WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:02.020 Where does your Python code actually run? 00:00:02.270 --> 00:00:03.300 A server in Virginia? 00:00:03.570 --> 00:00:04.720 A container in Frankfurt? 00:00:05.300 --> 00:00:07.140 Pyodide put Python in the browser. 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.140 Cloudflare put the browser into the server. 00:00:10.520 --> 00:00:12.560 Combine the two and you get Python workers, 00:00:13.160 --> 00:00:15.400 now generally available from Cloudflare. 00:00:15.630 --> 00:00:17.440 My guests are Hood Chatham, Jay Choi, 00:00:17.900 --> 00:00:19.820 and Dominic Pichetta from Cloudflare. 00:00:20.420 --> 00:00:22.000 Hood and Jay maintain Pyodide. 00:00:22.240 --> 00:00:25.020 Dominic got Python running in Cloudflare workers. 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:28.220 Your FastAPI app ships as plain files. 00:00:28.620 --> 00:00:31.660 Then you can run it on CPython, compiled to WebAssembly, 00:00:31.860 --> 00:00:35.980 inside V8, at over 350 locations worldwide. 00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:40.120 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 568, recorded October 9th, 00:00:40.460 --> 00:00:41.340 2026. 00:00:57.960 --> 00:00:59.220 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, 00:00:59.380 --> 00:01:02.580 the number one Python podcast for developers and data scientists. 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:03.860 This is your host, 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:04.500 Michael Kennedy. 00:01:04.940 --> 00:01:08.420 I'm a PSF fellow who's been coding for over 25 years. 00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:10.180 Let's connect on social media. 00:01:10.500 --> 00:01:12.760 You'll find me and Talk Python on Mastodon, Bluesky, 00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:13.660 and X. 00:01:13.940 --> 00:01:15.700 The social links are all in your show notes. 00:01:16.540 --> 00:01:20.040 You can find over 10 years of past episodes at talkpython.fm. 00:01:20.240 --> 00:01:23.420 And if you want to be part of the show, you can join our recording live streams. 00:01:23.800 --> 00:01:24.260 That's right. 00:01:24.450 --> 00:01:25.700 We live stream the raw, 00:01:25.860 --> 00:01:27.700 uncut version of each episode on YouTube. 00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:32.720 Just visit talkpython.fm/youtube to see the schedule of upcoming events. 00:01:32.940 --> 00:01:36.600 Be sure to subscribe there and press the bell so you'll get notified anytime we're recording. 00:01:37.119 --> 00:01:37.600 Tomorrow, 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:38.320 Wednesday, 00:01:38.540 --> 00:01:41.620 November 4th, we're having our first tech meetup, 00:01:42.060 --> 00:01:44.400 our live tech event as part of Talk Python membership. 00:01:44.980 --> 00:01:46.000 If you're not yet a member, 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:46.600 well, 00:01:47.100 --> 00:01:48.360 join up and support the show 00:01:48.580 --> 00:01:51.360 and get an awesome community and experience to boot. 00:01:51.880 --> 00:01:54.660 Just visit talkpython.fm, click membership in the nav bar, 00:01:54.860 --> 00:01:55.900 and you'll be off to the races. 00:01:56.520 --> 00:01:57.580 If you are a member, 00:01:57.800 --> 00:02:03.720 we'll be talking about Talk Python in production and some really wild new ideas that I'm exploring. 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:07.560 I think you will find both fascinating and actually really practical, 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:08.560 but no one's doing it. 00:02:09.080 --> 00:02:10.679 So join me on Wednesday, November 4th. 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:12.600 And if you're listening to this after and thinking, Michael, 00:02:12.760 --> 00:02:14.260 why did you just put this in here? 00:02:14.360 --> 00:02:16.740 Nobody can listen to it because most people listen to after. 00:02:17.200 --> 00:02:18.520 These tech meetups come with recordings. 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.160 Just visit talkpython.fm, click on membership, 00:02:21.320 --> 00:02:23.440 and then browse past member meetups and you'll be able to get it. 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:26.800 So hopefully either you can join live or you can join afterwards. 00:02:27.580 --> 00:02:28.100 Become a member, 00:02:28.260 --> 00:02:28.840 support the show, 00:02:29.420 --> 00:02:29.840 join the event. 00:02:30.540 --> 00:02:31.360 Dominic J. 00:02:31.880 --> 00:02:32.060 Hood, 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.140 welcome to all of you to Talk Python To Me. 00:02:34.390 --> 00:02:34.980 Awesome to have you here. 00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.880 Awesome to be here. 