WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:02.600 Building on the web is like working with the perfect clay. 00:00:02.980 --> 00:00:05.320 It's malleable and can become almost anything. 00:00:05.900 --> 00:00:09.660 Too often, frameworks try to hide the web's best parts away from us. 00:00:10.120 --> 00:00:15.060 Today, we're looking at PyView, a project that brings real-time power of Phoenix LiveView 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:20.660 directly into your Python world while keeping the web elements front and center. 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:24.000 I'm joined by Larry Ogrodnek to dive into PyView. 00:00:24.250 --> 00:00:29.580 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 535, recorded January 9th, 2026. 00:00:47.580 --> 00:00:51.900 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, the number one Python podcast for developers and data scientists. 00:00:52.420 --> 00:00:57.740 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 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Now let's get on to the show. 00:02:41.300 --> 00:02:43.500 Larry, welcome to Talk Python To Me. Awesome to have you here. 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:45.080 Yeah, thanks, Michael. It's great to be here. 00:02:45.500 --> 00:02:51.060 I saw your project, PyView, and you're like, oh, hey, maybe you could just give it a little shout-out. 00:02:51.140 --> 00:02:53.740 And I'm like, this is super neat, the way this thing works. 00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:57.620 And as most people know who listen, I'm a big fan of web development. 00:02:58.220 --> 00:03:02.040 The last episode that we just released, not actually the one, 00:03:03.640 --> 00:03:05.580 time shifting because of recording podcasts, 00:03:05.880 --> 00:03:09.480 was with all the creators of the popular Python web frameworks as a panel. 00:03:09.600 --> 00:03:11.000 And that was super popular. 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:14.500 So here we are back with another web topic, PyView. 00:03:14.640 --> 00:03:17.340 And it's got a really, really unique twist. 00:03:18.040 --> 00:03:20.740 And I think people are going to dig it. 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:21.940 It's quite interesting. 00:03:22.260 --> 00:03:24.100 Gosh, I've been doing technology for a long time now, 00:03:24.130 --> 00:03:26.560 and I think the web has always just been amazing, right? 00:03:26.740 --> 00:03:28.660 It's an amazing platform, and so I think that's why people 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.140 kind of gravitate towards web frameworks 00:03:31.530 --> 00:03:33.840 and interesting web technologies and what can you do now 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:34.840 and how can we make it easier? 00:03:35.600 --> 00:03:36.100 Yeah, it's funny. 00:03:36.110 --> 00:03:37.820 I did think PyView would resonate with you a little bit 00:03:37.900 --> 00:03:40.260 just because I know that, I don't know if this is true, 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.260 but it seems like you do appreciate really not just like, 00:03:43.530 --> 00:03:45.140 you know, obviously Python, but web technologies 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:47.580 and especially like embracing web technologies 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:50.300 and maybe not necessarily kind of hiding them. 00:03:50.540 --> 00:04:14.360 Yeah, exactly. That is one of the things that really appealed to me because there are some Python frameworks that build webmaps, but their goal is to pretend that HTML and CSS is really bad. It's like, you don't want to write a simile. We're going to put that away from you. You don't need to see this HTML or the CSS or any of those things. Get it away. And I feel like something is lost there. 00:04:14.420 --> 00:04:19.060 Like building on the web is just, it's like the perfect clay, right? 00:04:19.200 --> 00:04:23.720 It's, it is so malleable and it can become almost anything that you want it to be. 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.640 And a lot of those frameworks, I think they just miss that. 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:28.260 And I don't feel like what you built does. 00:04:28.460 --> 00:04:31.380 So I'm going to be, I think we're having a good time talking about it. 00:04:31.520 --> 00:04:31.960 No, thanks. 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:32.920 Yeah, I'm excited to get into it. 00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:35.340 But quick introduction, Larry, who are you? 00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:37.000 Thanks. 00:04:37.260 --> 00:04:37.360 Yeah. 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:39.140 So my name is Larry Ogrodnek. 