740 So, you know, ideally it'd be like 20%. 00:33:50.740 --> 00:33:54.920 You know, so an example metric would be like 50% of Python downloads, 00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:57.880 of package downloads from the GShop or Python 3. 00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.780 Or like a majority of the downloads from Python.org for Python versions would be Python 3. 00:34:02.780 --> 00:34:06.080 Like, you know, let's pick something and try to optimize it, basically. 00:34:06.080 --> 00:34:09.460 And that was very much like what he was going for. 00:34:09.460 --> 00:34:13.160 He was like, let's not leave this room until we decide on a metric together. 00:34:13.160 --> 00:34:15.740 Or at least decide that we need a metric, right? 00:34:15.740 --> 00:34:19.400 And so it seemed as though everyone agreed that we needed a metric. 00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:21.760 We didn't even come close to deciding what it was. 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.600 But it was a good discussion. 00:34:24.600 --> 00:34:27.560 And I feel like that there's a lot of merit to that type of thinking. 00:34:27.560 --> 00:34:31.800 You know, treating us like a software project instead of like a hobby project, basically. 00:34:32.060 --> 00:34:32.420 Right. 00:34:32.420 --> 00:34:37.940 Well, yeah, let's make this a data-driven problem that we can apply graphs and science and statistics to or whatever, right? 00:34:37.940 --> 00:34:38.300 Exactly. 00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:38.660 Awesome. 00:34:38.660 --> 00:34:39.080 Exactly. 00:34:39.080 --> 00:34:41.040 So I think that's going to happen this year. 00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:42.460 It got everyone thinking, so. 00:34:42.460 --> 00:34:43.480 Yeah, that's cool. 00:34:43.480 --> 00:34:48.560 Like, one thought comes to mind is like track the number of requests from PIP2 versus PIP3. 00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:49.020 Precisely. 00:34:49.020 --> 00:34:51.720 Just, you know, just not necessarily even the downloads. 00:34:51.720 --> 00:34:56.160 Just the number of like how much are people using this version versus that version, right? 00:34:56.160 --> 00:34:56.880 Those kinds of things. 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:58.020 You should totally be able to track that. 00:34:58.020 --> 00:35:00.720 Yeah, and so there's some really great blog posts that have come out about this. 00:35:00.720 --> 00:35:03.220 Donald Stuff just did one today. 00:35:03.220 --> 00:35:05.860 His domain is caremad.io, I believe. 00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:10.420 And he just did his big blog post breaking down all the PIPI numbers. 00:35:11.180 --> 00:35:13.800 So I highly recommend checking that out because it shows you it's weird. 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:20.380 Web people are adopting Python 3 faster than the rest of the Python community by about 4%, which is pretty interesting. 00:35:20.380 --> 00:35:22.260 That is really interesting. 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:28.260 I think that is something I would have not predicted but would say, yeah, that seems like you're telling me something true. 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:32.420 You know, just hearing out of the blue is because you have so much more control over the server, right? 00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:33.920 You manage a thing. 00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:38.820 On the other hand, if you're shipping it out to the world, you don't know where it's going to land, right? 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:39.200 Exactly. 00:35:39.200 --> 00:35:41.800 Yeah, there's a scientific Python community. 00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:46.560 And I think that they're having smaller amounts of 3 adoption, but I have to learn more. 00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:47.540 Yeah, okay, interesting. 00:35:47.540 --> 00:35:48.980 Like the IPython guys and so on. 00:35:48.980 --> 00:35:49.760 Yeah, and Continuum. 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:51.920 And like they support 3 with like Anaconda. 00:35:52.300 --> 00:35:59.960 I think that is like a new thing that people are still adjusting to because these scientists, you know, if you're a data scientist, you're probably not a programmer. 00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:03.500 And, you know, you're someone who can use these tools. 00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:05.080 And so you don't care if it's 2 or 3. 00:36:05.080 --> 00:36:06.640 You just want to get your job done, basically. 00:36:06.640 --> 00:36:10.140 So I think 3 has a lot of political buy-in, basically. 00:36:10.140 --> 00:36:10.820 Cool. 00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:12.340 So you said you work at Heroku, right? 00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:12.520 I do. 00:36:12.520 --> 00:36:14.240 I'm the Python overlord at Heroku. 00:36:14.240 --> 00:36:16.720 It's good to be an overlord. 