WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.140 Today we explore the wild world of Python deployment with my friend Calvin Hendryx-Parker from 6 Feet Up. 00:00:05.760 --> 00:00:16.960 We'll tackle some of the biggest challenges in taking a Python app from "it works on my machine" to production, covering inconsistent environments, conflicting dependencies, and sneaky security pitfalls. 00:00:17.740 --> 00:00:25.760 Along the way, Calvin shares how containerization with Docker and Kubernetes can both simplify and complicate deployments, especially for smaller teams. 00:00:26.040 --> 00:00:34.980 Finally, we'll introduce Scaf, a powerful project blueprint designed to give developers a rock-solid start on Python web projects of all sizes. 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:42.040 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 496, recorded Tuesday, January 21st, 2025. 00:00:43.330 --> 00:00:45.240 Are you ready for your host, please? 00:00:45.790 --> 00:00:48.720 You're listening to Michael Kennedy on Talk Python To Me. 00:00:49.220 --> 00:00:52.560 Live from Portland, Oregon, and this segment was made with Python. 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.520 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python. 00:00:58.860 --> 00:01:00.700 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:13.960 Follow me on Mastodon, where I'm @mkennedy, and follow the podcast using @talkpython, both accounts over at fosstodon.org, and keep up with the show and listen to over nine years of episodes at talkpython.fm. 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:18.440 If you wanna be part of our live episodes, you can find the live streams over on YouTube. 00:01:18.860 --> 00:01:24.820 Subscribe to our YouTube channel over at talkpython.fm/youtube and get notified about upcoming shows. 00:01:25.480 --> 00:01:29.160 This episode is sponsored by Posit Connect from the makers of Shiny. 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.680 Publish, share, and deploy all of your data projects that you're creating using Python. 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:40.320 Streamlit, Dash, Shiny, Bokeh, FastAPI, Flask, Quarto, Reports, Dashboards, and APIs. 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:42.740 Posit Connect supports all of them. 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:48.380 Try Posit Connect for free by going to talkpython.fm/posit, P-O-S-I-T. 00:01:49.540 --> 00:01:52.600 And it's brought to you by my new book, Talk Python in Production. 00:01:53.120 --> 00:02:00.680 I've long felt that most guidance and marketing about how we need to run Python apps in production has been overly complex and expensive. 00:02:01.100 --> 00:02:07.280 This book is both a look at the history of Talk Python To Me and an antidote to this overly complex cloud world. 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:12.480 Read it online and get the full book at talkpython.fm/devopsbook. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.720 This episode has something unique and special. 00:02:17.430 --> 00:02:29.980 I thought it'd be fun if I could come up with a song that was about deploying code, about Kubernetes, about the cloud, all the different things that Calvin's gonna come on and tell us all about. 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.760 I turned that into a song and I stuck it at the end of the show. 00:02:33.880 --> 00:02:40.120 I wanted to put it at the beginning, but it's three minutes or so long and I think it might take away from getting right into the episode. 00:02:40.700 --> 00:02:44.840 So if you're interested in that, you can check out the song, it's called "Deploy the Dream". 00:02:45.040 --> 00:02:50.700 It's at the very end, almost the end, that lasts maybe another 45 seconds after that. 00:02:51.100 --> 00:02:58.080 And you'll find the link to the standalone song and MP3 file right on the episode page in the link section or in your podcast player show notes. 00:02:58.460 --> 00:02:59.140 I hope you love it. 00:02:59.200 --> 00:03:02.320 It was a lot of fun to create and I think it'll make a lot of you smile out there. 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:05.180 Quick announcement before we jump into the show. 00:03:05.780 --> 00:03:12.720 I recently completely re-imagined and rewrote the effective PyCharm course. 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:26.400 So if you wanna be effective with an IDE and use professional tools to build your Python applications, you should give my new and updated course, Effective PyCharm, a look. 00:03:27.040 --> 00:03:28.560 You'll find it at talkpython.fm. 00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:31.420 Just click on courses in the menu at the top. 00:03:31.700 --> 00:03:36.720 And if you were already in the prior version of the course, it's been automatically updated for you. 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:39.420 So you'll have access to the new course right away. 00:03:39.730 --> 00:03:40.780 Head on over and check it out. 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:46.660 And if you have one of our everything bundles that gives you access to all of our courses in the library. 00:03:47.160 --> 00:03:51.740 Well, you also have access to this course, assuming the original was in your bundle. 00:03:52.200 --> 00:03:54.720 Thanks to everyone who's taking courses over there and checking it out. 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:55.900 This is a really fun course. 00:03:56.010 --> 00:03:58.580 I think you'll get a ton out of it if you haven't taken it yet. 00:03:58.910 --> 00:04:00.560 And with that, let's jump into the show. 00:04:01.380 --> 00:04:03.420 Alvin, welcome to Talk Python To Me. 00:04:03.720 --> 00:04:05.460 Great to finally have you on the show. 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:06.880 What have you been doing all this time? 00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:09.060 - I don't know, not being on your show, I guess. 00:04:09.160 --> 00:04:17.100 I actually was super excited when you asked that I could be on here, This has been like a life goal, at least a goal since Talk Python To Me has ever existed. 00:04:17.269 --> 00:04:18.959 >> I really appreciate that. That's very kind. 00:04:19.239 --> 00:04:23.680 Well, it's great to have you on here and I am all about DevOps and deployment these days. 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:28.440 I think it's another superpower that I think people can really have. 00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:33.760 You've got an idea, you want to deploy the dream as the song that we'll play later, we'll say. 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:37.020 If you're not familiar with this stuff, it's a huge roadblock. 00:04:37.280 --> 00:04:41.120 I built this thing, but how do I get it up there and how can I keep it running? 00:04:41.980 --> 00:04:42.120 - Yeah. 00:04:42.440 --> 00:04:49.260 - And so what we're gonna talk about is a framework you all have created to make this much more automated and easy and packaged up, if you will. 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:49.860 - Yeah, I agree. 00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:58.440 I mean, part of the developer experience, not just the deployment story, but how do I make a developer be productive from day one? 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.680 Like I get super obsessed about the experience. 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:02.760 Like, is it smooth? 00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:03.480 Is it easy? 00:05:03.620 --> 00:05:07.180 Can developers like join your organization and be productive right away? 00:05:07.320 --> 00:05:11.020 Like that's important to me as a owner of a business who produces software. 00:05:11.900 --> 00:05:12.560 We'll start there. 00:05:13.400 --> 00:05:13.740 Who are you? 00:05:13.940 --> 00:05:14.420 What is your business? 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:14.980 What do you do? 00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:16.420 Set the stage for everyone. 00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:16.940 - All right. 00:05:17.400 --> 00:05:18.540 So my name's Calvin Hendryx-Parker. 00:05:18.780 --> 00:05:20.960 I am CTO and co-founder of Six Feet Up. 00:05:21.200 --> 00:05:30.140 We are a Python and AI for good software agency based out of the Midwest here in Indiana, but we have folks all across the country and a few folks across the globe. 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.200 We help impactful tech leaders level up their game. 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:39.780 Like if you've got an idea and you can see the future, our part of our goal is to make that happen. 00:05:39.940 --> 00:05:44.360 Like we love tackling the super hard software problems. 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.580 The harder the better and the more unique and the more impactful the better. 00:05:48.020 --> 00:05:55.340 Part of our goal has been to do 100 impactful projects by 2033 and those impactful projects are things that are making the world a better place. 00:05:55.900 --> 00:06:04.160 So some of our projects do actually impact climate or energy, done some stuff with NASA on space travel. 00:06:04.520 --> 00:06:08.840 So it's cool stuff like that that the people who work at Six Feet Up get super excited about. 00:06:09.020 --> 00:06:12.520 And like part of what drives me to do what we do every day for sure. 00:06:12.840 --> 00:06:12.940 Yeah. 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:14.500 And to get to work on space travels. 00:06:14.860 --> 00:06:15.220 Oh man. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:17.860 It's like, I'm getting up early today. 00:06:17.880 --> 00:06:18.360 I'm going to work on space travels. 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:19.220 It's literally rocket science. 00:06:19.340 --> 00:06:20.160 Literally rocket science. 00:06:20.460 --> 00:06:20.800 Yeah. 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:21.580 How amazing. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:23.540 And you've been doing Python for a long time. 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.880 You've been involved since the early days, right? 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:26.280 Yeah. 00:06:26.460 --> 00:06:30.200 I first adopted or touched Python in literally the year 2000. 00:06:30.620 --> 00:06:31.440 I started working on it. 00:06:31.660 --> 00:06:39.460 I was in a startup in the Bay Area and the guy sitting next to me was like, check out this Python based application server called Zope. 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:42.160 And at that point in time in my life, I had just graduated college. 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.340 I think I understood the three words in between all the other words that he just said. 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:49.040 And so that was a whole new world that got opened up to me. 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:55.140 And so I started out my journey in Python really with Zope as the kind of the first thing that got me in. 00:06:55.420 --> 00:07:00.720 But back in that day, like Zope and BitTorrent were kind of the killer apps for Python. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:06.640 Folks remember there were like Zope tracks at PyCon And my keynotes were like around Zope. 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:07.680 It was the thing. 00:07:07.720 --> 00:07:13.460 And I still attribute that community to really bringing me into Python and getting me engaged. 00:07:13.580 --> 00:07:19.000 It's some of the smartest people I've ever worked with who are part of that open source community who made that a thing. 00:07:19.000 --> 00:07:20.380 And I'm still friends with those people today. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:22.660 You know, people like Paul Everett and Trey Seaver. 00:07:22.940 --> 00:07:26.840 And those folks were really part of my upbringing into the Python community. 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:28.580 And I can't thank them enough. 00:07:28.820 --> 00:07:29.140 That's awesome. 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:29.440 You 00:07:29.440 --> 00:07:47.740 know, there's a really interesting fact that was shown at least amongst survey respondents in the PSF JetBrains survey, I can't pull out of it, that, that I would say 40% of the people who are doing Python these days are two years or less into it, which is an incredible statistic. 00:07:48.850 --> 00:07:51.480 I think 30%, 30% or so is this is their first year. 00:07:51.700 --> 00:07:53.700 And then, you know, the rest of the second year. 00:07:54.020 --> 00:07:57.860 So we're amongst the rare birds, but the reason I bring that up 25 00:07:57.860 --> 00:07:59.380 years later, we're still here doing it. 00:07:59.880 --> 00:08:00.120 Exactly. 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:05.920 the reason I bring that up is, you know, I suspect people who've been at this for three or four years, maybe don't know what ZOPE is. 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:10.560 They probably heard the word, but they're like, yeah, is that, is that like a thing that Django does? 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:13.140 Tell people what ZOPE is like. 00:08:13.880 --> 00:08:19.480 I mean, the application framework space back in the, in the 2000s was not a crowded space. 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:20.800 There weren't many options. 00:08:20.860 --> 00:08:24.220 And I think the beauty of what the app, the ZOPE was an application framework. 00:08:24.530 --> 00:08:26.300 It had some interesting opinions. 00:08:26.880 --> 00:08:36.260 One of them being the ZODB, which I still do love to this day, which is an object graph database that enabled you to build applications quickly. 00:08:36.479 --> 00:08:39.860 And I think initially one of their goals was through the web even. 00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:46.940 Like if you remember Z-classes, you could build and rapid prototype through the web in your browser. 00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:48.300 I mean, this is the year 2000. 00:08:48.940 --> 00:08:51.560 This is not last year where people were like, "Wow, cool. 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:54.840 This is a low-code thing." This was that 25 years ago. 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:55.900 >> This was ahead of its time. 00:08:55.940 --> 00:08:57.120 - He's way ahead of his time. 00:08:57.340 --> 00:08:59.900 Now, granted, I don't think that was not the future. 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:00.880 That shouldn't be the future. 00:09:01.140 --> 00:09:06.400 I'm actually hoping to give some conference talks this year about low code, no code, in my opinions on that. 00:09:06.880 --> 00:09:09.940 Especially, I should frame it in my context of Zope and Z-Classes. 00:09:10.900 --> 00:09:12.580 But maybe that's too much of an inside joke. 00:09:12.620 --> 00:09:16.040 I don't know if enough people would even understand what I'm talking about there. 00:09:16.760 --> 00:09:20.020 Because like you said, so many people are new to the community, which I think is awesome. 