WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:06.040 The beauty of open source software and libraries is that you're not stuck with a single option some vendor is offering. 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.940 This is especially true when that support is poor or antiquated. 00:00:09.940 --> 00:00:16.020 Almost any capability you can think of has multiple options, even for a single language such as Python. 00:00:16.020 --> 00:00:19.760 Just think about how many web frameworks you can pick from today. 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:22.140 But therein lies a new problem. 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:24.640 If there are 10 options, how do you choose? 00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:27.580 Do you go for the oldest and potentially most stable? 00:00:27.940 --> 00:00:30.100 How about the most up-to-date one? 00:00:30.100 --> 00:00:34.640 Maybe the hot new version that has the fastest adoption curve is the right one for you. 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:39.580 It's not easy, but luckily we have an excellent panel here to discuss exactly that. 00:00:39.580 --> 00:00:45.860 You'll hear from Emily Morehouse, Cecil Phillip, Kim VanWijk, Lucas Schlinge, Gareth Thomas, and Dan Garland. 00:00:45.860 --> 00:00:51.680 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 397, recorded December 7th, 2022. 00:00:51.680 --> 00:01:08.220 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python. 00:01:08.220 --> 00:01:09.960 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:01:09.960 --> 00:01:17.440 Follow me on Mastodon, where I'm @mkennedy, and follow the podcast using @talkpython, both on fosstodon.org. 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:20.060 Be careful with impersonating accounts on other instances. 00:01:20.060 --> 00:01:21.020 There are many. 00:01:21.020 --> 00:01:26.080 Keep up with the show and listen to over seven years of past episodes at talkpython.fm. 00:01:26.580 --> 00:01:30.140 We've started streaming most of our episodes live on YouTube. 00:01:30.140 --> 00:01:37.660 Subscribe to our YouTube channel over at talkpython.fm/youtube to get notified about upcoming shows and be part of that episode. 00:01:37.660 --> 00:01:40.820 This episode is brought to you by Cox Automotive. 00:01:40.820 --> 00:01:47.840 Use your technical skills to transform the way the world buys, sells, and owns cars at talkpython.fm/cox. 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.020 And by Sentry. 00:01:49.020 --> 00:01:50.860 Don't let those errors go unnoticed. 00:01:50.860 --> 00:01:51.640 Use Sentry. 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:55.060 Get started at talkpython.fm/sentry. 00:01:55.060 --> 00:02:06.780 Transcripts for this episode are sponsored by Assembly AI, the API platform for state-of-the-art AI models that automatically transcribe and understand audio data at a large scale. 00:02:06.780 --> 00:02:10.620 To learn more, visit talkpython.fm/assemblyai. 00:02:11.160 --> 00:02:11.760 Hey, y'all. 00:02:11.760 --> 00:02:12.980 Welcome to Talk Python To Me. 00:02:12.980 --> 00:02:16.240 Gareth, Kim, Lukasz, Cecil, Emily, and Dan. 00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:19.360 I've got a bunch of you here, and I'm so excited to have you all on the show. 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:20.260 Thanks for being here. 00:02:20.260 --> 00:02:20.680 Sure thing. 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:22.000 Yeah, I'm excited, man. 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:23.400 We have a nice little party going on. 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:24.320 Yeah, we do. 00:02:24.320 --> 00:02:25.880 We definitely do. 00:02:25.880 --> 00:02:34.740 Yeah, so I'm really excited to talk about choosing technology, choosing libraries for programming, or maybe a database that we might use for a project. 00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:40.920 You know, we have this paradox of choice type of problem, and especially in the Python space. 00:02:40.920 --> 00:02:42.220 You know, I haven't even looked. 00:02:42.220 --> 00:02:45.120 Are we over 400,000 packages on PyPI? 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:46.100 There's many, right? 00:02:46.100 --> 00:02:50.880 We are over 14 terabytes of storage on PyPI that I know. 00:02:50.880 --> 00:02:52.100 Oh, my goodness. 00:02:52.100 --> 00:02:52.800 Yeah. 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:53.540 Jack, look. 00:02:53.540 --> 00:02:58.320 It's mostly machine learning, but, you know, Kenneth, there's a lot of packages. 00:02:58.320 --> 00:03:00.680 Yeah, there's definitely a lot of packages. 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:02.860 Okay, well, how do you pick? 00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:08.540 How do you go to that list and say, I'm going to search for a web framework, and look, there's 100 results. 00:03:08.940 --> 00:03:09.560 How do I pick? 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:11.980 Or I'm going to find a way to talk to a database. 00:03:11.980 --> 00:03:13.200 What database should it be? 00:03:13.200 --> 00:03:16.600 So that's going to be our topic for the show today. 00:03:16.600 --> 00:03:24.060 And let's just start real quick with the elevator pitch of who you are and your background. 00:03:24.060 --> 00:03:25.960 You know, 30 seconds or less. 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:28.460 We'll go around the Brady Bunch squares here. 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:28.820 Gareth. 00:03:28.820 --> 00:03:29.920 Hi, I'm Gareth. 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:35.440 I've been programming for probably 40 years, I guess, and now, because I started when I was about three. 00:03:35.440 --> 00:03:37.320 I'm on a Dragon 64. 00:03:37.320 --> 00:03:44.340 But it was only recently I got into Python, really, when I took up a job as a CTO of a company that did everything in Python and haven't looked back. 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:47.040 And now I'm doing CTO stuff the whole time. 00:03:47.040 --> 00:03:48.300 Fantastic. 00:03:48.880 --> 00:03:53.280 And I think CTO positions are very much in this role. 00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:57.420 You've got to set a little bit of guidance for the company and the teams, right? 00:03:57.420 --> 00:03:57.760 Yes. 00:03:57.760 --> 00:03:59.680 And I don't get to do code anymore. 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:01.500 I just get to watch people write code. 00:04:01.880 --> 00:04:06.100 You just get to make decisions for them and watch whether they enjoy it or don't enjoy it. 00:04:06.100 --> 00:04:07.560 Kim, welcome back. 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:08.040 Thanks. 00:04:08.040 --> 00:04:14.640 I must be roughly the same age as Gareth, but I have been writing code for probably about 25 years because I didn't start when I was three. 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:30.660 Professionally, I've been doing some Python, some C, some otherwise for 20-odd years, writing software for embedded systems, doing DevOps work, and at the moment doing dot engineering work with, I guess, in the American sense, you'd fall a mortgage provider in South Africa, my current employer. 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:31.340 Yeah, fantastic. 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:32.480 Lukash, welcome back. 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.700 Hi, I'm the core developer in residence for CPython. 00:04:35.700 --> 00:04:40.560 So actually getting money from the Python Software Foundation to help develop Python. 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:47.140 Just yesterday, we released six simultaneous versions of Python at the same time, which I think is a record. 00:04:47.140 --> 00:04:47.840 Yeah. 00:04:47.840 --> 00:04:48.880 So I mostly do that. 00:04:48.880 --> 00:04:50.640 I don't program for 40 years. 00:04:50.640 --> 00:04:52.460 I'm 37 at the moment. 00:04:52.460 --> 00:04:56.240 Still maintaining 37 because my birthday is March. 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:58.440 So like approaching quickly, but you know. 00:04:58.440 --> 00:04:59.460 Don't let 38 get you. 00:04:59.460 --> 00:04:59.860 Yes. 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:01.160 I'm not almost 40. 00:05:01.280 --> 00:05:02.560 I'm 37, you know. 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:03.640 Awesome. 00:05:03.640 --> 00:05:05.880 Well, congratulations on all the great work. 00:05:05.880 --> 00:05:10.300 I know you've done a ton of work to keep CPython moving forward. 00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:10.500 Yeah. 00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:10.860 Thank you. 00:05:10.860 --> 00:05:13.040 There seems to be like more and more to do, actually. 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:24.100 So just looking at 3.1.1 that we released yesterday, it had like almost 500 comets since 3.11.0, which is kind of unprecedented as a rate of change. 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:30.640 So, you know, kind of, we have so much kind of velocity right now that I have never seen before. 00:05:30.640 --> 00:05:31.760 So a lot of change. 00:05:31.760 --> 00:05:32.160 Amazing. 00:05:32.320 --> 00:05:35.980 I talked to Ned Batchelder on another podcast that we were doing. 00:05:35.980 --> 00:05:37.140 We'll come out before this one. 00:05:37.140 --> 00:05:38.360 And we looked. 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:42.600 The change log for CPython is 175,000 words. 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.580 A typical novel is 80,000. 00:05:45.840 --> 00:05:46.900 So that's a lot. 00:05:46.900 --> 00:05:47.620 That's nuts. 00:05:47.620 --> 00:05:49.980 Cecil, always good to have you on the show. 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:50.460 Welcome back. 00:05:50.460 --> 00:05:50.820 Sure. 00:05:50.820 --> 00:05:51.640 Thanks for having me. 00:05:51.640 --> 00:05:52.020 Hi, everyone. 00:05:52.020 --> 00:05:54.120 I'm Cecil Phillip, developer advocate at Stripe. 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:59.540 I will not tell you how old I am, but I will tell you that my programming grid beard is just starting to come in. 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:02.280 So not fully there yet, but I'm still working on it. 00:06:02.280 --> 00:06:05.420 Primarily been doing a lot of .NET stuff, some Python stuff. 00:06:05.420 --> 00:06:07.280 Recently started playing around with Go. 00:06:07.280 --> 00:06:10.680 Maybe we'll talk about that, you know, in the midst of this conversation as well. 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:17.000 But other than that, you know, I, you know, as an advocate, I spent a lot of time doing video and going to conferences and doing demos and stuff. 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:20.440 So I kind of feel like my job is to learn stuff to an extent. 00:06:20.440 --> 00:06:21.000 You know what I mean? 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.080 There's a lot of that that happens. 00:06:22.080 --> 00:06:27.100 And, yeah, I kind of have a lot of fun doing it both, you know, for work and, you know, outside of work. 00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:27.300 Yeah. 00:06:27.300 --> 00:06:28.840 That sounds like a great job. 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:30.200 Emily, welcome back. 00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:30.520 Hi there. 00:06:30.520 --> 00:06:31.860 I'm Emily Morehouse. 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:34.980 I'm the director of engineering at a company called Cuddlesoft. 00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:44.200 We are a kind of digital product consultancy focusing on, you know, user experience for full stack applications. 00:06:44.200 --> 00:06:47.600 But we also get into some of the nitty gritty stuff. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:55.660 So we kind of do that full spectrum DevOps, firmware, middleware development, web applications, all the way through design. 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.080 So I get to touch a lot of different pieces of technology. 00:06:59.080 --> 00:07:02.460 A lot of my work is in Python, but not all of it. 00:07:02.620 --> 00:07:06.280 I write a lot of Ruby, a lot of JavaScript kind of across the spectrum. 00:07:06.280 --> 00:07:14.920 So I get to kind of see how different ecosystems handle open source, which is really interesting because I feel like the JavaScript world is very different. 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:17.920 I found world and the Ruby world and kind of down that stack. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:18.560 So, yeah. 00:07:18.780 --> 00:07:21.540 So this topic is right down right in your wheelhouse. 00:07:21.540 --> 00:07:28.360 And I think also the consulting side, the agency side is interesting because you work with one group. 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:29.960 You say, here's what we recommend for you. 00:07:29.960 --> 00:07:35.100 Oh, another group has another company has a different set of software skills. 00:07:35.100 --> 00:07:37.920 So you might recommend something different in that case, right? 00:07:37.920 --> 00:07:38.680 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:43.320 And the technical expertise that our clients come with is very wide reaching, right? 00:07:43.320 --> 00:07:48.380 So some people are completely non-seqtical, don't want to touch it, don't want to know anything about it. 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:55.820 We're going to be able to connect to very technical teams where we're kind of coming in as a specific partner on a specific piece of their tech that they are eventually going to take over. 00:07:55.820 --> 00:07:59.580 And there's a lot more kind of risk management for this, right? 00:07:59.580 --> 00:08:05.560 Like we can't build something for our client that then we're going to say, you know, your library isn't supported in six months. 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:09.000 So it also gives us a chance to start fresh a lot, right? 00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:10.840 Like most of our projects are greenfield. 00:08:10.840 --> 00:08:19.060 So we do get to say, hey, look, like we've been doing our due diligence on this new framework or this new library or whatever it is. 00:08:19.060 --> 00:08:32.460 And we think that this is a really good place for you to be and get a chance to like actually build something with a new library more so than like convincing, you know, a company to rewrite their Django application and something else. 