WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:04.940 Today on Talk Python, the creators behind FastAPI, Flask, Django, Quart, and Litestar 00:00:05.500 --> 00:00:09.740 get practical about running apps based on their frameworks in production. 00:00:10.580 --> 00:00:15.060 Deployment patterns, async gotchas, servers, scalings, and the stuff that you only learn 00:00:15.060 --> 00:00:16.900 at 2 a.m. when the pager starts going off. 00:00:17.460 --> 00:00:20.700 For Django, we have Carlton Gibson and Jeff Triplich. 00:00:21.140 --> 00:00:23.220 For Flask, we have David Lord and Phil Jones. 00:00:23.860 --> 00:00:27.660 And on Team Litestar, we have Yannick Noverde and Cody Fincher. 00:00:28.140 --> 00:00:31.700 And finally, Sebastian Ramirez from FastAPI is here as well. 00:00:32.279 --> 00:00:32.860 Let's jump in. 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:38.400 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 533, recorded December 17th, 2025. 00:00:55.900 --> 00:00:57.260 Welcome to Talk Python To Me. 00:00:57.380 --> 00:01:00.620 the number one Python podcast for developers and data scientists. 00:01:01.300 --> 00:01:02.520 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:01:02.900 --> 00:01:06.440 I'm a PSF fellow who's been coding for over 25 years. 00:01:07.100 --> 00:01:08.200 Let's connect on social media. 00:01:08.540 --> 00:01:11.680 You'll find me and Talk Python on Mastodon, Bluesky, and X. 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:13.800 The social links are all in your show notes. 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:18.080 You can find over 10 years of past episodes at talkpython.fm. 00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:21.560 And if you want to be part of the show, you can join our recording live streams. 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:22.280 That's right. 00:01:22.470 --> 00:01:25.740 We live stream the raw uncut version of each episode on YouTube. 00:01:26.140 --> 00:01:30.740 Just visit talkpython.fm/youtube to see the schedule of upcoming events. 00:01:30.950 --> 00:01:34.620 Be sure to subscribe there and press the bell so you'll get notified anytime we're recording. 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:39.500 Hey, before we jump into the interview, I just want to send a little message to all the companies 00:01:39.800 --> 00:01:43.420 out there with products and services trying to reach developers. 00:01:44.260 --> 00:01:45.680 That is the listeners of this show. 00:01:46.160 --> 00:01:50.000 As we're rolling into 2026, I have a bunch of spots open. 00:01:50.130 --> 00:01:55.980 So please reach out to me if you're looking to sponsor a podcast or just generally sponsor 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:59.820 things in the community and you haven't necessarily considered podcasts, you really should. 00:02:00.720 --> 00:02:04.120 Reach out to me and I'll help you connect with the Talk Python audience. 00:02:05.080 --> 00:02:10.220 Thanks everyone for listening all of 2025. And here we go into 2026. Cheers. 00:02:11.640 --> 00:02:19.140 Hello, hello, Carlton, Sebastian, David, Cody, Yannick, Phil, Jeff, welcome back to Talk Python, 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:22.920 all of you. Thanks for having us. Thank you for having us. Happy to be here again. We're here for 00:02:22.940 --> 00:02:30.260 what may be my favorite topic for sure. Something I spend most of my time on is web API stuff, 00:02:30.600 --> 00:02:36.320 which is awesome. So excited to have you here to give your inside look at how people should 00:02:36.320 --> 00:02:41.400 be running your framework, at least the one that you significantly contribute to, depending on 00:02:42.040 --> 00:02:47.500 which framework we're talking about, right? It's going to be a lot of fun, and I'm really excited 00:02:47.500 --> 00:02:51.739 to talk about it. However, there's an interesting fact that I've been throwing out a lot lately is 00:02:51.760 --> 00:02:56.680 that fully half of the people doing professional Python development have only been doing it for two 00:02:56.820 --> 00:03:01.760 years or less. And some of you been on the show, it was maybe two years longer than that. Let's just 00:03:01.760 --> 00:03:06.740 do a quick round of introductions for people who don't necessarily know you. We'll go around the 00:03:06.880 --> 00:03:11.280 squares here in the screen sharing. So Carlton, you're up first. Oh, I get to go first. Brilliant. 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:15.980 Well, I'm Carlton. I work on the Django Red framework mostly. I'm a former Django fellow. 