00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:22.800 I think that shows it's a vibrant, growing community. 00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:29.140 If you're in a community and you're wondering where the new next generation is gonna come from, there's a problem. 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:30.920 And I don't think Python has that problem. 00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:34.380 Python has an incredible traction with new people. 00:09:34.959 --> 00:09:36.800 And I've always loved it because of the simplicity. 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:40.460 I love it because the language is predictable in its patterns. 00:09:41.880 --> 00:09:48.400 It's not a cognitive overhead to remember all the various ways to call things in Python 'cause typically they're pretty consistent. 00:09:48.760 --> 00:09:48.860 - Yeah, 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:50.660 but Python's slow, we can't use it for stuff. 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:51.800 (laughing) 00:09:52.300 --> 00:09:54.020 I do not believe that for a second. 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:54.460 - No. 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:03.940 If you're doing maybe mathematical simulations or certain types of really, really intense low level things maybe, but as a general application framework, it applies, it's fine. 00:10:04.190 --> 00:10:04.300 Yeah. 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:19.400 And that's the problem too is that if you go off right now and you ask your ChatGPT or your cloud about like, you know, maybe what are some disadvantages of Python, it's going to mention these kind of broad old opinions about it because it only knows the average of all the knowledge has ever been on the internet. 00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:20.860 And it's learned 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:22.600 a bunch of like trash talk as well. 00:10:23.340 --> 00:10:25.140 and which is mostly inaccurate. 00:10:25.780 --> 00:10:27.560 But if you ask it to dig deeper, and 00:10:27.560 --> 00:10:28.440 someday 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.740 we'll be able to ask it I think a little more critically, you'll probably dig in and get the truth. 00:10:31.940 --> 00:10:32.940 - Yeah, a bit of a side note. 00:10:32.970 --> 00:10:37.080 I recently, for a couple things I needed, got the Chat GPT Pro. 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.680 Not the paid version, but the insane pro version. 00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:40.620 - Oh, the $200? 00:10:41.539 --> 00:10:43.340 - Yeah, $200 a month, and I laughed at myself. 00:10:43.460 --> 00:10:47.700 Like, this is the stupidest thing I've ever done, but I need it, so I'm gonna do it for a little few days, turn it off. 00:10:47.880 --> 00:10:49.100 It's incredible, I'm not turning it off. 00:10:49.380 --> 00:10:53.380 It's like my side buddy, I can ask anything. 00:10:53.760 --> 00:10:55.219 And it's so good. 00:10:56.420 --> 00:10:58.720 The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed. 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:08.180 - It's not evenly distributed because it's hard for most folks to have the right mindset, I think, to approach to get that level of value out of it. 00:11:08.400 --> 00:11:10.640 I think you have to know how to talk to it. 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:16.760 And I've said this before, it's the same problem with people who aren't good at using Google, just plain old search. 00:11:17.160 --> 00:11:24.200 Like, you know, the people who have to say, let me Google that for you, are the ones who understand how to like, use the search engine, you know, well. 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:25.460 Some people-- - You know, 00:11:25.540 --> 00:11:27.700 that can be answered in an exact phrase if you 00:11:27.700 --> 00:11:29.980 just say the phrase, just say the 00:11:29.980 --> 00:11:31.040 phrase, you know what I mean, you know? 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.780 And it's also a mindset, right? 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:43.520 Like, I started thinking like, instead of this is a cost or something, like, this is like another employee that I can just give jobs and five minutes later, I'll come back and it's done pretty thorough research. 00:11:43.620 --> 00:11:44.200 You know, it's-- 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:47.900 - Yeah, especially with the new scheduling feature, where you can actually schedule tasks to happen. 00:11:48.160 --> 00:11:56.160 I'm getting kind of excited about, everyone's talking about agents, and I know this isn't the AI show we're here to talk about, but I think agents are interesting, but we're not there yet. 00:11:57.100 --> 00:12:01.340 They're about the level of maybe interns and what you would trust them to do for you. 00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:02.520 - Yeah, I totally agree. 00:12:02.640 --> 00:12:06.060 I'm a little worried about what all this stuff is gonna do to the industry 00:12:06.060 --> 00:12:06.460 in 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:07.140 a broad sense. 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:08.260 My main concern is 00:12:08.260 --> 00:12:08.640 I 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:15.140 think it'll sort of carve out that gap between early dev and senior dev, and it's gonna be harder for folks to cross that. 00:12:15.640 --> 00:12:15.660 but 00:12:15.660 --> 00:12:19.820 it's also an incredible technology and I think it's also silly to pretend it doesn't exist. 00:12:20.040 --> 00:12:25.200 So anyway, you're right, it's not the AI show, but boy is it, is it top of mind for a lot of us, right? 00:12:25.620 --> 00:12:26.340 - Yeah, for sure. 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.280 - Yeah, okay, so let's talk Python deployment. 00:12:30.760 --> 00:12:33.080 Talk some pitfalls, maybe a little bit of Docker. 00:12:33.660 --> 00:12:34.240 How's this? 00:12:34.560 --> 00:12:34.960 - It's a shame. 00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:37.200 - Why did you all attack this problem? 00:12:37.400 --> 00:12:41.580 And I guess setting the stages, where does this fit in your consulting story, right? 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:51.160 You must need to deliver these applications often in a way that people can continue to let keep them going on their own without you constantly going back. Yeah, there's a there's some pip updates. So we'll take care of that for you. 00:12:51.470 --> 00:13:13.240 Well, and that definitely reaches into the longer tale of the whole story. I think if you go back to the beginning of the story of deployment, a lot of us started out or a lot of us older ones, more seasoned veteran developer folks in a world where if you wanted to deploy your web application, you threw some PHP into a web root. And as long as you had modphp installed, the stuff ran. 00:13:13.520 --> 00:13:17.620 Like you didn't have to think about configuring ingress and egress routes. 00:13:17.900 --> 00:13:21.380 And it was, you know, databases just ran on the same server you were on. 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:22.720 So you just ran it on local host. 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.100 Like it's the world has changed when it comes to the deployment story. 00:13:26.290 --> 00:13:30.760 But it's because things have gotten more complex and sophisticated because they had to. 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.260 Like we had needs for more sophisticated authentication mechanism. 00:13:35.270 --> 00:13:37.680 We have needs for caching and delivery. 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:39.840 We have needs for time series data. 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:46.800 Like, because those opportunities opened up, more sophisticated software gets built, which means it's a little trickier to deploy. 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:57.720 - Well, looking back, and with your perspective of all this experience as well, and it's something I've seen, every time the technology gets easier to work with, you know, like that used to be 100 lines of code, now it's three. 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:03.240 You know, we're gonna be out of jobs soon, a lot of people would say, it's like, no, we're just gonna solve bigger, more ambitious problems. 00:14:04.140 --> 00:14:09.880 And that's been the case for so long, and it's not that, well, things got easier, so we're not gonna do it. 00:14:09.920 --> 00:14:16.980 No, every time it got easier, we were able to just think of bigger, more, instead of, we don't need a team, one person can solve this amazing problem. 00:14:17.280 --> 00:14:22.200 But that means, underneath that, there's this mountain, this iceberg of stuff going on, right? 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:34.040 - Well, and that's where deployment has gotten, I think, hard in a lot of people's minds, is because there is a mountain of knowledge, like there's a giant shoulders that you're standing on that makes that happen. 00:14:35.499 --> 00:14:42.360 And my VP of engineering was complaining to me yesterday, Like, why can't we just, how can we not easily put websites on the internet anymore? 00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:45.300 And it's not that we can't put websites on the internet anymore. 00:14:45.300 --> 00:14:46.860 They just do so much for us. 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:52.340 Like the complexity and the sophistication and the covers is what's causing a lot of this issue. 00:14:52.420 --> 00:15:01.620 And the person who wrote software is not always the person who deploys software because I think they've just got kind of different mindsets or different ways of thinking about the problems. 00:15:01.820 --> 00:15:09.400 And it's rare you find people who are truly a full stack and do front end to the back into the database, the network, all the layers that are in between. 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:15.840 And it's nice that services like, you know, the cloud have come about where it greatly simplifies that deployment. 00:15:16.020 --> 00:15:18.420 And that was part of our journey into containers. 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:30.100 I was resistant to containers probably until 2020 when we did, in 2020 there was a change, obviously, some things happened in the world, but we also 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:30.340 built... 00:15:30.340 --> 00:15:31.920 - You had more time to be at home and figure out stuff. 00:15:32.020 --> 00:15:32.400 - Right. 00:15:33.280 --> 00:15:40.740 But we also had time to build some software to help us in our little conference we were doing. We put on the Python web conference during the pandemic. 00:15:40.750 --> 00:16:31.700 We actually started the pre-pandemic, but during the pandemic, we took time to write some software to deploy a virtual event platform. And I think containers, at that point in time, I adopted containers and container orchestration because it allowed the developers to think more about developing and less about the deploying part of a sophisticated application like streaming web video, audio mixing, switching, live chats and web sockets. I mean, there's a whole lot of moving parts in something when you're delivering a live video conference experience. And the containers were a nice, like, equalizing layer to allow us to say, I don't care where it goes to, whether it's in Docker Compose or Kubernetes or Docker Swarm, or in our case, we used Amazon's Fargate, because I just didn't want to deal with infrastructure. I just told Fargate, I got some tasks here, some containers, make 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:33.900 them live, like turn them on. 00:16:34.210 --> 00:16:34.320 Yeah. 00:16:34.630 --> 00:16:36.940 And it sounds like that's for devs as well. 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:37.420 Yeah. 00:16:37.570 --> 00:16:44.280 And we do-- Not just the infrastructure you're pointing to, but this is, it sounds like you're smoothing the path for the whole team, right? 00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:44.720 Correct. 00:16:44.920 --> 00:16:48.260 That's an opinion I hold that containers are for development as well. 00:16:48.540 --> 00:17:12.939 Like that developer experience, some organizations I've seen, they may be deploying on the Kubernetes because there were operational opinions about deploying into containers, but the developers themselves haven't adopted that fully on their local workstation because it may feel hard until you've got that muscle built up for doing that level of development. That's originally, that's why Scaf came about, to make that development experience just a breeze. 00:17:14.300 --> 00:17:54.260 We focused on how quickly can a developer be productive locally using containers and still have all your tools. It shouldn't feel different than if you were developing with your local Django files on your local file system and you were just running a Postgres instance, you know, out of homebrew, except it's better because now the versions will match what's running in production and you can have five different projects running with five different versions of things because you want to make sure they match your expectations when they go to launch and not be surprised when, you know, the version of Redis doesn't support some new operator because you were one minor version off in your local machine compared to the sandbox and production machines. 00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:54.540 >> 00:17:54.540 --> 00:17:54.700 Yeah. 00:17:54.780 --> 00:18:00.060 I was not against containers, but I was resistant to use them myself because I felt 00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:09.080 like, well, here's another thing to understand, another thing that's a layer between me and my code, and it could go wrong and I don't need it. 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:11.260 You know what? I'm a believer. 00:18:11.460 --> 00:18:15.380 It is so nice to be able to just say, here's three commands you can run. 00:18:15.550 --> 00:18:16.000 >> Exactly. 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:17.220 >> Always going to be exactly. 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:23.880 Another thing that I've done is on my new Macs and stuff, my dev machines, I don't put databases on there. 00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:24.520 Nope. 00:18:24.800 --> 00:18:24.940 Caching. 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:32.060 I don't even necessarily install Python directly on, you know, as in go to python.org or homebrew or something like that. 00:18:32.260 --> 00:18:39.140 It's, if I want a tool and you know, instead of installing say MongoDB, I can just have a Docker command that runs MongoDB. 00:18:39.380 --> 00:18:40.400 That listens on the same port. 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:40.540 Yep. 00:18:40.860 --> 00:18:42.260 And it's, it's always up to date. 00:18:42.300 --> 00:18:43.520 And if I don't like it, I get rid of it. 00:18:43.600 --> 00:18:47.340 If I want to change the version of it, I just change the flag somewhere in a file. 