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:36.420 Yeah, 00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:40.220 I'm really excited to talk about Python on the Edge. 00:02:40.580 --> 00:02:42.400 It's very exciting what you all have announced. 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.700 And I know it's been out there on Cloudflare for a little bit, 00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:49.800 but it's now officially formalized, officially supported, 00:02:50.020 --> 00:02:51.060 a little more smooth. 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:52.820 So Python workers, 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:54.100 very, very cool topic. 00:02:54.610 --> 00:02:55.260 Before we get to that, 00:02:55.440 --> 00:02:56.880 though, let's just do a quick, 00:02:57.040 --> 00:02:57.780 who are you? 00:02:58.260 --> 00:03:01.360 Just give me a little bit of your background and what you do and so on. 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:02.760 Dominic, we'll just go around the squares here. 00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:03.360 Dominic, go first. 00:03:04.160 --> 00:03:04.280 Sure. 00:03:05.330 --> 00:03:08.040 I mean, I can get started how I got into Python. 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:10.020 And that starts at, 00:03:10.720 --> 00:03:13.380 I guess, a very young age when I was playing with Visual Basic.net. 00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:14.900 And I realized that I hate Windows. 00:03:15.460 --> 00:03:21.600 I needed to get to Linux and Visual Basic.net back then did not support Linux at all. 00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:22.000 So 00:03:22.540 --> 00:03:25.200 a couple of my friends were using Python. So that's how I got into it. 00:03:26.140 --> 00:03:26.620 Afterwards, 00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:30.360 I actually got a little bit annoyed that Python was interpreted. 00:03:30.880 --> 00:03:31.800 So I looked for 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.060 alternatives and I got involved in the NIMH programming language. 00:03:36.440 --> 00:03:37.880 And I became one of the 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:39.440 core developers of that for a while. 00:03:40.660 --> 00:03:41.520 Fast forward a lot. 00:03:42.340 --> 00:03:43.440 I was working at 00:03:44.140 --> 00:03:51.020 meta and then I moved to Cloudflare to work on the workers runtime team working there on a bunch of 00:03:51.700 --> 00:03:53.120 features for workers in general. 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:58.040 I actually was the person I guess that kind of experimented with 00:03:58.160 --> 00:04:05.760 Pyodide at Cloudflare and got it working and running and then eventually we got Hoodin to 00:04:05.790 --> 00:04:11.060 help us out with that and we started Python Workers and I've been working on that ever since as well 00:04:11.540 --> 00:04:12.100 And still do. 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:12.740 Very, 00:04:12.920 --> 00:04:13.240 very excellent. 00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:13.820 You know, 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.560 a word I haven't thought about for a while 00:04:15.760 --> 00:04:17.000 is visualbasic.net. 00:04:17.299 --> 00:04:19.060 I've written a little bit, a little bit. 00:04:19.239 --> 00:04:21.940 I mean, we're talking a couple of files of visualbasic.net. 00:04:22.280 --> 00:04:23.220 What of her boast language? 00:04:23.410 --> 00:04:23.840 I don't know. 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:25.300 Great language to learn with, though. 00:04:25.580 --> 00:04:26.340 It is, it is. 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:28.760 You know, I think it's interesting to contrast that 00:04:28.900 --> 00:04:29.200 with Python, 00:04:29.450 --> 00:04:29.540 actually, 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:31.680 because Python also had many 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:33.440 of the same goals of VB, 00:04:33.660 --> 00:04:35.800 but it somehow accomplished it 00:04:35.850 --> 00:04:38.340 with a lot less stuff on the screen. 00:04:38.740 --> 00:04:40.240 You know, like there's not begin if, 00:04:40.460 --> 00:04:41.940 end if, all this type of stuff. 00:04:42.030 --> 00:04:42.860 But yeah, very, very fun. 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:43.320 Jay, 00:04:43.520 --> 00:04:43.920 welcome. 00:04:44.280 --> 00:04:44.500 Hey, 00:04:44.860 --> 00:04:47.880 I think I can start with how I started using Python as well, 00:04:48.060 --> 00:04:48.660 like Dominic. 