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:20.220 I maintain a number of packages in the ecosystem. And the last few years I've been back to building 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:25.420 stuff with Django rather than working on it. So I run a build startup that's, well, we're still 00:03:25.600 --> 00:03:30.680 going. So I'm quite excited about that. Awesome. How is it to be building with Django than building 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:36.060 Django? Oh, I'm literally having the time of my life. Like I spent five years as a Django fellow 00:03:36.200 --> 00:03:42.000 working on Django and I just built up this backlog of things I wanted to do and I had no time and no 00:03:42.200 --> 00:03:46.740 capacity and no, no sort of nothing to work on with them. And it's just, it's just a delight. 00:03:46.980 --> 00:03:50.460 And every day I sit down on my computer thinking, oh, what's today? 00:03:50.610 --> 00:03:51.420 I look at the background. 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:52.100 Oh, yes. 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:54.260 And every day, a delight. 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:56.640 So I'm still just loving it. 00:03:56.700 --> 00:03:57.100 That's awesome. 00:03:57.250 --> 00:04:01.500 So more often you're appreciating your former self than cursing your former self 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:02.300 for the way you built. 00:04:04.040 --> 00:04:05.840 Yeah, that's an interesting one. 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:07.100 I think we should move on before. 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:08.300 All right. 00:04:08.420 --> 00:04:08.620 All right. 00:04:09.040 --> 00:04:14.100 Speaking of building with and for Sebastian, FastAPI. 00:04:14.230 --> 00:04:14.340 Hello. 00:04:14.700 --> 00:04:14.900 Hello. 00:04:15.980 --> 00:04:18.100 So, okay, intro for the ones that don't know me. 00:04:18.100 --> 00:04:19.060 I'm Sebastian Ramirez. 00:04:19.579 --> 00:04:21.100 I created FastAPI. 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:23.000 Yeah, that's pretty much it. 00:04:23.340 --> 00:04:27.780 And now I have been building a company since the last two years, FastAPI Cloud, to deploy 00:04:27.980 --> 00:04:28.360 FastAPI. 00:04:28.400 --> 00:04:33.060 So, I get to drink from funny cups, as you can see. 00:04:33.520 --> 00:04:34.720 The world's best boss. 00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:35.400 Amazing. 00:04:36.180 --> 00:04:39.520 So, I think you deserve to give a bit of a shout out to FastAPI Cloud. 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:40.200 That's a big deal. 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:40.660 Thank you. 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:41.480 Thank you very much. 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:42.880 Yeah, it's super fun. 00:04:42.900 --> 00:04:47.080 And the idea is to make it super simple to deploy FastAPI applications. 00:04:47.540 --> 00:04:52.120 The idea with FastAPI was to make it very simple to build applications, build APIs, 00:04:52.940 --> 00:04:57.700 and get the idea from idea to product in record time. 00:04:57.800 --> 00:04:59.060 That was the idea with FastAPI. 00:04:59.140 --> 00:05:02.820 But then deploying that, in many cases, is just too cumbersome. 00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:03.500 It's too complicated. 00:05:03.820 --> 00:05:05.260 There are just so many things to that. 00:05:05.700 --> 00:05:09.200 So I wanted to bring something for people to be able to say, like, 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.360 hey, just one command FastAPI deploy, and we take care of the rest. 00:05:12.700 --> 00:05:15.660 And then we and the team, I have an amazing thing 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:16.980 that I've been able to work with. 00:05:17.320 --> 00:05:20.200 We suffer all the cloud pains so that people 00:05:20.380 --> 00:05:21.400 don't have to deal with that. 00:05:21.520 --> 00:05:25.840 And yeah, it's painful to build, but it's so cool to use it. 00:05:25.860 --> 00:05:27.780 You know, like that's the part when I say like, yes, 00:05:28.220 --> 00:05:29.400 this was worth it. 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:32.240 When I get to use the thing myself, that is super cool. 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.240 MARK MANDEL: Yeah, I'm assuming you build FastAPI 00:05:34.400 --> 00:05:35.560 Cloud with FastAPI somewhat. 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:37.440 FRANCISCO MOLIN: Yes, yes, yes, exactly. 00:05:37.820 --> 00:05:39.720 FastAPI Cloud runs on FastAPI Cloud. 00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:44.200 And I get just like now random things in there and like, yes. 