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:49.020 And it's, it's incredible. 00:18:49.340 --> 00:18:49.900 That and uv. 00:18:50.180 --> 00:18:50.360 Yeah. 00:18:50.380 --> 00:18:52.020 Think back to the old, old days. 00:18:52.040 --> 00:19:00.900 and the old days for us, but probably the current state for a lot of people in certain organizations, is you had a large getting started document that you would have to follow top to bottom. 00:19:01.290 --> 00:19:12.700 You know, make sure you get this version of that, make sure you get that version of this, make sure you put these files there, make sure your database is running with these couple extra options because we've enabled some, and maybe we've enabled GIS or some extension to the database. 00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:21.240 If you didn't get all those magic incantations just right and follow the document to the letter, you were having, you know, a long time to get started. 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:22.440 like it was a struggle. 00:19:22.780 --> 00:19:34.940 Whereas you just tell someone Git pull and then we'll tilt up, in our case for Scaf, we've adopted the tilt management tool, they're running and they can start making, contributing code within an hour. 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:35.860 That's my goal. 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:41.600 My goal has always been fresh laptop out of the box, on my desk and be able to contribute like a pull request in an hour. 00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:45.900 - 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No, everything's in containers. 00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:48.900 That was, Scaf primarily, And some people will see Scaf as a deployment tool. 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.260 I see Scaf as a developer experience tool and a deployment tool. 00:21:52.430 --> 00:21:58.640 I covered both ends of that spectrum because everything starts obviously with the developer and an idea and some building some software. 00:21:59.060 --> 00:22:06.020 Well, if they can't build the software easily or they can't collaborate with another contributor on that software, it slows things down. 00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:13.540 So part of what we, you know, that Scaf tool is, it's gonna be able to give you the scaffolding to build out of an initial project. 00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:22.340 Like starting from scratch, you have nothing on the file system, Scaf will build out those initial tools, but then Scaf is a set of opinions, more importantly, because lots of scaffolding tools exist out there. 00:22:22.340 --> 00:22:31.380 I mean, current Scaf is built on Cookie Cutter, but we can move that, we can move those opinions as we change our opinions about the development world. 00:22:31.660 --> 00:22:39.080 So as we build a new project and let that get started, we now can develop locally on containers. 00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:42.900 Like we use Kind for our Kubernetes cluster locally, which is nice. 00:22:44.140 --> 00:22:48.600 and you'd think running Kubernetes might be overkill for a local development environment. 00:22:48.850 --> 00:22:54.240 But the nice part about that is, is like now the Kubernetes manifests, you know, layer nicely. 00:22:54.420 --> 00:23:07.060 You've got a local base layer, a local instance, you've got a sandbox instance or a development instance you may launch into the cloud someplace, or you've got your production layers all right in there using customized, for example. 00:23:07.660 --> 00:23:07.880 - Nice. 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:18.260 - Yeah, nice part about that is, if my machine doesn't have enough horsepower or memory or disk space to run a specific project that where I need to jump in and help, I can just run that in the cloud. 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.120 I don't, there's nothing saying I have to be running that locally on my own machine. 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:28.260 All the tooling, all the file synchronization will work just as well if it's running in a sidecar. 00:23:28.560 --> 00:23:39.500 Like if I had a big white box, Intel machine or machine sitting in my, under my desk, I can run that or I can just launch it into a digital ocean or an AWS cloud, doesn't matter. 00:23:39.780 --> 00:23:40.580 - Yeah, absolutely. 00:23:40.840 --> 00:23:43.460 So let's dive in, let's dive into Scaf. 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:50.000 But before we do, have you seen, I think it was in the last episode, this new AI computer thing that NVIDIA announced? 00:23:50.020 --> 00:23:51.360 - I'm pretty excited about that actually. 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:52.380 - I'm super excited. 00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:55.860 NVIDIA unveils a $3,000 desktop AI computer. 00:23:56.180 --> 00:23:59.840 And I think it's just, you kind of remote in and run containers on it as well, I'm pretty sure. 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:06.620 - Yeah, I was excited 'cause I felt like CES, this is obviously launched at CES by NVIDIA on stage. 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:10.980 And I was excited to see CES have something It was interesting for developers again. 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.120 I feel like CES had kind of gotten boring maybe over the last decade. 00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:16.380 And this was exciting. 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:17.440 I think 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:17.880 that... 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:19.100 It's got to be all doorbells and TVs. 00:24:19.360 --> 00:24:19.460 Yeah, 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:20.160 right. 00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:20.900 Exactly. 00:24:21.100 --> 00:24:23.280 I love home automation. 00:24:23.320 --> 00:24:23.980 Don't get me wrong. 00:24:24.300 --> 00:24:26.960 But there's only so much of that junk I could possibly be interested in. 00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:28.640 This is something I'm very interested in. 00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:29.180 Exactly. 00:24:29.540 --> 00:24:33.600 Well, Jamie out in the audience says, "Totally all in on developing with Guinness. 00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:36.900 Very few tools installed on my Mac, but we're here with you." 00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:37.160 Awesome. 00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:38.140 Yeah, the important tools. 00:24:38.140 --> 00:24:43.660 Like you've got your IDE, your VS Code, you've got your, you know, you've got your favorite Git visualization tool. 00:24:43.850 --> 00:24:47.820 Like, I mean, those, those are critical to your, your tool chain, your workflow and they should work everywhere. 00:24:48.030 --> 00:24:50.660 They should work just as work alike on every project you're on. 00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:52.000 Yeah, I agree. 00:24:52.180 --> 00:25:02.040 I don't develop containers, but I work with local virtual environments and then like basically try to replicate exactly the same, but all the surrounding stuff, all the daemons and the servers and all that. 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:07.860 It's all like, so we're at a slightly different stage of our container journey, I believe, We're both far down the path, I think. 00:25:07.970 --> 00:25:08.080 >> 00:25:08.080 --> 00:25:09.140 Much further than we used to be. 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:10.160 >> Certainly. 00:25:11.090 --> 00:25:11.200 [LAUGHTER] 00:25:12.560 --> 00:25:12.920 >> 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:13.020 All 00:25:13.020 --> 00:25:15.400 right. Here we are, six feet up slash Scaf on GitHub. 00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:15.900 >> Yep. 00:25:16.010 --> 00:25:22.280 >> Scaf provides developers and DevOps engineers with a complete blueprint for a new project using Kubernetes. 00:25:22.390 --> 00:25:26.600 We talked a lot about the motivation and so on, but let's start with the beginning. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.580 You said I have an idea for a project that wasn't well-structured. 00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:36.500 This is a little cookie cutter-ish in a sense, but what it makes is more than just a Python project, right? 00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:37.520 Tell us what we got here. 00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:48.080 - So this started out, if you've ever followed the Cookie Cutter project, there was a Cookie Cutter Django template out there made by Pi Danning. 00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:49.940 It kind of kicked that off and started it. 00:25:50.100 --> 00:25:55.360 I liked a lot of his opinions, but I wanted more to it, or I wanted to change some of them. 00:25:55.620 --> 00:25:58.660 So that was the original, like, kind of kernel of where this started. 00:25:59.100 --> 00:26:06.460 And then we grew a lot more around the deployment story and some of the developer tools so that we could be on Kubernetes. 00:26:06.530 --> 00:26:17.280 We could standardize on Kubernetes as a container platform, so we could launch into any cloud, whether it's a managed Kubernetes or whether you're bare metal and are running like VMs and EC2, or it doesn't matter. 00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:24.260 Because the nice part about Kubernetes is it gives you that agnostic interface to launch new containers. 00:26:25.020 --> 00:26:31.360 I think a lot of people see Kubernetes as complex and used for like container orchestration and scaling. 00:26:31.580 --> 00:26:37.860 But I see Kubernetes as a way, it's an interface, it's an API to allow us to deploy easily. 00:26:38.180 --> 00:26:41.780 So we wanted to focus on things like CI/CD, and could you make that simple? 00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:45.820 So SCAF includes opinions around Argo CD, for example. 00:26:46.060 --> 00:26:53.080 So when you deploy into Sandbox, it deploys the Argo CD operator, and then it sits and watches your repository for changes. 00:26:53.280 --> 00:26:59.500 So anytime you merge to Dev branch, for example, it will release to Sandbox, and then the QA team can go test. 00:26:59.860 --> 00:27:00.680 You don't have to think about it. 00:27:00.760 --> 00:27:05.260 Like you just make a PR, if it gets reviewed and accepted and merged, the release happens. 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:06.720 Like no one forgets to do the release. 00:27:07.080 --> 00:27:08.760 No one has to do manual steps to do the release. 00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:20.000 Long gone are the days of shelling into a box and doing a Git pull or SPN up in a directory and forgetting to restart some service to pick up those changes. 00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:22.160 Because humans, we're humans. 00:27:22.380 --> 00:27:28.300 We're terrible about repeatability and maintaining and being able to do maintenance type tasks like that. 00:27:28.560 --> 00:27:29.400 We're just not built for it. 00:27:29.520 --> 00:27:30.920 We're built for creative type thinking. 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:37.460 We should let the computers do the bits are good at, which I feel like that's what some of these opinions are based around is can we automate those pieces away? 00:27:37.760 --> 00:27:37.880 Right. 00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:39.520 It's like a deployment checkbox. 00:27:39.820 --> 00:27:40.100 Oh yeah. 00:27:40.220 --> 00:27:40.440 Checklist 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:41.480 and like tech, tech, tech. 00:27:41.540 --> 00:27:42.200 Have we installed this? 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:43.700 Do you set this version exactly? 00:27:43.940 --> 00:27:44.220 Yeah. 00:27:44.540 --> 00:27:44.700 Yeah. 00:27:45.040 --> 00:27:45.200 Yeah. 00:27:45.520 --> 00:27:47.100 And some, some humans are good at checklists. 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.100 Like there's people who are, that is their thing. 00:27:49.260 --> 00:27:50.680 Like, you know, doctors and surgery. 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:51.680 Don't take their checks from them. 00:27:51.700 --> 00:27:51.860 Right. 00:27:52.020 --> 00:27:54.580 Like they love their checklists and glad they've got them. 00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:02.780 I feel like people who have gravitated towards software development are craftsmen, kind of artisans around a craft. 00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:08.860 And it's not so much about checking check boxes as it is how do they creatively solve a problem because a lot of the problems they're solving haven't existed. 00:28:09.060 --> 00:28:11.020 If they existed already, they would be solved. 00:28:11.120 --> 00:28:12.880 And what would be the point of us writing any software? 00:28:13.300 --> 00:28:13.360 Yeah. 00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:14.400 And that's why we have that. 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.240 It works on my machine. 00:28:15.260 --> 00:28:15.800 Yeah, totally. 00:28:16.060 --> 00:28:16.880 Program because 00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:18.780 we 00:28:18.780 --> 00:28:24.160 don't check the boxes and we're not amazing at making everything work the same, but yeah. 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:24.880 And 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:29.680 this is my goal is the getting rid of the works on my machine. 00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:31.680 Like it should work everywhere the same, exactly the same. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.440 And you should be able to use your own machine for development. 00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:44.240 Like a lot of I've seen a lot of teams where they have this big central server that's called dev and that's where they all shell into and work simultaneously on a single spot. 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:49.460 And that just feels fraught with errors and terror to me. 00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:49.760 Yeah. 00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:53.780 You know what it feels like it screams to me is you might end up It doesn't work on my machine. 00:28:53.810 --> 00:28:55.120 It only works on that machine. 00:28:55.510 --> 00:28:55.620 Exactly. 00:28:56.200 --> 00:28:56.660 Even worse. 00:28:56.670 --> 00:28:57.140 It only works. 00:28:57.300 --> 00:29:09.340 I once worked on a research project with a pretty big funding organization and there was a bunch of different contractors, one of them out of Seattle, and we all had to build some pretty complex software team. 00:29:09.380 --> 00:29:12.300 I was on, we built something that kind of coordinated all of them and it was fine. 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:13.380 Worked great. 