WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:04.360 Do you have kids? Maybe you have nieces or nephews? Or do you work in a school environment? 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:08.020 Maybe it's just friends who know you're a programmer and ask about how they should go 00:00:08.020 --> 00:00:13.820 about introducing programming concepts to their kids. Anna-Lena Popkes is back on the show to 00:00:13.820 --> 00:00:19.880 share her research on when and how to teach kids programming. We spend the second half of this 00:00:19.880 --> 00:00:25.320 episode talking about concrete apps and toys you might consider for each age group. Plus, 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:33.480 some of these are fun for adults too. This is Talk Python To Me, episode 478, recorded August 8th, 00:00:33.480 --> 00:00:52.800 2024. Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python. This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:00:52.800 --> 00:00:58.060 Follow me on Mastodon where I'm @mkennedy and follow the podcast using @talkpython, 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:04.120 both accounts over at fosstodon.org. And keep up with the show and listen to over nine years of 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:09.840 episodes at talkpython.fm. If you want to be part of our live episodes, you can find the live streams 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:15.660 over on YouTube. Subscribe to our YouTube channel over at talkpython.fm/youtube and get notified 00:01:15.660 --> 00:01:22.000 about upcoming shows. This episode is brought to you by WorkOS. If you're building a B2B SaaS app, 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:26.620 at some point your customers will start asking for enterprise features like SAML authentication, 00:01:26.620 --> 00:01:32.840 SKIM provisioning, audit logs, and fine-grained authorization. WorkOS helps ship enterprise 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:37.860 features on day one without slowing down your core product development. Find out more at 00:01:37.860 --> 00:01:45.040 Talk Python.fm slash WorkOS. And it's brought to you by us over at Talk Python Training. Did you know 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:51.720 that we have over 270 hours of Python courses? Yeah, that's right. Check them out at talkpython.fm 00:01:51.720 --> 00:01:57.380 slash courses. Anna Lena, welcome back to Talk Python. It's awesome to have you here. 00:01:57.380 --> 00:01:58.740 Yeah, thanks for having me again. 00:01:58.740 --> 00:02:04.280 Yeah, it's always fun to have you on. You've got interesting and playful topics. I think the very 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:08.480 first time that you were on the show, I can't remember how many years ago, but it's been a little 00:02:08.480 --> 00:02:13.960 while, was to talk about learning Python through Harry Potter. Is that right? In the magical universe. 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:15.840 Yeah, I still love that project a lot. 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:20.820 Yeah, people can find that on GitHub and they obviously can find that episode on talkpython.fm. 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:44.460 But we're back for, I would say, another playful episode in a sense, right? Continuing the theme. I'm going to talk about when should you teach kids to program? And maybe even more importantly, what are some age appropriate resources that spans a good chunk of what a kid's life is? You know, like a kid, not a kid at 18. I don't know. But lower than that, a lot of resources. 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:44.980 Exactly. 00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:52.800 Yeah, so that's going to be a lot of fun. It has been a while since you've been on the show, though. So just a quick introduction about who you are and what you do for everyone listening. 00:02:52.800 --> 00:03:10.720 Yeah, actually, not much has changed since the last episode. I think that was on Python packaging. I'm still a senior machine learning engineer at a German company called InnoVex, where I jump from project to project. I'm currently working at the speech recognition team at Bubble still. Was that last time as well? I'm not sure. 00:03:10.720 --> 00:03:11.480 I think so. I believe so. 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:29.880 Yes. Yeah, I'm still there in the project. I love it. It's a very interesting topic. And yeah, I love Python. We have talked about different topics over the years. And this time it's on children. And talk I prepared for PyData and the PyCon here in Germany. And it was lots of fun to learn about it. 00:03:29.880 --> 00:03:31.880 Yeah, it looks like you did a lot of research. 00:03:31.880 --> 00:03:32.560 I did. 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:57.880 To go into this. And I think it's probably worth pointing out that we both are parents. And so we have some interest in this topics, you know, close to home as well. My kids are getting a little bit older for any of this kind of guidance. But still, you know, a lot of things I thought about as they were growing up. And some of these things we're going to talk about, I've actually used, you know, before I saw them on your list as well, which is cool. But yeah, it's a personal topic, I suppose. 00:03:57.880 --> 00:04:12.820 Yeah, absolutely. For me, it's also personal, because I did not have any coding opportunities growing up myself. I really want this to be different for children growing up now and my own kids. That's also a reason why I wanted to do the research. So that would be just different. 00:04:12.880 --> 00:04:32.880 Let me know what you think. I feel like there are social stigmas, like this person should be a coder, and that person shouldn't be a coder, they should go do something else. And that may or may not be around gender, but often it is, unfortunately. But when you're six years old, you don't care. You like games, you want to play a game, you want to explore things are interesting, right? 00:04:32.880 --> 00:04:41.820 So I feel like this kind of stuff also has a big opportunity to short circuit these unnecessary influences, I guess, depending on different cultures. 00:04:41.820 --> 00:04:52.740 And also just having it in your environment, if there's like a person in your family or your friend circle, or even at school, and you have some opportunity to learn about it, it helps a lot. 00:04:52.840 --> 00:05:02.860 For me, it just wasn't a topic ever. And I still remember my parents, when I told them that I was switched to computer science in my graduate degree, they were like, are you sure you want to do that? 00:05:02.860 --> 00:05:16.580 Isn't that like very nerdy, techie stuff? And I'm so happy I did the switch, even though it was quite hard in the beginning, but it's an amazing topic. And there's so much cool stuff to do. It's just not only the nerdy stuff. 00:05:16.580 --> 00:05:22.960 It's always got something new. That's both the benefit and the curse of it. What you've learned is powerful and helpful, but there's more to learn. 00:05:22.960 --> 00:05:27.600 Yeah, always. But that makes like keeps it interesting, right? You never get bored. 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:29.520 Exactly. Especially when JavaScript. 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:37.700 Okay, so I feel like as your parents had that thought, you know, probably one thing they may have thought, I know, obviously, I don't know them. 00:05:37.700 --> 00:05:46.320 But a lot of people would think is that's a very antisocial sort of thing, right? Like, oh, you're going into programming, that means you're gonna sit behind a computer screen. 00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:51.020 Completely alone and not talk to people. And I think that's one of the misconceptions of programming. 00:05:51.020 --> 00:06:05.200 Yeah, absolutely. Even now, when I'm working remotely, most of the time, I have so many meetings and collaborations with other developers. And I don't ever feel not part of my team, even if I don't see them, because we interact so much. 00:06:05.580 --> 00:06:10.080 Sometimes they sit on a completely different continent, and it still feels very close. 00:06:10.080 --> 00:06:16.580 And we do love and we don't only pair code, but we like, yeah, you get to know them well. 00:06:16.580 --> 00:06:23.120 And it's lots of fun, interesting people that are not the stereotype of coders at all. 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:24.040 Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:30.360 I bring that up because I think some people listening might be attracted to the show who don't necessarily work as programmers themselves, you know? 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:33.740 I can very, like, I can recommend it a lot. I think it's a lot of fun. 00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:34.240 Absolutely. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.780 All right. Well, we talked about some of the reasons that we're interested in this, obviously. 00:06:40.280 --> 00:06:50.000 But why? I mean, as people who like programming, we may want to communicate or share that thing we like with other kids, with our kids and so on. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:57.360 But I think programming also can stand in for a lot of more traditional things, such as, like, geometry and so on. 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:01.360 Yeah, I think what I like most about it is that you can really make things. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:04.200 You can see them come alive and it can be a game. 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:07.080 It can be something more math related. 00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:09.120 It can be music, websites. 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:15.700 You can just create anything that you're interested in and even have so much fun seeing it come to life. 00:07:15.700 --> 00:07:26.600 So it's not just learning a skill, maybe for a job or your life at home or your hobbies, but it's more of like being able to create anything that you're interested in. 00:07:26.900 --> 00:07:37.240 And then, of course, you have the obvious advantages like the career opportunities and lots of skills that are taught by learning how to code that you do not think about in the beginning, I guess. 