00:04:48.860 --> 00:04:54.740 So I also started programming using some Visual Basic NC when I was like 10 years ago. 00:04:55.010 --> 00:05:01.120 And then I started learning Python when I was in second grade in university, 00:05:01.340 --> 00:05:01.700 I think. 00:05:01.960 --> 00:05:07.860 I was having some data science course learning about packages like ThumbPy and SciPy. 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.160 That was when I first started using Python. 00:05:10.650 --> 00:05:12.120 And I just fell in love with Python. 00:05:12.760 --> 00:05:15.060 Like making apps were so easy with Python. 00:05:15.370 --> 00:05:19.920 So I was using, I started, starting then I started using Python for like 10 years. 00:05:20.880 --> 00:05:22.620 And around 2021, 00:05:23.410 --> 00:05:28.720 I started contributing to a library called Pyodip, 00:05:28.880 --> 00:05:31.760 which I think we will talk a lot in this podcast. 00:05:32.320 --> 00:05:37.080 And yeah, after maintaining it for around one or five years, 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:45.980 I got invited to Cloudflare to work on Python workers using Pyrodite from Hoots and joined Cloudflare. 00:05:46.400 --> 00:05:51.300 And yeah, after that, I was working on Cloudflare Python workers for around a year. 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:55.760 That's super cool that contributing to the project got you that position. 00:05:56.520 --> 00:05:59.440 It's like, I'm really interested in this thing and I get to work on it for a while. 00:05:59.540 --> 00:06:00.340 And all of a sudden they're like, well, 00:06:00.580 --> 00:06:02.560 what if we paid you to do it all the time? 00:06:02.980 --> 00:06:04.080 That's just great, right? 00:06:04.360 --> 00:06:04.580 Yeah, 00:06:04.760 --> 00:06:10.560 it's really interesting that you start to contribute on open source and you get a job with that. 00:06:10.780 --> 00:06:15.020 That's something that all the open source contributors are hoping to. 00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:16.080 Good. Welcome to the show. 00:06:16.380 --> 00:06:19.360 I started out on Lispy MLE languages. 00:06:19.960 --> 00:06:22.520 So I'm a mathematician by training. 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:29.060 I wrote my first Python code for undergraduate introduction to programming class. 00:06:29.520 --> 00:06:35.200 but then I didn't use it at all until I had to write an email schedule for the math seminar 00:06:35.780 --> 00:06:42.600 which was in Python 2.7 and I am as a mathematician I was very interested in 00:06:43.820 --> 00:06:50.360 math software to try to get software that does a good combination of like research level 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:58.239 you know like high performance computing and also just like quick experiments and lets people 00:06:58.540 --> 00:07:01.780 figures step out. And I found out that mathematicians don't like to install software 00:07:02.320 --> 00:07:03.720 on their computer. They assume it won't work. 00:07:04.550 --> 00:07:05.100 Of course, a lot of... 00:07:05.100 --> 00:07:06.480 They still have scars from Fortran. 00:07:06.640 --> 00:07:06.920 That's why, 00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:07.200 probably. 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:08.180 Yeah. 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:08.840 And also, 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:14.480 a lot of math software is made by mathematicians and it's not an easy thing to 00:07:14.580 --> 00:07:16.500 distribute software for other people to use. 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:18.120 And so it's like they have something that works on 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.000 their computer and they tell all their friends, oh, you should use this. And they say, nah, 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:21.280 man. 00:07:22.380 --> 00:07:28.220 So that was how I got interested in WebAssembly. I mean, I first started by writing software in 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:32.600 LaTeX because mathematicians already have LaTeX on their computer and they already have TechLive 00:07:32.610 --> 00:07:33.180 on their computer. 00:07:33.570 --> 00:07:36.100 And that's a package manager. It can just get your package onto their computer 00:07:36.280 --> 00:07:36.600 automatically. 00:07:37.140 --> 00:07:41.580 But like people just wouldn't use things that didn't come sort of connected with 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:42.820 something they already had on their computer. 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:45.600 And because browsers are a universal computing 00:07:45.820 --> 00:07:46.000 platform, 00:07:46.280 --> 00:07:50.760 you know, I watched the birth and death of JavaScript back in like 2014 or whatever. 