00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:13.980 We were all happy. 00:29:14.030 --> 00:29:22.580 The other people will deliver, but there was this one team that had built something on a big, big Linux server and big fat desktop thing. 00:29:22.800 --> 00:29:23.880 Why do I know the size of it? 00:29:24.220 --> 00:29:32.460 Because they had worked on it for nine months and then they tried to get it to run on another, they literally could not get it to run on any other computer. 00:29:32.820 --> 00:29:45.200 And so they put it into the most fragile, or most careful shipping container they could and they drove it from Seattle to San Diego and they set it up in the corner 'cause they literally couldn't get the software they wrote to run on any other system. 00:29:45.500 --> 00:29:46.140 Could you imagine? 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:48.280 Like, what are you going to do in the next time around? 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:49.140 What if it breaks? 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:49.960 - Right. 00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:52.680 - Yeah, that, that, I'm working on a big central server. 00:29:52.760 --> 00:30:01.380 Maybe there's a way to like restore it and stuff, but you could, you could craft your software into a corner on that big server where it's like, well, we're going to move to the cloud. 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.500 Like, no, we're going to keep it on that thing and it better just be enough, you know? 00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:04.900 - Right. 00:30:05.140 --> 00:30:07.340 And how do you onboard someone new to help you? 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:09.460 Like, you gotta be like, well, be very, very careful. 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:11.560 There's this one, only one server where it only runs. 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.280 - Oh my goodness. 00:30:12.620 --> 00:30:13.820 Could you, could you not? 00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:15.080 - Onboarding is such a challenge there. 00:30:15.400 --> 00:30:15.540 - Yeah. 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:29.620 You want to be able to onboard developers like with confidence and they can have the confidence to know that they can make mistakes and they can burn things to the ground and they can try stuff knowing that it's not going to affect like the production machine or even the sandbox machine. 00:30:29.650 --> 00:30:34.420 Like they can experiment with a little bit of reckless abandon because that's how you learn. 00:30:34.620 --> 00:30:35.520 Like you break things. 00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:37.240 In my mind, you break things to learn. 00:30:37.380 --> 00:30:39.560 There's a lot of learning that happens when you get to break things. 00:30:39.610 --> 00:30:46.140 And if you can break things confidently knowing that no big deal, I can just get full or put a branch and delete that branch and start over. 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:51.540 >> 100 percent. And there's different, there's different layers at which people should embrace that to the maximum. 00:30:51.940 --> 00:30:55.740 They should embrace that in refactoring, reorganizing, right? 00:30:55.880 --> 00:31:00.460 So if I have, if I have Git and I have frequent check-ins, I should be able to go crazy. 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:07.100 You shouldn't be like, "Oh, don't mess with that." You should be able to go crazy on your code and go, "Oh my gosh, it's better." Or, "That was a horrible idea." Revert. 00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:09.120 >> Get rid of that. 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:10.280 >> 00:31:10.280 --> 00:31:12.260 And it should not, it should not be terror. 00:31:12.340 --> 00:31:14.060 It should be like, "Oh, let's give that a try. 00:31:14.120 --> 00:31:14.980 I bet that would be awesome. 00:31:15.100 --> 00:31:16.360 And if it's not, we're going to get out. 00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:21.560 Also though, on the containers give you that for your infrastructure locally and in the cloud. 00:31:21.870 --> 00:31:24.360 What if we ran on the newest version of Postgres? 00:31:24.610 --> 00:31:24.740 Yep. 00:31:24.980 --> 00:31:25.320 Let's try it. 00:31:25.320 --> 00:31:25.420 Is that 00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:26.740 amazing or is it a horrible idea? 00:31:26.860 --> 00:31:29.520 Like, you've got the one server that everyone's using. 00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:31.500 You're definitely, or even the QA server. 00:31:31.600 --> 00:31:39.980 You're like, we're not going to break everyone because there's 10 people who are going to lose their productivity if we screw this up, but I can change a number in a Docker file and try it. 00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:53.600 And I've seen this in action, again, in production, in action, in we have with our own customer stuff where a junior, you know, admin, sysadmin was doing some standard maintenance activity, you know, maybe they accidentally dropped the database. 00:31:53.960 --> 00:32:00.080 But if you have all the things lined up and all the infrastructure, you know, set up in this kind of optimal way, no big deal. 00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:01.580 It's like, no problem. 00:32:01.800 --> 00:32:04.680 Like you go push, you go run the command that like restores the DB. 00:32:04.990 --> 00:32:07.860 Like for example, one of our opinions in here is a cloud native PG. 00:32:08.300 --> 00:32:08.840 So you have options. 00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:15.580 Like we can use cloud native PG in the cluster and that does things like point time restore, recovery, you can be using RDS. 00:32:16.399 --> 00:32:28.480 Those opinions can happen afterwards, but given that the whole thing can be blown away and redeployed in a moment, in literally a moment's notice, gives you a lot of confidence in being able to bring something back from a destructive action. 00:32:28.760 --> 00:32:28.920 - Yeah, 00:32:29.120 --> 00:32:29.400 absolutely. 00:32:29.860 --> 00:32:29.920 I 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:30.060 think 00:32:30.060 --> 00:32:32.720 we're both so excited about this, we keep getting on tangents. 00:32:33.100 --> 00:32:35.680 I originally would have asked you kind of, how do I get started with this? 00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:36.700 Like, talk us through. 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:37.420 (laughing) 00:32:37.420 --> 00:32:37.980 Talk us through, 00:32:38.140 --> 00:32:40.560 like I'm a-- - Oh, you'd like to try it? 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:41.360 (laughing) 00:32:41.780 --> 00:32:46.420 They give people a sense of like, if they, if they don't, obviously most people don't have this already. 00:32:46.520 --> 00:32:48.220 Like what are they, they want a new project. 00:32:48.580 --> 00:32:51.060 They want it to have this more forward looking. 00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:51.520 Yep. 00:32:51.800 --> 00:32:53.960 So on that structure, yeah. 00:32:54.140 --> 00:32:58.180 On that GitHub page, there's a one-liner you can just copy paste into your terminal. 00:32:58.600 --> 00:33:00.080 I think it's toward the, yeah, it is right there. 00:33:00.360 --> 00:33:00.440 Yeah. 00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:01.060 There's a little, I 00:33:01.060 --> 00:33:03.420 applaud you for not having the dollar at the beginning. 00:33:03.540 --> 00:33:03.880 Thank you. 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:05.740 I'm 00:33:05.740 --> 00:33:06.880 dollar fan, not a fan. 00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:07.500 I'm pragmatic about this. 00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:07.680 Yeah. 00:33:07.940 --> 00:33:08.220 Yeah. 00:33:08.820 --> 00:33:12.040 And that one liner will install a lot of the opinions. 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:27.820 I've mentioned this before to some people that Scaf gives you all of those kind of cool opinions, cool tools, like neat techniques that as a developer, like it takes like decades to refine and hone and kind of gain into your toolbox. 00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:30.200 Scaf tries to give those to you like right away. 00:33:30.460 --> 00:34:10.600 Like, so it's, for example, it's going to install kubectl and kind and tilt and a couple of other tools if they're not found on your system and it'll use, if homebrew installed, it'll just use homebrew out of the box to do that and it puts it into your home directory. It doesn't, it shouldn't require, you know, one of my goals is not to require sudo anywhere in this process, you know, there's no sudo needed here for that curl command to run. And so it should be less impactful on your system than a lot of other tools, but it gives you a lot of power for what you are installing. So you run that one liner, it will now give you in like your dot local bin directory, a scaf CLI command that you'll be able to run. 00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:13.740 And you can just run scaf and then the name of the project you want to build. 00:34:14.060 --> 00:34:15.040 And it'll ask you some questions. 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:22.159 So this is the kind of cookie cutter part at that point, is that it's going to ask you, "Hey, do you want to build a Django app with Next.js running? 00:34:22.720 --> 00:34:26.580 And do you want to use Sentry? Do you want to have Celery?" Just some standard questions. 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:28.379 What mail provider are you going to use? 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:33.260 So it gives you then on your file system a new, in this case, a Django project. 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:37.620 I'll talk about some of the future vision pieces of that, but that's what it gives you today. 00:34:37.780 --> 00:34:50.320 It also gives you, in addition to a standard Django project, because you can get a Django project just by running the Django start project, a Django admin start project command, it would blow out a very simple version of a Django project. 00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:51.379 This has more to it. 00:34:51.520 --> 00:34:55.080 There's some opinions about users and sites and some other things. 00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:58.580 But not only that, there's going to be all the Kubernetes manifests for running locally. 00:34:58.820 --> 00:35:03.600 There's going to be Terraform in there for deploying into a sandbox cloud, like on Amazon, for example. 00:35:03.870 --> 00:35:10.540 So if you chose Amazon as your target cloud, There's going to be all these kind of other opinions in here. 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:16.920 What database we're using, what if we're using Celery, we're going to use Redis, actually we should change that. 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:21.540 We're changing from Redis over to Valkey at the moment as well. 00:35:21.750 --> 00:35:23.320 >> Valkey, what is this? 00:35:23.810 --> 00:35:26.480 >> So Valkey, V-A-L-K-E-Y. 00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:27.080 >> Close. 00:35:27.380 --> 00:35:29.340 >> Valkey, which is the Redis. 00:35:29.720 --> 00:35:30.040 >> Valkey, 00:35:30.280 --> 00:35:30.560 okay. 00:35:31.240 --> 00:35:32.220 >> The Redis for Blake's Code. 00:35:32.710 --> 00:35:33.160 >> Yeah. 00:35:33.510 --> 00:35:34.900 >> Okay. Why this? 00:35:35.140 --> 00:35:37.860 - Just because of licensing changes on the Reddit side of things. 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:44.480 I think that's another whole, we could do a whole other podcast on just open source licensing and interesting history. 00:35:44.710 --> 00:35:46.840 You know, the Elastic folks did this with ElasticCache. 00:35:47.180 --> 00:35:51.060 I think the Reddit folks kind of were following suit, but then you now-- - I think Mongo did 00:35:51.060 --> 00:35:52.600 maybe a little bit as well. 00:35:52.940 --> 00:35:53.020 - Well, 00:35:53.120 --> 00:35:58.800 now you've seen the Elastic folks kind of go back on that, heading back toward the more open open source licensing. 00:35:59.300 --> 00:35:59.580 We'll see. 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:10.660 - I'm sympathetic to, at least some of these, because they built these businesses and the cloud folks are just like, "Awesome, we'll host that for you, thanks." You're like, "Wait a minute, we were hoping to kind of "have some kind of deal." - Yeah, be that. 00:36:11.260 --> 00:36:12.400 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That'd be great for you. 00:36:12.700 --> 00:36:22.800 - I can also totally understand, "No, we just want this stuff unencumbered." - Yeah. - It's not that complicated, probably we could probably make this work, and we got together and teamed up, and okay, this is news to me, this is awesome. 00:36:23.080 --> 00:36:28.340 - Yeah, no, it's, again, it's drop-in replacement for the most current version of Redis. 00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:29.320 - I was actually 00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:34.520 just thinking about doing something with Redis, but I think I might just do a little Norse legend type of stuff. 00:36:35.680 --> 00:36:36.260 Try that out. 00:36:38.200 --> 00:36:47.020 This portion of the talk Python to me is brought to you by a very special project that I've been working hard on for some time, a new book, the talk Python in production book. 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:54.440 I've long felt that most guidance and marketing about how we need to run Python apps in production has been overly complex and expensive. 00:36:55.100 --> 00:37:16.620 I'm sure you've heard me espouse the ideas that you're not Google, you're not and you're not Netflix to emphasize that the legitimately incredible technology powering these companies can be admired but mostly shouldn't be used as a guide for your own applications and APIs. This book, "Talk Python in Production" is me pulling back the curtain and showing the world how this can be easily done. 00:37:17.160 --> 00:37:27.800 You'll see how and why various technology choices have led us to truly maintainable web apps that can be managed by a single developer, cost a tiny fraction of most cloud-based solutions 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:28.680 and 00:37:28.680 --> 00:38:21.140 result in a blazing fast web app built on modern Python. You might be wondering if you need to be an expert in Docker or Linux to benefit from this book. You don't. While having some exposure to Docker or Linux servers helps, the book walks through setting up and managing a modern Docker-based deployment from scratch. Think of it as a guided tour of these technologies with best practices and pitfalls explained along the way. When deploying to the cloud, you often hear that you should just use serverless or other no-touch services. While they can work well, they often suffer from cold start slowness and more importantly, unpredictable bursts of costs if your app becomes popular. In Python in production, we keep these costs low and nearly flat by avoiding dozens of microservices and serverless functions. You won't be blindsided by unpredictable bills if you adopt this methodology. 