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:45.260 Congrats to that again. 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:45.980 That's super cool. 00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:47.220 David Lord, welcome. 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:47.880 Welcome back. 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:48.260 Yeah. 00:05:48.460 --> 00:05:48.580 Hello. 00:05:49.080 --> 00:05:49.640 I'm David Lord. 00:05:49.960 --> 00:05:54.820 I'm the lead maintainer of Pallets, which is Flask, Jinja, Click, Berkswag. 00:05:55.020 --> 00:05:56.020 It's dangerous, markup safe. 00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:02.540 And now Pallets Eco, which is a bunch of the famous extensions for Flask that are getting 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:03.720 community maintenance now. 00:06:04.100 --> 00:06:08.200 I've been doing that since, I think I've been the lead maintainer since like 2019, but a 00:06:08.400 --> 00:06:09.460 maintainer since like 2017. 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:10.560 So it's been a while. 00:06:10.660 --> 00:06:11.380 That's been a while. 00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:13.860 We're coming up on seven, eight years. 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:14.520 That's crazy. 00:06:15.200 --> 00:06:15.540 Time flies. 00:06:15.580 --> 00:06:18.280 It's always funny because I always feel like I've been doing it for way, way longer. 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.340 And then I look at the actual date that I got added as a maintainer. 00:06:21.340 --> 00:06:22.660 I'm like, well, it couldn't have been that late. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:23.860 I was doing stuff before that, right? 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:27.720 Well, I'm sure you were deep in flask before you got added as a maintainer of it, right? 00:06:28.140 --> 00:06:28.200 Yeah. 00:06:28.320 --> 00:06:31.780 Phil Jones, since you are also on the same org, next. 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:32.900 Hey, welcome back. 00:06:32.980 --> 00:06:33.080 Hello. 00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:34.500 Yeah, I'm Phil Jones. 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:37.760 I am the author of Quartz, which is also part of Palette. 00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:41.800 I also work on Berkshagen and Flask and help out there. 00:06:42.220 --> 00:06:44.660 And I've done a server called Hypercorn as well. 00:06:44.820 --> 00:06:47.680 So a bit of interest in that part of the ecosystem. 00:06:47.860 --> 00:06:49.300 What is Quart for people who don't know? 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:52.840 Quart is basically Flask with async await. 00:06:53.340 --> 00:06:56.880 And that was the idea behind it really to make it possible to do async await. 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:58.800 So yeah, that's pretty much it. 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:00.820 If we, when we manage to merge them, we will. 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:07.240 And the goal now with Quart as part of palettes is to eventually have it be one code base with Flask. 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:11.760 But given that we both have small children now, we're moving a lot slower. 00:07:13.060 --> 00:07:13.900 Having kids is great. 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:14.820 I have three kids. 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.920 Productivity is not a thing that they are known to imbue on the parents, right? 00:07:20.060 --> 00:07:21.320 Especially in the early days. 00:07:21.780 --> 00:07:23.080 I want to say, Phil, thank you. 00:07:23.200 --> 00:07:26.820 I've been running Quart for a couple of my websites lately, and it's been amazing. 00:07:26.980 --> 00:07:27.260 Nice. 00:07:27.580 --> 00:07:29.080 Yeah, I also use it at work. 00:07:29.200 --> 00:07:31.840 We've got all our stuff in Quart, which is, yeah, it's really good fun. 00:07:31.960 --> 00:07:32.660 A bit like Carlton. 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:39.240 So when people, if they get, if they listen to the show or they go to the website of the show and they're not on YouTube, then that somehow involves court. 00:07:39.640 --> 00:07:40.160 Janek, welcome. 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:40.700 Hey. 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:42.300 Yeah, I'm Janek de Vietni. 00:07:42.400 --> 00:07:44.260 I work on Litestar. 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.300 I just looked up how long it's been because I was curious myself. 