00:36:16.720 --> 00:36:18.140 I enjoy it. 00:36:18.140 --> 00:36:19.440 So what do you do in there? 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:21.120 What do you guys do with Python at Heroku? 00:36:21.120 --> 00:36:24.820 So I am basically, you know, Heroku supports a number of languages. 00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:28.420 We have like Ruby, Java, Node, PHP support, Python. 00:36:28.420 --> 00:36:31.760 And I am just in charge of everything related to Python. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:34.320 So I write a lot of documentation. 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.840 I help customers and I just improve the product. 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:43.820 And if you do like get push Heroku and like you have a Python app, then all the code that runs that is me. 00:36:43.820 --> 00:36:49.000 And then I go to speak to conferences and, you know, I'm on a podcast. 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:50.980 This is technically work, I guess. 00:36:50.980 --> 00:36:53.780 It's a good gig. 00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:54.480 Yeah, this is work. 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:54.800 Yeah. 00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:55.720 That's awesome. 00:36:55.720 --> 00:37:02.440 Yeah, it's really cool to be kind of out there as the community front for a cool company like Heroku. 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:03.480 Yeah, I enjoy it. 00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:05.480 Do you guys use it a lot internally? 00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:08.500 Like what can you talk about what technology you have for yourselves? 00:37:08.500 --> 00:37:08.880 Yeah. 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.800 So there's a couple different teams internally that use a lot of Python. 00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:17.840 There's specific spots in Heroku that are just kind of infrastructure that are written in Python. 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:25.700 So if all of our Postgres servers get continuously backed up, the wall logs get continuously backed up to S3. 00:37:26.260 --> 00:37:29.140 And it's written with a tool called Wally, which we have open sourced. 00:37:29.140 --> 00:37:32.140 And if you go onto our GitHub, you'll see it's written in Python. 00:37:32.140 --> 00:37:35.020 And a couple different things. 00:37:35.020 --> 00:37:44.300 If you do a git push to us, I believe over SSH, I believe all of those are received by a twisted conch shell, which is pretty cool in Python. 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:48.140 But there's a couple different teams internally that also use a lot of Python. 00:37:48.140 --> 00:37:53.960 There's the Heroku Connect team, which lets you interact with your Salesforce's data over Postgres. 00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:57.600 It gives you a Postgres database to read and write all your Salesforce data to. 00:37:57.600 --> 00:37:59.780 And that's like a Django app. 00:37:59.780 --> 00:38:04.000 And there's a couple other teams that, you know, a lot of tools that are built with Python. 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:04.860 Cool. 00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:06.160 That sounds really interesting. 00:38:06.160 --> 00:38:06.700 Yeah. 00:38:06.700 --> 00:38:07.500 It's pretty great. 00:38:07.500 --> 00:38:12.940 So before we go, let me ask you a question that asks, you know, all my guests. 00:38:12.940 --> 00:38:17.020 In addition to requests, what is your favorite package on PyPy? 00:38:17.020 --> 00:38:18.740 I have to pick one? 00:38:18.740 --> 00:38:21.160 Well, give me a couple that you really like. 00:38:21.160 --> 00:38:24.280 Just kind of mostly when I just draw people's attention to stuff that's cool. 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:25.240 Okay. 00:38:25.240 --> 00:38:27.280 So one of my favorites is called DocOpt. 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:28.980 D-O-C-O-P-T. 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:30.940 And what that is. 00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:35.440 So if you want to do a command line tool, you have to parse command line arguments. 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.960 And to do that, it's not very fun. 00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:41.740 There's arg parse and opt parse that are built into the standard library. 00:38:41.740 --> 00:38:42.680 And they're both terrible. 00:38:43.680 --> 00:38:45.720 I wrote something that makes it a little easier. 00:38:45.720 --> 00:38:46.940 But this guy killed it. 00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:55.760 So what he did was, it turns out that the help string that's printed out when you do like command dash H, right, on the command line. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:59.700 You know how you see those like little brackets and stuff that like tells you all the different options? 