WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:07.580 Docker is one of the core elements of developing Python applications in consistent ways, as well as running them across different hardware universally. 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:10.840 On this episode, you'll meet Peter McKee from Docker. 00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:15.100 He's here to catch us up on what's happening in the Docker universe for Python developers. 00:00:15.100 --> 00:00:20.520 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 308, recorded March 9th, 2021. 00:00:20.520 --> 00:00:40.300 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, and the personalities. 00:00:40.300 --> 00:00:42.100 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:00:42.100 --> 00:00:48.020 Follow me on Twitter, where I'm @mkennedy, and keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm, 00:00:48.020 --> 00:00:51.160 and follow the show on Twitter via at Talk Python. 00:00:51.160 --> 00:00:55.940 This episode is brought to you by Datadog and us over at Talk Python Training. 00:00:55.940 --> 00:00:58.180 Please check out what we're offering during our segments. 00:00:58.180 --> 00:00:59.580 It really helps support the show. 00:00:59.580 --> 00:01:01.300 A little bit of news. 00:01:01.300 --> 00:01:05.600 We just released not one, but two new courses, and more are just around the corner. 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:10.100 You might remember my interview with Sebastian Witowski over on episode 279, 00:01:10.100 --> 00:01:12.540 where we discussed the modern Python developers toolkit. 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:16.520 Since then, he and I have teamed up to bring you this whole idea of modern tools 00:01:16.520 --> 00:01:19.780 applied to well-structured Python projects as a course. 00:01:19.780 --> 00:01:20.880 And we just released it. 00:01:20.880 --> 00:01:22.820 It's called Modern Python Projects. 00:01:22.820 --> 00:01:26.360 You can find it over at talkpython.fm/modern dash python dash projects, 00:01:26.360 --> 00:01:28.140 or you'll find the link in the show notes. 00:01:28.140 --> 00:01:33.100 If you like the idea of a total tool chain makeover for how you're building your Python projects and applications, 00:01:33.100 --> 00:01:37.060 be sure to drop by the course page and watch the overview video to see if it's right for you. 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.060 I'm sure everyone will learn something interesting in this course. 00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:43.080 There's so many cool things in here, no matter your experience level. 00:01:43.080 --> 00:01:47.520 Another new course we just launched is full web apps with FastAPI. 00:01:47.520 --> 00:01:51.540 FastAPI is definitely the framework with the most energy lately. 00:01:51.540 --> 00:01:56.760 But if you build your APIs with FastAPI, well, you need another framework for your HTML user interaction side. 00:01:56.760 --> 00:02:00.400 In other words, could you replace Flask or Django with FastAPI? 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:01.740 The answer is yes. 00:02:01.740 --> 00:02:03.800 And this course is your guide to doing so. 00:02:03.800 --> 00:02:07.340 Check it out at talkpython.fm/fastapi dash web. 00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:08.400 Link in the show notes. 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:11.500 I'm really excited about these two courses, and I hope you all love them. 00:02:11.500 --> 00:02:16.080 We'll be giving away five tickets to attend PyCon US 2021. 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:20.080 This conference is one of the primary sources of funding for the PSF, 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:23.460 and it's going to be held May 14th to 15th online. 00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:27.180 And because it's online this year, it's open to anyone around the world. 00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:32.040 So we decided to run a contest to help people, especially those who have never been part of PyCon before, 00:02:32.040 --> 00:02:33.400 attend it this year. 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:38.740 Just visit talkpython.fm/PyCon 2021 and enter your email address, 00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:41.440 and you'll be in the running for an individual PyCon ticket. 00:02:41.440 --> 00:02:43.220 Compliments of Talk Python. 00:02:43.220 --> 00:02:46.080 These normally sell for about $100 each. 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.360 And if you're certain you want to go, I encourage you to visit the PyCon website, 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:53.600 get a ticket, and that money will go to support the PSF and the Python community. 00:02:53.600 --> 00:02:55.900 Congratulations to Tammy Doe. 00:02:56.020 --> 00:03:00.040 Tammy won the second of five tickets we're giving away, and there's still more chances to win. 00:03:00.040 --> 00:03:04.620 If you want to be in this drawing, just visit talkpython.fm/PyCon 2021. 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:06.480 Enter your email address. 00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:08.600 You'll be in the running to win a ticket. 00:03:08.600 --> 00:03:10.700 Now, let's get on to that interview. 00:03:10.700 --> 00:03:13.700 Peter, welcome to Talk Python To Me. 00:03:13.700 --> 00:03:14.980 Yeah, thanks for having me. 00:03:14.980 --> 00:03:15.700 Great to be here. 00:03:15.700 --> 00:03:17.660 Hey, it's really great to have you here as well. 00:03:17.660 --> 00:03:21.860 It's been far too long since we've talked containers and Docker and all the things. 00:03:21.860 --> 00:03:24.780 I was looking back at something like Show 9 or something like that. 00:03:24.780 --> 00:03:26.140 It was, I believe, 2015. 00:03:26.140 --> 00:03:28.360 Has anything changed with Docker since 2015? 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:30.000 I suspect something has. 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.300 Yeah, containers are interesting. 00:03:32.300 --> 00:03:34.420 They're moving very fast, right? 00:03:34.420 --> 00:03:35.120 Very fast. 00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:42.520 On just about all fronts, I think the whole developer, DevOps, DevSecOps, you know, just have embraced it the past five years. 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:45.780 Yeah, I was thinking what you might respond to from that question. 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:56.560 And to me, it seems like not so much how containers work and run, but just how people have embraced them and how many places they show up and how many people are saying, hey, hey, we have a cluster. 00:03:56.700 --> 00:03:58.040 You just run your thing over here. 00:03:58.040 --> 00:04:03.820 Just give us your container and we'll help you run it as part of our platform as a service or whatever it is they're cloud hosting. 00:04:03.820 --> 00:04:04.280 Yeah. 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:05.140 Yeah, it's very interesting. 00:04:05.140 --> 00:04:12.560 And then there's all these little micro, maybe micro is not the correct term, but all these, a lot of SaaS and startups and trying to help. 00:04:12.820 --> 00:04:15.180 And containers are at the core of a lot of that. 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:17.400 If you get in a container, we can run it. 00:04:17.400 --> 00:04:22.880 And yeah, some really interesting SaaS as they're starting up, little niche platforms as a service type things. 00:04:22.880 --> 00:04:23.960 Yeah, 100%. 00:04:23.960 --> 00:04:24.600 Yeah, absolutely. 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:25.660 It's super interesting. 00:04:25.660 --> 00:04:28.780 Before we dive too deep into that, though, let's get started with your story. 00:04:28.780 --> 00:04:30.000 How did you get into programming? 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:35.620 As a kid, my dad's an accountant, but a nerd at heart, you know, a techie, let's say. 00:04:35.620 --> 00:04:41.900 And he started out, this is interesting, at least to me, he started out with calculators before PCs were a big thing. 00:04:41.980 --> 00:04:44.520 He had calculators and he programmed these calculators and stuff. 00:04:44.520 --> 00:04:50.220 And anyways, long story short, he ended up getting, I think it was Apple II was the first kind of computer we had. 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:54.380 And I was fascinated about it, started programming on it, just learning, messing around. 00:04:54.380 --> 00:05:00.520 Fast forward after high school, I was in the Coast Guard and had gotten out and was going back to school. 00:05:00.520 --> 00:05:02.980 And, you know, I started back as an accountant. 00:05:02.980 --> 00:05:06.820 My dad said, hey, accounting is a good foundation, like math and science and those type of things. 00:05:06.820 --> 00:05:09.720 And I hated it, hated it, debits and credits. 00:05:10.100 --> 00:05:13.540 And I was just like micro Mac record. 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:14.120 Yeah, exactly. 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.600 Now it's very, yeah, now it's a lot more interesting. 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:17.760 Back then I couldn't stand it. 00:05:17.760 --> 00:05:19.380 But then I lucked out. 00:05:19.380 --> 00:05:26.280 My father was running two steel companies and he had a consulting team that was writing software for him, you know, like very exciting stuff. 00:05:26.280 --> 00:05:29.600 Like inventory management, work in process tracking. 00:05:29.980 --> 00:05:35.000 It's not exciting, but it's the kind of stuff that if you looked at what people were doing before, it was dreadful, right? 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.880 It was like transformative, even though it seems so boring and basic. 00:05:37.880 --> 00:05:38.200 Yeah. 00:05:38.200 --> 00:05:38.620 Yeah. 