00:07:48.020 --> 00:07:52.780 I also had the same feeling that it's been a lot longer than, it's actually only been three years. 00:07:53.380 --> 00:07:53.460 Yeah. 00:07:53.820 --> 00:07:57.060 And I also, I noticed something with all you guys here in the room. 00:07:57.200 --> 00:08:00.580 I use almost all of the projects you maintain at work, 00:08:01.960 --> 00:08:04.360 which is quite nice. 00:08:04.420 --> 00:08:06.660 We have a very big Django deployment. 00:08:06.840 --> 00:08:08.180 We have some Flask deployments. 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:09.760 We have a few FastAPI deployments. 00:08:10.100 --> 00:08:12.360 I think we have one core deployment 00:08:12.700 --> 00:08:14.560 and we also have two Light Store deployments, 00:08:15.280 --> 00:08:17.620 which obviously is a lot of fun to work with. 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.420 And I find it really, really nice actually 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.240 to work with all these different things. 00:08:23.400 --> 00:08:26.039 It's super interesting also because like everything 00:08:26.060 --> 00:08:29.540 has its own niche that it's really good at. 00:08:29.760 --> 00:08:31.600 And even, you know, you think 00:08:31.910 --> 00:08:33.260 if you maintain a framework yourself, 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:36.099 you tend to always recommend it for everything. 00:08:36.440 --> 00:08:38.440 But I noticed it's not actually true. 00:08:38.640 --> 00:08:40.360 There's actually quite a few cases 00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:42.479 where I don't recommend Litestar. 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:44.480 I recommend, you know, just, you know, 00:08:44.680 --> 00:08:46.740 use Django for this or, you know, 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.340 use Flask for that or use FastAPI for this 00:08:49.430 --> 00:08:52.200 because, well, they are quite different after all. 00:08:52.340 --> 00:08:54.999 And I find that really, really interesting 00:08:55.020 --> 00:09:00.480 and nice. And I think it's a good sign of a healthy ecosystem if it's not just, you know, 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:04.560 the same thing, but different, but it actually brings something very unique and different to 00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:08.760 the table. I think that's a great attitude. And it's very interesting. You know, I feel like 00:09:08.880 --> 00:09:13.280 there's a lot of people who feel like they've kind of got to pick their tech team for everything. 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:17.260 I'm going to build a static site. Like, well, I've got to have a Python-based static site builder. 00:09:17.300 --> 00:09:21.220 Like, well, it's a static site. Who cares what technology makes it turn? You're writing Markdown, 00:09:21.260 --> 00:09:22.080 and out comes HTML. 00:09:22.350 --> 00:09:24.000 Who cares what's in the middle, for example, right? 00:09:24.540 --> 00:09:27.600 And, you know, I feel like that's kind of a life lessons learned. 00:09:28.060 --> 00:09:28.980 Absolutely, yeah. 00:09:29.140 --> 00:09:29.760 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:09:30.290 --> 00:09:31.140 Cody, hello, hello. 00:09:31.340 --> 00:09:32.780 Yeah, hey guys, I'm Cody Fincher. 00:09:32.900 --> 00:09:34.560 I'm also one of the maintainers of Litestar. 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:37.400 I've been there just a little bit longer than Yannick. 00:09:37.940 --> 00:09:39.700 And so it's been about four years now. 00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:41.880 And Yannick actually teed this up perfectly 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:43.380 because I was going to say something very similar. 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:44.820 I currently work for Google. 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:46.460 I've been there for about three and a half years now. 00:09:46.760 --> 00:09:49.240 And we literally have every one of the frameworks 00:09:49.370 --> 00:09:50.220 you guys just mentioned, 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:51.240 and they're all in production. 