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:33.040 Right. 00:08:33.040 --> 00:08:35.760 You also were the chair of PyCon. 00:08:35.760 --> 00:08:36.960 Is that the right title? 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:39.420 Yeah, I forgot to mention that. 00:08:39.420 --> 00:08:41.140 I'm the recovering chair. 00:08:41.140 --> 00:08:42.940 I'm chair emeritus now. 00:08:42.940 --> 00:08:43.280 Yeah. 00:08:43.280 --> 00:08:43.700 Yeah. 00:08:43.700 --> 00:08:45.020 So I was going to ask. 00:08:45.020 --> 00:08:45.900 I heard that there's a support group somewhere. 00:08:45.900 --> 00:08:47.540 I'm sure there is. 00:08:47.540 --> 00:08:49.660 Not overseeing 2023, are you? 00:08:49.660 --> 00:08:50.180 No. 00:08:50.180 --> 00:08:52.620 I'm taking a break. 00:08:52.620 --> 00:08:53.080 Yep. 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:53.480 Fantastic. 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:54.440 All right. 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:55.120 Well, thanks for that. 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:56.660 Dan, welcome to the show. 00:08:56.660 --> 00:08:57.180 Thanks. 00:08:57.180 --> 00:08:58.640 I'm Dan Gerlank. 00:08:58.640 --> 00:09:07.640 I've been doing software development professionally for 20 years to some degree, more in one capacity or another. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:22.380 I'm currently the director of engineering for the data science and ML engineering team at Ampersand, which probably the simplest way to think of it's kind of like a brokerage for television advertising. 00:09:22.380 --> 00:09:28.220 Prior to that, I actually ran my own consulting job for a decent amount of time. 00:09:28.220 --> 00:09:34.600 So I've worked on that agency side a bit and also started my career in quant finance. 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:38.840 I've worked across a wide range of things. 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:44.880 And I'm pretty involved with the Asara project these days on the open source side. 00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:47.180 I can also do a bit of teaching on the side. 00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:52.580 I've taught on O'Reilly about pandas and different things from time to time. 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:52.880 So. 00:09:52.880 --> 00:09:53.720 Fun. 00:09:53.720 --> 00:09:53.980 Yeah. 00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:54.300 Teaching. 00:09:54.300 --> 00:09:58.620 Teaching is always a great way to kind of learn these technologies a little bit deeper as well. 00:09:58.680 --> 00:09:59.080 For sure. 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:04.700 Then you definitely learn it for real when you go out to teach it. 00:10:04.700 --> 00:10:07.600 The fear of having to stand in front of a bunch of people and not know the answer. 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:08.600 Motivate you. 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:10.320 That's right. 00:10:11.460 --> 00:10:15.700 I guess conference speaking kind of works that way, but it's not as back and forth as well. 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:16.380 All right. 00:10:16.380 --> 00:10:21.760 So let's kick off this conversation with maybe a story from some of you. 00:10:21.760 --> 00:10:29.200 So I wanted to start with just maybe a story how you've chosen some tech stack or some database 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.800 or some new framework. 00:10:31.800 --> 00:10:35.180 You know, a lot of leeway in the scope there. 00:10:35.180 --> 00:10:37.820 But, you know, whoever wants to jump in, just, you know, what? 00:10:37.820 --> 00:10:40.700 Give us a story of something you've sort of gone down that path recently. 00:10:40.700 --> 00:10:45.620 Well, I'll jump in and talk a little bit about like the strategy of how I choose to learn 00:10:45.620 --> 00:10:45.920 stuff. 00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:51.280 And I think it's important that you have a learning or a choice strategy, at least for me, because 00:10:51.280 --> 00:10:53.520 like there's just so much stuff to play with. 00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:54.960 And like there's only so many hours in the day. 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:58.880 And so you always have to be like surgical with your time about like what you choose to 00:10:58.880 --> 00:10:59.040 do. 00:10:59.040 --> 00:11:03.520 And so one of the things for me is like, I don't build production applications. 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:05.680 And I think that's an important thing to note. 00:11:05.680 --> 00:11:08.880 So, you know, everyone else's perspective might be a little bit different. 00:11:08.880 --> 00:11:12.460 But like most of the apps that I'm building, I am beta testing stuff. 00:11:12.460 --> 00:11:16.420 I'm creating things for other folks, you know, doing proof of concepts with companies and 00:11:16.420 --> 00:11:17.020 stuff like that. 00:11:17.020 --> 00:11:20.940 So now when you think about the things that I have to learn, I usually have to learn things 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:22.700 to like get it to work for a little bit. 00:11:22.700 --> 00:11:24.540 And then I'll walk away and I'll go do something else. 00:11:24.540 --> 00:11:24.720 Right. 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:29.320 Like I don't learn it with the perspective of I have to maintain it over a long period of 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:29.680 time. 00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:31.500 Now, that is not important that I do it the right way. 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:33.860 But again, you know, the perspective is just a little bit different. 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:39.120 So for me, one of the things that I often try to do is, you know, try to find the thing 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.000 that like, I'm really interested in doing. 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:45.520 I like the thing that'll be useful at work and try and like plug those things together. 00:11:45.520 --> 00:11:45.720 Right. 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:47.720 And like try and see how we can find some symmetry there. 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:52.320 And so an example would be like one of the things I'm playing with right now is open telemetry. 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:52.760 Right. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.120 Now, I don't work for an open telemetry company. 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.460 And, you know, that's not a thing that we have libraries or extensions for. 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:02.080 But at the same time, too, like, you know, we think about as we're building apps, right? 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:04.040 Like, you know, inspection is an important thing. 00:12:04.040 --> 00:12:04.260 Right. 00:12:04.260 --> 00:12:06.940 And being able to give folks guidance is an important thing. 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:12.160 And so when people come to me as an advocate and ask questions, I might not have to know 00:12:12.160 --> 00:12:16.100 everything in detail, but I try and know things enough so that I can at least have an opinion 00:12:16.100 --> 00:12:17.840 and have a conversation about it. 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:21.660 You know, be able to speak intelligently about it, even though I might not know like all 00:12:21.660 --> 00:12:25.600 the knobs and whistles and like dials I have to turn to like get the thing to work. 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:30.720 You know, one of the things that I think would be really important for that role is really 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:34.220 carefully tracking where's the momentum in frameworks. 00:12:34.220 --> 00:12:40.120 Maybe it's not the most important or widely used thing at the moment, but in six months, you 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.820 know, a little bit of the Gretzky quote, you know, where is this thing going and what 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:45.220 is the advice you're going to give to people? 00:12:45.220 --> 00:12:46.180 Yeah, I agree with that. 00:12:46.300 --> 00:12:48.820 And that also, again, kind of goes into the strategy, right? 00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:51.740 Of like, what am I learning this thing for? 00:12:51.740 --> 00:12:52.640 You know what I mean? 00:12:52.640 --> 00:12:58.140 Like, am I learning it to, again, like, am I learning it specifically to achieve like a 00:12:58.140 --> 00:12:59.300 particular personal goal? 00:12:59.300 --> 00:13:00.800 Is there something that I'm trying to fix? 00:13:00.800 --> 00:13:05.020 Am I trying to, am I trying to like explore technology so I could pick and choose the thing 00:13:05.020 --> 00:13:05.920 that I want to do, right? 00:13:05.920 --> 00:13:07.600 Like, like what exactly am I learning this thing? 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:09.740 Am I learning it to teach it to someone else, right? 00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:13.260 Like, no, that's, that's a completely different perspective as you're trying to figure out, 00:13:13.260 --> 00:13:15.860 well, how do I kind of zone into the thing that I'm trying to do? 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.840 Yeah, I was going to add something to what Cecil was saying there. 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.280 One of the important things that you point out that you often end up doing is maybe helping 00:13:22.280 --> 00:13:26.000 people select a framework or a piece of tech stack or something to use. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.300 And the kind of thing that always, that used to strike a lot of the teams I've worked on, 00:13:30.300 --> 00:13:34.720 and I certainly was guilty as anybody else, is spending a heck of a lot of time going back 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.340 and forth thinking, well, we could use this one or we could use this one and let's try 00:13:37.340 --> 00:13:37.720 this one. 00:13:37.800 --> 00:13:40.840 Well, if I take three days to try this one, and then next week we'll take three days to 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:41.320 try that one. 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:45.080 And ultimately, if somebody's paying you to write software, it's kind of an important 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:48.380 lesson to remember that ultimately you have to pick something and it'll be good enough. 00:13:48.380 --> 00:13:51.420 Your job isn't actually to pick the right thing and spend a month on it. 00:13:51.420 --> 00:13:53.100 There are other things they're paying you to do. 00:13:53.100 --> 00:13:57.320 So one of the important things to think to take stack selection is basically, if it's good 00:13:57.320 --> 00:13:58.040 enough, that's fine. 00:13:58.040 --> 00:13:59.720 If it's not good enough, then obviously it must go. 00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:03.660 And it's useful to have somebody like Cecil to be able to tell you if it's good enough. 00:14:03.660 --> 00:14:06.860 But we can make them step seeking out kind of perfect. 00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:09.380 Is there absolutely anything wrong with this? 00:14:09.380 --> 00:14:10.040 Now we'll use this one. 00:14:10.040 --> 00:14:11.500 Let's try that one and stick it. 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:12.280 Maybe it'll be better. 00:14:12.280 --> 00:14:14.820 And three weeks later, they're saying to you, why haven't you met the deadline? 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:16.080 Ah, but we have the perfect tool. 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.120 Haven't used it yet. 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:18.500 It's taken us a month to find that. 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:19.740 We have the perfect tool now. 00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:19.980 Yeah. 00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:22.040 It's an easy trap to fall into. 00:14:22.040 --> 00:14:22.500 It is. 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:24.360 And I think a lot of people probably fall into it. 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.820 And you got to decide, is this a one-way door or a two-way door? 00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:30.040 Is it the gate at the exit of the airport? 00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:33.280 Like if I make this choice, how committed am I to this thing? 00:14:33.280 --> 00:14:38.200 Because if you try it for a week and it's not what you thought it would, you could come 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:39.140 back and try something else. 00:14:39.140 --> 00:14:42.420 Then why spend three weeks before you even start, right? 00:14:42.420 --> 00:14:45.000 You've learned a lot in that quote failure, right? 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:50.740 This portion of Talk Python Nemy is brought to you by Cox Automotive. 00:14:50.740 --> 00:14:57.260 With brands like Kelly Blue Book, Autotrader, Dealer.com, and more, Cox Automotive flips the 00:14:57.260 --> 00:15:01.240 script on how we buy, sell, own, and use our cars. 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:07.500 And now the team at Cox Automotive is looking for software engineers, data scientists, scrum 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:12.020 masters, and other tech experts to help create meaningful change in the industry. 00:15:12.020 --> 00:15:17.420 Do you want to be part of a collaborative workplace that values your time and work-life balance? 00:15:17.420 --> 00:15:19.740 Consider joining Cox Automotive. 00:15:20.300 --> 00:15:23.600 Visit talkpython.fm/cox today. 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:26.720 Thank you to Cox Automotive for sponsoring the show. 00:15:28.100 --> 00:15:33.520 I would even go further and say that technology choice doesn't really matter that much. 00:15:33.520 --> 00:15:39.820 The experience I had with large companies I worked for was that they often would choose 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:47.760 technology that was utterly boring and not interesting even at the time when they did choose it, but 00:15:47.760 --> 00:15:49.600 became dated very quickly. 