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.680 And he said, why don't you come work for me? 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.940 And this consulting firm, the main, the owner had some life issues or whatever and had to move on. 00:05:46.940 --> 00:05:50.140 And I said, well, I don't, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. 00:05:50.140 --> 00:05:51.760 He said, oh, you'll figure it out. 00:05:51.760 --> 00:05:54.060 There's a big Barnes and Noble at the top of the hill there. 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:54.420 You can. 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:55.820 They got a whole section on it. 00:05:55.820 --> 00:05:56.260 Just go read it. 00:05:56.260 --> 00:05:56.420 Yeah. 00:05:56.420 --> 00:05:57.120 Literally. 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:57.460 Yeah. 00:05:57.460 --> 00:05:59.180 And, and I did, and I did. 00:05:59.180 --> 00:06:01.540 And, you know, it was, I had a passion. 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:02.920 I had a burning desire, right? 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:03.280 To learn. 00:06:03.280 --> 00:06:04.520 It was fascinating to me. 00:06:04.520 --> 00:06:05.240 Yeah. 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:07.580 And so I switched over a computer science degree, MIS. 00:06:07.580 --> 00:06:14.940 And, but by the time I got farther along than that, I was getting paid to program and I was learning a ton more on the job. 00:06:14.940 --> 00:06:16.280 So that kind of started my career. 00:06:16.280 --> 00:06:18.820 Do you remember your first experience of getting paid to write code? 00:06:18.820 --> 00:06:21.480 Was it just like, I can't believe they're actually paying me to do this? 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:22.020 Absolutely. 00:06:22.020 --> 00:06:22.800 Absolutely. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:23.280 It was. 00:06:23.280 --> 00:06:23.720 Yeah. 00:06:23.780 --> 00:06:28.600 I mean, it's literally how they say, you know, find something you love and are passionate in and the money will come. 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:29.620 And yeah, it did. 00:06:29.620 --> 00:06:30.500 It certainly did. 00:06:30.500 --> 00:06:31.920 I was, I really enjoyed it. 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.240 And yeah, I was getting paid to learn and write applications. 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.040 So yeah, it was, it was awesome. 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:37.760 It was awesome. 00:06:37.760 --> 00:06:37.960 Yeah. 00:06:37.960 --> 00:06:38.440 It's fantastic. 00:06:38.440 --> 00:06:40.420 I remember my first experience like that as well. 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:43.980 I'm like, I had better figure this out before they realized I can't actually do this stuff. 00:06:43.980 --> 00:06:44.620 Yeah. 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:49.400 I could do the things they want if I'm like, oh, any moment they're just going to say, no, if you actually don't get to do this anymore. 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:50.600 But it was, it was great. 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:50.920 Yeah. 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:51.720 Yeah, exactly. 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:54.520 By that time I said, you know, I have to get on a bigger team and learn. 00:06:54.520 --> 00:06:58.680 I know I got to the point where, okay, I can write programs, but I don't know how to be an engineer. 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.000 And I'm not sure I could put it in those type of words. 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:04.680 But, but luckily after that, I got on a team and had some great mentors. 00:07:04.680 --> 00:07:07.520 So yeah, that's, that's how I kind of got started. 00:07:07.520 --> 00:07:07.880 Yeah. 00:07:07.880 --> 00:07:08.340 Fantastic. 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:09.860 I think that's good advice. 00:07:09.860 --> 00:07:15.500 You know, it's, it's really cool to be on small teams because you really get to put your hand in so many areas. 00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:18.680 You're not pigeonholed into, well, I'm the one who optimizes a stored procedure. 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:19.500 So I do that. 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:19.880 Right. 00:07:19.880 --> 00:07:28.860 You know, you get like a really broad experience, but at some point when it's like, I'm, there's no one I can talk to or learn from to go farther in this. 00:07:28.860 --> 00:07:31.320 Then it gets to be a little bit limiting, I think. 00:07:31.320 --> 00:07:32.320 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:32.320 --> 00:07:33.640 Like, well, that's how it got for me. 00:07:33.640 --> 00:07:35.440 I was like, I don't know where to go next. 00:07:35.440 --> 00:07:37.940 And I don't know who, you know, I didn't have anybody there with me. 00:07:37.940 --> 00:07:38.300 Yeah. 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:46.640 I think having a mentor either, you know, well-structured or kind of loosely structured or whether you look back on it five years and go, oh, that person was kind of mentor for me. 00:07:46.640 --> 00:07:47.640 It's very powerful. 00:07:47.640 --> 00:07:47.940 Right. 00:07:47.940 --> 00:07:48.540 It's very powerful. 00:07:48.540 --> 00:07:48.900 Yeah. 00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:49.860 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:49.860 --> 00:07:50.760 It totally is. 00:07:50.760 --> 00:07:56.380 I remember making that transition to a really great group of people who were, every one of them I felt like was way smarter than me. 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.460 It was intimidating, but absolutely was a good outcome. 00:08:00.460 --> 00:08:00.700 Yeah. 00:08:00.700 --> 00:08:01.500 That's the place to be. 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:01.740 Right. 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:06.540 Unless, you know, of course, I think a lot of us too in tech deal with the ego issue sometimes. 00:08:06.540 --> 00:08:07.280 I know I did. 00:08:07.280 --> 00:08:07.500 Right. 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:08.700 Like, hey, I'm pretty smart. 00:08:08.700 --> 00:08:09.340 I know what I'm doing. 00:08:09.340 --> 00:08:11.580 Then you, when you're young and ambitious, right. 00:08:11.580 --> 00:08:17.860 And you run into other really smart people that like are smart and you go, okay, I'm not that smart. 00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:18.160 Yeah. 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.160 It's a little humbling, but it can be humbling. 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:20.420 Yeah. 00:08:20.420 --> 00:08:23.640 Those are probably good life lessons, but they're hard to take when you're young. 00:08:23.640 --> 00:08:24.000 I remember. 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:24.780 Yeah, absolutely. 00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:25.220 Yeah. 00:08:25.220 --> 00:08:25.740 Fantastic. 00:08:26.300 --> 00:08:27.420 So how about now? 00:08:27.420 --> 00:08:28.580 What are you doing day to day? 00:08:28.580 --> 00:08:28.940 Yeah. 00:08:28.940 --> 00:08:32.580 So I head up the developer relations team at Docker and I get to do what I love. 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:37.540 You know, I still get to play around with tech and learn new things and build stuff. 00:08:37.540 --> 00:08:40.640 But then I also get to transfer that knowledge to others or at least try. 00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:44.100 So teaching and mentoring is what I do mostly day to day, right? 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:46.260 Content and workshops and those types of things. 00:08:46.260 --> 00:08:50.860 I help folks learn to use containers and Docker to help build applications. 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.180 Right. 00:08:51.180 --> 00:08:53.040 So, yeah, it's fantastic. 00:08:53.040 --> 00:08:54.320 I love my job. 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:54.980 Truly do. 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:56.280 I can imagine. 00:08:56.280 --> 00:09:01.420 You know, I really have thought for a long time that this developer evangelist sort of 00:09:01.420 --> 00:09:05.380 role just seems so neat because you get to work with a bunch of people. 00:09:05.380 --> 00:09:09.140 You're not really there just closing boring JIRA tickets every day, right? 00:09:09.140 --> 00:09:13.580 You get to just work at like the fun level of software and really interact with a lot of 00:09:13.580 --> 00:09:14.100 different people. 00:09:14.100 --> 00:09:17.440 You get to go to conferences, maybe be on a podcast, all those kinds of things. 00:09:17.540 --> 00:09:22.780 I just, it's a really cool space to be after you've learned enough in the industry to play 00:09:22.780 --> 00:09:23.120 that role. 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:23.380 Yeah. 00:09:23.380 --> 00:09:23.980 A hundred percent. 00:09:23.980 --> 00:09:28.880 I remember seeing, I had thought about the role before, but I think I was at Google's, 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:29.500 what is it? 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:30.060 Google Next. 00:09:30.060 --> 00:09:31.260 I think it's their conference. 00:09:31.260 --> 00:09:35.840 And that was when I kind of, I had known about Dev Advocates and DevRel, but when I saw 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:37.660 a couple speak, I was like, oh wait, Dev Advocates. 00:09:37.660 --> 00:09:39.420 Oh, they get paid to do this. 00:09:39.420 --> 00:09:43.200 This isn't just, you know, Peter, who's a software engineer, then speaks, right? 