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.080 And so one of the things that you'll see 00:09:54.380 --> 00:09:56.420 on the Litestar org and part of the projects 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:59.040 that we maintain are that we have these optional batteries 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.060 and most of the batteries that we have 00:10:01.260 --> 00:10:03.120 all work with the frameworks for you guys. 00:10:03.220 --> 00:10:05.800 And so it's nice to be able to use that stuff, 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:08.580 you know, regardless of what tooling you've got 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:10.120 or what project it is. 00:10:10.180 --> 00:10:12.140 And so, yeah, having that interoperability 00:10:12.400 --> 00:10:14.120 and the ability to kind of go between the frameworks 00:10:14.380 --> 00:10:16.800 that work the best for the right situation is crucial. 00:10:16.920 --> 00:10:18.500 And so I'm glad you mentioned that, Yannick. 00:10:18.520 --> 00:10:20.200 But yeah, nice to see you guys 00:10:20.220 --> 00:10:25.140 on the show. Cody, tell people what Litestar is. I know I had both you guys and Jacob on a while 00:10:25.260 --> 00:10:29.900 ago, but it's been a couple of years, I think. Litestar at its core is really a web framework 00:10:30.010 --> 00:10:36.260 that kind of sits somewhere in between, I'd say, Flask and FastAPI and Django. So whereas, you know, 00:10:36.300 --> 00:10:41.040 Flask doesn't really, you know, bundle a lot of batteries. There's a huge amount of, you know, 00:10:41.180 --> 00:10:44.540 third-party libraries and ecosystem that's built around it that people can add into it, but there's 00:10:44.560 --> 00:10:50.000 not really like, for instance, a database adapter or a database plugin or plugins for 00:10:50.180 --> 00:10:54.100 VEAT or something like that, right, for front end development. And so what we have been doing 00:10:54.130 --> 00:10:59.820 is building a API framework that is very similar in concept to FastAPI that is also extensible. 00:10:59.930 --> 00:11:03.280 So if you want to use the batteries, they're there for you. But if you don't want to use 00:11:03.380 --> 00:11:07.560 them, you don't have to, right? And so a lot of the tooling that we built for LightStore 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:12.920 was birthed out of a startup that I was in prior to joining Google. And so having all 00:11:12.940 --> 00:11:15.160 this boilerplate, really, it needed somewhere to go. 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:17.620 And so a lot of this stuff ended up being plugins, 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:19.800 which is what we bundled into Litestar 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:22.460 so that you can kind of add in this extra functionality. 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:24.360 And so I know I'm getting long-winded. 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:27.340 It's somewhere between Django and Flask, 00:11:27.400 --> 00:11:29.280 if you were to think about it in terms of a spectrum, 00:11:29.340 --> 00:11:32.520 in terms of what it gives you in terms of a web framework. 00:11:32.820 --> 00:11:34.960 But in short, it does everything that all the other guys do. 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.520 Very neat. It's definitely a framework I admire. 00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:39.760 Jeff Triplett, so glad you could make it. 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:40.720 Yeah, thanks for having me. 00:11:40.860 --> 00:11:42.560 Yeah, I'm Jeff Triplett. I'm out of Lawrence, Kansas. 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:45.100 I'm a consultant at a company called Revolution Systems. 00:11:45.550 --> 00:11:48.320 I was on, some people know me from being on the Python Software Foundation board. 00:11:48.680 --> 00:11:49.920 I've been off that for a few years. 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.880 As of last week, I'm the president of the Django Software Foundation. 00:11:53.290 --> 00:11:54.620 So I've been on that board for a year. 00:11:54.860 --> 00:11:56.620 I'm kind of a Django power user, I guess. 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:57.900 I've used it for about 20 years. 00:11:58.420 --> 00:12:02.040 And I've kind of not really worked on, I don't even think I have a patch anymore in Django. 00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:04.280 But I've done a lot with the community. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:08.660 I've done a lot with contributing through conferences and using utilities. 00:12:09.260 --> 00:12:12.180 I try to promote Carleton's applications like Neapolitan. 00:12:12.260 --> 00:12:15.780 And if I like tools, Python tools in general, I try to advocate for it. 00:12:16.040 --> 00:12:18.620 I've also used all of these applications. 00:12:18.900 --> 00:12:21.020 Litestar, I haven't, but I have a friend who talks about it a lot. 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:22.860 And so I feel like I know a lot from it. 00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:25.440 As a consultant, we tend to go with the best tool for the job. 