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:43.880 I've been a software developer for, you know, I guess let's just say over 25 years now. 00:04:44.300 --> 00:04:48.560 I don't age myself too much. But through that time, obviously, I've done a bunch of different 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:54.020 things and worked at startups. I worked at big companies. I've worked at freelancing for a few 00:04:54.140 --> 00:05:01.740 years even. And so my early career, it was more kind of on the C pro side, a lot of backend work, 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:08.940 diving into Java and then Scala. And when I was doing freelancing, obviously the language of the 00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:13.920 tech kind of depended on the client wanted to do and what the project entailed. But that's kind of 00:05:13.940 --> 00:05:15.540 to get more serious about using Python. 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:20.020 And nowadays, I work at a startup in the construction industry. 00:05:20.690 --> 00:05:21.660 And we think of ourselves-- 00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:21.720 JOHN MUELLER: Oh, really? 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:21.840 Yes. 00:05:22.770 --> 00:05:26.080 But we're really trying to invest heavily in technology 00:05:26.200 --> 00:05:26.640 and software. 00:05:27.080 --> 00:05:29.260 We're trying to be a technology-enabled home builder. 00:05:29.740 --> 00:05:31.000 And so we have a huge investment. 00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:33.960 And we have-- I mean, not necessarily a huge tech team, 00:05:34.080 --> 00:05:38.100 but spending any money and employment on tech 00:05:38.150 --> 00:05:40.260 is kind of a big deal in this industry. 00:05:41.340 --> 00:05:46.600 And I think it's an industry that hasn't really had technology get great adoption. 00:05:48.460 --> 00:05:53.240 Different people are doing different things, but overall, there's been a hard time to kind of get it in that process. 00:05:53.350 --> 00:05:54.520 But there's a lot of areas for improvement. 00:05:54.690 --> 00:05:57.720 And so, you know, we're trying to make that process better, faster, smoother. 00:05:59.060 --> 00:06:08.040 I think there's a lot of possibility for pick your underserved by tech specialization and build businesses around there. 00:06:08.290 --> 00:06:10.780 If you're a Python developer or any kind of developer. 00:06:10.960 --> 00:06:17.220 But if you really have the skill to build things like connecting APIs and automations and stuff, 00:06:18.580 --> 00:06:20.000 it's just such fertile ground. 00:06:20.140 --> 00:06:23.060 It's like, wow, there's nobody building stuff here that is like, good. 00:06:23.540 --> 00:06:23.920 Let's go. 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:25.040 I could do this, right? 00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:26.800 100%. 00:06:26.840 --> 00:06:30.300 And I think, yeah, like, Tim, maybe to your point, there's a lot of kind of low-hanging fruit 00:06:30.500 --> 00:06:34.620 where it's just like just even getting some of the information in people's heads in a structured 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.100 way and even having, like, different processes defined in a structured way. 00:06:38.500 --> 00:06:40.360 Like, you get huge improvements from that. 00:06:40.580 --> 00:06:42.340 And this is kind of just like why we love technology, right? 00:06:42.460 --> 00:06:45.500 Is you have these building blocks and it's like, oh, now that we have this in a structured 00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:48.540 format, we can actually do these interesting things with it that we couldn't do before 00:06:48.840 --> 00:06:50.760 because it was just on someone's notepad or whatever. 00:06:51.900 --> 00:06:52.760 And so, yeah, you're right. 00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:54.600 I think there's still a lot of issues like that. 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:56.200 And home building is for sure a big one. 00:06:58.199 --> 00:06:59.540 And yeah, it's been interesting. 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:05.340 I mean, our main, actually, construction platform that manages our construction projects. 00:07:05.700 --> 00:07:10.540 So we have an interesting part of that, what you were saying, is it can be hard in underserved 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:14.040 There are underserved areas to sort of have that domain expertise. 00:07:14.250 --> 00:07:15.360 And so you have to find a good partner. 00:07:15.610 --> 00:07:18.460 And one of the things we've done is we actually build the homes. 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:22.600 So we're not just writing software for other builders to use, but we're building homes ourselves. 00:07:22.870 --> 00:07:27.940 And that's been a huge benefit because we have people building homes that we can sit down with and say, like, does this make sense? 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:28.900 Like, does it not make sense? 