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:51.440 And it didn't matter one bit. 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:55.460 Like Facebook was PHP, MySQL, and Linux, right? 00:15:55.460 --> 00:16:00.920 Only when they already grew, it wasn't really Linux, it wasn't really MySQL, and it wasn't really PHP. 00:16:00.920 --> 00:16:08.100 But at that point, you already have enough infrastructure and enough employees and everything to actually, 00:16:08.100 --> 00:16:09.820 you know, keep it going anyway. 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:13.860 Same with like Instagram that was purchased by Facebook, but it was Django, right? 00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:14.780 And still Django. 00:16:14.920 --> 00:16:15.820 But it's not really Django. 00:16:15.820 --> 00:16:16.520 It doesn't matter. 00:16:16.520 --> 00:16:21.900 Like it brought them to where they are through it being an established technology. 00:16:21.900 --> 00:16:27.580 And I would in fact kind of err on the side of boring because it's going to be there for you, 00:16:27.580 --> 00:16:29.020 you know, going forward. 00:16:29.020 --> 00:16:33.420 And that's important, especially like, you know, if you're choosing a data store, like you want to 00:16:33.420 --> 00:16:37.760 choose something that, you know, like you're not going to have to migrate from in a year or two, 00:16:37.760 --> 00:16:41.420 because that's not something that is a productive use of your time. 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:47.640 So I'm going to kind of contradict what I'm saying now very often as part of my job and say, 00:16:47.640 --> 00:16:49.400 you shouldn't be an early adopter. 00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:52.340 But well, in case of CPython, you absolutely should. 00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:55.440 And you should test our alphas and test our betas. 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.000 But you know, you have your CI for that. 00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.280 So it's a safe environment. 00:16:59.280 --> 00:17:01.820 Like don't run 3.12 in production right now. 00:17:01.820 --> 00:17:03.340 Do test with it, right? 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:04.680 So this sort of thing. 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.700 And Python, yeah, it's already like you can use 3.11.1 just fine. 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:09.640 It should be okay. 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:16.660 Since we are with our annual release cycle, a kind of in sync with Linux distributions, 00:17:16.660 --> 00:17:23.280 which are doing testing of a new Python version as part of their release for October. 00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:26.840 So Fedora and Ubuntu test our newest Python. 00:17:26.840 --> 00:17:29.920 So it's kind of best tested as it ever was. 00:17:30.020 --> 00:17:33.780 But when it comes to your data store, when it comes to your web framework, you know, 00:17:33.780 --> 00:17:35.480 choosing something that is extremely new. 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.560 And well, we're not sure if it's going to stay forever. 00:17:39.560 --> 00:17:42.520 It's maybe, maybe a kind of a bold choice. 00:17:42.520 --> 00:17:46.280 Unless it's like a 10, 10 X multiplier of your productivity. 00:17:46.280 --> 00:17:48.720 I would just choose the boring thing. 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.380 Well, your advice about CPython, you know, 3.10 versus 3.11. 00:17:52.380 --> 00:17:55.680 It's not the same as Django versus FastAPI, right? 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:00.140 It's like the evolution of the thing, but you could always roll back a little bit, right? 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:01.580 It's, it's a little bit different. 00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:02.360 Oh yes, absolutely. 00:18:02.360 --> 00:18:06.400 So it's like, I don't know, Postgres 13, 14 and so on and so on. 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.620 At the same time, like, you know, kind of obviously technology changes. 00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:14.520 And even if we're not talking bugs, but just plant deprecations, that there might be some disruption 00:18:14.520 --> 00:18:17.840 when, whether, you know, upgrading to a newer Python version. 00:18:17.840 --> 00:18:22.940 Nowadays, much smoother than it was between Python 2 and Python 3. 00:18:22.940 --> 00:18:24.540 So it shouldn't be a big deal. 00:18:24.540 --> 00:18:29.460 But it might be a deal depending on what third party libraries you're using. 00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:31.940 So yeah, obviously there's considerations for you, 00:18:31.940 --> 00:18:37.020 which is why we would like you to test with 3.12, like in your CIs and so on and so on. 00:18:37.020 --> 00:18:37.520 It's already there. 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.440 Just put it as a run target. 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:41.340 Yes. 00:18:41.340 --> 00:18:46.040 But you know, kind of when it, when it comes to third party projects, I am usually very boring. 00:18:46.040 --> 00:18:52.300 And, you know, kind of, I was the last person from my friends to actually adopt VS Code and 00:18:52.300 --> 00:18:54.180 the last person to adopt Phish. 00:18:54.180 --> 00:19:00.320 You know, like I was happily with Bash and then I switched to ZSH just at the time when it started 00:19:00.320 --> 00:19:02.740 being boring, you know, and I was like, come on, really? 00:19:03.100 --> 00:19:08.180 I kind of like my work to actually not depend on something that is extremely volatile. 00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:09.740 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:10.020 Yeah. 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:14.620 And I think it goes back to what Cecil was saying earlier about needing to have some sort of like 00:19:14.620 --> 00:19:16.560 framework for how you make these decisions. 00:19:16.560 --> 00:19:22.240 And so I think that it's important to call out that a lot of times you need, you need a base set 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:24.700 of criteria when you're evaluating a tool, right? 00:19:24.700 --> 00:19:29.280 Like, please like check the license, make sure that you're even allowed to use this thing for 00:19:29.280 --> 00:19:30.080 whatever you're doing. 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:35.160 And then a lot of it kind of gets into that risk tolerance where it sounds like Lukash probably 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.380 is on like the very stable side of it versus the leading edge side, you know? 00:19:39.380 --> 00:19:43.280 And so you've got to say, do I care about doing the new and exciting thing? 00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:47.920 Or like, should I make the obvious choice to make sure that I have that long-term stability 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:53.680 that you would get from, you know, choosing Django over FAPS API sort of situation? 00:19:54.260 --> 00:19:55.140 Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:56.540 Gareth, how about you? 00:19:56.540 --> 00:20:00.740 You got some examples of decisions you had to make as your CTO role? 00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:05.220 I'm just thinking I'm very much in Lukash's world of boring is good. 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:08.500 So, you know, it's, you always want to go for the tried and tested. 00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:14.080 If it's product, there's a marked difference between working in production and working in 00:20:14.080 --> 00:20:16.960 the, in the wider, in, in learning mode. 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:21.220 So you've got Cecil's world of pulling the latest stuff, trying out new technology and playing. 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.280 But if you're going to build a web frame, build a web app, then it's going to be hard 00:20:25.280 --> 00:20:29.340 not to choose Flask or Django still, because it's there, it's around. 00:20:29.340 --> 00:20:32.280 And at the moment, all my, all my current examples. 00:20:32.280 --> 00:20:37.720 So I, I'm currently at a company called My Energy and we process huge amounts of user data 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.860 and we paid a company to write a platform for us. 00:20:40.860 --> 00:20:44.780 And it feels like they just went through npm and installed anything they ever wanted all 00:20:44.780 --> 00:20:45.300 the time. 00:20:45.300 --> 00:20:47.740 And now we're unpicking a load of... 00:20:47.740 --> 00:20:49.020 NPM install star, let's go. 00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:49.620 Yeah. 00:20:49.620 --> 00:20:54.420 And it, you know, and it feels like they're playing a drinking game with type, with TypeScript 00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:57.780 and this bit's functional and this bit's object orientated. 00:20:57.780 --> 00:21:02.400 And so, you know, picking technologies, not just picking technologies, picking paradigms. 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:03.300 So it's TypeScript. 00:21:03.300 --> 00:21:04.000 That's great. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.100 But is it functional? 00:21:05.100 --> 00:21:06.060 Is it object orientated? 00:21:06.060 --> 00:21:07.280 Is it procedural? 00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:10.640 And the answer is this bit is, and this bit isn't, and this bit's over here. 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.520 And then we need a type boat. 00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:13.620 We need an ORM. 00:21:13.620 --> 00:21:18.340 So it feels like they pull in the only ORM that they've seen in a tutorial that somebody, 00:21:18.340 --> 00:21:19.500 somebody's written. 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:22.380 So we've got TypeORM, which doesn't do migrations and you're stuck. 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:27.760 And we've got a massive pile of technical debt on a brand new project, which you're having 00:21:27.760 --> 00:21:31.180 to unpick because no one consciously chose the projects. 00:21:31.180 --> 00:21:32.180 Or is it known? 00:21:32.180 --> 00:21:40.120 In my last gig, we spent a lot of time because I've got horror stories about Zoop. 00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:45.440 But there's, you know, we spent a lot of time choosing the right framework and having the 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:50.280 right reasons and put in a lot of effort into writing proof of concepts because we knew the 00:21:50.280 --> 00:21:51.000 traffic demands. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:52.080 We knew what we were doing. 00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:56.640 And we went Flask and we went certain technologies in AWS. 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:57.480 We went Docker. 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:03.100 We went and just follow this route through choosing things to be stable and scalable, not necessarily 00:22:03.100 --> 00:22:05.580 the latest and greatest, not necessarily the most cutting edge. 00:22:05.580 --> 00:22:09.080 We just wanted to make sure it was, we could develop on it. 00:22:09.080 --> 00:22:13.500 And even then we chose, badly chose a library because somebody followed tutorial. 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:18.120 We didn't really think about end up using a REST framework that got deprecated. 00:22:18.120 --> 00:22:23.440 And so, you know, there's, you have to put the effort into choosing the right things and 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:25.820 be okay with going, I don't care if we're not cutting edge. 00:22:25.820 --> 00:22:29.740 We let Cecil be cutting edge and go and play in his dev advocate role. 00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:33.380 And then once it's in production in other places, then you use it. 00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:33.660 Yeah. 00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:37.540 This distinction between like, what do you choose in production and what you choose other 00:22:37.540 --> 00:22:37.880 places. 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.980 Also, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be just learning, right? 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:44.540 It could be, well, here's some tools that just like kind of pull in data and process it. 00:22:44.540 --> 00:22:48.980 But if it's not perfect, it, the website is not going to go down and we're not going to 00:22:48.980 --> 00:22:53.520 lose, you know, a thousand dollars a second until somebody fixes that type of situation, 00:22:53.520 --> 00:22:53.760 right? 00:22:53.760 --> 00:22:55.500 It's, oh, somebody's got to fix the ETL. 00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:01.360 Well, and I think that's another big part of it is in most companies, your job or your 00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:05.680 function with the company is not supporting a web framework or building out features within 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:06.780 a web framework. 00:23:06.780 --> 00:23:12.480 You're trying to implement whatever business logic you need beyond that. 00:23:12.840 --> 00:23:17.560 So going to something tried and true or older is going to let you do that. 00:23:17.560 --> 00:23:20.940 And it may not exactly meet your use case. 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:26.900 But like Lukash was saying, once you have enough, once that's, if you have enough revenue, 00:23:26.900 --> 00:23:27.800 that that's a problem. 00:23:27.800 --> 00:23:31.800 If you're Instagram or Facebook, well, that's a good problem to have. 00:23:31.800 --> 00:23:33.480 You can deal with it at that point. 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:34.000 Yeah. 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:35.000 Yeah, absolutely. 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:38.660 Well, and for you, Dan, the situation might be a little bit different as well. 00:23:38.660 --> 00:23:40.960 Being more doing like ML type of things. 00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:43.360 There's less tried and true, right? 