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.840 So I've done a little bit of FastAPI. 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:31.020 I worked with Flask a lot over the years, even though we're primarily a Django shop. 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:32.500 It just depends on what the client needs. 00:12:32.580 --> 00:12:35.940 And you see a lot of different sizes of web app deployments. 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:38.140 So I think that's going to be an interesting angle for sure. 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:38.860 Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:39.220 --> 00:12:41.560 Small ones to hundreds of servers. 00:12:42.100 --> 00:12:46.400 We don't see it as much anymore the last four or five years, especially with like CDNs and caching. 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:49.720 We just don't see load like we did, you know, 10 years ago or so. 00:12:50.060 --> 00:12:55.160 And then I also do a lot of like small, I kind of call them some of them little dumb projects, but some are just fun. 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:59.800 Like I've got a FastAPI web ring that I wrote a year ago for April Fool's Day. 00:13:00.100 --> 00:13:03.440 And for some reason that kind of took off and people liked it, even though it was kind of a joke. 00:13:03.780 --> 00:13:07.620 So I started like peppering it on a bunch of sites and I maintain like Django packages. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.020 I do a newsletter, Django News newsletter, just kind of lots of fun stuff. 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.360 Definitely looking forward to hearing all of your opinions. 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.460 So I've got a bunch of different your app in production topics 00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:20.560 I thought we could just work around or talk over. 00:13:20.900 --> 00:13:24.180 So I thought maybe the first one is what would you recommend, 00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:26.340 or if you don't really have a strong recommendation, 00:13:26.620 --> 00:13:31.900 what would you choose for yourself to put your app in your framework in production? 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:35.820 I'm thinking app servers, reverse proxies like Nginx or Caddy. 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:37.320 Do you go for threaded? 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:39.180 Try to scale out with threads. 00:13:39.340 --> 00:13:44.820 you try to scale out with processes, Docker, no Docker, Kubernetes. What are we doing here, 00:13:44.940 --> 00:13:49.560 folks? Carlton. I think we'll just keep going around the circle here. So you may get the first 00:13:49.880 --> 00:13:52.280 round of everyone. No, I'll try to mix it up, but let's do it this time. 00:13:52.360 --> 00:14:00.020 I do the oldest school thing in the book. I run Nginx as my front end. I'll stick a 00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:05.839 WSGI server behind it with a pre-fork, a few workers, depending on CPU size, depending on 00:14:05.860 --> 00:14:10.900 the kind of requests I'm handling. These days, in order to handle long-lived requests, 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.860 like server-sent events, that kind of, or WebSocket type things, I'll run an ASGII server as a kind 00:14:14.860 --> 00:14:18.040 of sidecar. I've been thinking about this a lot, actually. But yeah, this is interesting. 00:14:18.280 --> 00:14:22.120 If you're running a small site and you want long-lived requests, just run ASGII. Just use 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:29.360 ASGII. Because any of the servers, Hypercorn, Uvacorn, Daphne, Grannion is the new hot kid on 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:34.279 the bot, right? All of those will handle your traffic, no problem. But for me, the scaling 00:14:34.300 --> 00:14:39.720 paddles and whiskey are so well known and just like i can do the maths on the back of the pencil i know 00:14:39.900 --> 00:14:45.740 exactly how to scale it up having done it for so long for me for my core application i would still 00:14:45.880 --> 00:14:51.080 rather use the whiskey server and then limit the async stuff to just to the use cases where it's 00:14:51.180 --> 00:14:58.040 particularly suited so i'll do that um process manager i deploy using systemd if i want to if i 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:03.719 want a container i'll use podman by systemd it's as old school as it gets i'll very often run a 00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:05.740 a Redis instance on localhost for caching, 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:07.780 and that will be it. 