00:07:29.030 --> 00:07:29.800 Like, why, why not? 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:35.200 And, you know, we have to obviously push on both sides sometimes because we are trying to change things. 00:07:35.330 --> 00:07:35.420 Right. 00:07:36.960 --> 00:07:40.300 But that's been, I think it'd be almost impossible to do without. 00:07:41.020 --> 00:07:45.260 It's the dog fooding equivalent, the software dog fooding, right? 00:07:45.380 --> 00:07:45.540 Exactly. 00:07:46.380 --> 00:07:46.880 You're building. 00:07:47.580 --> 00:07:48.460 They're building, you're building. 00:07:48.640 --> 00:07:49.840 So then you can. 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:50.720 I know. 00:07:50.880 --> 00:07:53.700 And it can be frustrating to get these phone calls like, why is this working? 00:07:54.020 --> 00:07:55.700 Like, you're going to make me late for this or that. 00:07:55.960 --> 00:08:01.880 But, you know, again, like those having those really strong partnerships, like, I don't know, it's critical to be able to get something that actually works. 00:08:02.320 --> 00:08:02.540 Yeah. 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.420 Well, it sounds actually super exciting. 00:08:04.520 --> 00:08:05.240 I mean, I know you sold it. 00:08:05.260 --> 00:08:06.140 It's like, oh, we're just building. 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:07.400 Just working in a building. 00:08:07.640 --> 00:08:08.660 No, this is cool. 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:10.100 It's cool, yeah. 00:08:10.190 --> 00:08:14.800 And for the last couple of years, I've been doing a lot on our kind of more AI services team. 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:23.420 And I'm not a machine learning researcher, but most of the work I've been doing has been around kind of productionizing that work and building services around it. 00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:30.400 And we've done really cool stuff like with, I mean, just like pricing models for the homes, which is kind of more traditional machine learning stuff. 00:08:30.580 --> 00:08:32.360 and then like schedule simulation stuff. 00:08:33.260 --> 00:08:35.240 And more recently, a lot of LLM-based stuff, 00:08:35.719 --> 00:08:37.099 both for kind of like, you know, 00:08:37.280 --> 00:08:38.180 rag style chat workflows. 00:08:38.310 --> 00:08:39.280 Like you can imagine you're in the field 00:08:39.310 --> 00:08:40.180 and you're like, you know, 00:08:40.280 --> 00:08:42.159 is this the right tile pattern? 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:44.640 And maybe that's buried on like page 500 00:08:44.770 --> 00:08:46.880 of a Google spreadsheet or something like that. 00:08:46.930 --> 00:08:48.440 And being able to pull up quickly is huge. 00:08:49.460 --> 00:08:50.780 And now some of the stuff we're trying to do 00:08:50.900 --> 00:08:53.220 is more around automating schedule updates. 00:08:53.570 --> 00:08:55.680 So someone can kind of walk through a home 00:08:55.940 --> 00:08:56.820 and just, you know, 00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:57.960 do kind of stream of consciousness. 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:03.660 Like, you know, this is the status of like this, like, you know, this is running late, whatever. 00:09:04.170 --> 00:09:14.600 And then we kind of, we have a multi-stage process, but we kind of, you know, turn the video into images and turn the transcription into notes and then try and like see what we can, what's in the photo, right? 00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:23.180 Like, is that the right tile pattern? Is that the right stove? And use LLMs for different parts of this process to kind of, you know, come up with recommendations at the end. 00:09:23.300 --> 00:09:27.840 like, oh, it actually looks like the drywall is totally installed and we can mark that as done 00:09:27.920 --> 00:09:32.880 or whatever. And, you know, having the automation is actually super helpful because having up-to-date 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:37.980 schedules drives a lot of stuff, right? It's just like the efficiency of making sure people are on 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.040 site and not delayed is huge. So that's been really- 00:09:41.040 --> 00:09:46.020 There's so many touch points of so many subcontractors and things, right? Like, 00:09:46.020 --> 00:09:49.599 when is the plumber going to be here? Well, they need to be here when the inspection for plumbing 00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:54.860 is here but that got you know like it's people who haven't gone through like somehow some kind of 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:59.580 a house like i had a big home home improvement it's not quite the right word but like this big 00:10:00.580 --> 00:10:05.900 outside project with like a barbecue