00:39:00.580 --> 00:39:02.800 That is an ANSI standard, it turns out. 00:39:03.600 --> 00:39:07.780 And so what he does is you just you write the help script. 00:39:07.780 --> 00:39:09.480 Like you write the help page. 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:11.480 And you know, and you like say all the different options. 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:15.640 And you write, you know, the little arguments and which ones are optional and which ones are positional and all this stuff. 00:39:15.640 --> 00:39:20.260 And from that, he completely writes all the parsing code for you. 00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:23.740 So you just give it a string and you just say, give me my arguments. 00:39:23.740 --> 00:39:27.200 And it gives you a dictionary with all the stuff and the booleans and the true falses. 00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:28.000 And it's incredible. 00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:28.760 I love it. 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:30.920 And that is really fantastic. 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:31.560 Yeah. 00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:34.300 And it's been it's been ported to like every language. 00:39:34.580 --> 00:39:36.320 So but I think Python is the default one. 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:38.620 So it's I'm a big fan of that project. 00:39:38.620 --> 00:39:39.580 Right. 00:39:39.580 --> 00:39:40.000 That's cool. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:42.200 I always feel like I'm reinventing the wheel when I go over there. 00:39:42.200 --> 00:39:43.500 It's like, OK, start from scratch. 00:39:43.500 --> 00:39:45.320 So that's great to bring that in. 00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:45.960 Yeah. 00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:47.360 Let's see. 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:50.020 Another one that I am excited about but haven't used yet. 00:39:50.020 --> 00:39:51.900 It's called Click by Armin Roeneker. 00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:54.980 And I'm sure you'll talk to him about that when you do your podcast with him. 00:39:54.980 --> 00:39:59.720 But a couple of years ago, I wrote a library for myself called Clint. 00:39:59.720 --> 00:40:03.080 And Clint was a command line application tools. 00:40:03.740 --> 00:40:05.120 It's a set of utilities, basically. 00:40:05.120 --> 00:40:10.780 I had a bunch of cool stuff in there like, you know, prompting for yes and no, parsing 00:40:10.780 --> 00:40:16.520 arguments, writing files to the home directory on every type of computer, you know. 00:40:16.520 --> 00:40:21.500 And I had my favorite module that I had in there was called eng.join. 00:40:21.500 --> 00:40:24.100 So you would give it, you know, a list of strings. 00:40:24.100 --> 00:40:30.680 And then it would it would join them properly with like an Oxford comma and conjunctions, you 00:40:30.680 --> 00:40:30.860 know. 00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:32.220 Oh, nice. 00:40:32.220 --> 00:40:32.620 Yeah. 00:40:32.620 --> 00:40:33.680 It's like really cool code. 00:40:33.680 --> 00:40:37.960 But it kind of I need to separate all that stuff out because it's kind of a dead project. 00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:38.960 I haven't used it in years. 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:43.300 And click is Armin's approach to the same problem. 00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:45.240 It doesn't do all the same stuff. 00:40:45.240 --> 00:40:47.860 But it's like, you know, Armin does amazing code. 00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:52.000 And so this is a project that just is like, if you're going to write command line applications, 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.140 you need to use click. 00:40:53.140 --> 00:40:54.960 So I'm really excited about that. 00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:55.460 Cool. 00:40:55.460 --> 00:40:56.320 Oh, excellent. 00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:57.580 Those are really nice. 00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:04.720 If I wanted to get started with Heroku as a Python, let's say I'm writing a Django app or Flask or something. 00:41:04.720 --> 00:41:05.500 What do I do? 00:41:05.500 --> 00:41:09.360 Well, you go to Heroku.com and you sign up for an account and it should tell you what to do. 00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:12.020 Awesome. 00:41:12.580 --> 00:41:12.900 Okay. 00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:14.600 So everyone check that out. 00:41:14.600 --> 00:41:15.060 Yeah. 00:41:15.060 --> 00:41:19.700 And if you have any questions about Heroku and Python, feel free to reach out to me or tweet at me or whatever. 00:41:19.700 --> 00:41:20.120 Yeah. 00:41:20.120 --> 00:41:20.540 Very cool. 00:41:20.540 --> 00:41:22.700 Any final shout outs you want to give? 00:41:22.700 --> 00:41:24.860 Off the top of my head? 00:41:24.860 --> 00:41:25.540 What do you think? 