00:23:43.360 --> 00:23:43.620 Yeah. 00:23:43.620 --> 00:23:48.400 The ML of two years ago is laughed at by the ML of today, right? 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:48.820 Yeah. 00:23:48.820 --> 00:23:49.940 It's changing so fast. 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:52.800 It's hard to say we're going to pick stable because you give up a lot by doing that. 00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:53.660 Yeah, for sure. 00:23:53.660 --> 00:23:55.340 A lot of stuff we worked on. 00:23:55.340 --> 00:24:01.960 And I think some of it is that I've spoken with folks who are building ML companies and 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:07.360 they're like, yeah, the scale you're operating at is like 10 times or 100 times anything 00:24:07.360 --> 00:24:11.180 we've run for something that's an ML as a service platform. 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:17.280 So we've had to build out some things where kind of existing frameworks didn't cut it for 00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:21.720 us, but it was first, can we actually use those existing frameworks? 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.800 Because we ideally, we're not an ML platform company. 00:24:26.800 --> 00:24:32.940 We want to use whatever the framework is we can because that will get us our job done. 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:40.180 Only when we can't do that, did we really need to go custom and kind of build things 00:24:40.180 --> 00:24:40.860 out for scale. 00:24:40.860 --> 00:24:46.760 It's easy to get into thinking like my job is to put this to work and make this framework 00:24:46.760 --> 00:24:49.000 as awesome as possible or to get it going just right. 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.300 And really it's to deliver functionality to a business, right? 00:24:52.300 --> 00:24:53.580 That's just a means to an end. 00:24:53.580 --> 00:24:54.880 So yeah, for sure. 00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:58.400 I could maybe, maybe just a thought on that that began to be when we were talking about 00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:58.840 boring. 00:24:58.840 --> 00:25:03.860 The other thing that kind of can be very tempting is if me or I, the team, I come across 00:25:03.860 --> 00:25:05.120 a new fantastic tool. 00:25:05.120 --> 00:25:06.080 I think this looks great. 00:25:06.080 --> 00:25:06.860 Let's use this. 00:25:06.860 --> 00:25:10.420 I've been half an hour reading a tutorial that's going to point it out. 00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:11.880 I know everything there is to know about it. 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:12.580 It must be great. 00:25:12.580 --> 00:25:13.980 I work it into the project. 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:14.980 We don't touch it. 00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:16.080 You know, we make it work. 00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:17.420 We don't touch it for a week after that. 00:25:17.420 --> 00:25:21.300 Then I'm on leave three weeks from now on the beach somewhere and it goes wrong. 00:25:21.300 --> 00:25:24.020 Have I bothered to tell the rest of my team how this thing works? 00:25:24.080 --> 00:25:27.460 Because I've chosen something that isn't boring, you know, that doesn't fit in with 00:25:27.460 --> 00:25:28.660 the stuff the rest of us all know. 00:25:28.660 --> 00:25:30.240 And now there's a huge problem there. 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:32.240 So there's, you want to give a bit of thought to that as well. 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:33.880 You want to be consistent with the stuff you use. 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:38.040 Sometimes, as Gareth was saying, in terms of paradigm, there might be shiny toys that 00:25:38.040 --> 00:25:39.180 don't fit in with the rest of it. 00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:41.040 And I'm afraid you've got to leave the shiny toy behind. 00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:44.280 Unless, I mean, for, again, we are talking in the, what you're paid to do. 00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:47.460 So it's obviously the toy you own and your own bat, shiny toy away. 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:47.860 Yeah. 00:25:47.860 --> 00:25:50.300 You got to think about the team buy-in as well. 00:25:50.300 --> 00:25:52.100 If our group's going to be using it, right? 00:25:52.260 --> 00:25:57.560 We fund development sprints and we fund hack days to play with things. 00:25:57.560 --> 00:26:02.720 So let's get, if you've got an idea for, you know, do you fancy using FastAPI? 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:07.840 Then let's build a small thing in it and we'll put a small project in, see how it works, see 00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:08.400 how it deploys. 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:13.420 But don't bet the farm on it until you're certain about it. 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:15.180 That's a great, great way to do it, right? 00:26:15.180 --> 00:26:17.580 It's sort of a more structured way to experiment. 00:26:17.580 --> 00:26:20.820 So I'll share a quick story with you all here. 00:26:20.820 --> 00:26:24.720 Recently, I wanted to re-kindle my blogging. 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:25.500 I don't know. 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:28.540 Social media and places are a little scrambled these days. 00:26:28.540 --> 00:26:32.140 So I thought it might be a good idea to have something written as well that I can point to. 00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:36.260 So I went to make this website and I thought it's something simple, something marked down, 00:26:36.260 --> 00:26:36.960 something static. 00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:39.760 And I don't know, I've done that. 00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:41.620 My last blog was on WordPress. 00:26:41.620 --> 00:26:43.720 I don't want to use WordPress anymore. 00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:47.340 I don't want to have a database for my blog. 00:26:47.340 --> 00:26:48.460 That seems like overkill. 00:26:48.460 --> 00:26:51.780 So I'm like, all right, well, what do I do to decide? 00:26:51.780 --> 00:26:59.380 So I went out to the community and I asked, hey, I'm thinking about this static website blog thing. 00:26:59.380 --> 00:27:02.460 Python tools preferred, but I'm open for anything. 00:27:02.620 --> 00:27:05.100 And Kim, I think you even maybe weighed in on this thread over here. 00:27:05.100 --> 00:27:05.840 I think I did, you know. 00:27:05.840 --> 00:27:06.760 Yeah, I think you did. 00:27:06.760 --> 00:27:09.360 And I got a bunch of different feedback. 00:27:09.360 --> 00:27:15.560 And so my solution to sort of exploring this place where I felt a little unqualified, 00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:18.940 I didn't have really much experience with, was to go out and ask. 00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:22.100 And the answer I got back really surprised me. 00:27:22.100 --> 00:27:24.620 I thought, well, maybe it's going to be Pelican or Ghost. 00:27:24.620 --> 00:27:28.380 But a bunch of people started saying, Hugo, Hugo, this thing is Hugo. 00:27:28.380 --> 00:27:29.160 It's amazing. 00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:32.980 Obviously, there were people saying Pelican and Sphinx and whatnot. 00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:41.420 So I ended up going with Hugo, which was a bit of a struggle for me to decide because it's unbelievably good. 00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:42.900 Kim, are you using Hugo as well? 00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:44.280 Yes, yeah, for a couple of things. 00:27:44.280 --> 00:27:45.260 It's glorious. 00:27:45.260 --> 00:27:48.400 It's so nice for writing, but it's written in Go. 00:27:48.520 --> 00:27:50.520 And so it's like, well, can I? 00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:53.720 I can't really fix it or tweak it as easily. 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:55.720 But in the end, I decided, you know what? 00:27:55.720 --> 00:28:00.200 It's more important to have something that works really, really good that has got a lot of popular support 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:03.540 than having something that is in a language I'm an expert in. 00:28:03.540 --> 00:28:05.760 So I'd kind of like to hear your all thought. 00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:08.480 If you're in that kind of situation, what's your process? 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:09.680 How do you come to these decisions? 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:17.860 Well, I kind of redesigned my own blog when I kind of got the new job because it's like, oh, I need to communicate. 00:28:17.860 --> 00:28:19.960 So I went through a similar process. 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:28.240 What I ended up doing is, and you know, obviously it's a super anti-pattern, but it turned out to be super successful, which is just write your own. 00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:31.880 And obviously everybody writes their own static site generator. 00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:43.680 But like, I'll be honest with you, like with Python in 2020 and 2021 and 2022 now, like it is so simple because they're like all the building blocks are there. 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:47.800 Like you're not, you're not writing strings of HTML into a file. 00:28:47.800 --> 00:28:51.320 Like, you know, like all of those kind of building blocks are done for you. 00:28:51.460 --> 00:29:04.820 And just let me bring up like for you how big my huge site generator is because it's like, it's super tiny, but it actually handles like everything I wanted to the extent where I'm using it for a couple of sites right now. 00:29:04.820 --> 00:29:11.440 And it's like what, and it's under 2000 lines of code at the moment, like the entire thing. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:13.320 So it's like, it's not super big. 00:29:13.320 --> 00:29:17.300 And it was growing like, you know, in time when I was adding new stuff to it. 00:29:17.300 --> 00:29:22.440 For example, at first I just did not have RSS at all because I was like, this thing is dead. 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.340 Like nobody needs RSS anymore. 00:29:24.340 --> 00:29:28.660 And then a bunch of people just told, tell me like, Hey, like, why don't you have RSS? 00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:34.860 So I just added it like later on, you know, and it's just what, like, oh, we have XML in the standard library. 00:29:34.860 --> 00:29:37.360 And there's actually like, yeah, RSS libraries too. 00:29:37.360 --> 00:29:38.700 But like, this is so simple. 00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:42.000 You just have like, you know, this one template that you need to output. 00:29:42.280 --> 00:29:48.700 So, you know, kind of, I did my own thing and I can now write on the footer of the site that was generated with Python 3.10. 00:29:48.700 --> 00:29:51.040 I should just recreate the virtual. 00:29:51.040 --> 00:29:54.500 And so I'll, I'll be able to say 3.11, but you know, kind of. 00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:55.660 Then you'll be cutting edge. 00:29:55.660 --> 00:29:56.260 So yes. 00:29:56.260 --> 00:30:08.820 But like the reason why I actually did this was that all the notes that you're seeing there, you know, kind of, if you feel like click through the thing, like they are in fact, like in Markdown in my notes. 00:30:08.820 --> 00:30:10.820 So I'm kind of crazy about having notes. 00:30:10.820 --> 00:30:13.200 So like, I have a lot of them, right? 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:20.880 So I have like thousands of them and they're like all in Markdown and like in a Git repository, synchronized over to my phone and whatever. 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.640 So I can always just access them in a plane or whatever. 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:31.360 So those are just tagged hashtag public in the Markdown text and they appear on the website and it's kind of automatic. 00:30:31.360 --> 00:30:34.220 So I don't actually have like a CMS for this. 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:38.680 I just have my notes app that I'm using is FS notes is open source. 00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:39.740 It works on the Mac. 00:30:39.740 --> 00:30:41.020 It's glorious. 00:30:41.020 --> 00:30:49.360 And it's also, you know, on iOS and, you know, and you just kind of generate HTML out of that, which is pretty simple. 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:59.340 And I can automate a bunch of stuff with this just kind of custom made, which with Hugo, I probably could do, but, you know, I would have to learn how, and I already know Python. 00:30:59.340 --> 00:31:03.880 So it was really, it really took me no time to get this up there. 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.800 And it kind of works on the phone and it's okay. 00:31:06.800 --> 00:31:11.340 It's not, it's not going to kind of wow you, but it's a perfectly functional website, you know. 00:31:11.340 --> 00:31:11.600 Yeah. 00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:16.120 Jay out of the audience says, building your own static site generator is a great way to learn a lot about language. 00:31:16.120 --> 00:31:19.280 I learned a lot for you just maintaining my own static. 00:31:19.280 --> 00:31:23.140 I mean, choosing static sites is an interesting choice on its own, right? 00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:29.220 It's the DevOps story is incredibly nice that you don't have to worry about, you know, will the database go down? 00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:33.580 What, what kind of problem is, you know, it's, it's either going to be there or it's just not there. 00:31:33.580 --> 00:31:35.420 Will the database go down? 00:31:35.420 --> 00:31:48.400 The unspoken, the unconsidered problem until you're in the DevOps space on a non-static site is when your internal department would like us version of the site, they can change the CMS on to make sure it all looks good before they roll it to production. 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:52.920 Now you've got to get database exports across into a different database, or you've got to get migrations going. 