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:44.060 This is their job. 00:09:44.060 --> 00:09:46.020 And I was like, oh, that's, that's pretty interesting. 00:09:46.020 --> 00:09:46.300 Yeah. 00:09:46.300 --> 00:09:46.780 Yeah. 00:09:46.780 --> 00:09:47.040 Yeah. 00:09:47.040 --> 00:09:50.660 It's, I think you got to have the right personality for it, but I think it's really fantastic. 00:09:50.660 --> 00:09:55.080 I did actually a whole episode, episode 189 on this role. 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:59.000 And I had four or five people who were at different companies doing this. 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:00.900 So yeah, I was, it's really, really neat. 00:10:00.900 --> 00:10:06.500 So, you know, I do want to catch up on what is new and Docker and containers in that whole space, 00:10:06.500 --> 00:10:09.080 but there are a lot of people with lots of different backgrounds. 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.140 Let's, you know, listen to the show who I'm sure everyone's heard of Docker and 00:10:13.140 --> 00:10:14.180 containers, right? 00:10:14.180 --> 00:10:17.460 It's like hearing of Linux or something, but that doesn't mean you're super familiar 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:19.980 with it or you really understand the advantages or maybe the history. 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:24.500 So let's actually maybe start with just like the history of containers a little bit. 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:31.140 I know when I first saw the talk by the original, I think it was the original CEO of Docker, 00:10:31.140 --> 00:10:35.520 he had a really interesting sort of tie back to shipping containers. 00:10:35.520 --> 00:10:36.000 Yeah. 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:37.420 So what's this whole idea of containers? 00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:38.320 Where's it come from? 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:39.220 What's the deal? 00:10:39.220 --> 00:10:39.480 Yeah. 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:40.120 Solomon Hykes. 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:41.100 Yeah, that was him. 00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:44.220 When I first saw his, I think it was at a Pi conference. 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:45.880 Now that I think about it, actually in Europe. 00:10:45.880 --> 00:10:46.900 Yeah. 00:10:46.900 --> 00:10:50.600 He gave a quick brief, kind of like what do you call lightning talk, right? 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.340 And it kind of went over at the end and people like went kind of crazy. 00:10:54.340 --> 00:10:58.140 And I remember kind of seeing it and I was like, and if you ever go watch it, I recommend people 00:10:58.140 --> 00:11:00.900 go watch it and kind of look for the aha moment. 00:11:00.900 --> 00:11:02.540 At least it took me a bit, right? 00:11:02.780 --> 00:11:04.760 And, you know, he did ran these commands and then, oh yeah. 00:11:04.760 --> 00:11:07.940 And then there's this process running inside of a container and super easy. 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:11.220 And I forget what he demoed, but it took me a while, right? 00:11:11.220 --> 00:11:11.880 To be honest, right? 00:11:11.880 --> 00:11:14.520 I stepped back and said, well, okay, we have VMs. 00:11:14.520 --> 00:11:15.440 What is this container thing? 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:18.840 And it took me a little bit to figure out like, oh wow, this is super powerful. 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:23.920 But, you know, containers that the constructs to build containers have been around for a while 00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:25.320 since the seventies, right? 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:29.960 And been in Unix, different Unix flavors with change root and those type of things. 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:38.980 And then I think around 2000, I believe was when vServe came out and then about eight years. 00:11:38.980 --> 00:11:44.800 So you had Linux vServe and FreeBSD had some, you know, container-like functionalities to isolate 00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:47.000 processes into those type of things. 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:51.340 So vServe was kind of like a virtual, you know, sitting on top of the core kernel and having 00:11:51.340 --> 00:11:52.420 some virtualization there. 00:11:52.420 --> 00:11:53.500 I'll put virtualization. 00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:57.460 Yeah, when I first heard about Docker, I thought, oh, this is this amazing new thing. 00:11:57.460 --> 00:12:02.220 And then as I researched it more, I'm like, actually this, the pieces had always, not always, 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:03.540 but they had been there for a while. 00:12:03.540 --> 00:12:07.360 Like these pieces you're talking about, they just hadn't really been put into a nice little 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.100 package the way Docker has, right? 00:12:09.100 --> 00:12:09.460 Yeah. 00:12:09.460 --> 00:12:09.860 Yeah. 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:13.480 And I think that's the beauty of what Docker did and Solomon and his team, right? 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.160 There was, I think there was three founders, but yeah, two is, was it 2013? 00:12:18.160 --> 00:12:19.040 There it is on the screen. 00:12:19.040 --> 00:12:19.260 Yeah. 00:12:19.260 --> 00:12:22.160 So 2013 Docker kind of took off, right? 00:12:22.160 --> 00:12:23.980 It kind of exploded and it was just that. 00:12:23.980 --> 00:12:25.840 And I, you know, they simplified containers. 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:27.720 These constructs were all there, but they made it easy. 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:32.220 The ability to deep, you know, drop back down in, into the details or stay very high level 00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:37.540 and use, you know, Docker run, Docker push, you know, those Docker build, right? 00:12:37.540 --> 00:12:40.080 Those three main commands were super powerful. 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:41.660 And I think that was the beauty of Docker. 00:12:41.660 --> 00:12:47.700 They just made it easier for the average developer or, you know, for, if you had to be a Linux kernel 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:50.880 developer to kind of really understand containers before that. 00:12:50.880 --> 00:12:51.520 Yeah. 00:12:51.520 --> 00:12:52.420 And they simplified it. 00:12:52.420 --> 00:12:52.580 Yeah. 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:54.940 Linux admin or something like that, right? 00:12:55.020 --> 00:12:55.200 Yeah. 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:55.260 Yeah. 00:12:55.260 --> 00:12:55.940 A hundred percent. 00:12:55.940 --> 00:12:59.360 And it's kind of like, I think Microsoft did a great job at this. 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:03.960 I think Apple has done a great job at this, you know, Microsoft with, you know, VB, right? 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:08.520 And I'm going to get beat up on the internets for this visual, visual basic, but visual basic 00:13:08.520 --> 00:13:11.680 six, I mean, kind of weird, but it was a game changer, right? 00:13:11.680 --> 00:13:17.500 You had C++ MFC, you know, writing these C++ to write desktop apps and business apps. 00:13:17.500 --> 00:13:17.740 Right. 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:21.160 And VB6 came along and said, oh no, no, it's, you know, if you need a text box and 00:13:21.160 --> 00:13:22.880 some labels and a button, just drag it on there. 00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:23.140 Right. 00:13:23.140 --> 00:13:24.260 Look, I won't beat you up for that. 00:13:24.260 --> 00:13:25.540 VB was transformative. 00:13:25.540 --> 00:13:27.320 It was magical. 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:27.780 Yeah. 00:13:27.780 --> 00:13:32.200 The problem with VB was you could go so far and then you're like, well, VB doesn't do that. 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:34.520 So now you, now you get a grownup. 00:13:34.520 --> 00:13:38.260 Now it's time to put your big boy pants on and get a grownup language and suffer the, 00:13:38.260 --> 00:13:40.800 you know, C++ huge gap. 00:13:40.800 --> 00:13:44.620 But for what you, a lot of people built with that, it was incredibly easy. 00:13:44.620 --> 00:13:47.800 To be honest, there's nothing like that today that I can think of. 00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:52.480 That is so powerful for building a little distributable application I can give to you. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:52.660 Yeah. 00:13:52.660 --> 00:13:55.700 Electron feels super complicated and hard. 00:13:55.700 --> 00:13:59.940 Python, you can build stuff, but it's always kind of like, but this is a challenge or that, 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:06.060 you know, even though the windows stuff with WPF is, it's way more complicated than like, 00:14:06.060 --> 00:14:07.500 it was magic, right? 00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:12.160 It's just, it's too bad that there's not sort of a semi-modern version of something that 00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:13.220 simple for people. 00:14:13.220 --> 00:14:13.520 Yeah. 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:18.860 And if, who knows if, if Visual Basic had curly braces, we might have a different story. 00:14:18.860 --> 00:14:21.640 I mean, like, like truly, right? 00:14:21.640 --> 00:14:24.500 I mean, I remember having debates with, yeah, what's not a real language? 