thing and so on done and wow after doing that i'm like there's 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:11.240 i've got a lot of ideas for making this better this is bad no i know right and some of those 00:10:11.460 --> 00:10:14.540 delays are like super costly and it's funny because like a lot of things even in terms of 00:10:14.540 --> 00:10:18.739 like budgeting like right like if you buy too much material that's bad because you're wasting money 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:28.100 But if you buy too little, that's actually even worse because like maybe, you know, you need more whatever lumber and maybe there's, you know, two weeks, you know, turnaround time to get it. 00:10:28.170 --> 00:10:34.480 And so and again, if you have to reschedule things like inspections, who knows when the next available one is, it might push the project out, you know, weeks. 00:10:34.800 --> 00:10:42.380 And so, yeah, there's a lot of interdependencies, a lot of, like you said, people and communication remains a very tricky problem. 00:10:43.340 --> 00:10:44.400 That's always one of the things. 00:10:44.860 --> 00:11:13.480 Well, it sounds awesome. And I'm also interested to see if your project at all touches on that. But let's dive in. Let's dive into PyView. Now, the first thing I want to point out here with PyView is it is not PyWebView, which has been around for three or four years at minimum. And I imagine that like a lot of people have seen this. PyWebView is a way to embed basically a browser into something that you can wrap as a desktop app. PyView, totally different. What's the elevator pitch on PyView? 00:11:13.540 --> 00:11:38.040 Totally different. Yeah. So the later pitch in PyView is basically, you know, it's one of those self-referential things. Hopefully I won't try and say Phoenix LiveView, but, you know, when you're building, when you're building modern web apps, and this is one of the things that I've seen, right, is, you know, if you want to have this rich interactivity, you want to have like a really rich client experience, maybe you reach for something like React or Vue. And, you know, those are great frameworks. 00:11:38.540 --> 00:11:44.060 But then you also have your backend server maybe managing the state and the database and those relationships and maybe talking to other servers. 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:46.600 Maybe that's in Python or another language, whatever. 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.120 And you kind of have to manage these two different pieces and they each have their own state. 00:11:51.500 --> 00:12:02.220 And it's very, you know, there can be a lot of complexity when you, yeah, the client is showing something slightly different than the server or vice versa and having to synchronize that state and keep them in sync. 00:12:02.520 --> 00:12:04.900 Plus, often there's a lot of glue code in between them, right? 00:12:05.180 --> 00:12:11.080 Like having to just go from the Python backend to the JavaScript frontend and back and forth. 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:16.620 Even when things are in the same language, like I've worked on TypeScript apps where it's TypeScript backend and frontend, 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:20.640 it's kind of rare that you actually share a lot of code for that layer. 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:23.060 Things end up kind of drifting anyway and being different. 00:12:23.480 --> 00:12:37.540 And so PyView, the idea is, you know, what if you can have your backend server manage all your state, you're writing all your application logic in Python, you're just rendering HTML like you would for a static site. 00:12:38.680 --> 00:12:47.960 But when different interactions happen, like when you just click a button or enters a form field or, you know, different things happen on the friend end, we send an event to the server. 00:12:48.470 --> 00:12:50.560 The server processes the event and changes its state. 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:55.120 So for example, maybe, I mean, this is a simple counter example, but you press plus on the counter. 00:12:55.530 --> 00:12:57.440 Then the server increments the count by one. 00:12:57.670 --> 00:13:06.340 It does a full re-render, but it does kind of a diff and says, oh, actually, looking at this full page, all I need to do is tell the front end to change zero to one. 00:13:06.770 --> 00:13:10.000 And so it efficiently sends that over a WebSocket connection. 00:13:10.390 --> 00:13:13.520 And I feel like there's already a lot there that maybe that wasn't the clearest description. 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:27.080 But the idea is kind of more like, can we get SPA level interactivity, you know, including things like multi-user presence stuff, server push, really fast UI updates, you know, really fast local navigation, not doing full page reloads. 