00:31:52.920 --> 00:32:02.640 But I had, not that I would ever do a thing like this, but you might have to have two versions of Docker running in direct production so that you can do a live MySQL copy of MySQL files from one to the other. 00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.560 There you go. 00:32:03.560 --> 00:32:04.620 I would never do that. 00:32:04.620 --> 00:32:05.640 Of course, of course. 00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:11.400 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by Sentry. 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:14.260 How would you like to remove a little stress from your life? 00:32:14.260 --> 00:32:20.260 Do you worry that users may be encountering errors, slowdowns, or crashes with your app right now? 00:32:20.260 --> 00:32:23.300 Would you even know it until they sent you that support email? 00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:33.720 How much better would it be to have the error or performance details immediately sent to you, including the call stack and values of local variables and the active user recorded in the report? 00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:37.120 With Sentry, this is not only possible, it's simple. 00:32:37.120 --> 00:32:40.700 In fact, we use Sentry on all the Talk Python web properties. 00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:47.240 We've actually fixed a bug triggered by a user and had the upgrade ready to roll out as we got the support email. 00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:49.220 That was a great email to write back. 00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.620 Hey, we already saw your error and have already rolled out the fix. 00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:54.040 Imagine their surprise. 00:32:54.040 --> 00:32:56.240 Surprise and delight your users. 00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:00.300 Create your Sentry account at talkpython.fm/sentry. 00:33:00.580 --> 00:33:11.980 And if you sign up with the code Talk Python, all one word, it's good for two free months of Sentry's business plan, which will give you up to 20 times as many monthly events as well as other features. 00:33:11.980 --> 00:33:16.380 Create better software, delight your users, and support the podcast. 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:21.360 Visit talkpython.fm/sentry and use the coupon code Talk Python. 00:33:24.040 --> 00:33:25.500 But it's also unhackable. 00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:26.720 That's an interesting... 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:27.180 There is that. 00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:30.140 Yeah, the worst thing that could happen is it could deface. 00:33:30.140 --> 00:33:30.940 It could get defaced. 00:33:30.940 --> 00:33:39.200 I guess somebody could put some JavaScript malware on it if they took it over, but it's not open to little Bobby tables or denial of service to a large degree. 00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:39.700 You're right. 00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:40.440 That's a good point. 00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:41.320 Hard to hack. 00:33:41.320 --> 00:33:42.420 Very hard to hack. 00:33:43.220 --> 00:33:49.440 Well, for me, the most important thing that this literally just runs on the free tier, like on Netlify, and, you know, it just... 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:49.580 Yeah. 00:33:49.580 --> 00:33:50.280 It's good. 00:33:50.280 --> 00:33:56.300 Mine is on Netlify as well, and I gotta say, it's really, really a relieving nice thing. 00:33:56.300 --> 00:34:01.620 One comment that we were making about picking a library, something that you pointed out and that Luke was just saying as well. 00:34:01.620 --> 00:34:04.900 There is something to be said for making sure you can fix it if it breaks. 00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:08.120 But I think to the large degree, it depends on how... 00:34:08.120 --> 00:34:09.500 I suppose it depends on several things. 00:34:09.500 --> 00:34:12.720 How important the thing is to you, how quickly you can change it if it does break. 00:34:13.120 --> 00:34:16.020 And how kind of big the thing is. 00:34:16.020 --> 00:34:25.600 It never occurred to me, for example, using Hugo, it didn't worry me too much that I don't know any go and I can't fix it because it's a big enough tool that I can probably make it do what I want. 00:34:25.600 --> 00:34:27.360 But I've got pretty simple needs. 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:40.180 If I was picking a very fast, something really low level in kind of my previous C life, for example, to talk to the flash memory as fast as I can, I'd probably want to write that because, or at least know that I can fix the thing I got. 00:34:40.180 --> 00:34:42.620 Because maybe I need to be able to tweak it or otherwise. 00:34:43.020 --> 00:34:44.680 It also depends on what you need the thing for. 00:34:44.680 --> 00:34:46.560 How much does it matter? 00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:48.100 Whether you can tweak it or not. 00:34:48.100 --> 00:34:50.980 It's supposed to depend largely on how important it becomes to your project. 00:34:50.980 --> 00:34:56.180 The downside, of course, when you do that decision six months later and it's super important, now you're stuck. 00:34:56.180 --> 00:34:57.200 Now you're on the hook. 00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:58.360 I'm like you. 00:34:58.360 --> 00:34:59.180 I don't know any go. 00:34:59.180 --> 00:34:59.940 Not really. 00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:03.180 I mean, I've read like a paragraph of sample code to know what it looks like. 00:35:03.180 --> 00:35:03.840 But that's about it. 00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:12.020 But for me, it was okay to pick Hugo that is a go tool because it's not actually running while you interact with my website. 00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:20.260 If I was picking a go alternative to Flask, that would be a really big consideration because I'd have to kind of write code and live in it. 00:35:20.260 --> 00:35:24.080 Here's the thing I run on the command line and it either makes the static site or it doesn't. 00:35:24.180 --> 00:35:28.040 So it's not, you know, in the important path of interactions. 00:35:28.040 --> 00:35:29.920 You could swap it out without your website breaking. 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:35.280 The end result will still be up and live on the website while you're replacing Hugo with something else if you want to. 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:35.640 Yeah, exactly. 00:35:35.640 --> 00:35:36.880 There's a consideration there. 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.580 Go down the Lucas route and try to recreate the same look and feel. 00:35:40.580 --> 00:35:41.480 Yeah. 00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:51.580 So unlikely it would break and not be fixed by core Hugo devs or like the surface of the application is relatively well defined. 00:35:51.900 --> 00:36:04.360 That brings me to the next thing here is when you go to an open source project and you find it on GitHub, how much does stuff like this Hugo thing has been forked 7,000 times and has 64,000 stars? 00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:06.800 Like, okay, if it breaks, someone else will fix it. 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:07.820 Not my problem. 00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:13.480 If it had six stars and it breaks, it might be my problem if it breaks, even though it's not my project. 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:20.920 How do you all think about that when you are choosing projects or Emily or Cecil in your case is recommending technologies? 00:36:21.240 --> 00:36:23.760 Yeah, I think for me, this is just my personal opinion. 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:27.120 Like things like forks and stars are like vanity metrics for me. 00:36:27.120 --> 00:36:29.100 Like I don't really care, to be honest with you. 00:36:29.100 --> 00:36:34.800 I do care if, you know, it, one, it solves the problem I'm trying to deal with. 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:42.420 You know, can I submit an issue and get, you know, relatively like within six months, like someone answered me fairly quickly. 00:36:42.420 --> 00:36:43.940 Like I don't want to wait for a response. 00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:48.040 And, you know, is it, is it, you know, are there commits being, even to that too, right? 00:36:48.040 --> 00:36:49.440 Like when I say, are there commits being made? 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.800 You don't need to be making commits like every day and every hour or every week or every month. 00:36:53.800 --> 00:37:04.060 If I see the, like the last commit was like five years ago, I'm like, okay, well, if I have a problem, I don't know if this is the thing that I need to dump into because I don't know if I'm going to be able to get the support that I need. 00:37:04.120 --> 00:37:10.240 Well, you still might take it, but then you would have to take it on the assumption that you might have to write the fix or add the feature. 00:37:10.240 --> 00:37:10.660 Sure. 00:37:10.660 --> 00:37:13.040 So I'm going to use you as an example, Michael. 00:37:13.040 --> 00:37:19.500 So if you decided to go with Hugo and there was an issue with Hugo and you don't know go and you're like, oh shoot, what am I going to do? 00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:24.660 Now you're going to be in a position that you can either learn go or you're going to swap it out and go with something else. 00:37:24.660 --> 00:37:24.880 Right. 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.280 But, you know, like, what do you, what do you do? 00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.200 I think I'd rather rewrite it from scratch than learn go. 00:37:30.200 --> 00:37:31.080 Well, see, so see. 00:37:31.080 --> 00:37:32.720 Not that I hate go or anything. 00:37:32.820 --> 00:37:37.540 I just like, you know, I think thinking of just a time effort sort of trade off, you know? 00:37:37.540 --> 00:37:37.860 Yeah. 00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:43.040 So again, for me, it's mainly just about like, how do we like, does it solve the thing that I want to solve? 00:37:43.040 --> 00:37:48.740 And then can I get like some level of support, you know, questions answered and documentation and stuff like that? 00:37:48.740 --> 00:37:48.880 Yeah. 00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:53.440 So when I looked at this, you know, commit last commit yesterday, there's a bunch of issues. 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:58.880 But if you look at, say, the closed ones, there were issues closed a couple hours ago. 00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:02.400 Full requests, I suspect probably those are linked together. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:02.700 Right. 00:38:02.700 --> 00:38:04.940 So there's clearly the life in this project. 00:38:04.940 --> 00:38:06.780 And to me, that probably is enough. 00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:07.740 How about the rest of you? 00:38:07.740 --> 00:38:08.760 Emily, what do you think? 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:09.820 Yeah, I totally agree. 00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:14.980 I think these are exactly the things that I look at is, you know, are things getting updated or commits getting in? 00:38:14.980 --> 00:38:19.960 You know, if it hasn't had a commit in a year or two, sometimes that's still okay. 00:38:19.960 --> 00:38:20.320 Right. 00:38:20.360 --> 00:38:28.320 Like sometimes you're looking at Django reset password library that like, yeah, it's just, it's continued to work over time. 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.940 And you don't necessarily need new features added to a reset password kind of thing. 00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:35.680 So knowing kind of what you're looking at and what you need out of it, I think is still important. 00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:37.000 But I totally agree. 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.460 You know, forks and stars, even downloads are kind of vanity metrics. 00:38:40.720 --> 00:38:45.560 I also think that something else that I always look at is, what is the audience of the tool, right? 00:38:45.560 --> 00:39:02.680 So Hugo is very much geared towards a community of people building for, you know, mass numbers to use it versus a tool that maybe, you know, Lukash's static site generator is probably very tuned to the things that he needs to do with it, that he could opt to open source it. 00:39:02.680 --> 00:39:05.880 But it's not going to be a tool for the message. 00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:07.480 We have a visual decline. 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:09.460 Just a, hmm, no, enough projects. 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:18.980 Knowing what you're getting out of it and knowing like what that sort of feature roadmap is going to be, either it's like, it is at a stable point and it's not going to change. 00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:29.220 This is something that is going to be very opinionated for someone's specific use case versus like Hugo is going to continue adding functionality that would serve a broader group of people. 00:39:29.220 --> 00:39:33.920 And just using that as part of your metrics for deciding if that tool fits your needs. 00:39:34.140 --> 00:39:44.860 One thing that I used to do is I look if the last comment on the thing doesn't need to be super recent, but like, is the build red or green? 00:39:44.860 --> 00:39:51.980 And if it's red and like, I'm like, you know, I don't like seeing red in the last comment on the project I want to use. 00:39:52.200 --> 00:40:02.320 And often if that would be a critical dependency, I would in fact just clone it locally and just try to just build it and see if tests pass on my end. 00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:03.300 And if they do good. 00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:12.500 And if I cannot download some dependencies or like pytest has like 15, you know, failures or whatever else, then I'll be like kind of more skeptical now. 00:40:12.500 --> 00:40:21.440 Because obviously if you are installing a package with pip install, unlike with CPAN in the Perl universe, you run no tests. 