00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:26.040 It's, you know, it's basic. 00:14:26.040 --> 00:14:27.840 It's the basic programming language, right? 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.340 But yeah. 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:28.680 Yeah. 00:14:28.680 --> 00:14:28.980 Yeah. 00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:29.320 Yeah. 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:33.340 And John Sheen out there in the live stream says, rad concepts seem to be coming back as 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:34.920 these low code, no code platforms. 00:14:34.920 --> 00:14:36.780 That's a really interesting tie in there. 00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:38.020 I do agree with that. 00:14:38.020 --> 00:14:42.560 I think that they've gone even lower than, or simpler than what Visual Basic was to like 00:14:42.560 --> 00:14:43.660 really, really simple. 00:14:43.660 --> 00:14:47.160 So yeah, I'm not sure it's exactly equivalent, but it's definitely, you're right. 00:14:47.160 --> 00:14:48.520 Those things are definitely coming back. 00:14:48.520 --> 00:14:48.780 Yeah. 00:14:48.780 --> 00:14:50.120 I think we were real complicated. 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.420 Now we're going real too simplifying, right? 00:14:52.420 --> 00:14:54.000 The pendulum swings hard. 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:54.420 Yeah. 00:14:54.420 --> 00:14:55.560 I think we'll find it. 00:14:55.560 --> 00:14:58.040 I do believe though, with technology, right? 00:14:58.040 --> 00:14:59.500 Abstractions get higher and higher. 00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:03.980 And well, this will kind of roll in a little bit into where the container history went 00:15:03.980 --> 00:15:04.500 next. 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:11.320 And, you know, 2017, 18-ish, Kubernetes kind of dominated the orchestration, right? 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:12.240 And still does. 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:15.960 But it is, I was going to say horribly complex. 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:17.900 And maybe it is, maybe I'll get beat up for that too. 00:15:17.900 --> 00:15:20.380 But it is extremely complex, right? 00:15:20.380 --> 00:15:21.200 Extremely complex. 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:26.100 And you're mostly talking about like running a Kubernetes cluster is complex. 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:29.460 Not necessarily like somebody's already set up for you and you give them a- 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:31.260 of a definition and say, run that. 00:15:31.260 --> 00:15:34.340 Like that part might not be so hard, but like if you're going to do the whole stack, right? 00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:34.620 Yeah. 00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:36.220 The whole stack from the ground up, right? 00:15:36.220 --> 00:15:36.500 Yeah. 00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:39.800 So it's a bunch of moving parts, getting installed, getting everything working together. 00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:41.280 Security, networking. 00:15:41.280 --> 00:15:41.740 Yeah. 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:44.180 It's not simple, right? 00:15:44.180 --> 00:15:45.240 It's not simple at all. 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:49.820 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by Datadog. 00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:54.460 Are you having trouble visualizing latency and CPU or memory bottlenecks in your app? 00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:57.340 Not sure where the issue is coming from or how to solve it? 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:02.740 Datadog seamlessly correlates logs and traces at the level of individual requests, allowing 00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:05.120 you to quickly troubleshoot your Python application. 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:09.760 Plus, their continuous profiler allows you to find the most resource-consuming parts of 00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:13.480 your production code all the time at any scale with minimal overhead. 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:16.500 Be the hero that got that app back on track at your company. 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:22.660 Get started today with a free trial at talkpython.fm/Datadog, or just click the link in your 00:16:22.660 --> 00:16:23.900 podcast player's show notes. 00:16:23.900 --> 00:16:26.460 Get the insight you've been missing with Datadog. 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:31.860 I think it'll get easier and easier and easier and orchestrated run times. 00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:36.380 You know, I see a lot in tech, like the app engine from Google with Python, right? 00:16:36.380 --> 00:16:37.900 Well, basically serverless now. 00:16:37.900 --> 00:16:41.100 But when it first came out, you're like, what, you're going to run my whole app? 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:41.760 No, no, no, no, no. 00:16:41.760 --> 00:16:42.860 I need to control all that. 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:43.240 Yeah. 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:44.000 So we did away with it. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:44.900 But now we're coming back. 00:16:44.900 --> 00:16:46.520 You know, serverless, we're kind of coming back to it. 00:16:46.520 --> 00:16:47.640 Same with Kubernetes, right? 00:16:47.700 --> 00:16:52.020 Oh, you're ECS and ACI on, you know, hey, give me a container. 00:16:52.020 --> 00:16:53.180 I'll just run it and manage it. 00:16:53.180 --> 00:16:54.280 You know, we said, no, no, no, no. 00:16:54.280 --> 00:16:55.500 I need to control all that. 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:57.260 And then you get this massive Kubernetes. 00:16:57.260 --> 00:16:59.440 And now I think we're going back, right? 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:00.080 Yeah. 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:02.380 I just want to give you my containers and run them for me, right? 00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:04.300 I don't have time to deal with all this. 00:17:04.300 --> 00:17:08.360 And Google's and Google announced autopilot and those type of things, right? 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:09.960 So I think that's the way we're going to go. 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:14.460 And I think Docker as a company, about a year ago, when we sold off the enterprise, a little 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:18.940 over a year ago, sold the enterprise business off, got a kind of package software, enterprise 00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:21.620 software, moved more to SaaS, back to developers. 00:17:21.620 --> 00:17:22.020 Yeah. 00:17:22.020 --> 00:17:26.260 Well, let's dig into that for a minute, because I remember seeing Docker coming along and it 00:17:26.260 --> 00:17:28.840 was like, oh, this is a really cool, really cool dev tool. 00:17:28.840 --> 00:17:30.460 But how are they going to make any money out of this? 00:17:30.460 --> 00:17:34.160 And I feel like the first big step was, well, what we're going to do is we're going to have 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:40.000 special offerings for enterprises and help them tame their zillions of different types 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.180 of software they need to run. 00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:43.160 It sounds like that that's not the case anymore. 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:43.940 What's that transition? 00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:45.540 What's happened with Docker around that? 00:17:45.540 --> 00:17:49.060 I think first the business model was we shifted to an enterprise business model. 00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:51.440 Prior to that, Docker was just exploding, right? 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.360 And building tools and every Docker con, there was a new release and a new tool. 00:17:55.360 --> 00:17:58.000 And a lot of them would fizzle out and stuff like that. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:02.600 And the people with the purse strings, the money said, hey, hold on, this is great. 00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:03.620 You're doing some wonderful things. 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:05.240 But we want our money back eventually. 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:08.360 So can you go sell something? 00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:09.920 And they probably- 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:11.820 Open source and Cumbia, we all love it. 00:18:11.820 --> 00:18:13.100 But we're investors. 00:18:13.100 --> 00:18:14.280 Where's our 10X? 00:18:14.280 --> 00:18:14.540 Yeah. 00:18:14.540 --> 00:18:14.900 Yeah. 00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:16.580 So we shifted a little bit to enterprise. 00:18:16.580 --> 00:18:18.780 And it was just an old business model, I think. 00:18:18.780 --> 00:18:24.260 On-prem, long licenses, three-year licenses, at least a year, if not three years. 00:18:24.260 --> 00:18:26.020 And then consulting on top of that. 00:18:26.020 --> 00:18:31.400 So paying a couple of hundred thousand dollars for the software and then twice that for consulting 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:32.020 services. 00:18:32.360 --> 00:18:34.840 It was just a model that's a little bit outdated. 00:18:34.840 --> 00:18:36.640 And it's still there, of course. 