00:13:27.230 --> 00:13:35.960 But on the back end, our mental model really is something like a traditional static, you know, not static site generator, but like a static rendering thing. 00:13:36.110 --> 00:13:36.600 So I don't know. 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:37.780 Was that clear? 00:13:39.550 --> 00:13:40.120 I think. 00:13:42.300 --> 00:13:42.420 Yes. 00:13:43.020 --> 00:13:44.180 It sounds like a lot. 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:46.460 And what I think is cool about PyView 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:48.920 is that it takes a lot of that 00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:50.440 and it just makes it automatic 00:13:50.920 --> 00:13:52.460 over a simple programming API, right? 00:13:52.760 --> 00:13:53.320 Yeah, exactly. 00:13:53.670 --> 00:13:55.120 So that's the thing is you don't have to think 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:56.680 about a lot of this kind of plumbing. 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:58.480 And this is the one kind of, 00:13:58.540 --> 00:13:59.660 I mean, we'll get into this more. 00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:00.880 Like this is something that I, 00:14:01.130 --> 00:14:01.940 an idea that I came up with. 00:14:01.940 --> 00:14:03.320 This is something that has been around 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:04.220 for a little while on, 00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:06.540 in the Elixir side. 00:14:06.690 --> 00:14:07.300 It comes from this, 00:14:07.830 --> 00:14:09.000 this thing called Phoenix Live View. 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:10.320 But yeah, you know, 00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:11.959 a framework actually can take care 00:14:11.980 --> 00:14:13.080 of a lot of this for us. 00:14:13.140 --> 00:14:15.120 And so as developers, all we really 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.700 need to worry about is updating our state when events come in 00:14:19.100 --> 00:14:22.200 and rendering, doing a render of this. 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.520 Given the state, what should we render to the back end? 00:14:24.520 --> 00:14:26.680 And the framework manages the WebSocket connection. 00:14:26.940 --> 00:14:27.860 It manages the messages. 00:14:28.140 --> 00:14:29.940 It manages doing the diffing. 00:14:30.260 --> 00:14:31.840 And so we don't have to think about any of that. 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.760 We really just need to think about how do I update my state 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.180 and how do I render the website? 00:14:37.640 --> 00:14:39.720 And so it ends up being really powerful just having 00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:40.880 these very simple building blocks. 00:14:41.660 --> 00:14:43.260 And this is the kind of thing that-- 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:45.120 I mean, I'm not anti-JavaScript in general, 00:14:45.460 --> 00:14:47.380 but obviously we're using JavaScript on the front end. 00:14:47.560 --> 00:14:51.100 But by having this very generic JavaScript layer that just 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:54.240 knows really simple things like, here's 00:14:54.280 --> 00:14:58.480 how I send messages when a button is pressed 00:14:58.700 --> 00:14:59.880 or when a text field changes. 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:01.660 There's very simple building blocks, 00:15:01.800 --> 00:15:04.000 but you end up being this very powerful system 00:15:04.180 --> 00:15:05.620 when you bring them together. 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:07.260 And you don't really have to write JavaScript 00:15:07.400 --> 00:15:09.920 for these interactions because, again, most of the things 00:15:10.340 --> 00:15:10.920 are very simple. 00:15:11.180 --> 00:15:13.400 It's like, you know, I need to change whatever. 00:15:14.180 --> 00:15:20.080 Your project is pretty new, which I'm hoping to shine a light on it because I think it's going to get a lot of attention. 00:15:20.580 --> 00:15:29.240 Out in the audience, Alessio points out that, hey, this is kind of like HTMX and Django with fragments, but over WebSockets. 00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:34.200 And yeah, I feel like it does have some HTMX vibes. 00:15:34.760 --> 00:15:39.700 And for those of you who haven't tried it, HTMX is like, you sprinkle just a couple of extra attributes on there. 00:15:39.880 --> 00:15:41.420 And then somehow behind the scenes, 00:15:41.780 --> 00:15:44.260 there's additional communication that you don't worry about. 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:46.540 It's just say, oh, if somebody clicks this image, 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:49.800 actually do this server thing and replace part of the page-- 00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:51.200 maybe the image, maybe something else-- 00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:53.240 with the server HTML response. 