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:09.300 And that will get me an awful long way. 00:15:09.340 --> 00:15:10.020 If I have to schedule, 00:15:10.880 --> 00:15:11.940 I just get a bigger box. 00:15:12.260 --> 00:15:12.960 And a bigger box. 00:15:13.020 --> 00:15:13.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:15:13.560 --> 00:15:16.040 I really, really, really need multiple boxes. 00:15:16.260 --> 00:15:16.720 Well, then we'll talk. 00:15:16.820 --> 00:15:18.400 I feel like you and I are in a similar vibe. 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.680 But one thing I want to sort of throw out there to you, 00:15:20.760 --> 00:15:22.360 but also sort of the others is, 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:23.780 what are we talking with databases? 00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:26.460 Like, who is bold enough to go SQLite? 00:15:26.740 --> 00:15:28.100 Anyone's going SQLite out there? 00:15:28.900 --> 00:15:30.020 Yeah, it depends, right? 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:31.580 It just depends on what you're doing, right? 00:15:31.580 --> 00:15:33.460 And how many concurrent users you're going to have. 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:34.640 It really is amazing there. 00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:36.860 The Palette's website is running on Flask, 00:15:37.160 --> 00:15:38.080 which I wasn't doing for a while. 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:39.400 I was doing a static site generator. 00:15:39.770 --> 00:15:43.340 Then I got inspired by Andrew Godwin's static dynamic sites. 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.520 And so it loads up all these markdown files, 00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:49.900 static markdown files into a SQLite database at runtime 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:51.720 and then serves off of that 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:52.920 because you can query really fast. 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:54.160 Oh, that's awesome. I love it. 00:15:54.260 --> 00:15:56.140 So I am using SQLite for the Palette's website. 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.220 Yeah, I also do have a few small apps that use SQLite. 00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:02.980 And one recently that's Cody's fault 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.580 because he put me on that track 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:08.740 where it's running a SQLite database in the browser 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.300 because nowadays it's quite easy to do that. 00:16:12.860 --> 00:16:15.200 And then you can do all sorts of stuff with it, 00:16:15.300 --> 00:16:19.080 like hook into it with DuckDB and perform some analysis. 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:23.020 So you don't actually need to run any sort of server at all. 00:16:23.060 --> 00:16:26.780 You can just throw some files into Nginx and serve your data. 00:16:26.980 --> 00:16:28.240 And as long as that's static, 00:16:28.300 --> 00:16:30.160 you have a super, super simple deployment. 00:16:30.680 --> 00:16:32.200 So yeah, definitely SQLite. 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:34.280 If you can, I like it. 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:35.000 I agree. 00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:35.460 It's interesting. 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:38.100 The database probably won't go down with that, probably. 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:40.020 Let's do this by framework. 00:16:40.180 --> 00:16:42.340 So we'll do vertical slices in the visual here. 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:43.140 So Jeff. 00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:46.000 Yeah, Django, Postgres, pretty old school stack. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:49.120 I think putting a CD in front of anything is just a win. 00:16:49.210 --> 00:16:51.000 So whether you like Fastly or Cloudflare, 00:16:51.150 --> 00:16:52.380 you get a lot of mileage out of it. 00:16:52.660 --> 00:16:53.760 You learn a lot about caching 00:16:53.920 --> 00:16:55.880 because it's kind of hard to cache Django by default. 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:57.200 So you get to play with curl 00:16:57.430 --> 00:16:59.260 and kind of figure out why very headers are there. 