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:41.640 But Salesforce was really the first that kind of was starting to drive the nail into the coffin, 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.360 so to speak, right? 00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:48.800 Well, it seems to me where a lot of those stories are moving are, are you moving to Azure? 00:18:48.800 --> 00:18:50.180 Are you moving to AWS? 00:18:50.180 --> 00:18:51.440 Are you moving to Linode? 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:57.240 Instead of trying to solidify and really modernize the data center inside companies, a lot of them 00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.520 are going, how can we just get out of the data center business? 00:18:59.520 --> 00:19:02.240 In which case, that's a totally different story, right? 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.000 In terms of how they work with you guys. 00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:08.380 We did have an advantage, you know, cross cloud, one single plane of glass for all your containers 00:19:08.380 --> 00:19:10.320 across clouds, internal, external. 00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:15.600 But it was just, it was a day late and a dollar short with funding when we kind of tried to 00:19:15.600 --> 00:19:15.940 do that. 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.980 And yeah, so they sold off the enterprise business and focused back on what Docker does 00:19:20.980 --> 00:19:26.680 really well is build development tools, development experiences, making container development first 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.080 really easy, right? 00:19:28.080 --> 00:19:29.580 And that's kind of what we're focused on. 00:19:29.580 --> 00:19:31.180 We call it shift left, right? 00:19:31.180 --> 00:19:32.340 Focusing back on the developer. 00:19:32.340 --> 00:19:38.100 We're still very interested in ops and DevOps and DevSec ops, but more from a developer's perspective 00:19:38.100 --> 00:19:42.420 and not that day two long-term running your production environments and stuff. 00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:43.000 Yeah. 00:19:43.000 --> 00:19:46.180 And so we got small again, got focused again. 00:19:46.180 --> 00:19:51.600 You know, we have something like 10 million developers or 10 minute desktop installs, you 00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:56.320 know, billions of images being pulled out of Hub and kind of looked at it and said, hey, there's 00:19:56.320 --> 00:19:57.480 a business here, right? 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.960 Just official images on Hub is a huge, huge asset for us, right? 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:06.240 You know, with Python and packages and all the languages and runtimes, right? 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:11.200 To get really good, high quality scanned packages is hard, right? 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:12.480 And Hub does that. 00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:16.000 So you know where you're getting your Mongo database from, who's produced it. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:17.540 Docker kind of puts their stamp on it. 00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:17.840 Okay. 00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:24.620 So you guys have like officially verified, certified, either direct images or Docker files that build 00:20:24.620 --> 00:20:25.360 the images out there? 00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:25.680 Yeah. 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:26.160 Yeah. 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.660 So we have official images, which we kind of say, hey, this is following best practices. 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:33.720 This is, you know, been scanned for security vulnerabilities. 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:35.940 That doesn't mean there's not security vulnerabilities in there. 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:38.260 If anybody works in the security space, right? 00:20:38.260 --> 00:20:39.520 That's like impossible. 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:40.900 Yeah. 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:42.260 Lowers your attack surface. 00:20:42.260 --> 00:20:46.540 This is the, we're recording this the week that we're basically hearing, you know, 60,000 00:20:46.540 --> 00:20:51.500 direct companies have been compromised by the Microsoft Exchange vulnerability. 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:53.840 And then they're probably providing products to others, right? 00:20:53.840 --> 00:20:54.960 Like it's, it's tough. 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:55.360 Yeah. 00:20:55.360 --> 00:20:56.040 Yeah, it is. 00:20:56.100 --> 00:21:00.360 But at the same time, there's also a lot of news around supply chain vulnerability. 00:21:00.360 --> 00:21:03.120 And the SolarWinds thing was a supply chain vulnerability. 00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:07.340 I don't believe the, you don't know, but I don't believe the exchange one was. 00:21:07.340 --> 00:21:12.440 But, you know, Docker is certainly part of that supply chain, either strengthening or weakness 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:13.080 there, right? 00:21:13.080 --> 00:21:18.900 Like we hear about how PyPI and npm and RubyGems and all of those have people have been, you know, 00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:21.560 putting renewed interest in trying to get bad things into there. 00:21:21.620 --> 00:21:27.320 I always have the same thought about Docker if I just grab an arbitrary Docker file off 00:21:27.320 --> 00:21:29.900 the internet because, oh, look, this configures the thing that I need. 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:31.440 And I Docker build Docker run. 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:35.260 Well, it might be configuring it with extra goodies for someone else right in there. 00:21:35.260 --> 00:21:35.480 Right. 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:40.380 And so that sounds like a really good thing to, you know, at least have verified to the degree 00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:41.000 that you guys can. 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:41.320 Yeah. 00:21:41.320 --> 00:21:41.780 Yeah. 00:21:41.780 --> 00:21:43.760 You used to be with security, right? 00:21:43.780 --> 00:21:48.640 It's, I remember sitting at a large computer manufacturing company here in central Austin, 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:49.380 central Texas. 00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:53.740 I won't mention their name, but, you know, we're getting, oh, nice. 00:21:53.740 --> 00:21:54.200 Thank you. 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:54.980 Yeah. 00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:59.760 So we're, you know, launching a big release and we're all sitting in the go, no go meeting 00:21:59.760 --> 00:22:01.680 and it's, you know, a couple of days before release. 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.680 And of course, then that's when the security team walks in. 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:04.920 Right. 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:08.480 And they're like, oh, you know, like literally like dropping down. 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:11.080 Hey, you didn't fill out your, your TPS reports. 00:22:11.080 --> 00:22:11.960 And exactly. 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:16.140 Well, that's such the wrong time to do it because, you know, a lot of those ideas have to be built 00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:20.620 in early and you've got to, yeah, it's really tricky to layer that on at the very, very end. 00:22:20.620 --> 00:22:21.220 A hundred percent. 00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:26.600 And now with containers, developers a lot more are closer to the operating system and worrying 00:22:26.600 --> 00:22:27.040 about it. 00:22:27.040 --> 00:22:32.120 You know, before you had your VM and you had, you know, you had ops folks taking care of that 00:22:32.120 --> 00:22:33.200 was patching them and keeping it. 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:34.000 Here's my code. 00:22:34.260 --> 00:22:35.960 It's going to need Nginx and uWSGI. 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:36.760 You figure that out. 00:22:36.760 --> 00:22:36.960 Go. 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:37.300 Right. 00:22:37.300 --> 00:22:37.800 Yeah. 00:22:37.800 --> 00:22:40.540 Now we're throwing it in containers and devs are doing a lot of that. 00:22:40.540 --> 00:22:45.240 So shifting that security even farther left to, Hey, scan your images, make, you should 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:46.520 know what's going in your images. 00:22:46.520 --> 00:22:49.900 You know, what base images you're using, those types of things are super important. 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:50.240 Yeah. 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:50.760 Okay. 00:22:50.760 --> 00:22:53.840 And controlling that whole light, like you said, that, that whole life cycle, right. 00:22:53.840 --> 00:22:57.300 Of, of when you're building your images and how through CI/CD, right. 00:22:57.300 --> 00:23:00.520 Doing the consistency consistently, making sure you're doing scans. 00:23:00.520 --> 00:23:00.780 Right. 00:23:00.780 --> 00:23:02.860 So you can protect that whole pipeline. 00:23:02.860 --> 00:23:03.560 A hundred percent. 00:23:03.560 --> 00:23:03.820 Yeah. 00:23:03.820 --> 00:23:06.060 We definitely need to be thinking about that as an industry. 00:23:06.060 --> 00:23:06.880 It's serious. 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:07.240 Yeah. 