00:15:54.020 --> 00:15:57.500 How do you feel that PyView, Phoenix LiveView sort of 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:01.560 relates to that and like Datastar, who I'm going to have on the-- 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:01.740 Yeah. 00:16:02.280 --> 00:16:03.100 No, I think that's right. 00:16:03.330 --> 00:16:07.140 I think that's a very thoughtful comment, 00:16:07.170 --> 00:16:09.180 because I think that is a lot of it. 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:12.720 And if I had to think in terms of comparisons 00:16:12.900 --> 00:16:16.060 to different frameworks, I think doing something with HTMX 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:18.360 probably is the closest comparison. 00:16:18.540 --> 00:16:20.800 Because again, it's HTML based. 00:16:21.520 --> 00:16:25.420 We are responding to events and wiring up to the server 00:16:25.760 --> 00:16:28.040 and processing them and sending back HTML fragments. 00:16:28.520 --> 00:16:31.020 I think the difference is that PyView 00:16:31.180 --> 00:16:32.400 is a little more structured, right? 00:16:32.560 --> 00:16:37.100 Because with HTMX, you have a lot more control, 00:16:37.260 --> 00:16:38.060 which can be a good thing. 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:40.000 But it's a little more-- 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:42.460 you're kind of wiring up these things yourself 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.660 to a certain extent, saying like, when you click on this, 00:16:45.920 --> 00:16:50.140 call this back end route and replace the contents of this 00:16:51.380 --> 00:16:52.760 element with the response from that. 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.480 And on the back end, you're sending full HTML 00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:56.420 and things like that. 00:16:56.520 --> 00:16:57.320 So that's one difference. 00:16:58.020 --> 00:17:01.040 So yes, it is over WebSockets with PyView versus HTMX. 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:05.120 The other thing is we do have this kind of diffing technology 00:17:05.459 --> 00:17:08.160 where we're only sending what actually changed. 00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:13.800 So I mean, we can go into more detail at some point 00:17:13.800 --> 00:17:14.800 about how the templating works. 00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:17.520 But for something like changing the encounter from 0 to 1, 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.520 it's like we're really just sending back the 1. 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:22.720 And obviously, as the page gets more complex, 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.079 the diffs get more complex. 00:17:25.300 --> 00:17:26.280 But we're just sending the diffs. 00:17:26.740 --> 00:17:28.920 And again, the framework kind of handles-- 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:29.880 no, you don't have-- as a developer, 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:31.260 you don't have to think about what part of the page 00:17:31.340 --> 00:17:32.200 do I update. 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:34.300 And it's kind of encoded to a certain extent in your template. 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:38.520 you know, it's kind of more hands-off. 00:17:38.620 --> 00:17:40.100 And so you do give up some flexibility, 00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:43.660 but then, you know, the framework kind of gets to handle 00:17:43.740 --> 00:17:47.140 a lot of things for you in a smoother integrated way, 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:47.740 I would say. 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:48.520 Just handles it. 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:48.700 Yeah. 00:17:49.100 --> 00:17:50.740 With HTMX, which I am a fan of, 00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:53.460 you have to think about every little piece. 00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:56.340 And you say, if somebody interacts with this part, 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:58.100 then I want this action to happen. 00:17:58.320 --> 00:17:59.660 And then this thing over here, you know, 00:17:59.860 --> 00:18:01.719 these parts of the pages are going to be 00:18:02.020 --> 00:18:06.080 where the response of the server gets redirected back into. 00:18:06.660 --> 00:18:09.860 And it seems like it's more just handled a little bit here. 00:18:10.260 --> 00:18:12.680 Let's talk a little bit about Phoenix Live View, 00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:17.140 because while your project is pretty new, Phoenix Live View has, 00:18:17.540 --> 00:18:20.260 I don't know how old it is, a couple of years, it looks like, 00:18:21.140 --> 00:18:23.740 but it's got 6,700 stars. 