00:16:59.670 --> 00:17:02.180 And it's a good learning experience to get through that. 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:06.600 I also like Coolify, which is kind of new, at least new to me and new to Michael. 00:17:06.689 --> 00:17:08.240 We talk about this in our spare time a lot. 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:11.800 It's just kind of a boring service that'll launch a bunch of containers for you. 00:17:12.280 --> 00:17:15.040 There's a bunch of one-click installs, so Postgres is a one-click. 00:17:15.270 --> 00:17:18.240 It also does backups for you, which is really nice to have for free. 00:17:18.520 --> 00:17:21.640 I run a couple dozen sites through it and really like it. 00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:26.140 You can either do a hosted forum, I don't get any money from it, or you can run the open-source version. 00:17:26.560 --> 00:17:27.140 I do both. 00:17:27.310 --> 00:17:30.500 I've got like a home lab that I just run stuff using the open-source version. 00:17:30.520 --> 00:17:32.860 And for five bucks a month, it's worth it to run a couple servers. 00:17:33.300 --> 00:17:35.400 And like Carlton said, you can just scale up. 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.080 Yeah, it's got a bunch of one-click deploy for self-hosted SaaS things as well. 00:17:40.260 --> 00:17:44.860 Like I want an analytics stack of containers that run in its own isolated bit. 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:45.960 Just click here and go. 00:17:46.280 --> 00:17:48.520 Yeah, one-click, it's installed and you're up. 00:17:48.740 --> 00:17:52.760 And then once you get one Django, Flask, FastAPI site working with it, 00:17:53.020 --> 00:17:54.440 and it uses like a Docker container. 00:17:54.780 --> 00:17:58.500 Once you get that set up, it's really easy to just kind of duplicate that site, 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.160 plug it in to GitHub or whatever your Git provider is. 00:18:01.260 --> 00:18:05.460 And it's a nice experience for what normally is just our syncing files 00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:06.860 and life's too short for that. 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.500 Sebastian, I want to have you go last on this one 00:18:09.500 --> 00:18:12.160 because I think you've got something pretty interesting 00:18:12.280 --> 00:18:14.260 with FastAPI Cloud to dive into. 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:16.520 But let's do Litestar next. Cody. 00:18:16.840 --> 00:18:19.580 I have actually bought all the way in on Gradient. 00:18:19.840 --> 00:18:22.420 So for the ASCII server, I've actually been running Gradient now 00:18:22.560 --> 00:18:24.060 for I'd say a year in production. 00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:25.660 It's worked pretty well. 00:18:26.180 --> 00:18:28.920 There's a couple of new things that I'm actually kind of 00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:31.460 with. I don't know how well they're going to work out. So I'm going to go ahead and throw this out 00:18:31.540 --> 00:18:37.900 there. But Granian is one of the few ASCII servers that supports HTTP2. And it actually can do HTTP2 00:18:38.040 --> 00:18:42.100 clear text. And so this is part of the next thing I'm going to say. Because I work for Google, I'm 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:47.440 actively using lots of Kubernetes and Cloud Run mainly. And so most of the things that I deploy 00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:52.860 are containerized on Cloud Run. And I typically would suggest if you're not using something like 00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:57.140 SystemD and deploying it directly on bare metal, then you are going to want to let the container 00:18:57.160 --> 00:18:59.740 or whatever you're using to manage your processes, 00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:01.640 manage that and spin that up. 00:19:01.670 --> 00:19:03.900 And so I typically try to allocate, 00:19:04.070 --> 00:19:05.780 you know, like one CPU for the container 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.660 and let the actual framework scale it up and down as needed. 00:19:09.080 --> 00:19:11.600 Cloud Run itself has a, like an ingress, 00:19:11.830 --> 00:19:13.320 like a load balancer that sits in front 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:14.480 that it automatically configures. 00:19:14.510 --> 00:19:16.980 And you're required to basically serve up 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.300 clear text traffic in when you run Cloud Run. 00:19:19.740 --> 00:19:22.580 And because now Gradient supports HTTP2 00:19:22.820 --> 00:19:25.340