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.600 There's so many smart people out there and they move fast. 00:23:10.600 --> 00:23:13.400 They move really fast and keeping up with the hackers is hard. 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:15.580 That's for sure. 00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:16.220 That's for sure. 00:23:16.560 --> 00:23:20.640 So one of the things I thought it might be fun to touch on is just some of the areas 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:25.520 that containers are useful, maybe some of their, their benefits, things like that. 00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:25.820 Right. 00:23:25.820 --> 00:23:30.720 I think there's a lot of different use cases that are not, well, it makes DevOps more consistent 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.320 with development, even though that may be one of the benefits. 00:23:33.320 --> 00:23:33.620 Yeah. 00:23:33.980 --> 00:23:37.360 You know, the biggest problem that Docker solves is that packaging. 00:23:37.360 --> 00:23:38.400 It runs on my machine. 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:38.720 Right. 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.420 And that's been part of our marketing since the beginning. 00:23:40.420 --> 00:23:41.660 It works for me. 00:23:41.660 --> 00:23:42.140 Right. 00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:44.460 There's a fantastic thing that people should Google. 00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:48.660 Maybe if I can find it, I've put it on the show before, but there's a thing called, it 00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:49.120 works. 00:23:49.540 --> 00:23:51.760 It works on my machine certification. 00:23:51.760 --> 00:23:55.100 You can get the official certification. 00:23:55.100 --> 00:23:58.200 This is done by Jeff Atwood and some folks. 00:23:58.200 --> 00:23:58.760 Oh, that's fantastic. 00:23:58.760 --> 00:23:59.540 And another guy over there. 00:23:59.540 --> 00:24:00.680 And so you get this big banner. 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:01.700 It says, it works on my machine. 00:24:01.700 --> 00:24:06.020 And the way you get it is you compile your code and getting the latest from any version 00:24:06.020 --> 00:24:09.360 control, getting the recent from that is totally optional and up to you. 00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:11.540 You launch the application that has been compiled. 00:24:11.540 --> 00:24:16.500 You cause at least one code path to be the, to, that needs to be checked, to be executed. 00:24:16.700 --> 00:24:19.380 The preferred way to do this is ad hoc manual testing. 00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:21.780 You may omit this step. 00:24:21.780 --> 00:24:25.560 If the code change was less than five lines or in the developer's professional opinion, 00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:27.120 it couldn't possibly result there. 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:29.140 And then you check it into source control. 00:24:29.140 --> 00:24:29.420 Right. 00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:31.480 And so, yeah, I mean, that's, that's a joke. 00:24:31.480 --> 00:24:36.780 And the reason I bring it up is it's just, you know, so common in the industry that you 00:24:36.780 --> 00:24:39.020 run into this, this problem, right? 00:24:39.020 --> 00:24:43.020 That, well, we tested over here and under this environment, it works fine, but in a different 00:24:43.020 --> 00:24:44.280 environment, it doesn't. 00:24:44.420 --> 00:24:48.700 And, you know, we try to backfill that with things like CI/CD and whatnot, but it's, you 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:50.120 know, it's still, it's not a perfect fit. 00:24:50.120 --> 00:24:55.660 So with, with Docker, you can get much closer to running on exactly the same system. 00:24:55.660 --> 00:24:55.920 Yeah. 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.660 Yeah. 00:24:56.660 --> 00:25:00.920 The idea is not only package your app, but package the operating system, all of its 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:06.100 dependencies, your app, its configuration, all the application dependencies all in one package, 00:25:06.100 --> 00:25:06.320 right? 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:07.000 Into an image. 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.200 And then pass, share that around, right? 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:10.460 Makes it so much easier. 00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:10.740 Yeah. 00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:12.840 At that large computer manufacturer, right? 00:25:12.840 --> 00:25:14.160 We had two huge data centers. 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.120 And I talk about this in my getting started video, you know, 50 in each center just for 00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:19.800 the browse layer and dub, dub, dub. 00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:23.360 And if you go through and patching those machines, those 50, and you miss one. 00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:27.260 And of course we had scripts and all that, but you know, we still had them manually. 00:25:27.260 --> 00:25:31.180 You list of what servers are in and out of the, out of the data center, who's in DNS, 00:25:31.320 --> 00:25:32.100 who's not right. 00:25:32.100 --> 00:25:32.720 You miss one. 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.400 And then you get this, these, these random errors where I hit three good servers, the 00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:40.220 fourth one breaks, and then you hit F5 and you go back to server two and you're fine. 00:25:40.220 --> 00:25:40.660 Right. 00:25:40.660 --> 00:25:40.960 Yeah. 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:45.180 That's really tricky when it's, it's going, you know, could be round Robin type of 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:46.140 load balancing. 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:48.900 And you're like, well, sometimes it's wrong, but I don't know when. 00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:49.160 Right. 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:49.400 Yeah. 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:53.380 So we used to just go and, you know, restart all the servers one by one. 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:54.840 Some of the, some of the troubleshooting. 00:25:54.840 --> 00:25:55.060 Yeah. 00:25:55.060 --> 00:25:57.960 Some of the troubleshooting you get into is like, we have no idea. 00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:58.220 Yeah. 00:25:58.220 --> 00:26:00.900 So I think Docker really, really attacks that really well. 00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:04.720 But then when you looking at developers, what I'm really excited is, you know, moving into 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.680 microservices and kind of more modern cloud first kind of development. 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:09.160 Right. 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:14.600 Again, getting everything running on your machine, you know, 10, 15, a hundred microservices that 00:26:14.600 --> 00:26:15.520 you're not going to use. 00:26:15.520 --> 00:26:16.160 You're not going to touch. 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:17.740 You don't work on, but they need to be there. 00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:22.840 So, you know, you have this mesh of microservices or even just three or four of them, right. 00:26:22.840 --> 00:26:23.700 That work together. 00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:26.760 You have to have your sign on, you know, your single sign on, blah, blah, blah, all these 00:26:26.760 --> 00:26:31.000 things and getting databases and queuing and everything running locally is hard. 00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:31.460 Right. 00:26:31.460 --> 00:26:37.100 If I got to install Mongo and SQL server locally, and then maybe projects are using two different 00:26:37.100 --> 00:26:37.500 versions. 00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:37.940 Right. 00:26:37.940 --> 00:26:43.340 So now if everything's in containers and then if you're using compose, which I'll use orchestration 00:26:43.340 --> 00:26:46.340 loosely here, but it orchestrates your containers locally. 00:26:46.340 --> 00:26:46.640 Right. 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.140 Because Docker is all well and simple and easy. 00:26:49.620 --> 00:26:53.760 When the goal is I need to fire up this Docker container and I put the thing I want to run 00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:58.160 at the end, you know, I say Docker run, you know, container something. 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:03.220 But if I want to run multiple things and they've got to discover each other on the network, they've 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:04.520 got to have DNS names. 00:27:04.800 --> 00:27:06.740 And this one has to start before that one. 00:27:06.740 --> 00:27:07.020 Right. 00:27:07.020 --> 00:27:12.540 All of a sudden it's a whole, a whole nother level of like manual challenges to do that 00:27:12.540 --> 00:27:12.900 by hand. 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:17.940 So Docker compose is basically a way to write a file that takes a bunch of Docker containers 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:21.160 and starts them the right way with the right ports and everything. 00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:21.340 Yeah. 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:21.800 Exactly. 00:27:21.800 --> 00:27:22.440 Exactly. 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:25.680 Wire gives you kind of built in discoverability. 