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:26.340 So you kind of only the only thing you know is that the files were put in the right place. 00:40:26.340 --> 00:40:30.740 But whether they are going to work, well, you're just going to find out like at runtime, I guess. 00:40:30.740 --> 00:40:31.320 So yeah. 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:35.360 So like every now and again, I would just try to build something when I actually depend on it. 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:48.260 But, you know, kind of that's if it's really critical because all of the dependencies like, yes, like even downloads are a vanity metric because if, you know, push comes to shove, I can just vendor in the dependency and fix it myself. 00:40:48.260 --> 00:40:52.620 Well, there's also a project that you have a little involvement with that it's got a few downloads, right? 00:40:52.620 --> 00:40:53.400 Yeah. 00:40:53.400 --> 00:41:02.220 So like when Emily said that it's a vanity metric, like my heart was, you know, like kind of hit like right in the middle because, yeah, I live by those downloads, man. 00:41:02.220 --> 00:41:03.160 Like it's awesome. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:06.240 I have never expected this to go so big. 00:41:06.240 --> 00:41:12.320 So like, you know, it's still sometimes like I would just like sit and drink coffee and just suddenly think, how did that ever happen? 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:13.760 It's just, you know, it's mind blowing. 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:22.420 But actually, so I didn't mention it, but I think that this is a really good example of a library that is very clear about what you're getting from it, right? 00:41:22.420 --> 00:41:29.540 Like uncompromising code formatter, like it's very clear that it's very opinionated and that a lot of it came from you. 00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:43.500 And, you know, the joke that I was going to make is like, you know, with Black, like, even if you need setups.cfg support, you are not going to be able to just add it and open a PR and get it merged in. 00:41:43.620 --> 00:42:01.280 So like, again, knowing what you're getting into of and I think that a lot of this opens up a conversation on the other side of this for open source maintainers of being aware and being cautious and being clear to your users of what you're putting out there to say, look, hey, I'm not going to maintain this. 00:42:01.340 --> 00:42:02.600 This is just something that's here. 00:42:02.600 --> 00:42:04.300 If you like it, use it. 00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:04.600 Great. 00:42:04.600 --> 00:42:11.780 But, you know, taking that extra step to make sure that you're telling people what you are willing to take on as a maintainer as well. 00:42:11.780 --> 00:42:18.600 For Black maintenance in particular, the fun thing was that I gathered like a team of people who are maintaining it now. 00:42:18.680 --> 00:42:34.500 And like, I do relatively little these days, honestly, like there's a bunch of people who are super like, you know, active and they make, they actually kind of shook me out of this kind of psychological block to like, you know, a stable version has to be perfect. 00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:35.620 We will never get there. 00:42:35.620 --> 00:42:41.920 And, you know, like over 2021, we churned out a lot of releases and now like, yeah, Black is stable. 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:42.440 It's amazing. 00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:51.560 So another kind of consideration that you might have when you're looking at a library or a tool that you might use is like, is the bus factor one? 00:42:51.560 --> 00:42:59.760 Is there just like one stressed guy who just tries to kind of make it work after hours or like, are there a few people responding on the issues? 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:02.580 You know, like, is there more than one person with the keys to the kingdom? 00:43:02.580 --> 00:43:08.260 Because sometimes if you lose the keys for whatever reason, like it's, you know, very disruptive. 00:43:08.260 --> 00:43:18.860 Like we had a bunch of libraries like that in the Python world where forks were necessary because, you know, the original maintainers like lost interest or life or whatever else. 00:43:18.860 --> 00:43:20.780 So, you know, things, things happen. 00:43:20.780 --> 00:43:27.500 I cannot really say that, you know, I did anything like that, like, you know, kind of, well, like I planned for it. 00:43:27.500 --> 00:43:32.080 Like it mostly happened by accident because it just had like nice contributors that I liked. 00:43:32.080 --> 00:43:36.720 So I just shared the right access with them and they ended up being very trustworthy. 00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:43.820 But, you know, a maintainer should do that at some point because you cannot just do everything, you know, by yourself. 00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:44.800 It's just impossible. 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:46.300 The bus factor is interesting. 00:43:46.300 --> 00:44:04.900 There was this guy who had an npm project, JavaScript project, who had done some kind of like protesting thing, like swapped out his project to just print stuff infinitely and some kind of just really frustrated that it was Color.js and Faker.js. 00:44:04.900 --> 00:44:09.260 And it was really frustrated that companies were using the project and not paying for it. 00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:11.780 It was open source under like MIT or something. 00:44:11.780 --> 00:44:13.440 But, you know, that was his take. 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:18.680 But then had a full on breakdown and got arrested for creating bombs in Queens, New York. 00:44:18.680 --> 00:44:20.140 That's an extreme example. 00:44:20.140 --> 00:44:21.300 But it can happen. 00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:22.360 Something could happen, right? 00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:27.400 Like, or, you know, somebody could just get actually in an accident or they could have a health crisis, right? 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:28.900 Like, could be a place where it stops. 00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:30.440 So, considering that is... 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:48.840 On the topic of bus factor for that matter, which, I mean, I think fairly obviously what it means, just in case anybody needs a definition, you know, if you're the guy, if you're the only person who knows how it works and you get hit by a bus tomorrow and you spend four weeks in hospital in the somewhat sanitized version of the theory, can somebody pick it up after you? 00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:57.400 And I think one of the things that does feed into picking tech stacks and tech stacks and so forth is the bus factor on the libraries and so forth is quite important. 00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:08.220 But what's also important is if it's a really complicated, super hard to use library or something that you need to be an expert in and you have one of those experts, you suddenly made a bus factor issue there too. 00:45:08.220 --> 00:45:15.400 Because now you need that expert to know what he's doing and be around and not choose to go to another company or be hit by a bus or any of those things. 00:45:15.580 --> 00:45:18.940 There's a consideration there for the complexity of a tool as well. 00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:20.300 Sometimes it's unavoidable. 00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:22.780 Sometimes some things that you have to do are complex. 00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:24.540 But if the tools are... 00:45:24.540 --> 00:45:26.740 If you're constantly picking the hardest thing there is... 00:45:26.740 --> 00:45:27.240 Well, hardest. 00:45:27.240 --> 00:45:32.460 If you're picking the most challenging thing to use because it's the most fun, you might want to be considering that as well. 00:45:32.460 --> 00:45:41.560 How simple is it for somebody else to sit down, pick up your work and keep going with the libraries you've chosen to use is a consideration you should probably be keeping in mind as well. 00:45:41.560 --> 00:45:41.760 Yeah. 00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:54.680 Sounds like Gareth's projects of these hackathons or these group experimental projects might help a little bit to give a little exposure to some of the new tech rather than somebody figured it out in their corner and then just added it. 00:45:54.680 --> 00:45:55.880 And everyone was like, great, it works. 00:45:55.880 --> 00:45:56.340 I love it. 00:45:56.340 --> 00:45:57.300 Yeah. 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:09.380 One of the things I think is interesting there, just talking about the bus factor, it makes me think a lot of times when we're learning stuff, we don't often think about or when we're choosing things, we don't think about the human aspect that's attached to it. 00:46:10.060 --> 00:46:12.300 Which as technologists, it's just not a thing that we do. 00:46:12.300 --> 00:46:13.740 So again, like the bus factor, right? 00:46:13.740 --> 00:46:18.120 Like something bad happens to the person and now what do we do now, right? 00:46:18.120 --> 00:46:19.860 Like what is the next step, right? 00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:20.120 Yeah. 00:46:20.200 --> 00:46:34.380 Another thing that I've noticed a lot, again, like kind of thinking about like the humanity of learning is a lot of the times people choose things because the person to their right and their left, the person, the people that are in their circle of influence are using that thing. 00:46:34.380 --> 00:46:34.760 Right. 00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:36.000 So I'll give you an example. 00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:41.620 Like, so I go to a lot of like senior design showcases at colleges and universities and so on and so forth. 00:46:41.620 --> 00:46:45.380 And when I kind of look and I say, oh, well, why did you pick this language? 00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:46.800 Or why did you pick this cloud? 00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:48.040 Or why did you pick this framework? 00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:50.900 It's usually because the people around them are doing it too. 00:46:50.900 --> 00:46:51.440 Right. 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:59.160 And the reason that is, is now, hey, if I pick the thing that like Michael is using or Emily is using or Kim is using, you know what? 00:46:59.160 --> 00:47:01.180 I have people that I could go ask the question. 00:47:01.180 --> 00:47:01.980 You know what I mean? 00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:05.660 So now I'm going to choose that thing, not because of any technical reason. 00:47:05.660 --> 00:47:08.660 I mean, obviously it has to do the thing I want it to do. 00:47:08.660 --> 00:47:14.340 But like the main reason I chose it is because like socially speaking, like I have people that I could go ask the question. 00:47:14.340 --> 00:47:18.240 And so now my confidence level in that project is a little bit higher because of that reason. 00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:20.800 Yeah, that's a really good, really important factor. 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:31.960 Yeah, I think this hits the nail on the head because like even in Python, like a popular programming language, right, by all standards, we have parts of the standard library that was written by a person. 00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:33.660 And that person is no longer around. 00:47:33.820 --> 00:47:39.040 And now like we obviously can still, we have access to the code, like we have tests that are passing. 00:47:39.040 --> 00:47:41.320 We can still maintain the code, right? 00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:42.360 We can still mutate it. 00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:44.820 We can still make it to different things if we need to. 00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:54.260 But the one missing piece, which is sometimes needed and we don't have it anymore, is why certain, you know, choices were made originally. 00:47:54.680 --> 00:47:58.640 Because that kind of informs where we should go next, right? 00:47:58.640 --> 00:48:06.440 Like if something is kind of uncharacteristically convoluted and you see this and you're like, oh, I would simplify this, right? 00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:16.900 Like, you know, after a while of core development, you're like, every time you want this, there is a reason behind like every kind of, you know, like weird, weird part that you're going to find. 00:48:17.060 --> 00:48:22.040 But if there's nobody to ask the question to, like that complicates things a lot. 00:48:22.040 --> 00:48:35.960 And, you know, we have a bunch of situations where like that, where there's like a stalemate between a few possible approaches because we don't really have an opinion of the original author to go by to, to kind of make a choice. 00:48:36.240 --> 00:48:37.280 It's definitely a challenge. 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:38.480 Gareth, were you trying to jump in there? 00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:39.460 Often as well. 00:48:39.460 --> 00:48:42.400 We make decisions because then it sounds cool. 00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:48.000 But actually the best decision you can make around framework or language is the one your team already knows. 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:53.280 So your default thing should be, don't change unless there is a really good reason to change. 00:48:53.280 --> 00:49:00.900 Because you introduce, you know, I've seen companies have gone, we need to write a thing in Java because the industry does it in Java. 00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:04.600 But all they were was Perl and PHP devs. 00:49:04.600 --> 00:49:08.120 And so suddenly you have an entire stack that your developers can't maintain. 00:49:08.120 --> 00:49:13.720 So it might be the most perfect Java application in history, but no one you employ can actually do anything to it. 00:49:13.720 --> 00:49:15.740 Going a bit back to Cecil's thought, right? 00:49:15.740 --> 00:49:16.520 Keep the humans. 00:49:16.520 --> 00:49:18.900 You've got to deal with it in mind, not just the technology. 