00:07:51.280 --> 00:07:52.380 One of the best talks ever. 00:07:52.870 --> 00:07:53.300 So good. 00:07:53.700 --> 00:07:53.820 Yeah, 00:07:54.170 --> 00:07:54.300 yeah, 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:54.880 it's so good. 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:57.680 And so I was very excited about the idea of like, 00:07:57.900 --> 00:07:58.020 oh, 00:07:58.220 --> 00:08:00.400 we should just make the software work in WebAssembly 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:01.540 and ship it to the browser. 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:04.340 And then mathematicians won't be able to like complain 00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:06.700 that it's maybe takes some work to install. 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:09.700 But then if you want to have like, 00:08:09.900 --> 00:08:10.040 you know, 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:11.180 powerful math software, 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:11.720 you know, 00:08:12.100 --> 00:08:14.140 I wrote all the linear algebra stuff in Rust, 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:14.980 but then, 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:15.600 you know, 00:08:16.380 --> 00:08:19.620 you don't really get that much control over it from Rust. 00:08:20.220 --> 00:08:23.080 And you can make a GUI, you can give people JavaScript, 00:08:23.580 --> 00:08:24.640 But, you know, 00:08:25.260 --> 00:08:33.260 JavaScript is really a bit anemic in terms of, you know, like, for instance, our logic have lots of tables of things that were indexed by, you know, tuples of integers. 00:08:34.099 --> 00:08:34.820 And like, 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:35.380 you know, 00:08:35.700 --> 00:08:39.979 having a map in Python that is nicely indexed by tuples of integers is like, 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:41.340 you know, you could do it in JavaScript. 00:08:41.560 --> 00:08:42.460 It's just it's just a pain. 00:08:42.820 --> 00:08:46.880 So I really wanted to get Python to be in my web application with everything else. 00:08:47.820 --> 00:08:52.920 And so I found out about Pyodine and I started messing around with it, but it was really buggy and didn't work very well. 00:08:53.260 --> 00:08:54.900 you know, I mean, it was a sort of technical, 00:08:55.400 --> 00:08:56.060 you know, 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:57.040 like demonstration. 00:08:57.280 --> 00:08:58.080 I mean, it showed 00:08:58.200 --> 00:08:59.460 a lot of promise because, 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:00.100 you know, 00:09:00.260 --> 00:09:02.820 there was NumPy there running in the browser. 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:03.680 So, 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:04.100 you know, 00:09:04.180 --> 00:09:05.760 these binary extensions were working. 00:09:06.400 --> 00:09:06.580 But, 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:07.460 you know, 00:09:07.660 --> 00:09:09.680 Mike Dropeboom did like amazing work at 00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:14.900 Mozilla to get that working. And I mean, Mozilla really created this whole cool chain on top of it. 00:09:15.260 --> 00:09:15.720 Anyways, 00:09:15.980 --> 00:09:17.860 I can maybe say more about that later. 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:21.279 But I found PyDyde and it was just a bit after 00:09:21.300 --> 00:09:26.160 mozilla killed the whole project so it wasn't you know um roman urchuk was like just barely keeping 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.800 the lights on and i showed up and i was like here are all the things that are bad about what's 00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:35.640 currently going on it kind of expecting him to be like oh like you're an asshole go away but he was 00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:40.360 like oh well why don't you come fix those things and so so i so he made me into a maintainer it 00:09:40.540 --> 00:09:46.300 actually first took another math that i was working with on the same project uh dexter who who had some 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.540 experience with open source and so he started contributing to fix the problems that i found i 00:09:50.560 --> 00:09:52.240 I was like, oh, I guess I can contribute to this. 00:09:53.340 --> 00:09:53.480 Yeah. 00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:56.680 That's a great way to handle somebody coming and say, I have these complaints. 