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:38.100 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:46.340 The realism or I've created something I can see, even though it's still digital and virtual and you can't actually touch it usually unless it's like robotic or something. 00:07:46.340 --> 00:07:59.520 But that's so much more realistic and interactive than things like, oh, you're going to learn these axioms and then we're going to teach you how to, you know, prove stuff about angles and triangles with these axioms. 00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:01.080 It's going to teach you logical thinking. 00:08:01.080 --> 00:08:09.740 So, you know, sit down for the year and we're going to talk about small angles, big angles, diagonal, cross connected, all that kind of stuff. 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:09.920 Right. 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:13.880 Which is a little bit useful, but being able to work with computers is way more. 00:08:13.880 --> 00:08:19.200 And I think it teaches these problem solving and computational thinking skills at least as well. 00:08:19.200 --> 00:08:19.920 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:32.720 Especially what you said, like problem solving, logical thinking that kids, like not only adults, but kids especially, they understand that you have might have a complex problem you want to solve, but you can break it down into simpler steps. 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:38.200 Like what an algorithm is actually doing, giving you a step by step path to reaching a goal. 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:49.620 You can teach that not only by coding, also, of course, by just playing and seeing you want to build this huge Lego piece, but you start building it with little pieces and put it all together. 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.460 And that's also what you have in coding. 00:08:51.460 --> 00:08:52.660 You want to reach a goal. 00:08:52.660 --> 00:08:58.940 You want to program a game or maybe create an animation and you understand how to break it down. 00:08:58.940 --> 00:09:02.340 It helps us or also kids to make more structured decisions. 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:07.280 I think that's a very valuable skill to learn, not only for coding, but for everyday life, I guess. 00:09:07.280 --> 00:09:08.960 You want to break problems down and solve them. 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:09.300 It helps. 00:09:09.300 --> 00:09:10.640 That's like adulthood right there. 00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:16.420 What I also find really helpful is one of the skills I looked at specifically is perseverance. 00:09:16.420 --> 00:09:19.460 Also for kids, they get frustrated so easily. 00:09:19.660 --> 00:09:22.060 And give up and say like, this is not working. 00:09:22.060 --> 00:09:22.940 I don't like this. 00:09:22.940 --> 00:09:23.840 Like, I hate this. 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:25.940 And start throwing their toys around. 00:09:25.940 --> 00:09:27.520 At least we are at this stage. 00:09:27.520 --> 00:09:30.360 Your kids are probably not doing that anymore. 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:35.280 But yeah, I think with coding, when you encourage them to keep going, 00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:40.340 even or especially when they fail, that they understand that failure isn't something bad, 00:09:40.340 --> 00:09:42.460 but rather it keeps you improving. 00:09:42.460 --> 00:09:49.600 It keeps you going and that you can learn to see challenges or problems at something positive 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:51.620 and something you can grow with. 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:56.560 I think that's really, really great about coding because you will have that a lot when you learn 00:09:56.560 --> 00:09:57.080 how to code. 00:09:57.300 --> 00:09:58.940 Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:02.940 In the problem, this perseverance skill is incredibly important. 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:03.620 I agree. 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:06.780 It manifests itself a little bit differently as they get older. 00:10:06.780 --> 00:10:10.740 Instead of going, I dislike this, you know, like these are those toys crap. 00:10:10.740 --> 00:10:12.420 I can't make it do its thing or whatever. 00:10:12.420 --> 00:10:14.700 It's more, I can't do this. 00:10:14.700 --> 00:10:15.860 I'm not good at this. 00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:20.440 And a really important skill, I think, is not, I can't do this. 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.200 Like, I need to work at being good at this. 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:25.080 And that perseverance that you learn. 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:29.700 Honestly, I think one of the very most important skills that people can have as a programmer 00:10:29.700 --> 00:10:33.160 or in software development in general is perseverance. 00:10:33.160 --> 00:10:34.420 Like, it doesn't work. 00:10:34.420 --> 00:10:35.200 I read the docs. 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:36.320 It still doesn't work. 00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:37.620 I read Stack Overflow. 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:38.540 People were mean. 00:10:38.540 --> 00:10:39.520 Still didn't help me. 00:10:39.520 --> 00:10:42.080 But eventually, I worked my way and now it works. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:44.800 And it's such a cool feeling to work through those things. 00:10:44.800 --> 00:10:49.060 But until you learn the perseverance, you just think, well, I wasn't good at math. 00:10:49.060 --> 00:10:50.080 I must not be good at programming. 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:50.500 I'm out. 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:50.720 Yeah. 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:55.980 I think that keeps a lot from a lot of children to learn or to like learning things that are 00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:56.280 hard. 00:10:56.280 --> 00:11:00.980 Lots of kids struggle with math and yes, like STEM classes. 00:11:00.980 --> 00:11:06.340 But I think it's often because they feel like I don't understand this might also not be explained 00:11:06.340 --> 00:11:10.540 in the best way, but they just shut down and say, okay, I'm just not going to try. 00:11:10.540 --> 00:11:16.760 And if you understand and maybe also, I know that there's this huge psychological research 00:11:16.760 --> 00:11:24.180 on growth mindset that you understand that you shouldn't praise just an outcome, but rather 00:11:24.180 --> 00:11:27.320 the effort that kids try to do something. 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:32.620 They try to improve and put in the work that that's just so much more important than reaching 00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:33.620 the goal in the end. 00:11:33.860 --> 00:11:33.920 Yeah. 00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:34.140 Yeah. 00:11:34.140 --> 00:11:40.580 We can really help our kids to become more robust and more joyful about learning by 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:44.220 teaching these principles, for example, through learning how to code. 00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:48.900 This portion of Talk By The Namedy is brought to you by WorkOS. 00:11:48.900 --> 00:11:53.320 If you're building a B2B SaaS app, at some point, your customers will start asking for 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:59.020 enterprise 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consider 00:12:37.300 --> 00:12:38.220 using WorkOS. 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:42.380 Integrate in minutes and start shipping enterprise plans today. 00:12:42.380 --> 00:12:45.680 Just visit talkpython.fm/workOS. 00:12:45.680 --> 00:12:47.680 The link is in your podcast player show notes. 00:12:47.680 --> 00:12:49.900 Thank you to WorkOS for supporting the show. 00:12:49.900 --> 00:12:56.100 Now, you did give this as this topic as a talk at PyData. 00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:57.080 Was that PyData Berlin? 00:12:57.080 --> 00:12:57.620 Where was it? 00:12:57.620 --> 00:13:03.260 And I gave it once at PyData London and at PyCon Berlin and at Europy. 00:13:03.260 --> 00:13:03.720 Okay. 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:04.160 Yeah. 00:13:04.220 --> 00:13:08.540 So the reason I was going to bring that up is you had some really cool pictures. 00:13:08.540 --> 00:13:09.840 Yeah, I know. 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:15.640 You'd come up with and like a little persistent kid working away there and stuff like that, 00:13:15.640 --> 00:13:15.800 right? 00:13:15.800 --> 00:13:16.720 Oh, I loved them. 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:17.660 I loved creating them. 00:13:17.660 --> 00:13:20.120 I used Deli 3 to create them. 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:24.660 And I spent so much time just playing around with a model and providing it prompts to see 00:13:24.660 --> 00:13:26.580 which images I liked best. 00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:30.780 Of course, there were the obvious problems with some of them that the kids had six fingers 00:13:30.780 --> 00:13:31.620 and so on. 00:13:31.620 --> 00:13:35.140 But still, it was amazing to create these images. 00:13:35.140 --> 00:13:37.060 And I loved the Perseverance one. 00:13:37.060 --> 00:13:41.520 And we can link the article to my blog later where you can see the image. 00:13:41.520 --> 00:13:44.300 It's just everyone laughs when they see the picture. 00:13:44.560 --> 00:13:45.420 Yeah, the pictures are great. 00:13:45.420 --> 00:13:46.140 The pictures are great. 00:13:46.140 --> 00:13:46.420 All right. 00:13:46.420 --> 00:13:52.540 Let's talk for a minute about brain development and maybe the different stages that kids go 00:13:52.540 --> 00:13:57.820 through because there's kind of four or five stages, which then you might map over to the 00:13:57.820 --> 00:13:59.840 different types of resources that we're going to talk about. 00:13:59.840 --> 00:14:01.900 Yeah, I think that's a really important topic to consider. 