00:18:24.020 --> 00:18:26.180 So it's a really solid foundation. 00:18:26.840 --> 00:18:29.439 And your project, what's the relationship between 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:31.920 PyView and Phoenix LiveView? 00:18:32.330 --> 00:18:32.440 Right. 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:35.520 So LiveView is obviously the inspiration for PyView. 00:18:35.650 --> 00:18:40.640 I think, you know, when I mean, I don't know, when I started thinking about like, 00:18:40.930 --> 00:18:44.500 you know, there's got to be a better way to building these kinds of apps in Python, I came 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.820 across Phoenix LiveView and kind of really loved this model, especially just, I don't 00:18:48.860 --> 00:18:51.580 know, I kind of, I do like thinking this event kind of base system. 00:18:52.350 --> 00:18:55.820 And it seemed like, yeah, you get all the really nice things for free. 00:18:55.830 --> 00:18:56.920 So definitely was the inspiration. 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:04.080 And then when I started working on PyView, I had the thought like, well, they've already kind of figured out a good model for how this works and how things fit together. 00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:09.780 And they already have a good client side story for implementing the client side component of this. 00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:20.600 So what I tried to do with PyView is actually use, you know, I ship their Phoenix LiveView front end client JavaScript is what you're running in a PyView app on your front end. 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.660 And I kind of implemented a Python backend. 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:26.960 So if you think about LiveView as a protocol, which to be clear, it is not. 00:19:28.020 --> 00:19:31.800 There's sort of just some, you know, have to do some reverse engineering of how things work. 00:19:32.020 --> 00:19:38.940 It's not really documented because I think, you know, on their end, it really is an internal implementation detail about how the front end communicates with the back end. 00:19:40.300 --> 00:19:47.580 But, you know, we get the, that really was a huge boost for me because I get to use their client JavaScript, which handles all the diffing. 00:19:48.120 --> 00:19:51.080 And again, a big part of it too is just kind of they do have a really nice design. 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:53.820 So like you mentioned, Phoenix Live View has been around for a while. 00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:55.100 It's a very popular project. 00:19:55.320 --> 00:20:01.020 I think if you are in this ecosystem, so it's written in Elixir, which is a different programming 00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:04.480 language that runs on the Erlang virtual machine. 00:20:04.820 --> 00:20:07.700 And just to be clear, it's a totally great language. 00:20:08.120 --> 00:20:09.400 It has a lot of really cool features. 00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:10.920 It's nothing against Elixir. 00:20:11.100 --> 00:20:17.960 It's just that for different reasons, I wanted this paradigm in the Python world because I'm 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:19.980 I'm working, you know, especially at work, I'm working on Python apps. 00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:21.820 And that's the kind of world I live in. 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.200 And, you know, it's, it's, we can't change everything over to different languages. 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:28.520 Just, you know, I'll throw it out there for you. 00:20:28.530 --> 00:20:29.860 You don't have to take the bullets. 00:20:30.050 --> 00:20:33.780 But I think functional programming languages are super interesting. 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:38.420 They apply really well in certain to solve certain problems. 00:20:38.530 --> 00:20:41.760 And I know some people, it's the hammer for all nails. 00:20:42.460 --> 00:20:46.940 But for most people, functional programming is, it's just not what they're working in. 00:20:47.020 --> 00:20:52.920 you know, things where you can change variables and have state turn out to be more productive 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:59.200 ways to write code, even if it maybe is not provably as correct or as thread safe or whatever, 00:20:59.460 --> 00:20:59.560 right? 00:20:59.600 --> 00:21:05.000 Like, so if most people are going to adopt it, most people are not using functional programming 00:21:05.140 --> 00:21:08.980 languages and Erlang in particular, Python happens to be more popular than Erlang. 