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:30.300 So DNS, you can easily plug in volumes and share volumes across your containers. 00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:31.120 Yeah. 00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:32.000 Super powerful. 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:36.220 And it's also a way to, like you said, writing out all these Docker run commands and then your, 00:27:36.220 --> 00:27:38.080 you know, your run command is huge. 00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:42.820 You can put that all into a compose file and then you use version control. 00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:43.480 Things like that. 00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:43.720 Yeah. 00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:44.020 Yeah. 00:27:44.020 --> 00:27:47.940 And then once I, yeah, exactly, Michael, I could set up and then, you know, setting up a 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:48.280 new dev. 00:27:48.280 --> 00:27:53.380 Hey, you know, pull latest from GitHub and Docker compose up and, you know, brings your 00:27:53.380 --> 00:27:54.000 application up. 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:57.000 I've got a couple of ideas here that I thought might be fun to bounce off you. 00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.920 And the very first one on the list is onboarding new developers. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:00.360 Yeah. 00:28:00.360 --> 00:28:02.300 I mean, it's one thing to say, well, we're going to create a new project. 00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:06.940 I want to work on it, but almost no one starts jobs with brand new projects. 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:09.900 They start jobs with, here's what we've been working on for four years. 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:11.820 It's kind of clunky, but it works. 00:28:11.820 --> 00:28:12.760 Go. 00:28:12.760 --> 00:28:13.280 Right. 00:28:13.280 --> 00:28:14.100 A hundred percent. 00:28:14.100 --> 00:28:14.660 A hundred percent. 00:28:14.660 --> 00:28:18.260 And I wrote, I wrote a blog post about this, but, and then my mentees, right. 00:28:18.260 --> 00:28:21.760 A lot of them come out of bootcamps and, you know, they're used to right click new 00:28:21.760 --> 00:28:22.220 project. 00:28:22.220 --> 00:28:22.520 Right. 00:28:22.520 --> 00:28:24.140 And I'm like, that's not where you're going to go. 00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:24.400 Right. 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:28.720 You're going to jump into a code base that is not the latest and greatest react, you know, 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:30.280 functional components, right. 00:28:30.280 --> 00:28:32.300 You're going to have old stuff and you got to be productive. 00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:34.920 It's a huge, I mean, I'm sure the audience will know. 00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:38.040 It'd be great to hear, you know, the last time you joined a dev team, how long it took 00:28:38.040 --> 00:28:41.800 you to just get your computer set up and get your environment set up and get familiar. 00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:42.080 Right. 00:28:42.080 --> 00:28:45.020 It's a week, at least a week, if not two weeks. 00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:49.080 Or, you know, your machine dies and you're like, well, now I got to get it all set up 00:28:49.080 --> 00:28:49.300 again. 00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:50.940 I haven't done that for a year and a half. 00:28:50.940 --> 00:28:52.020 So I forgot how to do that. 00:28:52.020 --> 00:28:52.260 Right. 00:28:52.260 --> 00:28:52.480 Yeah. 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.640 I'm trying to get everything into containers as much as possible, run everything in containers. 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:01.220 When you get into the GUI apps, it gets a little fun, but yeah, if you're running everything 00:29:01.220 --> 00:29:05.000 in containers, it makes it super simple to be able to move those onboard new devs. 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:05.400 Yeah. 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:06.180 A hundred percent. 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:06.700 A hundred percent. 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.580 So another one of those that I think we kind of already touched on more or less is reliable 00:29:10.580 --> 00:29:11.080 development. 00:29:11.080 --> 00:29:16.080 Like everybody's working literally on the same system and you don't have the, you know, works 00:29:16.080 --> 00:29:17.500 on my machine certification thing. 00:29:17.500 --> 00:29:17.700 Yeah. 00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:18.180 A hundred percent. 00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:23.360 Another one though is, you know, I'm here on my Mac, but maybe I want to do things that 00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:30.840 are as close as possible to where I deploy my various stuff things, which is Ubuntu, right? 00:29:31.100 --> 00:29:32.700 And Mac is kind of like Ubuntu. 00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:37.080 I mean, it's got sort of a Unix flavor to it, but it's not Ubuntu itself. 00:29:37.080 --> 00:29:38.620 It's not exactly that. 00:29:38.620 --> 00:29:38.900 Right. 00:29:38.900 --> 00:29:45.180 And so having this ability to be closer to the environment that you're going to run at, 00:29:45.180 --> 00:29:48.820 or you're going to deploy to, even though you happen to be developing in on something 00:29:48.820 --> 00:29:49.520 that's not that. 00:29:49.520 --> 00:29:49.820 Yeah. 00:29:49.820 --> 00:29:52.580 Being able to get correct versions, right? 00:29:52.580 --> 00:29:55.840 Of everything across your stack is, is very hard, right? 00:29:55.840 --> 00:29:57.840 It seems simple, but it's not. 00:29:57.840 --> 00:29:59.000 I mean, I could get Nginx. 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:03.460 I could brew install Nginx onto my machine, which I probably have done already, but maybe 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:08.580 I've got like the latest, greatest, whereas by default over on Ubuntu, if I just say, you 00:30:08.580 --> 00:30:12.460 know, app install Nginx, I think it's held back a little ways for some reason, unless you 00:30:12.460 --> 00:30:14.960 really like configure it for the latest sources. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.120 And so, you know, maybe the configuration file has something new that I could do on my machine 00:30:19.120 --> 00:30:19.620 that's supported. 00:30:19.620 --> 00:30:23.180 But if I try to put it out there, it's just going to, you know, service failed to start. 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:23.600 Yeah. 00:30:23.600 --> 00:30:25.440 Go find a log file somewhere and figure this out. 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:25.700 Right. 00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:28.840 And that's, especially when you're new, it's like, I don't even know where the log files are. 00:30:28.840 --> 00:30:30.080 Why is this happening to me? 00:30:30.080 --> 00:30:30.780 It's so frustrating. 00:30:30.780 --> 00:30:31.180 Right. 00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:31.460 Right. 00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:32.060 Yeah. 00:30:32.060 --> 00:30:36.100 You're pulling down a project and the remia getting started is compile, right? 00:30:36.100 --> 00:30:38.000 Make run, make, right? 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:38.860 Yeah. 00:30:38.860 --> 00:30:43.640 And if unless you're a C, a Linux C developer and you start getting errors, you know, off the 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:46.780 stack overflow, you go and start randomly trying things. 00:30:46.780 --> 00:30:47.000 Right. 00:30:47.020 --> 00:30:51.520 And that as a senior developer, you know, I'm like, I'm so scared. 00:30:51.520 --> 00:30:52.680 I'm a foobar my machine. 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:52.960 Right. 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.240 Cause I'm just changing settings and stuff. 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:55.700 And yeah. 00:30:55.700 --> 00:30:55.940 Yeah. 00:30:55.940 --> 00:31:00.020 But if you were doing that all inside of your container and really a Docker file is, is the 00:31:00.020 --> 00:31:02.700 steps you would do to install an application. 00:31:02.700 --> 00:31:03.040 Right. 00:31:03.260 --> 00:31:07.300 And so they're all there repeatable, have the correct versions of, you know, libraries 00:31:07.300 --> 00:31:08.400 all in the image. 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:08.620 Right. 00:31:08.620 --> 00:31:14.100 I think it's a simple preconception to have is like Docker saves me from knowing Linux in 00:31:14.100 --> 00:31:14.980 terms of the command. 00:31:14.980 --> 00:31:18.620 So I don't need to know Linux if I'm going to run on Docker and maybe off to Kubernetes or 00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:18.900 whatever. 00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:21.800 And so I can just do Docker and then everything will be fine. 00:31:21.800 --> 00:31:28.320 But in practice, like those steps you just described, those are apt install this, you know, 00:31:28.320 --> 00:31:31.900 and the various configuration commands of Linux itself. 00:31:31.900 --> 00:31:33.920 So there, you do need to know a little bit. 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.720 There's a very small subset that you need to do, but you know, you don't really have to be 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:38.600 an admin of Linux. 