00:14:01.900 --> 00:14:06.300 If you want to understand when your child is able to do certain things, then you need to 00:14:06.300 --> 00:14:11.440 be able to understand how their brain develops because our brain matures over time. 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:15.320 It's not fully mature at birth, but quite the opposite. 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:20.820 And some regions of the brain take more time to develop and some like vision and hearing are 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:22.540 quite well developed already at birth. 00:14:22.540 --> 00:14:29.960 So at certain ages, it does make sense to start coding, for example, from zero to four. 00:14:29.960 --> 00:14:35.880 And there is not much there for them to really have the cognitive abilities to understand 00:14:35.880 --> 00:14:40.280 computational principles or really sit down and concentrate and focus. 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:46.140 Yeah, for example, at birth, you have quite a lot of neurons already, but just 25% of the 00:14:46.140 --> 00:14:46.960 adult size brain. 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.820 And when you reach the age of four, you already have 80%. 00:14:49.820 --> 00:14:53.180 So it has grown a lot through the first four years. 00:14:53.180 --> 00:14:57.600 And you do have a lot of influence as a parent or caregiver, friend, whatever. 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:04.160 Mostly the primitive areas of the brain develop first, like hearing, vision, emotional regulation 00:15:04.160 --> 00:15:10.560 starts developing, but really cognitive and executive functions like planning and so on come later. 00:15:10.560 --> 00:15:14.960 So I guess zero to four years would be or birth would be the first stage. 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:20.720 And then zero to four years where you have lots of things happening and you can influence that 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:28.220 by positive influences from like responsive caregiving, that you have diverse learning experiences and 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:33.720 playing with a child. And then at four years, it gets starts getting interesting. And that's also 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:40.660 where you can start doing things with your kid. Like, do you want to rather talk about the 00:15:40.660 --> 00:15:42.440 development first and then about... 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:45.200 Maybe we should talk about the resources that go with each stage. What do you think? 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:45.500 Yeah. 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:47.280 Yeah, let's do that. So yeah, I do too. 00:15:47.420 --> 00:15:53.120 Since we already reached age four now. Oh yeah, nice. Yeah. So at age four, you can teach basic 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:58.520 algorithmic thinking. You can ask questions like, what would you do to guide a lost puppy home? Just 00:15:58.520 --> 00:16:05.560 making them start to think about how to break down problems into smaller steps. But also they have 00:16:05.560 --> 00:16:11.600 the motor skills at that age and the perceptual abilities to interact with simple toys that teach 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:17.080 the basics of coding. And you open the BeeBot, which is a tiny floor robot, or I guess it's not so 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:23.540 tiny. It's a Bee and it has four directions to go. Front, back, right, left. I think it can remember 00:16:23.540 --> 00:16:31.880 up to 130 commands and you can press go and program the way it's supposed to crawl or walk, however you 00:16:31.880 --> 00:16:32.600 want to phrase it. 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:37.820 Yeah. So one thing you might do with this thing is... So this is a little robot that has wheels. 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:42.760 It looks like a Bee. What you do is you push the buttons like forward, forward, right, forward, 00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:46.740 left, forward, forward. And you might put out something on the ground, like a little 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:53.200 like, can you make your Bee go around this thing and then through this little gate or whatever, 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:54.900 right? Those kinds of challenges. 00:16:54.900 --> 00:17:00.740 I think even when you purchase them, you can purchase rucks that have certain paths on them 00:17:00.740 --> 00:17:02.200 and so on. I guess it's a very... 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:02.940 Right. 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:09.460 You can spend a lot of money on these kinds of toys. But maybe as a side note, if you start looking, 00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:15.520 you will find tons of robots in different price ranges. So I guess we will only mention examples. 00:17:15.520 --> 00:17:20.120 But if you start looking, you will definitely find lots of different options. 00:17:20.120 --> 00:17:25.800 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Would you say that this RoboTurtles game falls into the same category? 00:17:25.800 --> 00:17:27.180 Or is that a little bit older? 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:31.700 Oh, I'm not sure from the top of my head if it's older. What I like about it is that it's a board 00:17:31.700 --> 00:17:36.360 game. So that's... I'm always asked about screen-free offers. So something that you can play 00:17:36.360 --> 00:17:42.220 without sitting in front of the laptop because screen time is just a general huge discussion 00:17:42.220 --> 00:17:44.100 point. I would have to look up. 00:17:44.100 --> 00:17:48.080 So if I... Yeah, looking at the box here, it says ages four and up. So probably. 00:17:48.080 --> 00:17:49.900 Oh, nice. That's really cool. Yeah. 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:54.700 Yeah. So this one is... I think it's almost exactly the same problem. There's a little bit 00:17:54.700 --> 00:17:59.720 more to it because there's a couple of challenges in the board game. So I think we actually have this 00:17:59.720 --> 00:18:04.800 board game from when my daughter was young. And you have a little turtle, which is a card and a board, 00:18:04.800 --> 00:18:09.420 and you can put stuff on the board like little rocks. It's... It can't go through. Maybe there's 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:14.220 like an ice wall and it has ability to like melt the ice, but it has to do that before it can move 00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:18.240 forward. You know, so you get a bunch of cards and you put them in a stack and then you like 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:23.140 play them out to see if your turtle wins the game or something like that. So this is another 00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:26.940 pretty good option at that age, especially if you want something not electronic. 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:31.660 What I also like about it is that it becomes a family activity that you learn. That's just in 00:18:31.660 --> 00:18:36.680 general, a very good thing if you want to teach your kids how to code, that you make learning a fun 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:42.380 activity and playing games, being with them, showing interest and yeah, having fun doing it 00:18:42.380 --> 00:18:48.480 like as part of gaming or what you do at home, playing board games. That's just a very easy way 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.860 then to get started and to get them interesting. I should point out like the actual Robot Turtles 00:18:52.860 --> 00:18:59.560 website has a bad SSL certificate right now. So I'm sure you can find it on like Amazon and other places, 00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:05.740 but it's... Yeah, I'm sure. Okay. So what else? Another one you talked about is Cubelets, 00:19:05.740 --> 00:19:09.440 but this field, I guess, might be a little bit older. Cubelets, it's... Well, you can start 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:14.840 early with them, but you can also use them at a later stage because you can program them using 00:19:14.840 --> 00:19:21.480 visual coding languages or one of them may code, but you can start quite early. These like Cubelets 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:27.300 are small physical blocks. As you can see there that you just plug together and some of them move, 00:19:27.300 --> 00:19:33.600 some have cameras or sensors, and you can build lots of cool, unique robots with them. And if you start 00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:40.140 looking at demos on YouTube, it's really amazing how cool they can look, the end robot. I think one 00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:46.720 disadvantage of this is that it's quite expensive. So one of these blocks is about 50 euros or maybe 00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:54.160 $45, $50. So if you want to build big robots and have lots of options, then you need to invest quite a 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:54.700 bit of money. 00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:58.160 Yeah. I like that the website says free shipping on orders over 50. It's like, 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.740 okay, pretty much anything. It sounds like. 00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:07.320 Yeah, I guess. But I still, I still, I love it because it makes you like be creative, 00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:12.520 especially having this aspect that you can program them later on using MakeCode. That's one of the 00:20:12.520 --> 00:20:17.900 visual programming language. I think that's the run for Microsoft. You can keep using them over a long 00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:18.660 period of time. 