00:49:18.900 --> 00:49:19.160 Yeah. 00:49:19.160 --> 00:49:19.980 All right. 00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.700 I want to move on to another topic. 00:49:21.700 --> 00:49:23.040 We're getting short on time here. 00:49:23.040 --> 00:49:24.480 So maybe I'll throw this first to you, Dan. 00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:37.140 So when we were talking about the bus factor, obviously that's a person who is a maintainer of an open source project in the context we were saying before, or as Kim brought in that to like somebody at the company who has that expertise. 00:49:37.140 --> 00:49:51.260 But a really common and big bus factor is a company has a closed source project and they either go out of business or they get disinterested in continuing that project and you're in a bad place. 00:49:51.260 --> 00:49:59.560 So what I wanted to ask you all is how important do you see the open source side of things versus a closed source? 00:49:59.680 --> 00:50:01.880 Like let's say there's some project for a database. 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:03.840 It's twice as good, but it's closed source. 00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.340 Choose it, not choose it, putting money aside. 00:50:06.340 --> 00:50:07.380 Suppose it's free. 00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:12.360 I mean, I guess I generally say is how hard is it to change out for something else? 00:50:12.360 --> 00:50:12.940 Okay. 00:50:12.940 --> 00:50:18.460 Like is it Postgres, but 2x is fast Postgres or Postgres. 00:50:18.460 --> 00:50:18.660 Right. 00:50:18.660 --> 00:50:24.180 Or is it Microsoft SQL server, but it's still relational and you probably just migrate that data to Postgres or something. 00:50:24.180 --> 00:50:31.280 Yeah, I think the risk is really if you're using this and it goes away and then you're stuck. 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:33.580 That is definitely a real risk. 00:50:33.580 --> 00:50:43.420 And I have seen that happen with companies that actually had to rewrite their entire code base because they use something proprietary that then was decided. 00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:43.960 Stopped. 00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:45.220 There's one specifically. 00:50:45.220 --> 00:50:46.540 It's not profitable enough. 00:50:46.540 --> 00:50:48.780 So your project stops. 00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:49.320 Exactly. 00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:49.700 Yeah. 00:50:49.700 --> 00:50:51.740 This one, it was called QA Studio. 00:50:51.740 --> 00:50:56.660 It was a finance, quant finance language, actually by Palantir. 00:50:56.660 --> 00:51:01.000 There was a hedge fund I knew that had fully adopted it. 00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:06.140 And then they actually made the reverse migration to Python after the fact. 00:51:06.140 --> 00:51:06.700 How about the SEO? 00:51:06.700 --> 00:51:07.300 What do you think? 00:51:07.300 --> 00:51:10.060 Well, where is that bar that you cross over? 00:51:10.280 --> 00:51:10.520 Yeah. 00:51:10.520 --> 00:51:16.560 I was reminded about kind of somewhat horrifying experience from my own career that Dan's just reminded me of. 00:51:16.560 --> 00:51:21.060 I've seen it happen with the third party software that the company's bought and then it's no longer available. 00:51:21.060 --> 00:51:33.620 But the other time I've seen it, and it ties into what we were saying about kind of picking things the team knows, is I've come across bits of software where somebody says, well, that's the app that Bob wrote 15 years ago using Visual Basic 4 or whatever it is. 00:51:34.120 --> 00:51:35.280 Nobody knows how to do it. 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:38.480 It doesn't do what we need to do anymore, but we don't have the source. 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:41.120 Even if we did have the source, we don't have a Visual Basic 4 compiler. 00:51:41.120 --> 00:51:42.300 Nobody understands it. 00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:43.720 We don't know how he built it. 00:51:43.720 --> 00:51:44.840 Bob is long gone. 00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:47.380 You need Windows 95 to build it. 00:51:47.380 --> 00:51:48.000 How do we get that? 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:48.580 Well, exactly. 00:51:48.580 --> 00:51:50.140 All those things add up. 00:51:50.140 --> 00:51:54.200 And at the time, it's not to make you sound like Bob was an idiot. 00:51:54.200 --> 00:51:55.940 Bob did what Bob knew. 00:51:55.940 --> 00:51:59.720 Bob knew Visual Basic 4 and somebody said, let's turn out a tool as fast as possible. 00:51:59.900 --> 00:52:09.260 Bob can do it for us today, and Bob did, and the tool works, and it's fine, and you don't think anything about it until way down the line, and nobody knows how to maintain the thing. 00:52:09.260 --> 00:52:13.620 So there's an argument to be had for where do the libraries and so forth you pick. 00:52:13.620 --> 00:52:20.120 If you're not picking things that everybody knows, or at least that huge chunk of you know, sooner or later you run out of people who know how to maintain these things. 00:52:20.120 --> 00:52:24.340 But as I say, not to maliciousness, just through, you know, I need it done fast. 00:52:24.340 --> 00:52:27.900 If you ask Bob to do it fast, Bob's going to do it in Visual Basic 4 because that's what Bob knew. 00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:29.100 And that's fine. 00:52:29.100 --> 00:52:31.340 And that might have been a totally decent choice in 1995. 00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:32.140 Exactly, yeah. 00:52:32.140 --> 00:52:35.660 But it's not in 2022 or, you know, now. 00:52:35.660 --> 00:52:36.760 And code rots. 00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:37.300 It does. 00:52:37.300 --> 00:52:38.340 Over time. 00:52:38.340 --> 00:52:43.580 So, you know, it was the current compiler, but if you don't keep moving it forward, you get to a point you can't move it forward. 00:52:43.580 --> 00:52:51.420 Even if the code would work fine in that old platform, the OS has changed, and it somehow kind of gets a little out of line with that, right? 00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:53.420 CPU architectures change, right? 00:52:53.420 --> 00:52:55.940 So you have to rebuild at some point, and so on and so on. 00:52:55.940 --> 00:52:56.180 Exactly. 00:52:56.180 --> 00:52:57.100 Yeah, absolutely. 00:52:57.100 --> 00:52:59.840 That only helps if you kept up with the ability to do that. 00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:01.440 You decided to keep yourself alive. 00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.620 Now we need to make it run on 64 bits. 00:53:03.620 --> 00:53:08.640 That's what Visual Basic runtime and WebAssembly is all about. 00:53:08.640 --> 00:53:09.300 Let's get going. 00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:13.620 Emily, what's your thought on this? 00:53:13.620 --> 00:53:14.560 Open source. 00:53:14.560 --> 00:53:19.480 I mean, my tendency, obviously, is to choose it as the first choice, but where's the threshold there? 00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:24.200 Yeah, I think a lot of what we do very much lives in that realm of open source. 00:53:24.200 --> 00:53:26.680 But for me, I think it really comes down to portability. 00:53:26.680 --> 00:53:30.040 If it's something that can be easily swapped out, I'm all for it. 00:53:30.100 --> 00:53:32.960 But I see this a lot more with system architectures, right? 00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:38.940 So if you're going to decide to go with AWS RDX, it's Postpress, right? 00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:46.760 You can use the fancy versions and whatnot, but under the hood, it's still Postpress, and you can move that wherever you want to. 00:53:47.180 --> 00:53:55.740 Whereas if you're going to make the decision to go all in on serverless and you're going to write lambdas, that's definitely something that you can theoretically move someplace else. 00:53:55.740 --> 00:53:58.580 But that barrier to portability is a lot higher. 00:53:58.580 --> 00:54:01.080 So that's kind of where I look at it. 00:54:01.080 --> 00:54:06.820 If this thing goes away or for us, a lot of it's like looking at client budgets, right? 00:54:06.820 --> 00:54:13.900 So if this thing costs $10 a month now, but they decide to up their costs and now it's going to cost $1,000 a month. 00:54:14.120 --> 00:54:18.500 Is that something that our client is going to be willing to take on from a financial perspective? 00:54:18.500 --> 00:54:20.520 So yeah, there's a lot to it. 00:54:20.520 --> 00:54:21.960 I try to... 00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:25.540 Yeah, you're sort of touching on another angle that's interesting as well. 00:54:25.540 --> 00:54:27.840 We don't really have time to go into it, unfortunately. 00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:33.440 But even if you have an open source thing, maybe your code is in Python and it's talking to Postgres, 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:36.520 you can get locked into commercial clouds, right? 00:54:36.520 --> 00:54:40.340 Like RDS or Lambda, right? 00:54:40.340 --> 00:54:43.560 While it might still be running your Python, like you can't, like you said, 00:54:43.620 --> 00:54:49.540 you can't just take it and run it somewhere else without rethinking all the little roots of things 00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:53.040 it's going into to hook into the other parts of the cloud there. 00:54:53.040 --> 00:54:56.880 And that's clearly not something you can take as an open source thing and run with. 00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:00.160 So I'll give you the final word on this and then we'll wrap it up. 00:55:00.160 --> 00:55:00.480 Yeah. 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:05.720 One way I kind of think about it is, you know, like there's some things that I care that they're open source 00:55:05.720 --> 00:55:07.860 and other things that I just don't. 00:55:07.860 --> 00:55:11.160 Like as an example, like I use MongoDB randomly. 00:55:11.160 --> 00:55:12.760 I've never looked at the source code. 00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:13.840 I probably am never going to. 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:18.320 Like whether it's open source or not, when I can see the source code or not, like, is it important? 00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:19.060 I don't know. 00:55:19.060 --> 00:55:24.500 Is it the fact that I appreciate that there's community contributions and the discussion happening? 00:55:24.500 --> 00:55:28.460 Maybe that's the important part of the open sourceness that I do care about. 00:55:28.460 --> 00:55:35.060 When I think about smaller projects, when I mean smaller projects, I mean like utility libraries and things of that nature. 00:55:35.060 --> 00:55:41.300 A lot of the times I'll find myself like debugging and actually looking in the code because I might have seen like a weird error message. 00:55:41.300 --> 00:55:43.180 And I'm like, I don't understand what this means. 00:55:43.180 --> 00:55:48.800 Let me try and navigate through, you know, let me get cloned and navigate through it and see what's happening. 00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:49.080 Right. 00:55:49.080 --> 00:55:50.260 In that case, sure. 00:55:50.260 --> 00:55:54.080 I totally care to this open source because I have a problem and I want to try and figure it out. 00:55:54.080 --> 00:55:54.380 Right. 00:55:54.380 --> 00:55:55.820 So I think it really just depends. 00:55:55.900 --> 00:56:02.060 Again, for me more so, like, I really appreciate like when those utility libraries that I'm using are open source so I can figure out what's happening. 00:56:02.060 --> 00:56:07.780 But, you know, major things like, again, I think about Mongo or RabbitMQ or Redis or anything like that. 00:56:07.780 --> 00:56:09.120 Like, I'm never going to look at that source code. 00:56:09.120 --> 00:56:09.760 You know what I mean? 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:10.780 I'm with you on that. 00:56:10.780 --> 00:56:11.180 Yeah. 00:56:11.180 --> 00:56:14.500 I appreciate that they're open source, but I'm not going to try to change it. 00:56:14.500 --> 00:56:14.680 Yeah. 00:56:14.680 --> 00:56:15.860 I'll just probably break it. 00:56:15.860 --> 00:56:17.260 All right. 00:56:17.260 --> 00:56:19.120 Well, this has been a great conversation. 00:56:19.120 --> 00:56:23.420 I'm looking at the notes that we all put together to talk and like we're halfway through it. 00:56:23.420 --> 00:56:24.560 We could just keep going and going. 00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.260 But we only have so much time. 00:56:27.260 --> 00:56:29.200 So what I want to do is I want to close out. 00:56:29.200 --> 00:56:32.260 Normally I ask about editors and cool packages and stuff. 00:56:32.260 --> 00:56:34.760 I want to close this out with a lightning round on one other thing. 00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:41.940 And this final thought is, you know, how much does it matter that we have like really beautiful, say, like landing pages? 00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:49.380 You know, some of these open source projects like Vue.js or Tailwind, they could be, you know, a high end marketing budget spent on them. 00:56:49.380 --> 00:56:52.960 And even, you know, poetry in the Python space has kind of got like a cool little landing page. 00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:55.220 So we're top to bottom here. 00:56:55.220 --> 00:56:56.060 Final thought. 00:56:56.060 --> 00:57:00.320 Give me a, you know, a couple of thoughts real quick on this and then we'll call it a show. 00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:00.860 Dan? 00:57:01.020 --> 00:57:05.200 I think it definitely helps in terms of getting people involved. 00:57:05.200 --> 00:57:07.440 Not necessarily a requirement. 00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:12.600 And in some cases may mask issues with the underlying library. 00:57:12.600 --> 00:57:12.980 Okay. 00:57:13.100 --> 00:57:18.300 Like, I mean, the only thing I can think of is like profit kind of, which had a lot of Facebook. 00:57:18.300 --> 00:57:28.280 It was very fancy Facebook marketing, but there's been some, I think like the Zillow stories and things like that of cases where it wasn't necessarily appropriately used, but it was very fancily marketed. 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:33.080 So I think it's just can be an entree even without full evaluation. 