00:09:56.940 --> 00:09:57.240 It's like, 00:09:57.660 --> 00:09:58.140 instead of saying, 00:09:58.520 --> 00:09:59.840 go away, it's like, you know what? 00:10:00.180 --> 00:10:01.100 Here's how you can fix them. 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:01.620 Yeah, 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:01.960 right. 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:03.000 Yeah, very productive. 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:03.540 Right. 00:10:03.640 --> 00:10:04.540 They weren't defensive at all. 00:10:04.660 --> 00:10:06.040 They were just like, great, we want this to be better. 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:06.540 Like, 00:10:06.860 --> 00:10:08.460 if you want to make it better, please make it better. 00:10:09.420 --> 00:10:13.800 And so then I got a National Science Foundation postdoc for math. 00:10:14.220 --> 00:10:16.460 I said I would improve mathematical computing software. 00:10:16.680 --> 00:10:19.660 And so I ended up spending most of that postdoc working on Pyodide. 00:10:20.500 --> 00:10:26.460 And then when I was leaving the postdoc, I got hired to Anaconda to work on their PyScript stuff. 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:28.260 And then about six months later, 00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:33.920 I got connected to Cloudflare and they were interested in me working on making Python workers exist. 00:10:34.300 --> 00:10:36.760 That was obviously a very fun project. 00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:37.820 Yeah, 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.620 PyScript is such an interesting project. 00:10:40.380 --> 00:10:42.080 I don't know what the future holds for PyScript, 00:10:42.300 --> 00:10:43.840 but it's a very neat project. 00:10:44.280 --> 00:10:45.680 Yeah, it was really an interesting project. 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:46.460 Actually, 00:10:46.780 --> 00:10:50.840 a lot of people first learned about running Python in the browser from PyScript, 00:10:51.090 --> 00:10:52.100 not from Pyodide. 00:10:52.520 --> 00:10:54.200 Yeah, it was a really interesting project. 00:10:54.540 --> 00:10:59.020 It's very unfortunate they turned into a maintenance mode recently, but they did a real great job. 00:10:59.020 --> 00:11:00.040 I know, it makes me sad. 00:11:02.020 --> 00:11:03.120 Maybe it's just taking a break. 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:05.660 Maybe it'll come back in the future in some amazing form. 00:11:05.740 --> 00:11:12.300 I would love to see a React or a Vue alternative that just runs all on PyScript. 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:12.500 But, 00:11:12.840 --> 00:11:16.380 you know, I don't think backed by Pyodide, backed by MicroPython, 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:17.220 which would be, 00:11:17.640 --> 00:11:19.580 you know, I think a little more practical for web front end. 00:11:19.680 --> 00:11:22.640 But that is an alternate reality and a different thing that we're talking about. 00:11:22.780 --> 00:11:29.540 So let's begin maybe just a quick review of like running in the browser. 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:33.120 So the goal of Pyodide is to run wherever WebAssembly runs. 00:11:33.580 --> 00:11:33.900 Primarily, 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:34.640 that's the browser, 00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:35.840 though it doesn't have to be. 00:11:35.920 --> 00:11:39.380 You know, you can kind of treat WebAssembly a bit like a Docker type of thing, like an isolation. 00:11:39.380 --> 00:11:40.120 You can use the JavaScript. 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:40.420 Right. 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:47.840 So it does not work in WASM time or these other WebAssembly only run times, but it should work in any JavaScript run. 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:50.220 I see. So I could run it locally if I had, say, 00:11:50.520 --> 00:11:51.740 Node or Bun or something like that, maybe? 00:11:52.040 --> 00:11:52.420 Absolutely. 00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:52.800 Yeah. 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:53.760 Okay. That's interesting. 00:11:54.160 --> 00:11:57.480 So we have this WASM execution time, 00:11:58.280 --> 00:11:59.140 execution framework here. 00:11:59.620 --> 00:12:06.260 And the idea you all had is like, well, we have all these points of presence throughout the world with Cloudflare. 