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:23.960 Yeah. For maybe a mental model for people who haven't seen these in action, because even look 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.780 in the website, you don't know, like, what do I do with these things again? Why are they here? I feel 00:20:27.780 --> 00:20:32.060 like they should have maybe a little animation or something, but there's these cubes as the name 00:20:32.060 --> 00:20:38.640 would imply, but they're almost like Lego blocks that each block is programmable. And then you combine 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.940 them into a thing that does stuff, right? 00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:42.060 I think you explained it well. 00:20:42.060 --> 00:20:47.160 Yeah. Thanks. So I think that that's pretty interesting, but this is probably in the next stage, 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:50.620 right? The next stage would be maybe six to nine. What do you think? 00:20:50.620 --> 00:20:55.880 Yeah, exactly. I think the next stage regarding development would be around six to nine. Of course, 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:01.860 you also always have to mention it's, this is now for normally developing children. It's just an 00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:07.000 average. Every child is different. So if you observe your child, you know, which skills develop at what 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:12.960 point and what might be easier for them, what is harder. So this is not like hard ranges, but yeah, 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:19.760 if you start with about six years of age, you can start using visual programming tools because kids 00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:25.380 become more used to using technology. They have a better hand eye coordination. And also one very 00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:31.060 important part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, it's like the CEO of our brain, has a big growth spurt 00:21:31.060 --> 00:21:37.840 between five and eight. And this improves working memory, planning, attention, and all kinds of mechanisms 00:21:37.840 --> 00:21:43.540 that you need to start really sitting down and code. And you already opened Scratch Junior. 00:21:43.540 --> 00:21:50.960 Yeah. And Scratch Junior is, I think Scratch is quite popular, one of the most popular visual coding 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:56.060 languages. And Scratch Junior is just a simplified version of it for very young children starting at 00:21:56.060 --> 00:22:06.540 five to seven. So it has no text, but rather actions like movement. And visual programming in general, 00:22:06.540 --> 00:22:12.800 you have puzzle pieces to represent concepts like loops usually, or I don't know, variables, 00:22:12.800 --> 00:22:18.900 logical expressions, and you can plug them together. So you don't have to worry about syntax or using the 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:24.120 command line. You just create these programs by putting together puzzle pieces. So that's, 00:22:24.120 --> 00:22:29.400 and that happens on a visual interface. So that's what visual programming is about. 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:36.320 And Scratch Junior is just a very simple version. I think it's just a free app you can play on tablet 00:22:36.320 --> 00:22:40.660 and create little programs where the characters move around and do things. 00:22:40.660 --> 00:22:46.440 Kind of like the bee, but you more look a little closer to real programming, but then you see the output, 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:46.720 right? 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:52.960 Yeah. And you start really using, I guess, these plug-in principles that you have the blocks that you put 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.760 together. So when you go on to, for example, Scratch or another of the visual programming languages, 00:22:57.760 --> 00:23:01.620 you're already, you have knowledge about how it works in general, I guess. 00:23:01.620 --> 00:23:06.040 As I look at this website, I was thinking, you know, when I think about coding, I think about 00:23:06.040 --> 00:23:14.260 computers, Mac, Windows, whatever, with apps. But obviously, young kids are way more in tune with 00:23:14.260 --> 00:23:17.740 touch devices like iPads and Android tablets and stuff, right? 00:23:17.740 --> 00:23:23.380 It's amazing how quickly they adapt and learn it. I think it's quite, sometimes I'm blown away by how 00:23:23.380 --> 00:23:28.800 young children can already understand how to swipe and select stuff on a touch screen. 00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:34.620 I think actually it probably lowers the age by quite a bit that kids are able to do this kind of stuff 00:23:34.620 --> 00:23:37.640 because these touch interfaces exist in decent ways. 00:23:37.780 --> 00:23:42.680 Yeah, absolutely. Just learning how to type is actually one of the main reasons why you can 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:48.920 only start with textual programming later because typing is hard. You need to learn how to do it. 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.940 Just touching and dragging and dropping is much easier. 00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:57.420 When my older kids were very young, we wanted to have them work with things like this and just 00:23:57.420 --> 00:24:01.380 learn how to use computers. And they, this predated the iPhone, like it didn't exist. 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:07.880 There was no meaningful touch screens that really you would want to use. And so we got like, kind of like you get a 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:13.620 typing program to learn to touch type. We got a mousing program and there was like a little airplane and they 00:24:13.620 --> 00:24:18.920 had to like chase the airplane around with the mouse to learn how the eye hand coordination of mouse and then like 00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:25.240 screen, right? When you're three or four years old, like that's not natural, right? But touching, they already be all over that. 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:33.460 I think sometimes it's even too intuitive for them that it starts having like having a very huge influence 00:24:33.460 --> 00:24:36.360 on them way too early, but I guess that's a different discussion. 00:24:36.360 --> 00:24:40.660 Yeah, that's a different problem. That sends you back to a robot turtle board game. 00:24:40.660 --> 00:24:41.900 Yeah, exactly. 00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:48.700 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by us. I mentioned at the top of the show that we have a 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:54.820 wide range of courses focusing on core topics such as getting started with Python and advanced ones like 00:24:54.820 --> 00:25:01.280 APIs, async programming, and deep diving into Python's memory management and more. 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Now back to the show. 00:25:58.060 --> 00:26:04.820 A little bit later, we could do, once you start doing this, some kind of programming language, 00:26:04.820 --> 00:26:10.800 then that opens up a bunch of resources, right? So obviously Scratch is sort of the way more full 00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:14.080 featured version of Scratch and Junior. That's pretty neat. 00:26:14.080 --> 00:26:19.680 Yeah, I think Scratch is amazing because I think for kids, it's great. I know lots of adults that still 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.260 use it for some projects where you really want to make it come alive because Scratch is focused on 00:26:25.260 --> 00:26:35.440 having really cool, interactive, fun projects. They have sounds, music, you can add graphics, and it just 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:41.460 offers a lot of functionality to create your project, share them with friends. And there is a ton of 00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:48.040 resources on learning Scratch. And as you can see here, like make music, create a story, create a 00:26:48.040 --> 00:26:53.640 character. I guess your possibilities are endless. Yeah, it looks really, actually, I didn't realize all 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:58.420 the stuff they got going on here. They have a bunch of tutorials, free coding community. Super cool. 00:26:58.420 --> 00:27:02.380 Then I guess just while we're talking on these visual programming languages, we could talk about 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:08.400 Blockly, right? Yeah. When I, like I knew Blockly existed, it was also free, like Scratch is also 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:14.020 free. I guess that's important to mention. And Blockly is actually at the basis of most of the 00:27:14.020 --> 00:27:20.200 other visual languages. For example, it is actually like block-based languages like Scratch and MakeCode 00:27:20.200 --> 00:27:26.780 are based on Blockly. Blockly is developed by Google. And with Blockly, it's, I think it's for a bit older 00:27:26.780 --> 00:27:31.940 kids because it's more low level. If you can say that, it offers you more flexibility. 00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:37.640 You see the code next to the blocks. You see it in an editor, how it actually looks like, 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:44.180 and you could copy-paste the code into like a normal editor and run it. It's more low level, 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:50.240 but also somewhat more sophisticated, the editor that you have it more, it looks more like coding 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:51.960 to me than Scratch. 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.340 Maybe the way to think about it, you see this more low level. I would say each block almost 00:27:56.340 --> 00:28:04.400 corresponds to a single symbol of code, almost, right? Like you have a set variable too, then you 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:08.420 put another block on, which is the value. And then, you know, you've got your visual editor, 00:28:08.420 --> 00:28:13.500 but then side by side, you have your JavaScript, or I imagine you could probably see Python or other 00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:16.320 languages if you, there's a dropdown for choosing the output language. 