00:57:33.080 --> 00:57:33.400 Right. 00:57:33.400 --> 00:57:37.600 It might actually, maybe the effort should just be put to the code or somewhere else. 00:57:37.600 --> 00:57:39.660 Gareth, what do you think? 00:57:39.660 --> 00:57:41.800 You've seen the Tailwind CSS site. 00:57:41.900 --> 00:57:44.000 Are you ready to swap all your stuff over? 00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:48.380 All I care about is how quickly I get to a demo of it and the documentation. 00:57:48.380 --> 00:57:50.360 So I'm old school. 00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:53.120 So if it's got a man page, I'm probably happier. 00:57:53.120 --> 00:57:56.980 I often find myself looking at them going, that's great. 00:57:56.980 --> 00:57:58.740 I have no idea what it does. 00:57:58.740 --> 00:58:06.400 And I think the fancier the landing page, usually it actually puts me off a bit because I worry that they're putting a lot into it. 00:58:06.400 --> 00:58:08.960 Although I'm paying a lot more in JavaScript at the moment. 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:11.240 They seem to have a lot more fancy landing pages. 00:58:11.660 --> 00:58:15.140 You've got to stand out when there's a new library every week. 00:58:15.140 --> 00:58:15.560 Kim? 00:58:15.560 --> 00:58:15.880 Sure. 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:17.740 I'm pretty much with Gareth there. 00:58:17.740 --> 00:58:22.640 It would be hypocritical of me to expect an open source project to have a pretty page before I can use it. 00:58:22.640 --> 00:58:23.880 Because frankly, I can't do that. 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:28.160 And that's just not reasonable to expect other projects I might consider using to do that. 00:58:28.540 --> 00:58:33.680 The one thing I would agree with Gareth on one thing, what I want to see basically is as fast as possible. 00:58:33.680 --> 00:58:34.680 What is it? 00:58:34.680 --> 00:58:35.940 And how do I use it? 00:58:35.940 --> 00:58:40.340 You know, the marketing dump and stuff is all very nice and well written, but it's less relevant to me. 00:58:40.720 --> 00:58:47.460 The only thing I would argue that turns me off immediately on a big project are ones that go very video heavy without much text. 00:58:47.620 --> 00:58:56.240 If you have angled your project towards here's a video to show you everything you need to know, that's 10 minutes I'm never going to get back if I decide I don't want to use your library. 00:58:56.240 --> 00:58:57.540 You can't skip it easily, no. 00:58:57.540 --> 00:58:58.700 Equivalent text, exactly. 00:58:58.700 --> 00:59:01.900 I could have read the equivalent text six times in the time it took me to watch your video. 00:59:01.900 --> 00:59:05.600 So maybe that's a personal quick, but that's the thing I don't like. 00:59:05.600 --> 00:59:06.600 Yeah, I hear that a lot too. 00:59:06.680 --> 00:59:09.460 For video heavy, it doesn't work for me, I must say. 00:59:09.460 --> 00:59:14.800 Emily, you probably have clients that come with fancy landing pages that they're going to recommend that you start with. 00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:15.340 Yeah, for sure. 00:59:15.340 --> 00:59:18.100 For me, I think, you know, documentation is paramount. 00:59:18.100 --> 00:59:35.840 And I think that a lot of, especially in the Python world, there are a lot of pieces of documentation that feel a little bit, you know, antiquated at this point where it is very much generated off of, you know, maybe some doc strings or, you know, argument types and all that stuff that sometimes it's not the most user friendly. 00:59:36.060 --> 00:59:40.200 So for me, it's like, yeah, I can look at this stuff in the code if I need to. 00:59:40.200 --> 00:59:47.040 So having something that, you know, is either a playground, quick start guide, how to use it, that sort of thing is really important. 00:59:47.040 --> 00:59:58.880 For the landing pages, I feel like it's not necessary, but I think that when a tool does a little bit of the work to show how it's differentiated, that helps me, right? 00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:08.880 So if I can look at something and go, all right, I'm going to look at poetry and they provide some great examples for, you know, why it's faster than this thing, why it looks better than this thing, whatever it is. 01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:13.580 It at least gives me sort of a starting point for, you know, why would I use this tool? 01:00:13.940 --> 01:00:21.840 Obviously, it's all sort of taken with a grain of salt because each tool is going to say that, you know, here are the things that they're best at and kind of hide the things that they're maybe not best at. 01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:27.560 I also think, you know, as you're sitting here on this page and you kind of scroll down and you can see all these sponsors. 01:00:27.560 --> 01:00:29.180 That does matter. Yeah. 01:00:29.340 --> 01:00:34.000 It matters, but it's also something that kind of can make you raise an eyebrow, right? 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.260 So like Vue is great because it's very diverse. 01:00:37.260 --> 01:00:41.960 It's not, you know, a single large company that is sort of powering everything. 01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:49.940 But I do think that that is something to sort of watch for is, you know, who is driving this and what is the reason why it's here? 01:00:49.940 --> 01:00:50.900 Cool. Cecil? 01:00:51.020 --> 01:00:54.420 Yeah, I think like a lot of other folks on this panel, I am not a designer. 01:00:54.420 --> 01:01:01.080 And so I do appreciate the aesthetics of being able to like see things clearly and read them clearly. 01:01:01.080 --> 01:01:05.500 I'm not here for all like the marketing stuff and I'm better because stuff. 01:01:05.500 --> 01:01:06.100 You know what I mean? 01:01:06.100 --> 01:01:10.280 Like I'm usually going to come in and I'm going to look for that getting started button. 01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:11.860 I'm going to look for that docs button. 01:01:11.860 --> 01:01:18.200 I'm going to look for the little code sample that I can copy, paste into VS Code and run kind of thing for the most part. 01:01:18.520 --> 01:01:22.560 But then I also recognize the fact that like really nice documentation takes time. 01:01:22.560 --> 01:01:26.540 And, you know, a lot of open source folks don't always have the time to create that, right? 01:01:26.540 --> 01:01:27.040 Yeah. 01:01:27.040 --> 01:01:28.060 It is a signal. 01:01:28.060 --> 01:01:28.420 Yeah. 01:01:28.420 --> 01:01:31.180 But is that like a metric that we judge them by? 01:01:31.180 --> 01:01:32.100 You know what I mean? 01:01:32.100 --> 01:01:32.640 Yes or no. 01:01:32.640 --> 01:01:33.440 I mean, is that fair? 01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:34.020 You know what I mean? 01:01:34.020 --> 01:01:40.560 Like you can have a really good project, but if you don't have the good documentation, obviously I can't use it the way it's intended to use. 01:01:40.560 --> 01:01:42.480 But like, does that mean that this is not a good project? 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:42.980 I don't know. 01:01:43.380 --> 01:01:50.640 So I feel like, you know, that's obviously a good opportunity for folks to, you know, contribute and send PRs and things of that nature. 01:01:50.640 --> 01:01:55.460 But, you know, for me, like I'm just going in really quickly to see, hey, how can I start the thing? 01:01:55.460 --> 01:02:00.360 How could I run it, install it, execute it, Docker compose it, whatever. 01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:01.700 And then kind of just get going. 01:02:01.700 --> 01:02:03.160 All right, Lukas, you got the final word here. 01:02:03.160 --> 01:02:03.460 Sure. 01:02:03.460 --> 01:02:09.180 Well, I don't think you can really go wrong with an ugly website for a project that is open source. 01:02:09.180 --> 01:02:11.820 Like it's very rarely hinders the project. 01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:13.360 Just look at Python.org. 01:02:13.360 --> 01:02:19.820 I'm being unfair, but you know, like in perfect fairness, like the last redesign was like some 10 years ago or something. 01:02:19.820 --> 01:02:26.220 So like, you know, kind of it doesn't look exactly like as flashy as like Tailwind or Viewer or whatever. 01:02:26.220 --> 01:02:30.420 And it doesn't really matter because it does kind of let us all PyPI is nice. 01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:31.440 Like Python.org. 01:02:31.440 --> 01:02:34.140 Yeah, and I was going to say PyPI actually did get that treatment though. 01:02:34.140 --> 01:02:35.080 Yeah, exactly. 01:02:35.080 --> 01:02:43.700 So yeah, like Python.org might get updated at some point as well, but it doesn't hinder us in one bit because, you know, it's a functional Django, in fact, website. 01:02:43.700 --> 01:02:45.000 And we use it every day. 01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:46.060 It's nice. 01:02:46.060 --> 01:02:54.800 I personally like if there was a designer that actually sat on the, you know, on the project and made the website work. 01:02:54.800 --> 01:02:59.460 There's a bunch of things that, you know, like until recently nobody thought about. 01:02:59.720 --> 01:03:02.160 So all those outdated websites don't have this. 01:03:02.160 --> 01:03:07.260 We're like dark mode, white mode, looking good on a phone screen or whatever. 01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:11.580 Like those things end up being quite useful to me now. 01:03:11.580 --> 01:03:15.700 Like the job I do, like I work with people in different time zones. 01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:19.440 So every now and again, they would catch me when I'm like, you know, away from a keyboard. 01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:23.620 And if I can actually go and check something, you know, on the phone, it's very helpful. 01:03:23.620 --> 01:03:30.320 It's not always possible or it's at least like, you know, complicated sometimes when, you know, like scroll. 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:30.860 A white background. 01:03:30.860 --> 01:03:31.020 A white background. 01:03:31.020 --> 01:03:31.740 A white background. 01:03:31.740 --> 01:03:32.340 Yes. 01:03:32.340 --> 01:03:36.020 Or like a white background is going to glare at you like at like 3 a.m. or whatever. 01:03:36.020 --> 01:03:38.900 You know, so like I appreciate good design. 01:03:38.900 --> 01:03:42.400 It's obviously not something I do personally as well. 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:45.160 Just like everybody else I think here. 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:52.040 However, there are people that are great at it and I appreciate it when, you know, kind of people like this get contacted. 01:03:52.040 --> 01:03:57.560 And, you know, those sorts of websites look good and are functionally better that way. 01:03:57.560 --> 01:03:58.560 Thank you all for being here. 01:03:58.560 --> 01:03:59.600 It's been a great conversation. 01:03:59.600 --> 01:04:02.100 Thanks for taking the time and being part of the group. 01:04:02.100 --> 01:04:02.440 Thanks. 01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:03.140 Thanks, everyone. 01:04:03.140 --> 01:04:03.960 Thanks. 01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:07.860 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 01:04:07.860 --> 01:04:09.680 Thank you to our sponsors. 01:04:09.680 --> 01:04:11.280 Be sure to check out what they're offering. 01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:12.700 It really helps support the show. 01:04:13.260 --> 01:04:20.160 Join Cox Automotive and use your technical skills to transform the way the world buys, sells, and owns cars. 01:04:20.160 --> 01:04:25.260 Find an exciting position that's right for you at talkpython.fm/cox. 01:04:25.260 --> 01:04:27.400 Take some stress out of your life. 01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:33.200 Get notified immediately about errors and performance issues in your web or mobile applications with Sentry. 01:04:33.200 --> 01:04:38.180 Just visit talkpython.fm/sentry and get started for free. 01:04:38.180 --> 01:04:41.780 And be sure to use the promo code TALKPYTHON, all one word. 01:04:42.400 --> 01:04:43.640 Want to level up your Python? 01:04:43.640 --> 01:04:47.700 We have one of the largest catalogs of Python video courses over at Talk Python. 01:04:47.700 --> 01:04:52.880 Our content ranges from true beginners to deeply advanced topics like memory and async. 01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:55.540 And best of all, there's not a subscription in sight. 01:04:55.540 --> 01:04:58.460 Check it out for yourself at training.talkpython.fm. 01:04:58.460 --> 01:05:00.360 Be sure to subscribe to the show. 01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:03.140 Open your favorite podcast app and search for Python. 01:05:03.140 --> 01:05:04.440 We should be right at the top. 01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:09.620 You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, the Google Play feed at /play, 01:05:09.620 --> 01:05:13.800 and the direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm. 01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:17.240 We're live streaming most of our recordings these days. 01:05:17.240 --> 01:05:20.640 If you want to be part of the show and have your comments featured on the air, 01:05:20.640 --> 01:05:25.020 be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at talkpython.fm/youtube. 01:05:25.580 --> 01:05:26.920 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 01:05:26.920 --> 01:05:28.220 Thanks so much for listening. 01:05:28.220 --> 01:05:29.380 I really appreciate it. 01:05:29.380 --> 01:05:31.280 Now get out there and write some Python code. 01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:32.080 Bye. 01:05:32.080 --> 01:05:33.080 Bye. 01:05:33.080 --> 01:05:34.080 Bye. 01:05:34.080 --> 01:05:35.080 Bye. 01:05:35.080 --> 01:05:36.080 Bye. 01:05:36.080 --> 01:05:37.080 Bye. 01:05:37.080 --> 01:05:38.080 Bye. 01:05:38.080 --> 01:05:39.080 Bye. 01:05:39.080 --> 01:05:40.080 Bye. 01:05:40.080 --> 01:05:41.080 Bye. 01:05:41.080 --> 01:05:42.080 Bye. 01:05:42.080 --> 01:05:43.080 Bye. 01:05:43.080 --> 01:05:44.080 Bye. 01:05:44.080 --> 01:05:45.080 Bye. 01:05:45.080 --> 01:05:46.080 Bye. 01:05:46.080 --> 01:05:47.080 Bye. 01:05:47.080 --> 01:05:48.080 Bye. 01:05:48.080 --> 01:05:48.580 you 01:05:48.580 --> 01:05:49.080 you 01:05:49.080 --> 01:05:49.580 you 01:05:49.580 --> 01:05:51.580 Thank you. 01:05:51.580 --> 01:06:21.560 Thank you.