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:07.500 How many places, 00:12:08.190 --> 00:12:10.820 how many spots does this run at? You all know. 00:12:10.880 --> 00:12:15.600 oh i don't know by heart there's like a website you can go on and tells you the 00:12:16.020 --> 00:12:22.140 all of them i think i think the number is above 350 yeah yeah it sounds like yeah so that puts 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:29.560 10 tends to a hundreds on any given continent right so the idea is with these these kind of 00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:32.220 getting ahead of ourself a little bit but the idea is like well what if we could take this 00:12:32.740 --> 00:12:39.719 pyodide thing that is a miniature python runtime and put it really really close to all the users 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.120 and execute it there instead of routing back, 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:42.620 you know, 00:12:43.020 --> 00:12:45.460 somewhere in US East 1 or something like that, right? 00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:46.300 Yeah, precisely. 00:12:46.740 --> 00:12:51.360 I mean, you're giving the exact explanation 00:12:51.540 --> 00:12:54.840 that I think a lot of our, like, marketing people would give, 00:12:55.250 --> 00:12:55.720 which is great. 00:12:56.620 --> 00:12:56.820 Basically, 00:12:57.180 --> 00:12:57.260 yeah, 00:12:57.420 --> 00:12:57.560 like, 00:12:57.870 --> 00:13:00.220 you want as little latency as possible 00:13:00.250 --> 00:13:00.800 for your users, 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:01.100 right? 00:13:01.130 --> 00:13:03.660 So you want to run Python code as close to them as possible, 00:13:03.810 --> 00:13:05.760 and this is a very great way to do that. 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:07.620 Yeah, and it doesn't run, to be clear, 00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:13.640 what we're talking about does not run in the browser of users like Pyodide can. 00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:19.860 It runs in the edge nodes of Cloudflare that happen to be very near the users, right? 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:23.680 So I think that's a big difference because it gives you access to an entire platform 00:13:24.280 --> 00:13:27.440 like data and queues and all that kind of stuff that we're going to talk about, 00:13:27.620 --> 00:13:27.680 right? 00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:31.600 The way I like to describe it is like Pyodide is kind of this crazy idea of like, 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.360 we should put Python into the browser. 00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:35.680 And then Cloudflare is kind of this crazy idea of like, 00:13:35.680 --> 00:13:37.560 we should put the browser into the server. 00:13:38.060 --> 00:13:39.800 and so when you put Python into the browser 00:13:39.860 --> 00:13:41.020 and you put the browser in the server, 00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:42.880 that's a funny way of getting Python into the server. 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.740 Yeah, as a mathematician by the transitive property, 00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:46.940 you click it all together. 00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:48.940 It sounds like a crazy idea though. 00:13:49.220 --> 00:13:49.460 Yeah. 00:13:50.040 --> 00:13:51.960 So let's talk PyDyde just for a minute 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:53.080 before we dive in, 00:13:53.300 --> 00:13:55.140 now that people see where we're going with PyDyde. 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:56.460 Let's talk about it a little bit 00:13:56.680 --> 00:13:57.620 because very recently, 00:13:57.980 --> 00:13:58.700 let's put some, 00:13:58.880 --> 00:13:59.500 one month ago, 00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:03.920 Hood and JU2 gave a talk at EuroPython, 00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:05.340 which I thought was really interesting. 00:14:05.560 --> 00:14:06.140 Python Everywhere, 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.000 the state of Python on WebAssembly. 00:14:08.270 --> 00:14:09.780 So this is a more general, 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.840 not just Cloudflare worker type of story, 00:14:13.060 --> 00:14:15.440 but give us an update. 00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:17.340 What is the state of Python on WebAssembly? 00:14:17.640 --> 00:14:18.440 Things are good. 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:26.320 It feels like there is less and less stuff that's going wrong. 00:14:27.680 --> 00:14:31.219 So I have these Python enhancement proposals 00:14:31.220 --> 00:14:37.040 to try and rearrange the governance of our code 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:40.780 so that it can live maybe more of the stuff 00:14:41.140 --> 00:14:42.560 in the CPython repository. 