00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:19.880 Yeah. You can use JavaScript, Python, PHP, Lua, or Dart. 00:28:20.040 --> 00:28:23.480 Yeah. So that's kind of getting a little farther up there. And maybe we could talk 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:29.620 a bit about the hardware side, because that's one way that it actually can be something you can touch 00:28:29.620 --> 00:28:31.800 and feel. And as you interact with these ideas, right? 00:28:31.800 --> 00:28:36.840 I know that that's nothing I ever used, but my brother started using it. Like I know that he 00:28:36.840 --> 00:28:42.060 bought a Raspberry Pi. You open now the microbit, which is like a smaller programmable device. 00:28:42.060 --> 00:28:47.860 And the Raspberry Pi would be like full-fledged computer in a tiny device. But yeah, you can 00:28:47.860 --> 00:28:54.720 learn a lot about hardware and also coding by having such devices. And the microbit has displays, 00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:59.220 buttons, sensors, and you can program it using MakeCode, one of the other visual programming 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:05.180 languages. And I think it's quite cheap compared to other devices. Like a Raspberry Pi is, I think it's 00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:12.180 not expensive for having all these abilities or these capabilities, but the microbit is, I guess, 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:16.160 more affordable for lots of people. Oh yeah, nice. There you can see how it works. 00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:22.780 And you know what's really interesting is if you go to makecode.microbit.org, even if you don't have 00:29:22.780 --> 00:29:29.920 one of these devices, it comes with a little emulator and then it has a virtual microbit that you can write 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:36.960 code against. And it gives you an option as well to choose Python or Blockly or some other way of 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:41.100 working with it, which is pretty cool. Exactly. That's also why it's recommended for children, 00:29:41.100 --> 00:29:46.040 like officially it's recommended for children at the age of eight or older. And Blockly, I think, 00:29:46.040 --> 00:29:52.420 is even recommended for kids starting at 10, whereas Scratch is for even younger children, right? They say 00:29:52.420 --> 00:29:57.580 you can get started at eight. And they say what I think, which is funny, they say it's up to 16, 00:29:57.580 --> 00:30:03.120 which doesn't make sense to me. Why would there be an upper limit? But yeah, anyway, you can still 00:30:03.120 --> 00:30:08.820 use it. You have to do C++ now. Yes, exactly. What is great about visual programming is that you can 00:30:08.820 --> 00:30:14.100 always come back to it. It's not that you progress from these robots to visual programming to textual 00:30:14.100 --> 00:30:20.220 programming, but you can use visual programming for doing, I don't know, digital stories and you can 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:25.480 still do textual programming at work. It's just having all these options now is really nice. Yeah, 00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:30.720 absolutely. Let's see. We also have Zumi. Zumi is pretty cool. Let's come back to Zumi. I do want 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:35.500 to talk about something that's like a little bit more real similar to the micro bit first is many of 00:30:35.500 --> 00:30:41.820 the things over at Adafruit. Are you a fan of Adafruit? I don't know Adafruit. Tell me about it. So this is a 00:30:41.820 --> 00:30:49.480 company that creates a whole bunch of small devices like the BBC micro bit that run CircuitPython. There's 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:55.760 just tons and tons of things you can buy. You can buy little sensors and you can buy little 00:30:55.760 --> 00:31:00.960 displays or whatever it is that you're looking for. And there's just many, many little ways to make 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:06.560 these projects a little bit more than a micro bit. So for example, you could get one of these ESP32 00:31:06.560 --> 00:31:13.660 devices, but it has like a little tiny display on it that you can output your text to. And it costs 00:31:13.660 --> 00:31:20.780 $19, which is pretty ridiculous. And they often come with tutorials on how to do it. So if you're 00:31:20.780 --> 00:31:24.260 into this kind of stuff, this is like a perfect place to go look. 00:31:24.260 --> 00:31:29.960 Also, there's just so much opportunity to learn, even for like being the parent, I would learn so 00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:36.380 much from doing this. It would be so valuable to me to learn more about the hardware side of things, 00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:41.880 especially because I would never sit down and buy myself a Raspberry Pi. I don't know why, 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.380 but I wouldn't do it. Just don't find the time. But if I can do it... 00:31:45.380 --> 00:31:46.600 You already have a computer and all that. 00:31:46.600 --> 00:31:51.420 Yeah. And if I can do it together with my children, I think that's just amazing. It's really cool. 00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:56.420 This is just a general thing about learning with kids. If you learn together with them, 00:31:56.420 --> 00:32:01.980 they can also be the expert sometimes, which is amazing for kids. If they can explain something 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:08.660 to you that they understand better, it gives them so much joy and helps them develop this passion and 00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:13.900 love for learning. I think that's a great thing about learning how to code that doesn't matter if 00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:18.700 you are the best coder, but you can just use it as a way to improve yourself. 00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:23.860 Yeah. And once they get that mastery, they're like, oh, now I've gone beyond them. It's probably a 00:32:23.860 --> 00:32:24.440 really good feeling. 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:31.140 If my kids want to learn how to code early, like much earlier than myself, they will become so much 00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:32.980 better than me so quickly. 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:37.300 Yeah, for sure. I have one of these little devices here. You put it in your hand. It's 00:32:37.300 --> 00:32:43.220 certainly smaller than the palm of my hand. And this thing manages the DNS and ad blocking on my 00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:49.300 network. It was like 20 bucks or something. Yeah. There's sort of less playful, more interesting. 00:32:49.300 --> 00:32:52.520 Also just, you know, utilitarian things you can do with these little things. 00:32:52.520 --> 00:32:53.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:58.420 All right. Back to Zoomy, which is in the same age category, I would say. This is like around 10 years 00:32:58.420 --> 00:32:58.980 or so. Yeah. 00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:00.640 But it's more robot-like, right? 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:06.860 Yeah, exactly. Like it's a self-driving car kit. Like it's a small car and it has so many 00:33:06.860 --> 00:33:12.900 capabilities. You can program it using Python and Blockly. You can even teach it about driving 00:33:12.900 --> 00:33:18.620 certain ways by providing your own data sets. So there is a lot of machine learning. Even you can 00:33:18.620 --> 00:33:26.640 teach it. It offers so many capabilities or ways to create projects. At my company, we have done quite 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:31.980 a few workshops with kids with Zoomy and they love doing it. And adults love doing it too. 00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:38.500 Nice. It's like a self-driving car kit. So if you wanted to try to, instead of maybe teaching it, 00:33:38.500 --> 00:33:42.780 you go forward three steps, you turn right, you go forward two steps, you turn left, you teach it. 00:33:42.780 --> 00:33:46.540 If you see a turn left sign, you turn left or something like that, right? 00:33:46.540 --> 00:33:50.080 Exactly. Yeah. It can really understand or analyze its environment. 00:33:50.080 --> 00:33:53.620 Yeah. That's pretty awesome. Okay. And you do events with these? 00:33:53.740 --> 00:33:59.340 Yes. That's also maybe advice for people that want to get started. It's always useful to check 00:33:59.340 --> 00:34:05.300 out local events that happen at companies that are close to where you live or universities. They do 00:34:05.300 --> 00:34:10.660 offer a lot of free, often offer free workshops for kids where you can sign them up to learn about 00:34:10.660 --> 00:34:18.120 robotics or coding. And it's can be like an easy way to get them started if you find it hard to do it 00:34:18.120 --> 00:34:24.780 yourself. Yeah. I think a lot, at least in the U S there's quite a few programs for like summer teen 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:31.420 programs that do like either 3d printing or, you know, coding with, you know, Lego robots or whatever. 00:34:31.420 --> 00:34:33.800 So there's a lot of summer camps and that type of things. 00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:39.200 Yeah. I guess that's very big in the U S and Germany. I think not so much, maybe it's growing, 00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:46.240 but yeah, you can definitely spend a lot of time doing it. And I know that like we at our company, 00:34:46.240 --> 00:34:53.740 we sometimes offer day workshops where you can just start getting to know about a topic or just play 00:34:53.740 --> 00:34:57.780 around with things, becoming kids interested in the topic in the first place. 00:34:57.980 --> 00:35:02.420 Yeah. That's really neat. Last in the category of hardware here, you already mentioned it though, 00:35:02.420 --> 00:35:07.400 is a Raspberry Pi, which I guess is a little closer to just a real computer, right? 