00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:09.460 Yeah. 00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:10.040 Yeah. 00:21:10.220 --> 00:21:13.560 Well, there's different, I'll let you take those bullets, Michael. 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.580 But yeah, I mean, look, different languages are good for different use cases, right? 00:21:16.760 --> 00:21:19.900 And but again, I think it's a really great idea that I thought, let me steal this. 00:21:20.120 --> 00:21:24.240 And so, yeah, this is something that was written by, I think, Chris McCord is like the author of Live View. 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:26.300 And it's been around, yeah, for a long time. 00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:27.300 It's gone through different iterations. 00:21:28.260 --> 00:21:31.920 But yeah, it's incredibly popular in that ecosystem. 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:34.940 And yeah, they've done, I think, really great, great things with it. 00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:35.920 Yeah. 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:38.300 And let's I just want to give a little shout out. 00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:46.180 If you go to the Phoenix Live View GitHub, which, of course, I'll link in the show notes, there's a live demo on Fly that you can check out. 00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:48.440 And there's also a two minute video. 00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:49.940 Watch the two minute video. 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:56.920 It really shows like, okay, this is a quite an interesting and quite capable technology. 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:00.480 It might sound like, oh, you can't do very much with this because I don't know. 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:02.980 It seems like it's only built to make a few things easy. 00:22:03.380 --> 00:22:07.680 I, after watching what he built there with this app with Phoenix Live View, I was impressed. 00:22:08.120 --> 00:22:08.740 It's quite flexible. 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:09.680 No, for sure. 00:22:09.840 --> 00:22:11.980 And there's a lot of, I think it took a lot of work to get there too, right? 00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:16.340 Just to give, you know, them a little more, a lot of credit, like, because a lot of the 00:22:16.420 --> 00:22:29.580 I mean, it's interesting because like once you take this approach to being having everything over WebSockets, well, then actually it's pretty great because it opens up a lot of things that could be hard, like things like, yeah, like presence, like knowing different users that are, you know, on the same documenter page as you or like server pushes. 00:22:29.770 --> 00:22:35.800 You kind of get a lot of that stuff, not, you know, for free, but it's easy when that's kind of your base layer is everything over WebSockets. 00:22:35.850 --> 00:22:42.540 But then some things like file uploads, like as part of this, they invented a way to kind of do file uploads over WebSockets. 00:22:43.320 --> 00:22:43.980 Oh, that's interesting. 00:22:44.060 --> 00:22:47.960 Yeah, because how do you do that, right? 00:22:48.290 --> 00:22:51.000 And WebSockets do support both like text and binary messages. 00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:55.240 So it's not as crazy as you would think, but there is like a limit to, you know, you have to kind of, you know, chunk it and stuff like that. 00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:58.180 But so it supports that. 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:04.220 And, you know, I mean, again, we can talk more about file, but there are other options for also going like direct to S3 or, you know, different things. 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:08.020 But, yeah, you know, a lot of work has gone into this and including around the optimization. 00:23:08.270 --> 00:23:09.440 Like, what is that message format? 00:23:09.520 --> 00:23:13.920 Like, how do you send minimal diffs for not just things like, you know, simple template changes? 00:23:14.140 --> 00:23:19.820 but when you have lists or components or maybe you have huge lists of things, 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:24.620 how do you efficiently manage that on both the server side and the client side? And so I think 00:23:24.700 --> 00:23:29.580 there's a lot of great ideas for dealing with this that were pioneered by Phoenix Live View that I 00:23:29.590 --> 00:23:34.960 get to come along and kind of just steal. That's cool. Here's the downtime version. 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.020 Yeah, exactly. And I think that's kind of was like a lot of the focus early on was trying to 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:47.080