00:41:25.540 --> 00:41:28.820 I'm going to shout out to you for making this awesome podcast. 00:41:28.820 --> 00:41:29.960 Oh, thank you very much. 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:30.600 I appreciate it. 00:41:30.600 --> 00:41:31.080 You're welcome. 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.060 The world needs more Python podcasts. 00:41:33.060 --> 00:41:33.860 I agree. 00:41:33.860 --> 00:41:34.860 You're doing good work. 00:41:34.860 --> 00:41:35.560 Yeah. 00:41:35.560 --> 00:41:39.460 My original goal was not to start a Python podcast, but just to talk to some of them. 00:41:39.460 --> 00:41:43.620 And I found that they all had their last show like a year ago. 00:41:43.620 --> 00:41:44.240 I'm like, wait a minute. 00:41:44.240 --> 00:41:45.140 That can't be right. 00:41:45.140 --> 00:41:45.760 Nice. 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:46.920 Looked and looked and looked and looked. 00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:47.300 Yeah. 00:41:47.300 --> 00:41:48.620 It's sadly right. 00:41:48.620 --> 00:41:49.400 Mine included. 00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:53.460 I have a one episode podcast, but it was great. 00:41:53.460 --> 00:41:54.660 It had 6,000 listens. 00:41:54.660 --> 00:41:55.720 That's awesome. 00:41:55.720 --> 00:41:57.620 Where do people find it? 00:41:57.620 --> 00:41:59.080 It's called Import This. 00:41:59.080 --> 00:42:00.340 Import This. 00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:01.240 It's called Skainer and I. 00:42:01.240 --> 00:42:04.000 And we have two other episodes recorded. 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:05.420 It's just a matter of editing time. 00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:06.740 I would like to get a sponsor. 00:42:06.740 --> 00:42:09.900 So if we got a sponsor, it would be easier to edit. 00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:12.060 It would boost you back into it. 00:42:12.060 --> 00:42:12.540 Yeah. 00:42:12.540 --> 00:42:16.000 It's just like it took me eight hours to edit the first episode because I was doing like 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:17.040 Radiolab quality. 00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:25.780 So I either need to just settle for lower quality or ideally I'd be able to pay a company to edit 00:42:25.780 --> 00:42:26.300 it for me. 00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:27.200 But I don't know. 00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:27.540 We'll see. 00:42:27.540 --> 00:42:29.080 Exactly. 00:42:29.080 --> 00:42:29.860 That would be nice. 00:42:29.980 --> 00:42:31.920 I think editing is actually the most work. 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:32.660 It is. 00:42:32.660 --> 00:42:33.280 Yeah. 00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:34.060 It's ridiculous. 00:42:34.060 --> 00:42:36.860 So we'll get back to it eventually. 00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:38.840 Definitely. 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:39.500 Well, you should. 00:42:39.500 --> 00:42:39.880 All right. 00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:41.440 Kenneth, thank you so much for being on the show. 00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:42.640 It's been really interesting. 00:42:42.640 --> 00:42:46.960 And I especially appreciate like the insight into the language summit and stuff like that. 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:47.420 Absolutely. 00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:48.300 Thanks for having me. 00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:48.740 Yeah. 00:42:48.740 --> 00:42:49.120 You bet. 00:42:49.120 --> 00:42:50.720 And I will talk to you later. 00:42:50.720 --> 00:42:51.440 Have a good one. 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.680 This has been another episode of talk Python to me. 00:42:55.980 --> 00:42:57.800 Today's guest was Kenneth Wright. 00:42:57.800 --> 00:42:58.860 Thanks, Kenneth. 00:42:58.860 --> 00:43:04.340 Remember, you can find the links from the show at talkpythontimmy.com slash episodes 00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:06.300 slash show slash six. 00:43:06.680 --> 00:43:11.640 And if you're feeling generous, please check out our Patreon campaign at patreon.com slash 00:43:11.640 --> 00:43:15.720 mkennedy or work with your company to encourage them to sponsor an episode. 00:43:15.720 --> 00:43:17.680 Be sure to subscribe to the show. 00:43:17.680 --> 00:43:23.280 Visit the website and choose subscribe in iTunes or grab the episode RSS feed and drop it into 00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:24.480 your favorite podcatcher. 00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:26.760 You can find both these in the footer of every page. 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:28.300 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:43:28.300 --> 00:43:29.460 Thanks for listening. 00:43:29.460 --> 00:43:50.920 Stay tuned. 00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:51.100 .