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:13.540 Yeah. It's a really powerful device. So it's basically a very small and cheap computer that 00:35:13.540 --> 00:35:19.280 runs Linux, but you can use it to learn coding, but you can also build hardware projects with it, 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:25.240 do home automation, learn about the internet of things, but it's recommended for kids starting at 11 00:35:25.240 --> 00:35:30.320 years. So quite a bit older because you need programming. This maybe also shifts over to the 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:37.820 next age range, namely when your kids have typing skills and also a more well-developed cognitive 00:35:37.820 --> 00:35:44.700 abilities and the prefrontal cortex, which I talked about the CEO of the brain, the development starts 00:35:44.700 --> 00:35:50.460 to mature and stabilize. So planning, organizing, thinking abstractly, all these skills become more 00:35:50.460 --> 00:35:55.140 fully developed. And you of course need the typing skills to get started with textual coding. 00:35:55.140 --> 00:36:01.880 So at the age nine plus, most of the time you can get started with these things, for example, 00:36:01.880 --> 00:36:08.020 with like programming Raspberry Pi or just more traditional textual programming languages. 00:36:08.020 --> 00:36:13.940 The typing skills is pretty, pretty interesting. I think one that I, you talked about before, 00:36:13.940 --> 00:36:19.800 but I think is also super interesting as a gateway to this. This is the best one that I know. Maybe 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.900 people know of others as well is code combat. 00:36:22.900 --> 00:36:26.360 You did a podcast episode on that years ago, right? 00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:31.200 This is one of the ones, like my daughter and I both subscribed to this for a while when she was 00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:35.540 younger. We'd go through and we did, I don't know, like, can't remember. I think she did 30 or 40 00:36:35.540 --> 00:36:40.040 code challenges through there or something like that, which was pretty awesome. And I also had the 00:36:40.040 --> 00:36:41.920 guys on the show. Yeah. It's been a little while. 00:36:42.040 --> 00:36:46.720 Yeah, it has been, but it's still, I think it's an amazing resource. So you, a code combat is about 00:36:46.720 --> 00:36:52.320 learning how to code through gaming. So you play a game from beginning to end. And while you play the 00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:57.740 game, you learn to code in Python or JavaScript. I think there are several languages, but you really 00:36:57.740 --> 00:37:03.640 do textual programming. And if your kid likes gaming, or this is something that makes it easier for them to 00:37:03.640 --> 00:37:08.240 get started with coding, it's an amazing resource, even though you have to pay for it because you're 00:37:08.240 --> 00:37:13.640 really guided through the course. You can have lessons. You can even have, I think, teacher 00:37:13.640 --> 00:37:17.580 lessons once or twice a week, dependent on your subscription plan. 00:37:17.580 --> 00:37:22.960 Yeah. I think there might be a free tier if you tell it you're a student, but you can only do certain 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:28.840 challenges. Like for example, see this, there's like a locks here and it says, I think, yeah, I have to 00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:33.140 subscribe to this if I want to do all, if I want to solve all the puzzles, but there's some of them you 00:37:33.140 --> 00:37:37.540 can do for free, I believe. I don't feel like we had to pay at the beginning, but they could have 00:37:37.540 --> 00:37:42.760 changed the model. I also played around with it. At least in the beginning, you can try it out for free. 00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:46.980 What I really like about this, you know, so if you click on, if you go to this, you click on the things, 00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:52.120 it says for this challenge, you're going to learn arguments and syntax. Or if you come over here and you 00:37:52.120 --> 00:37:57.420 click on this one, it'll say you'll learn while loops or whatever, but then it gives you just a nice 00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:03.880 simple challenge. So it, but what's cool, I'll know in order to play that one, I got to, can I play this one? 00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:09.200 Yeah, here you go. So you have this character and what's, oh my gosh, it made that very large. 00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:14.220 What's really cool though, is when you, it gives you a little hint, but the editor, here's what I 00:38:14.220 --> 00:38:19.520 think is special about Code Combat. The editor is auto-complete like you have never seen. 00:38:19.520 --> 00:38:24.340 You know what I mean? So it says, all right, what you need to do is build a fence and you have a hero 00:38:24.340 --> 00:38:31.280 and the hero has the ability to say build at X, Y position, or it could move. And if I just type the 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:39.020 letter D, it'll auto-complete like hero dot move down. Or if I say hero build X, Y, it automatically 00:38:39.020 --> 00:38:44.940 puts in all the, it's, so if you can type just a couple of characters, it'll keep the syntax, you know, 00:38:44.940 --> 00:38:50.480 like the spacing for indentation and block definitions. And all of that kind of stuff is 00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:56.820 ridiculous for how you don't even have to really have the right syntax. You just have to put a little 00:38:56.820 --> 00:39:02.800 bit of some kind of word in there at all. And it'll, it'll start to write all of it for you, which I 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:03.840 think that's the magic here. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:08.320 It's nice that you have this insider knowledge by having tried it out yourself for quite a while. 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:13.080 Yeah. It worked way better than other stuff when my daughter was young and I was trying to teach her 00:39:13.080 --> 00:39:19.900 like beyond the visual programming things, but it's, it's so forgiving compared to, well, here's your 00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:24.480 favorite editor and you start typing. Oh, why won't it run? There's three spaces, not four. Oh, I see. 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:27.120 You know, all that kind of detail you got to normally deal with. 00:39:27.120 --> 00:39:31.140 It can be so frustrating in the beginning. If you need to learn about everything at the same time, 00:39:31.140 --> 00:39:37.220 like syntax, spacing, brackets, it's just a lot to learn in the beginning. If you just want to 00:39:37.220 --> 00:39:39.720 understand the basic concept and like for a start. 00:39:39.720 --> 00:39:43.800 Yeah, absolutely. Another thing you put out there was code club. 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:50.780 Yeah. That's, I think a really cool resource by the Raspberry Pi foundation. So it's a platform and 00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:58.540 it guides your kids from lesson to lesson. So you start with learning scratch, but then it progresses 00:39:58.540 --> 00:40:05.480 onto Python and yeah, you can start, I think at the age of eight, yeah, you can start at the age of eight, 00:40:05.560 --> 00:40:12.240 which is also the recommended age for scratch. And this is just an example for a full platform that 00:40:12.240 --> 00:40:18.120 you can use to guide yourself or your children through progressing from one thing to the other. 00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:24.920 And I think it's also free. So if you start looking, there are lots of online coding classes that you can 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:31.960 use that teach you different things and have a whole program and sets of ideas behind how to approach 00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:32.460 different topics. 00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:37.120 Yeah. This looks very fun. And the example, at least they have on the screen is using Blockly, right? 00:40:37.120 --> 00:40:38.460 Or scratch one of them. 00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:44.340 I think it's scratch. Yeah. I think level one is scratch and then level two would be Python and more comes after that. 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:49.660 Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. Another one in this realm is Hedy. I had not heard of Hedy. 00:40:49.660 --> 00:40:58.160 Yeah. Me neither. Just when I started researching the topic, why I chose it as an example is that I just like the concept of 00:40:58.160 --> 00:41:04.780 gradual programming. So gradual programming means that what I just mentioned, basically, that if you learn language, 00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:11.060 speaking or like a programming language, you have to learn a lot at the same time. It can be overwhelming. 00:41:11.060 --> 00:41:17.360 You have concepts like loops, if else, and syntax like quotation marks, round brackets. 00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:26.640 And in Hedy, it's free, like it's a web-based interface. And concepts are introduced with as little syntax and then refined. 00:41:26.640 --> 00:41:32.900 So in the beginning, you can just type print and the text. And you don't have to worry about quotation marks or brackets. 00:41:33.260 --> 00:41:37.840 It's just introduced at a later stage. So it mimics the way in which we would learn a language. 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:44.180 And in the end, you like it's based on Python. So you learn a subset of Python, not the entire programming language, 00:41:44.180 --> 00:41:51.000 but it's syntactically valid and you have all the right syntax. But for some kids, it might be easier to get started with 00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:55.820 having not everything like being part of what you have to quote yourself. 00:41:55.820 --> 00:41:58.840 Right. Like learning, oh, whoops, you forgot to close the parentheses. 00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:02.880 So it's not going to run or you forgot to close the quote. So it won't work. Something like that. 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:03.460 Yeah, exactly. 