00:38:21.640 --> 00:38:26.780 Some of the more notable chapters include chapter 4, one big server rather than many small ones. 00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:30.420 Chapter 6, running on Rust Python application servers. 00:38:31.100 --> 00:38:33.660 Chapter 8, visualizing servers and other tools. 00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:36.700 Chapter 14, picking a Python web framework. 00:38:37.220 --> 00:38:43.840 Talk Python in production is available to read online or you can buy the full book at talkpython.fm/devopsbook. 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:55.720 If you're interested in running professional web applications and APIs in production with high availability and yet keeping things simple and manageable, then please consider the Talk Python in production book from yours truly. 00:38:56.240 --> 00:38:59.920 Read it online or get the full book at talkpython.fm/devopsbook. 00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:04.720 Getting the book is a great way to support Talk Python and keep the show going strong. 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.480 The link to the book is in your podcast player show notes. 00:39:08.780 --> 00:39:10.100 Russ out there asks, 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:18.300 "Wagtail?" Not yet. I don't believe we have a Wagtail template, but I'll talk about that in the roadmap. That's coming. 00:39:19.780 --> 00:39:25.260 I guess it's worth pointing out to people that this is sort of at its core Django philosophy, right? 00:39:25.720 --> 00:39:29.020 Currently. We have some other 00:39:29.020 --> 00:39:32.420 use cases that we want to be able to satisfy with Scaf as well. 00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:42.140 For example, instead of deploying into a cloud and like you've got Argo CD, watching for like continuous deployment type stuff. What if you were deploying an appliance like into someone's data center. 00:39:42.600 --> 00:39:47.380 And there were different concerns around security and updates and adopting updates and how it got updated. 00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:49.300 We want to be able to support that use case. 00:39:49.300 --> 00:40:02.800 We want to be able to, I'd love to be able to support a fully serverless, you know, SCAF lite type environment where maybe we're using Lambdas and DynamoDB and API Gateway to deploy the backend in a totally serverless manner. 00:40:03.080 --> 00:40:04.700 SCAF should be able to support that too. 00:40:04.900 --> 00:40:05.880 It's not there yet. 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.060 That's definitely, that's the roadmap piece for sure. 00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:20.880 There probably is some, I'm not totally up on it, but it's probably some open source Valkey equivalent Docker based Lambda type stuff as well that you might be able to say, we want to have a self-contained serverless as part of this. 00:40:21.160 --> 00:40:25.200 - Yeah, for example, the Scaf challenge. 00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:36.540 So if you went to DjangoCon last year, 6PF ran a Scaf challenge where it was to see how fast you could basically run and get a running Django project on your machine in Kubernetes, running locally, ready to develop. 00:40:36.820 --> 00:40:44.840 The winner did it in 26 seconds from running Scaf to Django, actually ready to respond to HTTP requests. 00:40:45.260 --> 00:40:45.400 Wow. 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:53.660 That backend that tracked it was all done in Dynamo, Lambda, and API Gateway using the SAM framework. 00:40:53.880 --> 00:41:00.660 And so on Amazon, there's the serverless application framework that they've got called SAM, which is really nice because you can run it all locally. 00:41:01.180 --> 00:41:09.520 You just do SAM serve or whatever, SAM start, and it spins up containers locally, you spin up your Dynamo container locally. 00:41:09.860 --> 00:41:22.380 So I had the whole thing running on my own machine, much in a way that's why I like about Scaf because it all runs locally, it all is contained and I can play with it, I can destroy it, I can make mistakes, and then when I'm ready, I make a pull request. 00:41:22.650 --> 00:41:52.440 >> Yeah. One of the things that I'm always apprehensive about is building apps that have to have lots of Cloud services constantly active, and not just because I want to be able to say, work in a coffee shop with poor internet connectivity or on an airplane or something like that. But also I feel like there's probably some leakage. I mean I just heard an ad on some podcast about it for a company that whose job is to go and look at all the AWS or Azure stuff you're doing that you might have left running and is costing you $10,000 a month. People just forgot about it. 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.560 You know they'd be like, "Oh, let's try this." >> I think you should say that. We've had that. 00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:57.760 >> Oh really? Tell us a story. 00:41:57.940 --> 00:41:59.120 >> Yeah, that's 00:41:59.120 --> 00:42:04.040 another reason for parts we're adding into SCAF around compliance and cost controls. 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:11.480 I'm a big fan of an open source tool called Cloud Custodian, which is a event-driven Cloud compliance tool. 00:42:11.740 --> 00:42:18.500 If you haven't checked it out, Cloud Custodian is a really great tool for compliance, but also fin ops. 00:42:19.300 --> 00:42:24.880 Making sure your Dev instances aren't running 24/7 when they really only need to run probably eight hours a day, they don't need to run on weekends. 00:42:25.060 --> 00:42:26.640 Cloud Custodian can shut those things down. 00:42:26.740 --> 00:42:31.340 That's something we're adding into SCAF right now, is some minimum set of things. 00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:35.180 like make sure any cloud resources you get deployed are properly tagged. 00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:37.880 You know, are they tagged with an environment like production or development? 00:42:38.120 --> 00:42:48.060 Are they tagged with a cost center or whatever your policies may be, but that will help you avoid those kinds of instances where we had, for example, someone spun up a spot instance. 00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:55.640 Well, if you're not familiar with Amazon, you can request spot instances, which are kind of excess EC2 VMs that are hanging out. 00:42:55.640 --> 00:42:58.100 And if someone releases one, you can pick it up and use it cheaper. 00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:00.380 And they're typically meant to be used temporarily. 00:43:00.780 --> 00:43:03.360 but you request them and they come asynchronously to you. 00:43:03.680 --> 00:43:13.980 So you could go into your console and request one, and if it doesn't come right away, you're like, "Shoot, that didn't work." And you could take off, you know, go get a coffee and get lunch, and then totally forget you requested the spot instance for a giant GPU, whatever. 00:43:14.380 --> 00:43:15.060 - And then it's ready. 00:43:15.380 --> 00:43:17.480 - Yeah, and then it'll show up later in the day. 00:43:18.060 --> 00:43:24.720 And if you don't go and turn it off, you'll pay for it for the month, which was $10,000 for one of them, once that happened to us. 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:35.080 So putting in place the fact that if someone did spin up an instance like that, Cloud Custodian would be watching for it, and we'd shut it down within a day if it didn't follow whatever your policy is for starting up new kinds of instances. 00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:36.400 - That's really cool. 00:43:36.840 --> 00:43:38.940 We're learning about a lot of cool open source tools here. 00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:39.400 This is great. 00:43:39.620 --> 00:43:43.120 - And that's why they're all packaged into SCAP because not everyone knows about all these things. 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:59.960 So we're trying to take our kind of cumulative six feet up journey of 25 years of being on the internet and deploying software and developing software and packaging those opinions into like one spot where it's kind of like someone took our brains, collective brains, and put them into a code repository and now we can deploy and develop like we've been doing 00:43:59.960 --> 00:44:00.700 it for 25 years. 00:44:01.060 --> 00:44:02.500 - Yeah, it's like, well, that was a really sharp edge. 00:44:02.780 --> 00:44:03.880 Let's see if we can come up with that. 00:44:03.910 --> 00:44:04.000 - Oh my gosh, 00:44:04.020 --> 00:44:04.220 yes. 00:44:04.839 --> 00:44:05.200 (both laughing) 00:44:06.799 --> 00:44:11.460 - Somebody's like, guys, sorry, but there's a big bill. 00:44:11.940 --> 00:44:12.500 - There was a big bill. 00:44:13.060 --> 00:44:14.440 Look, I'll give a shout out to Amazon. 00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:19.280 I contacted them and they did refund us for that accidental big bill. 00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:21.980 They're generally pretty good about it if you make that mistake once. 00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:26.420 Now, you gotta make sure you show them, you can demonstrate to them, you've put in place things to not have it happen again. 00:44:26.560 --> 00:44:27.520 - Okay, 'cause you might 00:44:27.520 --> 00:44:28.480 pay for it again. 00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:33.780 - Yeah, I honestly work in the cloud, it's super scary in that regard, you know, when it's overly automated. 00:44:34.040 --> 00:44:42.620 So, one of the things, speaking of deployments and all this that I do when I'm working with my Docker stuff is I'll set up a Docker compose file, that's kind of my zen right now. 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:43.080 - Yeah. 00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:55.500 - And in there you can set deployment limits, like this container can only use so much CPU, more significantly for me usually is like, this container can only use one gig of RAM, even though the server's got 16, tell it it has one. 00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:19.620 And the reason that I think that's super useful is, something goes crazy or starts using too much memory or something like that, you could say, "Oh, there's something going on here without it taking down everything else." And there's other things, especially databases. They're like, "Oh, I've got 16 gigs. I was just going to load everything into memory because that'll be more efficient." Like, no, no, no, you're sharing this with everyone. Could you just load the indexes into your two gigs? That would be good, right? Is there stuff like that here? 00:45:19.980 --> 00:45:26.280 Yeah, exactly. And our opinions on that are in the Kubernetes world. You can be able to put in resource limits and priorities. 00:45:26.620 --> 00:45:28.700 This actually also literally happened to us. 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.680 Again, all of our experience you get to benefit from. 00:45:32.380 --> 00:45:34.040 If you aren't careful with Kubernetes. 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:34.460 >> 00:45:34.460 --> 00:45:38.060 I think every one of these that have a little double dagger thing, you click on it. 00:45:38.230 --> 00:45:38.900 >> That's totally right. 00:45:39.660 --> 00:45:40.180 >> Here's the 00:45:40.180 --> 00:45:41.020 story why this is here. 00:45:41.040 --> 00:45:43.620 Here's the story why this is here, because that's the truth. 00:45:44.859 --> 00:45:48.980 If you don't use resource limits on Kubernetes, they will absolutely stomp on each other. 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.380 Kubernetes is an amazing orchestrator and it will do exactly what it's told. 00:45:52.580 --> 00:45:57.400 And if you've told it that this doesn't have limits, it will give it all the things all the time. 00:45:57.670 --> 00:46:04.080 And you can run into a situation, for example, if you're using cloud native PG, your database is in the cluster, which means it's orchestrated by the cluster. 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:10.840 If you don't give it any limits and you're running multiples and you do a backup, the resources when you do a backup go up. 00:46:11.160 --> 00:46:11.400 Yes, 00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:12.320 100%. Yeah. 00:46:12.630 --> 00:46:16.100 If you do, it basically like scans through all of the data. 00:46:16.180 --> 00:46:16.880 And all the things. 00:46:17.020 --> 00:46:19.200 Why is it using three gigs? It was using just one. 00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:21.200 Oh, because I asked for a full backup. 00:46:21.380 --> 00:46:21.480 >> 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:33.320 Well, and I tell you what it'll do is it'll consume all the resources on one node and then it'll fail over, orchestrated, it'll fail over to the second node and then use all the resources on the second node and then it'll corrupt your database and crash the whole thing. 00:46:33.940 --> 00:46:42.440 Now, if you put in the resource limits and the priorities, because what it should do is it should go off and be like, there's a lot of Django instances running that I don't need to be, I can kill those first. 00:46:42.740 --> 00:46:47.060 I can orchestrate smartly for you only if you smartly configure it. 00:46:47.160 --> 00:46:50.200 >> Right. Here's my goal is to not let this get out of control. 00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:52.900 help me with that. Don't just feed it everything. 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:53.620 - Yeah. 00:46:53.700 --> 00:47:00.840 - Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of these servers are like, "We could do better if we could just take it, "we could load up more and pre-cache more." But they don't work well together like 00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:00.940 that. 00:47:01.140 --> 00:47:03.960 - Right, yeah. I mean, they're greedy. 00:47:04.100 --> 00:47:09.080 They're gonna try and take the resources they need to do the job they need to do, but they can be told to be less greedy. 00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:11.900 And Kubernetes is how we do that. 00:47:12.330 --> 00:47:12.740 - Yeah, more 00:47:12.740 --> 00:47:14.200 importantly, they can be forced to be less greedy. 00:47:14.220 --> 00:47:14.460 - You 00:47:14.460 --> 00:47:15.780 need to stay in line. 00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:16.880 (laughing) 00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:18.700 - So what you got? You're not getting more. 00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:20.880 All right, let's talk through the building blocks here. 00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:27.040 You mentioned a couple of them, but there's a big long list of things that I think is gonna be pretty interesting to people. 