00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:46.580 But yeah, I mean, I remember just a few years ago 00:14:46.670 --> 00:14:48.560 that there were always like crazy problems 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:53.040 and lots of confusing bugs. 00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:55.380 And it was like, 00:14:55.590 --> 00:14:55.780 yeah, 00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:57.440 like we got lots of bug reports 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:58.700 that would just be like, 00:14:58.730 --> 00:15:00.040 I have no idea what to do with this. 00:15:01.260 --> 00:15:04.400 But it feels like we really polished it a lot. 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:11.980 And I mean, especially Jay moved all of the package build system into external repositories. 00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:16.020 And so the package build system is much less causing us trouble, 00:15:16.400 --> 00:15:19.560 although it's still still causing us some residual trouble. 00:15:19.760 --> 00:15:23.380 But now we have the PEP that says we can upload packages to PyPI. 00:15:23.860 --> 00:15:30.760 So it really feels like it's kind of making this graceful landing and approaching something that, you know, 00:15:31.040 --> 00:15:34.100 it will always take maintenance to keep up with upstream Python, 00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:36.720 but I'm sort of feeling like 00:15:36.870 --> 00:15:39.660 it's taking less and less in addition to that, which is nice. 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:42.140 What's the situation or the state 00:15:42.380 --> 00:15:47.460 with Pyodide and Python on WebAssembly in terms of being officially supported by the core 00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:48.580 developers of Python? 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:54.320 I feel like it's gotten some sort of build support acknowledgement before they 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:59.760 were willing to ship CPython that Python on WebAssembly also compiles. Is that right? 00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:00.460 Yeah, 00:16:00.650 --> 00:16:02.820 so, right, so Python, 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:05.920 sorry, so the platform we have is called Emscripten, right? 00:16:06.170 --> 00:16:08.080 This is the Emscripten compiler tool chain, 00:16:08.650 --> 00:16:14.020 which is this incredible thing that is front end for Clang and ships. 00:16:14.920 --> 00:16:18.200 JavaScript system calls JavaScript implementation of a file system. 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:22.520 It's like a JavaScript Musa Linux that Emscripten compiles to. 00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:29.380 And so we have to recommend that people go back and watch the birth and death of JavaScript because it tells the story so well, right? 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:29.760 Yeah, 00:16:30.140 --> 00:16:31.520 it's one of the greatest videos ever, 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:31.940 for sure. 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:35.180 And so, okay, so Emscripten is the platform, 00:16:35.680 --> 00:16:39.600 and Emscripten is tier three supported upstream by Python. 00:16:40.900 --> 00:16:42.960 And what that means is that we, 00:16:43.180 --> 00:16:44.260 well, we run it in CI, 00:16:45.760 --> 00:16:46.240 and, 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:48.260 you know, it's best effort, 00:16:48.540 --> 00:16:48.760 you know, 00:16:48.980 --> 00:16:50.140 people are allowed to break it, 00:16:50.400 --> 00:16:50.600 and, 00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:52.360 like, I come back and fix it. 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:56.060 And it's not a release block, 00:16:56.060 --> 00:16:58.640 or they, in fact, do not make releases for Emscripten. 00:16:59.620 --> 00:17:09.980 The reason they don't make releases for Emscripten is because they don't have really a version of like the OS module or for Emscripten. 00:17:09.980 --> 00:17:13.620 So they can't really do IO very much. 00:17:14.100 --> 00:17:15.660 They can't make requests. 00:17:16.459 --> 00:17:18.140 You know, they can't do HTTP stuff. 00:17:18.600 --> 00:17:20.260 They can't receive user input. 00:17:20.459 --> 00:17:22.560 And so in my opinion, 00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:25.920 if we build these executables, 00:17:26.560 --> 00:17:29.860 but no one would want to use it as it is built upstream. 00:17:30.110 --> 00:17:31.240