00:42:03.460 --> 00:42:08.420 Yeah. Kids run into that all the time because they're like, well, I see the words on the screen that I wanted to do, 00:42:08.420 --> 00:42:11.060 but no, no, you got to put it in quotes. And why? 00:42:11.060 --> 00:42:17.140 Oh, and maybe regarding the age, this is recommended for age 10 plus years. So yeah, when you want to get started with 00:42:17.140 --> 00:42:22.680 actual textual programming. So it fits into the third age range that we discussed. 00:42:22.680 --> 00:42:29.280 That's pretty much the last limited age range, I guess you would say before you just go and do regular programming, right? 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:33.380 Exactly. From there, you can just progress on to more traditional programming languages. 00:42:33.380 --> 00:42:40.680 There are lots of resources like from the Bersbury Pi Foundation. They have Python courses and there are some on Udemy. 00:42:40.680 --> 00:42:44.500 If you start looking, there are tons of resources to get started. 00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:50.980 There are lots of online and on-site classes that teach kids starting at various ages. 00:42:50.980 --> 00:42:57.200 Yeah, I know about a few German offers where you can really find what you're interested in, 00:42:57.200 --> 00:43:03.380 which is really important, like make coding fun and learning fun for kids. 00:43:03.380 --> 00:43:09.720 So find out what they are interested in, what their passion is, and then find something that fits their interest. 00:43:09.720 --> 00:43:15.260 I'm sure there's a ton of stuff on YouTube as well to help people, but at least I'm out of touch. 00:43:15.260 --> 00:43:17.100 I bet there's a lot on TikTok actually. 00:43:17.100 --> 00:43:19.080 Oh yeah, I'm out of touch with that as well. 00:43:19.080 --> 00:43:25.040 Just, you know, you learn one concept every 30 seconds. You just swipe away until you're a programmer. 00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:32.700 I should actually look at that probably when talking about coding with kids. I guess that's something that can play a big part. 00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:39.880 For sure. Instagram reels or whatever. I think that kind of touches on most of the resources that we have out there. 00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:54.040 There's one more I do want to talk about though. And I think this is probably as good around, it's beyond the code combat stage where kids can actually use an editor to create proper valid syntax. 00:43:54.040 --> 00:43:59.040 But it's not much beyond that. And that's Anvil at Anvil.Works. Are you familiar with Anvil? 00:43:59.040 --> 00:43:59.460 No. 00:43:59.460 --> 00:44:17.140 So I've had Meredith create this online on the show. But what's really interesting is it's a way to visually build webpages that are actual real webpages that people can actually, you know, you publish it, your family or your friends could use it. 00:44:17.140 --> 00:44:29.440 So if you wanted to build, you know, something like a Harry Potter type thing and you could have your friends vote on which one, which character is their favorite and why or whatever, you know, like you could build this into a web page and publish it. 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:37.120 And with so many of these projects, it's like, okay, I built this cool thing. How do I share it? Or how do I make it look like the thing that I use? 00:44:37.120 --> 00:44:46.960 And so you can do this drag and drop, build it out thing. But then you write the front end, the front end interactive code in Python and true Python JavaScript. 00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:54.320 And then it has kind of like a simplified database in the backend. So it was like a little bit of like persistence and storage, but it's, it's really cool. 00:44:54.320 --> 00:45:02.540 After we did code combat with my daughter, we went and we did this and she built a bunch of things that were like really, she really thought were pretty neat. 00:45:02.600 --> 00:45:07.020 She could share with people and have people input little text messages or whatever. 00:45:07.020 --> 00:45:13.800 I love that. Yeah. I would learn again. I know very, I have very little knowledge about web programming. 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:16.660 This would be a good tool for me to get started as well. 00:45:16.660 --> 00:45:29.100 Yeah. Well, also the problem is even if you're a very good web programmer, it's like, okay, kid, you go from code combat to now you're doing CSS, HTML, database, you know, 00:45:29.100 --> 00:45:34.280 like the explosion of complexity to put, and then you do all that. And then how do you even put it on the web? 00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:42.740 It's just so out of control that step from one to the next. And so if people want to do anything with like web pages and Python, this is a really cool option. 00:45:42.740 --> 00:45:43.760 I think right here. 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:53.320 Really cool. Yeah. And like speaking from your experience, how did you get your kids excited about coding? Did they just like it or do they hate it? 00:45:53.440 --> 00:46:05.820 My older daughters, they grew up with less technology because they're older. So at first they weren't super into it, but then they got into college and they had to start learning things for their degree. 00:46:05.820 --> 00:46:12.840 And so now one of my daughters is doing a lot with R, which is fine because she's in psychology and that's what all of her colleagues are using. 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:16.820 Which is fine. It's not ideal, but it's fine. 00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:20.400 It's not ideal. It's fine. No, I'm not that. No, I'm very proud of her. 00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:28.080 I think there's different things that can motivate you. You know, you can just be curious. Like my youngest daughter is like, let's play games. Let's play code combat. 00:46:28.240 --> 00:46:36.340 Then she's like, I want to build something for my friend, you know, and so we did this thing with Anwell and she was very motivated, like seek out the technology and play with it. 00:46:36.340 --> 00:46:47.340 Whereas my older daughters, I think they, they weren't that interested and they had other things to do, but once they got somewhere with a job or with their education where they needed it, then all of a sudden it was more interesting. 00:46:47.520 --> 00:46:49.760 So, you know, it varies by kid, I think. 00:46:49.760 --> 00:47:00.500 Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that's fine as well. Not everyone needs to like coding, but just having the opportunity to learn about it and experience yourself if it's something that you're actually like. 00:47:00.500 --> 00:47:05.400 I was just so blown away when I experienced how fun it is to learn how to code. 00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:15.400 I always thought it was boring and having all these stereotypes in my head because I never actually knew anyone that was coding. 00:47:15.940 --> 00:47:18.960 It's nice that they had the opportunity to learn about it at home. 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:24.680 Yeah, it absolutely is. So I think we have a little more follow-up here on the TikTok learning style. 00:47:24.680 --> 00:47:30.320 Ty Vass Heather says, you can learn every single short, but you won't remember anything as you flip through them. 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:32.540 Flip, flip, flip, which is probably true. 00:47:32.540 --> 00:47:37.560 And then also, Krishan asks, you know, do you think Scratch is good to start with for kids? 00:47:37.560 --> 00:47:42.040 Like if you had a kid who was 10, 11, 12, 13, what would you start them with? 00:47:42.040 --> 00:47:45.700 Yeah, I would get started with visual programming. I think it makes it easier. 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:49.560 I know that for some kids, it can be hard then to progress onto textual programming. 00:47:49.560 --> 00:47:53.960 But I guess this is just a general thing. You need to see what works. 00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:59.640 It's not that you, it might be that you start with one thing and you see, actually, it doesn't work for us. 00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:03.680 And then you have to switch tracks. And that will happen a lot. And that's just fine. 00:48:03.680 --> 00:48:05.680 You need to find your own path through it. 00:48:05.780 --> 00:48:12.340 And don't be afraid to actually make changes if you are not enjoying what your kid is not enjoying their work. 00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:21.720 I think visual programming is a great and fun way to get started with coding concepts and not have it feel like you're actually coding. 00:48:21.900 --> 00:48:26.560 Absolutely. So, Christian's child is 13. I will consider code combat, actually. 00:48:26.560 --> 00:48:32.900 I think, you know, 13, you're well enough to do textual stuff if it's not too much drudgery, right? 00:48:32.900 --> 00:48:35.420 Like matching braces and quotes and all that. 00:48:35.420 --> 00:48:38.880 So maybe if this kind of thing inspires, maybe that as well. 00:48:39.020 --> 00:48:43.900 Yeah, absolutely. I think 13 is great for getting started with textual programming as well. 00:48:43.900 --> 00:48:52.420 And what is so nice about having large language models now is that lots of these offers are being translated to various languages. 00:48:52.420 --> 00:48:58.700 And it is becoming much more easy to get started in your native language, which might not be English. 00:48:58.700 --> 00:49:02.720 And then you do not have to learn a language while you learn how to code. 00:49:02.720 --> 00:49:06.640 Yeah, that's also, I think, a huge advantage of the current time. 00:49:06.860 --> 00:49:12.940 That's something that's always been interesting to me is so many of the programming languages are in English, 00:49:12.940 --> 00:49:17.220 but many of the programmers, their first language is not English. 00:49:17.220 --> 00:49:17.500 Yeah. 00:49:17.500 --> 00:49:20.180 And, you know, maybe like your English is perfect, I'm sure. 00:49:20.180 --> 00:49:22.280 You know, forward, while it's no big deal. 00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.840 But when you're 10 years old, here, you need to learn a program. 