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:27.880 Started with Django. 00:47:28.220 --> 00:47:28.320 - Yeah. 00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:30.060 - And then let's go down the building block. 00:47:30.240 --> 00:47:33.380 When I make an app like this, it has an opinion, it looks like as well. 00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:35.520 It's not just a vanilla Django app. 00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:35.980 - Correct. 00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:40.040 Yeah, you could be doing asynchronous tasks, so that's why there's a Celery opinion in there. 00:47:40.180 --> 00:47:43.420 Like we, you know, if you've got a project, you know you're gonna have jobs in the background. 00:47:43.940 --> 00:47:45.720 Sure, let's get Celery installed. 00:47:46.240 --> 00:48:19.880 If you're doing something with a fancy front end React, where our opinion is really to use Next.js. And if you install Next.js, you'll get like the strawberry GraphQL stuff out of the box, which is kind of nice and Apollo on the front end, if the Next.js is also chosen. So some GraphQL opinions have been made and the plumbing laid to make it just work, which is kind of hard sometimes. If you're diving into a new technology like React and GraphQL, it's nice to have some opinions and to have them pre-wired up for you. So you can just just kind of follow the pattern that's already been laid for you. 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:21.860 Okay. I'm told that 00:48:21.860 --> 00:48:23.520 Next.js is really, really popular. 00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:24.180 Yeah. 00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:26.320 Tell us about what is Next.js. 00:48:26.520 --> 00:48:30.260 Yeah, I mean, Next.js is a set of opinions around React. 00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:36.920 Much in the way that, for example, like Zope and Plone were opinions around how to do a Python web framework. 00:48:37.340 --> 00:48:44.960 Next.js is kind of a packaging of some opinions about how I would deploy and write React applications and keep them up to date. 00:48:45.180 --> 00:48:50.940 For anyone who's done a React application, you can start with the standard React demo application. 00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:52.620 But from there, you start adding on it. 00:48:53.100 --> 00:49:13.520 Again, I'm definitely not the TypeScript, JavaScript front-end person, but dependency spaghetti mess will happen very quickly in this world, or can happen very quickly in this world, which will lead you into a spot where it's really difficult to upgrade your React application to get all the dependencies upgraded. 00:49:13.640 --> 00:49:17.040 and there's security vulnerabilities and issues you need to be aware of and performance things. 00:49:17.180 --> 00:49:19.500 So you want to make sure you can stay on top of those versions. 00:49:19.620 --> 00:49:25.500 And Next.js is basically a set of guidelines and opinions that should help guide you down a more happy path. 00:49:25.720 --> 00:49:26.480 And that's why we chose it. 00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:35.900 I think even the React folks tend to suggest using Next.js instead of just React on its own because you get those opinions and should have an easier time keeping things up to date. 00:49:36.140 --> 00:49:36.200 Yeah, 00:49:36.460 --> 00:49:40.040 I know the JS stuff feels like it's so complicated, but it's again because we're 00:49:40.040 --> 00:49:41.520 asking more and more. 00:49:41.700 --> 00:49:47.620 People have high expectations of the web applications that they interact with on a daily basis. 00:49:48.520 --> 00:49:54.300 It's just a fact of life that people expect, have expectations about how things are going to behave and the experience they're going to get. 00:49:54.540 --> 00:49:56.060 Yeah. They're like, Gmail's cool. 00:49:56.420 --> 00:49:58.100 Google Maps is cool. Can ours do that? 00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:03.800 Like, you realize this is a static website. 00:50:04.180 --> 00:50:05.680 You're the developer behind that? 00:50:06.120 --> 00:50:06.300 Yeah. 00:50:06.600 --> 00:50:07.100 And then if we 00:50:07.100 --> 00:50:10.060 keep going down this list, I mean, we've standardized on Postgres. 00:50:10.460 --> 00:50:12.240 and that's historic. 00:50:12.520 --> 00:50:15.040 We probably 15 years ago used MySQL. 00:50:16.080 --> 00:50:20.800 And that was back in the days of MySQL silently dropping data, on you. 00:50:21.120 --> 00:50:23.300 but I don't think those You got enough. 00:50:23.300 --> 00:50:25.400 I mean, you got enough of your data kept. There's a lot. 00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:33.740 That's exactly what it was. So we, we switched to Postgres and haven't looked back. and there's just a lot of exciting things happening there. So if you're not on Postgres, I highly 00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:42.260 recommend it. Good, good, good bet there, because if you look at the surveys and stuff, like The majority of people are doing that, especially if they're doing relational databases. 00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:46.860 It's Postgres and then you better justify why you're not using Postgres. 00:50:47.640 --> 00:50:52.780 >> Then if you're going to run Postgres and you're running Kubernetes, you're going to want to have some kind of an operator to manage it for you. 00:50:53.020 --> 00:50:57.700 If you want to have high availability, you want to have data backups, and that's what Cloud Native PG gives you. 00:50:58.180 --> 00:51:02.100 You can back up into S3 buckets, or you can back up into, you name it. 00:51:02.520 --> 00:51:06.640 There's multiple kinds of targets that are supported, but it manages all that hard complexity for you. 00:51:06.700 --> 00:51:21.160 If you've ever set up Postgres replication and high availability on your own and had to deal with all the wall files and moving them around and backing them up, it's a sophisticated beast, a complicated, sophisticated beast and no one wants to deal with that. 00:51:21.200 --> 00:51:22.500 And that's what Cloud Native PG does for you. 00:51:22.980 --> 00:51:25.980 It gives you UI and a way to configure it and away you go. 00:51:26.200 --> 00:51:26.900 - And then after that, 00:51:26.980 --> 00:51:27.600 we have Valkey. 00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:28.440 - Yeah, Valkey. 00:51:29.900 --> 00:51:31.620 Which is our Redis drop-in replacement. 00:51:32.420 --> 00:51:34.280 If you're not using Redis in your Django apps, you should be. 00:51:34.760 --> 00:51:38.540 even if nothing more than just the Django template cache, I would turn that on. 00:51:39.040 --> 00:51:41.800 We've been using Mailhog for our email locally. 00:51:41.900 --> 00:51:43.820 So this is a local developer tool. 00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:49.740 Allows you to simulate email being sent off of your development instance without actually sending email anywhere. 00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:50.860 - So it's a little 00:51:50.860 --> 00:51:51.960 bit like mocking email. 00:51:52.440 --> 00:51:53.360 - Yeah, yeah, it's super nice. 00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:55.560 It runs an SMTP server, it gives you a web UI. 00:51:56.700 --> 00:52:02.420 It looks like real email, it gives you an inbox so you can basically see what your end users are gonna see. 00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:07.080 Argo is the CI/CD product, but the open source GitOps. 00:52:07.540 --> 00:52:11.560 So it watches your repositories, kind of tracks the status of the deployments. 00:52:12.020 --> 00:52:12.960 - Okay, so you basically pick 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:17.060 a prod branch or something like that and you push the prod then magic happens. 00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:19.080 - Yeah, Argo does the magic behind that. 00:52:19.080 --> 00:52:34.440 And you can see that it also gives you a bit of a insight into your cluster, you know, what's running, what's being deployed, what state they're in, you know, it handles all the like blue green, you know, rollout of new code, new pods and new containers into your clusters. 00:52:35.180 --> 00:52:36.880 It's, yeah, I can set up a 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:38.620 QA cluster as well. 00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:41.280 Yep. Right. Just pick a different branch and have it watch that. Right. 00:52:41.460 --> 00:52:57.780 But that's what we do. So inside the SCAF built skeleton you get on your file system, you're going to have a Kubernetes manifest directory that has a base set of manifests, which are, this is what's needed to define the deployment and the services and all the bits. 00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:30.300 And then each environment, for example, like the sandbox environment, has an Argo running that'll be watching for sandbox changes, and the production environment will be watching for production changes. Another thing we standardize on here that's not listed is things like sealed secrets. So you can check in your secrets to your Git repository for sandbox, for example, but the only machine on the planet that can decrypt them is the sandbox instance, because you actually use the sealed secrets operator to do the encryption. And the only The only way it can be decrypted is if those things are sitting in that cluster, in the sandbox cluster or in the production cluster. 00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:34.820 So what's nice is the sandbox cluster cannot decrypt the production secrets. 00:53:34.890 --> 00:53:38.740 So you can have, obviously you want to have different secrets for production than you do for sandbox. 00:53:39.260 --> 00:53:40.440 So you can have least privilege. 00:53:40.590 --> 00:53:46.400 You know, developers have access, maybe more unfettered access to sandbox, but they may have more limited access on production. 00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:52.640 And tools like sealed secrets and customize and Kubernetes manifests and sealed secrets actually make all that work. 00:53:52.780 --> 00:53:53.020 Okay. 00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:53.580 Yeah. 00:53:53.600 --> 00:53:55.740 And that's, that's news to me as well. 00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:56.780 This one, I love it. 00:53:56.940 --> 00:53:58.800 I do something similar with my things as well. 00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:09.820 Like I know a lot of people have huge environment variable definitions of all their, I'm like, yeah, you just, you just need one value that unlocks the other, you know, highly encrypted stuff. 00:54:10.080 --> 00:55:43.460 Now for, for someone actually asked a question I'm getting ready to answer, which is about external secrets and services for those things, local development, we've have an opinion around using one password for all of our secrets management, whether it's like passwords for websites or API keys, or in this case, development environment, database passwords, development environment, you know, secrets, like Django has a secret, Django secret in there, things like that. Those are actually, in our case, environment variables. And we use the one password command line tool to only decrypt them ever in memory. So when you run like the Django start, or like the anytime you run the Kubernetes cluster locally and kind, it will feed those environment variables via the config map into your cluster so that it can access the database in the cluster locally. So even locally, you have a long, random, unknown password to you that is actually stored in one password. So if you want to go use your, I use Postico as a GUI for accessing my local Postgres, I can use that. I can actually feed the data from one password and actually access my services. So locally using one password and environment variables and config maps. But when going to sandbox, we just use sealed secrets on sandbox and production for mostly cross-platform consistency. You could be using, you know, SSM parameter store on Amazon or secrets manager on Amazon, but then that won't work on Google or won't work on Azure. And so we just standardize around the sealed secrets for ease of deployment to any cluster in any platform anywhere. 00:55:43.830 --> 00:55:46.880 Yeah, the one password new CLI stuff and SSH. 00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:47.320 So nice. 00:55:48.060 --> 00:55:49.880 Secret provider, whatever you call that thing. 00:55:50.180 --> 00:55:51.380 Yeah, it's super nice. 00:55:51.980 --> 00:56:01.200 Yeah, if you've not turned on the SSH keys for your 1Password CLI, I have no secret keys, no SSH keys, no API credentials. 00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:04.060 I have no secrets on my file system unencrypted. 00:56:04.520 --> 00:56:08.260 They're living in 1Password and 1Password proxies that access when needed. 00:56:08.640 --> 00:56:09.380 Yeah, that's pretty neat. 00:56:09.560 --> 00:56:10.900 I feel like I should maybe embrace that more. 00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:13.940 I embrace 1Password a lot, but there's more. 00:56:13.940 --> 00:56:14.920 Especially when 00:56:14.920 --> 00:56:21.000 you're working on multiple projects and multiple environments and you want to, again, have that least privileged access. 00:56:21.150 --> 00:56:23.400 You don't want to have one key to rule them all. 00:56:23.410 --> 00:56:32.200 You want to have keys to get you access to Sandbox, keys that can get you access to production, and you want to be able to give only certain people access to those production keys and only certain people access to Sandbox keys. 00:56:32.520 --> 00:56:36.340 And we actually do that with, so we're a Microsoft 365 shop. 00:56:36.490 --> 00:56:43.280 We use Microsoft's Entra Directory service, which is their Azure Active Directory product, and we use security groups. 00:56:43.540 --> 00:56:56.800 And so based on what security groups or what project you're working on, gives you access to only certain vaults inside of one password, gives you access to only certain accounts inside of Amazon and those kinds of things are all wired up to our, our single sign on platform. 00:56:57.080 --> 00:56:57.540 Yeah. Very nice. 00:56:57.740 --> 00:56:58.080 Traffic. 00:56:58.660 --> 00:57:02.260 Traffic's just an ingress controller. it's like a load balancer 00:57:02.260 --> 00:57:02.680 type thing. 00:57:02.900 --> 00:57:04.740 Yeah. It's a load balancer kind of cloud. 00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:13.220 If you rethought about a web server and it was cloud native and containers and understood clusters like Kubernetes clusters, this is what traffic is. 00:57:13.520 --> 00:57:14.000 Um, 00:57:14.520 --> 00:57:14.840 I see. 00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:18.680 So maybe a better analogy would be like NGINX or yeah. 00:57:19.020 --> 00:57:19.120 Yeah. 00:57:19.120 --> 00:57:20.260 I mean, I think we all grew up, 00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:29.680 we all grew up on NGINX and made it do all the crazy reverse proxy things like traffic is the one born in the cloud native world version of that. 00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:34.840 Now NGINX has their own ingress controller as well that they've re rewritten to be more cloud native. 00:57:35.060 --> 00:57:36.400 That's just what traffic is for us. 00:57:36.640 --> 00:57:43.040 cert manager again, handling things like TLS certificates and renewals and you name it, cert manager, make sure. 00:57:43.060 --> 00:57:47.220 How's that different than Let's Encrypt and Certbot and things like that? 00:57:48.360 --> 00:57:50.560 I mean, it's really similar in those cases. 00:57:50.560 --> 00:57:53.520 I think actually Certmanager, I think, is using Let's Encrypt under the covers. 00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:55.600 I could be wrong on that one. 00:57:55.740 --> 00:57:56.220 Maybe more 00:57:56.220 --> 00:57:58.520 cluster focused because that could be a real challenge. 00:57:58.660 --> 00:57:58.780 Well, 00:57:58.800 --> 00:58:04.080 because a lot of the, again, another beauty of Kubernetes that I don't think a lot of people talk about is the operators. 00:58:04.420 --> 00:58:14.420 These are like, you know, extensions or plugins to the Kubernetes cluster that give you superpowers to do things like make sure the certs are always, you know, renewed, make sure the latest code is always deployed. 00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:17.420 Make sure the database is highly available and backed up. 00:58:17.620 --> 00:58:21.140 Make sure, you know, that's what these operators do in the Kubernetes world. 00:58:21.340 --> 00:58:25.280 Is there like just plugins to your cluster that give you these extended capabilities? 00:58:25.860 --> 00:58:27.560 And that's what CertManager is, it's another one of those. 00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:30.040 So, and that handles the certificates and grass routes. 00:58:30.140 --> 00:58:32.580 That's all like kind of traffic CertManager certificates. 00:58:32.780 --> 00:58:33.140 It's all, 00:58:33.460 --> 00:58:34.260 yeah, it's all together. 00:58:34.500 --> 00:58:34.860 All together. 00:58:35.260 --> 00:58:41.240 Won't give you the certificate unless it can prove that certificate, that domain routes back to that thing. 00:58:41.380 --> 00:58:45.320 And yeah, it's great, but it does get a little complicated in Docker already. 00:58:45.520 --> 00:58:48.800 And then I can imagine auto scaling blusters that gets thrown away. 00:58:49.020 --> 00:58:50.000 You want it all just to work. 00:58:50.620 --> 00:58:52.000 Yeah, you don't want the certificate expired. 00:58:52.200 --> 00:58:54.060 Warning, danger, do not proceed to this website. 00:58:54.200 --> 00:58:54.580 Oh, no. 00:58:55.370 --> 00:58:56.980 All right, we got Prometheus in the house. 00:58:57.360 --> 00:58:59.000 Well, and Prometheus and Grafana are 00:58:59.000 --> 00:58:59.940 kind of together here. 00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:08.380 It's nice to have a observability, be able to see stats and trending data, to be able to make decisions on how you're scaling or handling load. 00:59:08.859 --> 00:59:14.060 It's hard to predict sometimes what a service is going to do when you go deploy it to real users. 00:59:14.540 --> 00:59:22.640 Real users have an uncanny knack of pushing buttons and making things happen that produce lots of crazy edge cases. 00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:24.920 - Right, this part was slow, so I just kept pushing the button. 00:59:25.080 --> 00:59:25.800 Like, you know, it's how 00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:26.980 much more load you're putting. 00:59:26.990 --> 00:59:28.660 It was really slow, 'cause I couldn't handle it. 00:59:28.820 --> 00:59:30.120 - And you'd prefer 00:59:30.120 --> 00:59:34.660 that you know about these problems before your users report them to you. 00:59:34.680 --> 00:59:38.220 So tools like Prometheus and Grafana and Loki. 00:59:38.700 --> 00:59:41.740 So Loki specifically is log aggregation. 00:59:42.520 --> 00:59:43.980 Prometheus is going to be a lot of metrics. 00:59:44.160 --> 00:59:46.200 And we combine those all into like Grafana dashboards. 00:59:46.640 --> 00:59:51.440 The trick here is, you know, you want to be able to get all the data, but then you got to make something meaningful of the data. 00:59:51.530 --> 00:59:57.100 And so we try to put in some, you know, default dashboards that give you that. 00:59:57.230 --> 01:00:06.940 If I was stuck on an island, what was the one screen of information I might need to make a business decision about what's happening here type view of things and not overload you with too much information. 01:00:07.100 --> 01:00:15.760 But you want to be able to dive deeper and see, oh, you know, when the database backup kicks in, the IO all of a sudden goes crazy. And that's why we're seeing a dip in here. 01:00:15.820 --> 01:00:36.640 And that's why there was a failover. Like, be able to trace back those things without data is impossible. And you only again, because we're in a clustered world and there's lots of interdependencies and these things can scale out, you could have many, many nodes running these tools, you got to have some way of getting a, I hate to say it, a single pane of glass. I'll put that out there. 01:00:36.720 --> 01:00:36.820 I 01:00:36.820 --> 01:00:42.040 can see my entire business in a single pane of glass. It is humming smoothly. 01:00:42.440 --> 01:00:43.180 Yeah, I'm sure 01:00:43.180 --> 01:00:48.740 all the IT folks, they all just cringe to like, "Oh my God, he just said it." Some 01:00:48.740 --> 01:00:58.520 people cringe and say, "Yes, they're speaking my language." Out there, my goal in the audience, the Media Cube from EPS is all of the pre-configured dashboards for Yeah, it's out of the box. 01:00:58.860 --> 01:00:58.940 Yeah, 01:00:58.960 --> 01:01:00.500 yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. 01:01:00.530 --> 01:01:06.540 I mean, there's there's so many good example dashboards under Fanta that it is no reason not to be using this for durability. 01:01:07.060 --> 01:01:10.480 And this is like the table stakes, like you better start here and you better just do it. 01:01:10.900 --> 01:01:18.140 But a lot of people deploy an app and then they they I mean, how many times have you worked within a developer and you're like, well, if something's wrong, I can't figure out why. 01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:22.160 And the first thing you tell them, I guarantee you, Michael, the first thing you tell them to do is did you look in the logs? 01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:23.960 And they're like, no, I didn't look in the logs. 01:01:24.040 --> 01:01:26.080 I'm like, well, that's the first thing I do is go look at the logs. 01:01:26.560 --> 01:01:28.940 Yeah, that's the second thing you tell them. 01:01:29.040 --> 01:01:29.580 What's the first? 01:01:29.640 --> 01:01:31.460 First thing is, do you have logging? 01:01:32.680 --> 01:01:33.000 [laughing] 01:01:33.359 --> 01:01:34.020 True, okay. 01:01:34.160 --> 01:01:34.880 Yes, I have it. 01:01:34.940 --> 01:01:35.860 Okay, did you look at them? 01:01:36.320 --> 01:01:36.740 Fair enough. 01:01:36.900 --> 01:01:40.080 I was about to ask you though, like, do you have, do you have logging set up in this? 01:01:40.140 --> 01:01:44.340 And do you have like Log Guru or do you have Logbook or do you just do Python logging or what's the 01:01:44.340 --> 01:01:44.500 story? 01:01:44.700 --> 01:01:51.580 Yeah, I mean, we're using containers, so things should be set up to log as we would expect them in Kubernetes. 01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:58.060 So it's kind of like the if you've ever looked at the 12 factor app, you know, there's opinions about how logging should happen. 01:01:58.360 --> 01:02:07.340 That's what we adhere to is that logging should end up in a natural spot where it's easy for us to aggregate with tools like Prometheus and Grafana and actually then action and do something with them. 01:02:07.660 --> 01:02:09.800 So we typically have another SSH 01:02:09.800 --> 01:02:12.760 into other machines to see, well, what's this thing doing? What's that doing? 01:02:13.080 --> 01:02:16.720 And that's one thing I want to have no SSH into these clusters. 01:02:17.600 --> 01:02:23.580 Actually, one of our deployment opinions here is using things like Talos Linux for our Kubernetes deployments. 01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:26.560 Talos does not have a SSH shell enabled. 01:02:27.080 --> 01:02:30.420 Talos Linux has the ability to launch Kubernetes clusters. 01:02:30.560 --> 01:02:36.200 So you can use kubectl to manage your Kubernetes, but then you have the Talos CTL to manage Talos. 01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:38.200 There's no reason to shell into a box. 01:02:38.560 --> 01:02:42.340 It's just another security surface that you can now get rid of. 01:02:42.450 --> 01:02:44.020 >> Yeah. Very interesting. There's a couple of 01:02:44.060 --> 01:02:48.200 these single-purpose Linux distributions out there that are really, really cool. 01:02:48.370 --> 01:02:48.480 >> 01:02:48.480 --> 01:02:50.900 We've evaluated quite a few, And this is the one we picked. 01:02:51.260 --> 01:02:52.300 I liked its opinions. 01:02:52.410 --> 01:02:53.280 I liked its approach. 01:02:53.370 --> 01:02:54.860 I like the community that's behind it. 01:02:55.100 --> 01:02:58.080 One thing when you're picking a lot of these software tools is you need to look at the communities. 01:02:58.180 --> 01:02:59.400 You need to see how active they are. 01:02:59.700 --> 01:03:03.300 You need to understand, is this going to be a viable project, you know, five years from now? 01:03:03.420 --> 01:03:07.380 'Cause these are opinions you'll pick now and you'll have to live with potentially a long time. 01:03:07.640 --> 01:03:08.540 - That's a great point. 01:03:08.840 --> 01:03:11.680 Is this going to be your hobby project that you're going to have to keep it running for 01:03:11.680 --> 01:03:12.260 everyone else? 01:03:12.340 --> 01:03:14.080 Or is this thing got a life of its own? 01:03:14.180 --> 01:03:15.420 'Cause I don't need another hobby. 01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:16.240 - Yeah, exactly. 01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:18.100 We want this to be for real. 01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:18.460 Yeah. 01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:21.040 Let's do one more shout out of all the building blocks here. 01:03:21.540 --> 01:03:23.960 Sentry, you know, long time sponsor, friend of the show. 01:03:24.180 --> 01:03:36.100 Yeah. So again, observability tools like this, especially when it comes to like tools like Sentry or even DataDog and New Relic, we just happen to pick Sentry because I like, again, like the community. 01:03:36.160 --> 01:03:38.500 I like the people who are behind that tool. 01:03:38.940 --> 01:03:45.360 I can't tell you how much time a tool like Sentry has saved us when trying to diagnose and debug performance issues. 01:03:45.580 --> 01:04:01.380 I know it has lots and lots of features it can do, But when you're looking at a stack and you've got a n plus one performance issue going on with your database queries and its integrations with Django, its integrations with Redis and Postgres, just make tracking down that kind of stuff so much easier. 01:04:02.020 --> 01:04:08.520 We again, I'll go back to that 2020, 2021, when we launched Loud Swarm as a virtual event platform space. 01:04:08.760 --> 01:04:17.520 being able to deliver the schedule to a React application quickly as it's changing throughout the day was actually a big performance challenge. 01:04:17.780 --> 01:04:20.540 And Sentry highlighted exactly where the problems were. 01:04:20.860 --> 01:04:27.040 And then we just implemented a simple Redis cache that took us from 90 second generation of the schedule down to like milliseconds. 01:04:27.600 --> 01:04:32.240 And that was because we were able to pinpoint the issue really, really carefully and really, really close to a Sentry. 01:04:32.540 --> 01:04:36.560 It just, it bubbles up your problems and now you just go pick off the low hanging fruit. 01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:53.180 Yeah, that's awesome. I've also used it for error monitoring stuff and it's, I'm more than one, I know I say this on the show for some of the ads, but more than once, and this is not an ad, but I've certainly gotten an error and it's got all the variables of not just the stack trace, but actually the variables of what user ran into problems and all sorts of stuff. 01:04:53.240 --> 01:05:04.780 And I reached out to multiple people, said, I see you ran into this problem. I'm really sorry. I fixed it. Give it another try. And I'm sure that's a creepy experience in one way, but also you're like, geez, that doesn't happen very often. 01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:06.760 But you know, like, well, I fix it and I know who it is. 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:08.740 I might as well tell them like, hey, sorry, you hit this. 01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:08.980 Yeah. 01:05:09.759 --> 01:05:15.340 One tool we've not mentioned here that is not in this list that I think is super important to our staff stack is Tilt. 01:05:16.080 --> 01:05:20.720 That is the local Kubernetes management tool of choice that we have picked. 01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:25.980 And if you've not played with Tilt, we've gone through different tools along the way. 01:05:26.060 --> 01:05:30.300 There was one called Scaffold and I can't remember the other ones we tried. 01:05:30.420 --> 01:05:34.820 There's numerous ones out there who basically sit in this space and try and solve this problem. 01:05:35.120 --> 01:05:40.720 But the killer feature for Tilt was two-way sync between your cluster and your local machine. 01:05:41.020 --> 01:05:50.980 So again, if you're running locally and using Kine, you probably don't notice anything because Tilt is watching your file system, synchronizing your files into the Kubernetes cluster for you to work, but it also does the reverse. 01:05:51.440 --> 01:06:11.440 One of the key bits I wanted was when you do a compilation of your requirements for your project, you're running Django and you've got a whole set of requirements, if you get into some trickier things, like around the data science world, there may be things that compile differently on macOS than on Linux, than on Windows, because they use some slightly different dependencies. 01:06:11.720 --> 01:06:14.400 That can be tricky when you're working in a container world. 01:06:14.560 --> 01:06:29.740 So you want to make sure you're doing your pip-tools compile, well, via uv, but your pip-tools compile in the container, in the target environment of where this is going to be deployed and built, because you'll get different results if you ran that pip-tools compile on your Mac, as opposed to into the Linux VM or Linux container. 01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:29.880 - Yeah, 01:06:29.880 --> 01:06:30.320 that's true. 01:06:30.700 --> 01:06:32.700 >> A platform specific wheels. 01:06:33.110 --> 01:06:41.660 >> Yeah. So tools like Tilt makes sure that I can run my thing in the container, and the result of it synchronizes back to my file system, and then I check that into the repository. 01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:43.540 That was a key bit there. 