00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:27.380 Well, by the way, it's in a foreign language. 00:49:27.380 --> 00:49:28.680 That's pretty wild, right? 00:49:28.680 --> 00:49:29.800 That's got to be challenging. 00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:31.940 What was your, like, how do you feel about this? 00:49:31.940 --> 00:49:33.440 I mean, you're more in it than I am. 00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.580 Yeah, I would always start. 00:49:34.700 --> 00:49:38.260 Like, if you have the chance, then start in the native language of the child. 00:49:38.260 --> 00:49:42.220 And you will definitely find good ways to get started and good offers. 00:49:42.220 --> 00:49:45.360 For example, Scratch, I think, is available in lots of languages. 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:47.240 70 languages, actually. 00:49:47.240 --> 00:49:53.680 Choose something that keeps the cognitive effort that you need to get started with simpler. 00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:57.540 Because otherwise, you really have to learn two things at the same time. 00:49:57.540 --> 00:49:59.620 Learning a language and learning all these concepts. 00:49:59.620 --> 00:50:02.220 And it can then be overwhelming. 00:50:02.220 --> 00:50:04.120 It's not something that I had to deal with. 00:50:04.120 --> 00:50:07.300 But looking back, I'm like, wow, I was pretty lucky that I didn't have to 00:50:07.300 --> 00:50:11.420 learn what all the keywords meant in addition to just what I was trying to do. 00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:14.620 That's also actually why I decided to study in English. 00:50:14.620 --> 00:50:18.020 Because I knew all the papers I'm reading are in English. 00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:19.820 All the code I'm writing is in English. 00:50:19.820 --> 00:50:21.700 It doesn't make sense to study it in German. 00:50:21.700 --> 00:50:23.160 It's just weird. 00:50:23.160 --> 00:50:27.540 The internet has done some interesting things to just sort of spread everything around globally. 00:50:27.540 --> 00:50:28.680 So, all right. 00:50:28.680 --> 00:50:30.080 Anna Lena, this has been awesome. 00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:33.900 A bunch of concrete things for people to take and work with their kids. 00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:36.260 Maybe if they're grandparents, their grandchildren, 00:50:36.540 --> 00:50:39.480 or if they're teachers or friends, kids or whatever, right? 00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:40.140 Whatever, yeah. 00:50:40.140 --> 00:50:40.560 Yeah. 00:50:40.560 --> 00:50:43.660 How about some final advice to close out the topic? 00:50:43.660 --> 00:50:44.200 Yeah. 00:50:44.200 --> 00:50:47.100 I think for me, two things are the most important ones. 00:50:47.100 --> 00:50:50.600 Namely, first, don't force your child to learn how to code. 00:50:50.600 --> 00:50:54.240 But see if you can find a way that makes it fun for them. 00:50:54.240 --> 00:51:00.080 I think making or learning that learning is actually a cool thing. 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:07.880 It's like it offers you or it opens you so many doors in your life that you learn that putting in the effort. 00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:11.440 And even if something is complicated, it's worth it. 00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:16.380 It's just one of the most valuable skills you can provide your child with. 00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:17.400 So, yeah. 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:20.280 Learning how to learn and how to love learning, I guess. 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.380 And there's lots of ways in which you can do it. 00:51:23.380 --> 00:51:25.100 Choose the right topics. 00:51:25.100 --> 00:51:25.900 Be patient. 00:51:25.900 --> 00:51:28.400 Sit down with your kids and learn together. 00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:35.420 Don't force them to sit down for long times and like rather distribute learning sessions over time. 00:51:35.420 --> 00:51:37.400 Don't be afraid to switch tracks. 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:42.480 Lots of the things that apply to adults also apply to children regarding learning. 00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:43.160 Very good advice. 00:51:43.160 --> 00:51:48.300 I would just maybe reemphasize that people should reward persistence. 00:51:48.300 --> 00:51:50.540 Reward it very, very highly. 00:51:50.540 --> 00:51:54.600 Like, I can't believe you spent half an hour and you just got, barely got it to print hello. 00:51:54.600 --> 00:51:56.220 But that's actually a massive accomplishment. 00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.720 And like, I'm so proud of how hard you focused and worked on it, right? 00:51:59.720 --> 00:52:00.480 That's a big deal. 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:00.840 Yeah. 00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:04.080 That's like, it makes a huge difference to two kids. 00:52:04.080 --> 00:52:05.120 Probably adults as well. 00:52:05.120 --> 00:52:05.380 Yeah. 00:52:05.380 --> 00:52:05.680 Yeah. 00:52:05.680 --> 00:52:06.320 Everyone. 00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:09.040 But you lay the foundation for learning, right? 00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:10.040 So if you... 00:52:10.040 --> 00:52:10.160 Yeah. 00:52:10.160 --> 00:52:15.240 I mean, that expands on to being good at literature or being good at philosophy or like whatever 00:52:15.240 --> 00:52:16.840 it is that's hard to learn. 00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:19.440 And just believing that you can learn anything. 00:52:19.620 --> 00:52:20.260 Yes, exactly. 00:52:20.260 --> 00:52:22.540 And the other is to try to capture inspiration. 00:52:22.540 --> 00:52:26.820 If they're like really, really excited and they really want to learn a thing at that moment, 00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:28.560 then you could introduce some of these tools. 00:52:28.560 --> 00:52:31.180 But if they're like, I want to go outside and play with my French, you're like, no, 00:52:31.180 --> 00:52:32.180 come in here, we're doing coding. 00:52:32.180 --> 00:52:34.160 Like, maybe that's not the moment, yeah? 00:52:34.160 --> 00:52:34.680 Exactly. 00:52:34.680 --> 00:52:35.140 Yeah. 00:52:35.140 --> 00:52:35.520 All right. 00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:39.240 Thank you for taking the time to put this all together and coming on the show and nice 00:52:39.240 --> 00:52:39.740 to have you back. 00:52:39.740 --> 00:52:40.040 So... 00:52:40.040 --> 00:52:40.360 Thank you. 00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:40.600 Yeah. 00:52:40.600 --> 00:52:41.060 Thanks. 00:52:41.060 --> 00:52:41.480 Bye. 00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:41.840 Bye. 00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:42.960 Bye. 00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:43.960 Bye. 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:44.960 Bye. 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:45.960 Bye. 00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:46.960 Bye. 00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:47.960 Bye. 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:48.960 Bye. 00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:49.960 Bye. 00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:50.960 Bye. 00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:51.960 Bye. 00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:52.960 Bye. 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:53.960 Bye. 00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:54.960 Bye. 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:55.960 Bye. 00:52:55.960 --> 00:52:56.960 Bye. 00:52:56.960 --> 00:52:58.960 Bye. 00:52:58.960 --> 00:52:59.960 Bye. 00:52:59.960 --> 00:53:00.960 Bye. 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:01.960 Bye. 00:53:01.960 --> 00:53:02.960 Bye. 00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:03.960 Bye. 00:53:03.960 --> 00:53:04.960 Bye. 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:05.960 Bye. 00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:06.960 Bye. 00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:07.960 Bye. 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:08.960 Bye. 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:09.960 Bye. 00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:10.960 Bye. 00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:14.020 More at talkpython.fm/workos. 00:53:14.020 --> 00:53:15.680 Want to level up your Python? 00:53:15.680 --> 00:53:19.800 We have one of the largest catalogs of Python video courses over at Talk Python. 00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:24.900 Our content ranges from true beginners to deeply advanced topics like memory and async. 00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:27.560 And best of all, there's not a subscription in sight. 00:53:27.560 --> 00:53:30.480 Check it out for yourself at training.talkpython.fm. 00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:32.580 Be sure to subscribe to the show. 00:53:32.580 --> 00:53:35.360 Open your favorite podcast app and search for Python. 00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:36.680 We should be right at the top. 00:53:37.100 --> 00:53:41.820 You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, the Google Play feed at /play, 00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:46.040 and the direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm. 00:53:46.040 --> 00:53:48.980 We're live streaming most of our recordings these days. 00:53:48.980 --> 00:53:52.400 If you want to be part of the show and have your comments featured on the air, 00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:56.780 be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at talkpython.fm/youtube. 00:53:56.780 --> 00:53:58.880 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:00.180 Thanks so much for listening. 00:54:00.180 --> 00:54:01.340 I really appreciate it. 00:54:01.340 --> 00:54:03.240 Now get out there and write some Python code. 00:54:03.240 --> 00:54:24.400 I'll see you next time.