01:06:44.059 --> 01:06:46.480 Again, it has a lot of other cool things, nice UI. 01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:52.920 If you fire up Scaf, at the very end of it, it'll tell you, "Congratulations, you got a new project on your file system. 01:06:53.560 --> 01:07:02.740 CD in your project and just type Tilt up." You type Tilt up and you hit space bar, I think it is, and it launches a web browser with all the status of all the containers that are running locally. 01:07:03.220 --> 01:07:11.000 You can see all the logging, you can tilt watches for changes to your local file system for the code, tilt watches for changes to the Docker files. 01:07:11.240 --> 01:07:22.240 If you change the Docker file out from underneath tilt, like while you're developing, say you're adding a new layer, a new dependency or something that's needed in Docker and not in your Python, tilt will rebuild the container immediately for you. 01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:26.760 Like without you having to do anything, like you just kind of, you just code along and tilt keeps up. 01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:27.980 - Wow, that's awesome. 01:07:28.280 --> 01:07:28.360 - Yeah. 01:07:29.020 --> 01:07:29.980 setting your unit has 01:07:29.980 --> 01:07:31.260 to run on every save. 01:07:31.260 --> 01:07:31.960 >> Exactly. 01:07:32.240 --> 01:07:33.840 It is. It's fast. 01:07:34.260 --> 01:07:35.600 Sometimes you barely even notice. 01:07:35.660 --> 01:07:41.940 Like if you're working in a very late layer in the build, those builds can happen really, really quickly because most of the stuff is cached. 01:07:42.620 --> 01:07:43.820 Just notice of opinions. 01:07:44.620 --> 01:07:53.140 We've really tried to finally tune all the caching in the Docker files and all the layers so that these images build fast, they build slim, they use caches. 01:07:54.020 --> 01:07:57.980 So if you're running locally, it's going to cache things locally in your file system. 01:07:58.100 --> 01:08:01.700 you blow things away and start over again, it doesn't take forever to download all the stuff. 01:08:01.700 --> 01:08:03.240 It should be pulling from your local cache. 01:08:03.520 --> 01:08:07.180 - Yeah, that's a big shift when you're doing container type stuff. 01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:15.000 - Oh, man, 'cause some folks may have a not great experience with containers because of the size of some of these things and because they're not effectively using caching. 01:08:15.180 --> 01:08:16.180 This is a game changer. 01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:17.540 - Right, it 100% is. 01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:19.000 And just maybe potentially just 01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:22.040 reordering or splitting up commands could make - Oh, yeah. 01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:23.819 - 10x difference in speed. 01:08:25.020 --> 01:08:30.819 - Well, and you were the one who convinced me to switch over to uv inside their container builds as well. 01:08:30.980 --> 01:08:32.819 And that absolutely sped things up. 01:08:33.120 --> 01:08:33.700 Speed is a feature. 01:08:33.859 --> 01:08:41.080 I know you had that interview with Charlie, and that was one of the things that came out of that, but it's stuck in my head is speed is a feature, and I take that everywhere with me. 01:08:41.339 --> 01:08:41.759 - Yeah, that's awesome. 01:08:42.240 --> 01:08:43.799 It's a cheat code for sure. 01:08:43.870 --> 01:08:45.120 It's like, oh, we've hit it three, 10 times. 01:08:45.259 --> 01:08:46.380 Let's try that, that's awesome. 01:08:46.580 --> 01:08:51.880 And then, yeah, you can layer on more caching on top of that and make it even more ridiculous. 01:08:52.500 --> 01:08:54.880 All right, I think that's probably it for the time to talk through this. 01:08:54.920 --> 01:08:56.160 What a cool project you got here. 01:08:56.440 --> 01:08:59.920 Let's close it out with a roadmap. 01:09:00.410 --> 01:09:01.339 - So we've got a lot of things coming. 01:09:02.020 --> 01:09:10.720 One of the big ones is a big shift from using Cookie Cutter, which I've mentioned already, to using Copier as our underlying templating product. 01:09:11.040 --> 01:09:12.020 The big benefit-- - Tell people what Copier 01:09:12.020 --> 01:09:12.500 is, yeah. 01:09:12.680 --> 01:09:16.020 - Yeah, so Copiers, like Cookie Cutter, actually is a drop-in replacement for Cookie Cutter. 01:09:16.020 --> 01:09:23.420 You can use your Cookie Cutter templates you've already built with Copier, but now you can actually modularize them and upgrade them. 01:09:23.660 --> 01:09:27.680 So one of the problems with Cookie Cutter, was it was kind of one and done. 01:09:27.900 --> 01:09:32.880 Like you blew out your template onto the file system, you've got your code. That's the last time you would touch cookie cutter. 01:09:33.200 --> 01:09:43.600 But if new opinions come around, which we're constantly adding new opinions to SCAF about how we do dev and how we do deployment, you would want those to roll back into old projects that had been built with that same tool. 01:09:43.759 --> 01:09:44.700 Copier enables this. 01:09:44.839 --> 01:09:58.580 Copier now allows us to rerun against an existing project and adopt new opinions that have been made from the source template. And that's another change we're making is we're actually allowing Scaf to have multiple template types. 01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:02.960 So right now, the Scaf kind of runs in a full stack Django app mode. 01:10:03.280 --> 01:10:06.220 We're going to have the Scaf Lite version, which may be serverless. 01:10:06.320 --> 01:10:11.720 We're going to have the appliance mode, which would enable not using Argo CD, for example, but different ways of updating. 01:10:12.040 --> 01:10:15.420 We'll have opinions that are not Django necessarily. 01:10:15.580 --> 01:10:19.340 They may be more data pipeline versions of your apps. 01:10:19.400 --> 01:10:23.860 And so those will be templates that can be updated and and redeployed and kept up to date with Copier. 01:10:24.080 --> 01:10:29.620 That's cool. Yeah, I can see a whole idea, a whole concept of this for ML workloads and science 01:10:29.620 --> 01:10:32.780 workloads. And we don't actually need a web app. Exactly. 01:10:32.910 --> 01:10:39.560 What we need is data ingestion and intel and we want results, either a notebook or just something in a database on the other end of them. 01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:58.160 Yeah. Yeah, that's a big, that's a big deal. And that's another thing that is included in Skap Opinions is the CI pipeline, the GitHub actions, Bitbucket Act, you know, workflows or whatever their CI thing is called. Because those Those are important, those need to be there day one, 'cause they're so hard to tack on later, or you just get busy and you don't tack them on when you should have. 01:10:58.260 --> 01:11:06.060 - Yeah, it's good to have all this experience and all these rounded off rough edges put together in one box for you, very cool. 01:11:06.540 --> 01:11:13.440 All right, well we're certainly out of time, Calvin, so how about, we've got two things to close this out, unlike normal. 01:11:13.720 --> 01:11:15.680 So let's close it out with a final call to action. 01:11:15.720 --> 01:11:16.840 People are interested in SCAF. 01:11:17.160 --> 01:11:18.420 - Yeah, they 01:11:18.420 --> 01:11:19.660 should definitely go to-- - Should I go to Starrett? 01:11:20.020 --> 01:11:20.780 - Yep, go to Starrett. 01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:53.700 log in apparently. Yeah, go hang out, go to the 6github/scaph GitHub repository. It's a one-liner to install. I would love to hear your feedback, you know, any feature requests, you know, any bugs you find. We've worked really hard on ironing out a lot of those issues over the last year as we kind of pushed toward DjangoCon last year. It's amazing and mind-blowing to see how fast you can get a Django project up and running on your own machine with Kubernetes in the mix. Maybe people a little background information, like they're like, I heard of Kubernetes. 01:11:54.340 --> 01:11:55.460 What do I do with it? 01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:59.940 Like you got good resources for them to Oh, on YouTube, there's 01:11:59.940 --> 01:12:11.380 an excellent YouTuber. Her name's Nana. So if you just search Nana and Kubernetes, she does an incredible job of explaining Kubernetes to everybody. 01:12:12.180 --> 01:12:15.640 Yeah. I believe it's Nana Codes. Yeah. Technical Nana. 01:12:16.010 --> 01:12:16.140 Yeah. 01:12:16.360 --> 01:12:17.240 Yeah. She's awesome. 01:12:17.240 --> 01:12:18.160 She's really good. Yeah. 01:12:18.260 --> 01:12:18.720 She's really good. 01:12:18.740 --> 01:12:19.340 She's really good. 01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:23.040 a great way of explaining these kind of deeper technology things. 01:12:23.140 --> 01:12:24.700 That's literally where I went. 01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:26.320 I was like, I need to know more about Kubernetes. 01:12:26.480 --> 01:12:27.540 I went and watched her videos. 01:12:28.160 --> 01:12:28.720 I met her in person. 01:12:28.840 --> 01:12:29.860 She's actually an AWS hero. 01:12:30.180 --> 01:12:31.960 And she was at reInvent a couple of years ago. 01:12:32.060 --> 01:12:36.120 And just again, superhuman being doing this for the love of technology. 01:12:36.700 --> 01:12:39.600 Actually, I can give a shout out also to one of the people in the chat. 01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:44.000 Michael Levin is also a prolific YouTuber on Kubernetes. 01:12:44.400 --> 01:12:44.900 Oh, no kidding. 01:12:45.120 --> 01:12:46.920 Okay, I'll put a link to his channel as well. 01:12:47.280 --> 01:12:47.360 Awesome. 01:12:47.440 --> 01:12:49.600 All right, well, Calvin, thank you for being here. 01:12:49.940 --> 01:12:50.580 It's been awesome. 01:12:51.000 --> 01:12:54.320 I can't tell you how excited I was about the opportunity. 01:12:54.580 --> 01:12:55.460 Yeah, it's been super 01:12:55.460 --> 01:12:56.240 fun and I 01:12:56.240 --> 01:12:56.980 was excited as well. 01:12:57.620 --> 01:13:01.760 So much so, so much so that I've made a theme song for this episode. 01:13:02.060 --> 01:13:04.460 I'm not going to play it on the YouTube live stream version. 01:13:04.580 --> 01:13:06.460 It's just the logistics of that are a little bit challenging. 01:13:07.000 --> 01:13:08.200 But I'll put a link 01:13:08.200 --> 01:13:08.620 in 01:13:08.620 --> 01:13:11.100 the YouTube description in a day or two. 01:13:11.340 --> 01:13:14.440 And when this show comes out, it's going to be at the end. 01:13:14.440 --> 01:13:18.360 And so if you're listening through the MP3 version of your podcast player, be sure to listen to the end. 01:13:18.580 --> 01:13:19.680 There's gonna be a-- - Get ready to crank 01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:19.920 it up. 01:13:20.280 --> 01:13:21.520 - Yeah, so here's the thing. 01:13:21.660 --> 01:13:24.360 If you like Linkin Park and that style of music, you're gonna love it. 01:13:24.380 --> 01:13:26.420 If you hate Linkin Park, maybe call it a show. 01:13:27.240 --> 01:13:28.640 Anyway, it's gonna be super fun. 01:13:29.220 --> 01:13:31.700 We'll put, let's deploy, or deploy the dream at the end. 01:13:31.740 --> 01:13:33.700 It'll be a great theme song to round things out. 01:13:34.060 --> 01:13:35.540 And with that, Calvin, thanks for being on the show. 01:13:35.780 --> 01:13:36.640 - Awesome, thanks, Michael. 01:13:36.960 --> 01:13:37.320 - Yeah, bye. 01:13:41.140 --> 01:13:41.780 (gentle music) 01:13:41.780 --> 01:13:42.680 (dramatic music) 01:14:11.780 --> 01:14:18.140 Every line in the repo, a key to set us free And now we break through on Talk Python To Me! 01:14:18.740 --> 01:17:01.120 Deploy the dream Shake the ground under your feet Surge forward in the stream Python code is moving heat With Talk Python To Me We ignite the synergy Let's tear down walls, let's own the scene Deploy the dream ♪ Deploy the dream Shake the ground under your feet Search forward in the street ♪ Python code is moving heat ♪ With talk Python to me We ignite the synergy ♪ ♪ Let's tear down walls ♪ ♪ Let's own the scene ♪ ♪ Deploy the dream Shards of GML swirling in the night ♪ ♪ Argo CDs overhead guiding by its light ♪ ♪ We watch the pipeline triggers ♪ ♪ Silent countdown clock ♪ ♪ From dev to prod, we're unstoppable stock ♪ ♪ The logs are rolling in, Prometheus can see ♪ ♪ Our metrics rise like signals, a living symphony ♪ ♪ Mailog sends illusions to the test in the sky ♪ ♪ While Sentry's capturing errors with an all-seeing eye ♪ ♪ We commit, we build, we test once more ♪ ♪ Containers racing onward to the cloud's front door ♪ ♪ Resilience in the code, watch the pods come free ♪ ♪ The stage is set now on top, Python to May Deploy the dream Shatter limits that confine A brand new scheme Pushing progress down the line We're unstoppable now Calvin's leading strategy Let's break the mold, let's rewrite souls Deploy the dream Deploy the cap Offtense beat and build dealing intensity ♪ I see the server lights blinking in the distance ♪ ♪ Code commits illusion smashing with persistence ♪ ♪ Dive deep into the backlog we're forging the path ♪ ♪ Docker image at the ready time to feel the wrath ♪ ♪ Python in my veins blueprint on the screen ♪ ♪ Dev to stage to prod no in between ♪ ♪ We scale up, scale out then break the routine ♪ ♪ This is talk Python to me ♪ ♪ A new reality ♪ Toss the girls belt, belt them ♪ ♪ No code left behind ♪ ♪ We share the knowledge so all devs can find ♪ ♪ A way to unify the spark ♪ ♪ A chance to break free ♪ ♪ Join Calvin, Hendrix, Parker ♪ ♪ Let's make history ♪ Deploy the dream ♪ ♪ High voltage in our core Evolve the theme We're unstoppable once more ♪ Untalk Python to me ♪ ♪ Our voices ring in synergy ♪ Now let's ascend ♪ ♪ Let's set this free ♪ I dream 01:17:01.120 --> 01:17:01.900 the 01:17:01.900 --> 01:17:02.400 dream 01:17:28.400 --> 01:17:30.820 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 01:17:31.540 --> 01:17:32.600 Thank you to our sponsors. 01:17:32.980 --> 01:17:34.300 Be sure to check out what they're offering. 01:17:34.400 --> 01:17:35.660 It really helps support the show. 01:17:36.460 --> 01:17:40.260 This episode is sponsored by Posit Connect from the makers of Shiny. 01:17:40.900 --> 01:17:44.800 Publish, share, and deploy all of your data projects that you're creating using Python. 01:17:45.280 --> 01:17:51.440 Streamlit, Dash, Shiny, Bokeh, FastAPI, Flask, Quarto, Reports, Dashboards, and APIs. 01:17:52.240 --> 01:17:53.860 Posit Connect supports all of them. 01:17:54.120 --> 01:17:59.480 Try Posit Connect for free by going to talkpython.fm/posit, P-O-S-I-T. 01:18:00.300 --> 01:18:11.780 This episode is brought to you by my new book, "Talk Python in Production." 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You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, the Google play feed at /play and the direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm. We're live streaming most of our recordings these days. If you want to be part of the show and have your comments featured on the air, be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at talkpython.fm/youtube. 01:19:07.100 --> 01:19:07.580 This 01:19:07.580 --> 01:19:12.920 is your host Michael Kennedy. Thanks so much for listening. I really appreciate it. Now get out there and write some Python code.