00:31:38.600 --> 00:31:42.420 So I do think it takes down the bar, but I still think it's interesting that it's, you still 00:31:42.420 --> 00:31:44.640 kind of have to know a little bit about how to set up the system. 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:44.920 Yeah. 00:31:44.920 --> 00:31:45.440 Yeah. 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.880 And it's nice because you can start high level, like, Hey, I just run my, my, my 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:51.340 Mongo image and it works and I'm not exactly sure. 00:31:51.340 --> 00:31:51.680 Right. 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:52.960 I just, here's the connection string. 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:53.320 We're good. 00:31:53.320 --> 00:31:53.600 Yeah. 00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:54.520 Here's the connection string. 00:31:54.520 --> 00:31:58.460 And then if you start, okay, I want to build my own and I want to get slimmest images as 00:31:58.460 --> 00:31:59.380 possible, right. 00:31:59.380 --> 00:32:01.580 You're going to, you're going to start diving more in it. 00:32:01.580 --> 00:32:05.400 And really the skillset to build your images is you have to understand Docker, but then 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.480 you also have to understand Linux commands, right? 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.060 How to install things on Linux, configure them for sure. 00:32:10.060 --> 00:32:11.760 But you don't, to your point, right. 00:32:11.760 --> 00:32:12.780 You don't have to start there. 00:32:12.780 --> 00:32:16.800 Like don't become a super, you know, admin, you know, 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:19.680 get the Linux command line Bible or whatever book it is. 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.300 Like start tearing through it. 00:32:21.300 --> 00:32:21.580 Right. 00:32:21.580 --> 00:32:22.020 I think that's a book. 00:32:22.020 --> 00:32:22.200 Yeah. 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:22.780 I think it is too. 00:32:22.780 --> 00:32:26.680 You can go very far with, without knowing that just basic Linux commands. 00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:26.880 Yeah. 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:27.000 Yeah. 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:29.960 I got a few examples of like, these are the three things you really got to do. 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:30.240 Yeah. 00:32:30.340 --> 00:32:35.540 And the nice thing too, about official images that you can, they're stored in GitHub too. 00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:39.900 So if you go in the hub and see it, you can jump into the GitHub repo and actually read 00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:40.540 the Docker file. 00:32:40.540 --> 00:32:42.740 So it's great way to kind of, kind of learn, right. 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:45.340 Of best practices and those types of things. 00:32:45.340 --> 00:32:45.520 Yeah. 00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:46.040 Yeah, absolutely. 00:32:46.040 --> 00:32:49.240 You talked about building like thin images and whatnot. 00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:54.060 One of the interesting things is taking these Docker files and layering them, right? 00:32:54.060 --> 00:32:57.620 Like instead of just saying, I'm going to, I'm going to need Nginx and I'm going to need 00:32:57.620 --> 00:32:58.880 Python and I'm going to need all this. 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:00.700 So let's just build one that has all that. 00:33:00.700 --> 00:33:06.220 And then any minor change you make to the Docker file means you completely rebuild all of that 00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:06.460 stuff. 00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:08.980 And maybe part of that's compiled from source that takes two minutes. 00:33:08.980 --> 00:33:10.240 And it's like, why is this so slow? 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:10.480 Right. 00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:10.880 Right. 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:14.960 You could make that four or five Docker files that one depends on the other that depends 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.360 on the other in very subtle, small ways. 00:33:17.360 --> 00:33:21.200 So like only the very last bit that changes maybe really requires much work. 00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:21.360 Right. 00:33:21.360 --> 00:33:22.180 You want to speak to that a little? 00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:22.420 Yeah. 00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:23.940 So you can do two things in there. 00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:27.600 I think you want to make sure one of the best practices you want to do is only one 00:33:27.600 --> 00:33:30.640 run one process inside of a container. 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:34.840 And I'm going to, I'm going to, I use container and image sometimes interchangeably. 00:33:34.840 --> 00:33:38.420 So, and then I get, I get yelled at for the people's on the internet. 00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:39.540 I'm probably making it wrong. 00:33:39.540 --> 00:33:41.140 So I'm an image, I believe. 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:41.360 Yeah. 00:33:41.360 --> 00:33:41.860 No. 00:33:41.860 --> 00:33:42.580 And you're totally fine. 00:33:42.580 --> 00:33:42.720 Right. 00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:46.480 Cause you can use them interchangeably, but so container is just a running image, right? 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:51.420 And if you're a computer scientist or object-oriented programmer, it's your class and your 00:33:51.420 --> 00:33:53.160 objects, your class is your image. 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:54.660 And then your object is your container. 00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:56.840 So containers are instance of running. 00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.560 And I use them interchangeably all the time. 00:33:59.560 --> 00:34:03.220 And I get yelled at in a lot of my talks, but, but generally speaking one process running 00:34:03.220 --> 00:34:07.200 inside of your container, you know, it's the, it's the old Linux idea, separation concerns, 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:10.220 do one thing, do really well, microservices, those types of things. 00:34:10.220 --> 00:34:13.540 But then to be able to create your images as small as possible, right? 00:34:13.540 --> 00:34:15.500 You can do multi-stage builds is what we call it. 00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:19.120 So you can have a stage in your Docker file. 00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:24.720 That has all your compilers, your libraries, everything you need to build your application. 00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:27.180 Make that one part of your Docker file. 00:34:27.600 --> 00:34:29.320 And then below that you can reference that. 00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:34.000 And so like a lot of Golang stuff, and we do this internally is we'll use Docker to build 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.580 all our apps, multi-architectural to architect. 00:34:36.580 --> 00:34:40.440 And then below that, just pull out the compiled binary and put that in my image. 00:34:40.820 --> 00:34:42.980 So now your image is extremely small. 00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:47.920 It only has your executable in it and everything else that you compiler tools, GCC, all that 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.300 type of stuff is left out. 00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:49.960 Oh, that's interesting. 00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:50.180 Yeah. 00:34:50.180 --> 00:34:52.260 So those are kind of like throwaway containers. 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:56.420 It'll do everything in container, get your nice dev build environment, build it, and then 00:34:56.420 --> 00:34:57.520 pull only what you need out. 00:34:57.520 --> 00:35:02.700 So even like in a node world where you're not, it's not a compiled, compiled language or Python's 00:35:02.700 --> 00:35:04.260 compiled, not a compiled language, right? 00:35:04.260 --> 00:35:07.580 You could do everything you need in an earlier stage and then pull that out. 00:35:07.820 --> 00:35:11.240 Just what you need into the final stage to be able to serve those up in your runtime. 00:35:11.240 --> 00:35:11.820 That's it. 00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:16.540 And that's the best way to kind of get the smallest, lightest images you want. 00:35:16.540 --> 00:35:21.340 And the smaller and lightest that you can get them, then they're easier to pass around. 00:35:21.340 --> 00:35:22.280 They're easier to start. 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:23.440 They're faster to start up. 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:27.880 And the attack surface from a security perspective is very small. 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:28.180 Yeah. 00:35:28.180 --> 00:35:29.160 Less is better there. 00:35:29.160 --> 00:35:29.760 Less is better. 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:29.940 Yeah. 00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:30.380 Absolutely. 00:35:30.380 --> 00:35:30.940 All right. 00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:36.180 Some other areas that I think two more that are certainly related, but not exactly the same. 00:35:36.180 --> 00:35:41.300 I feel like the data science side has a lot to gain from the whole container stuff because 00:35:41.300 --> 00:35:45.560 so often the environments are multi-technology. 00:35:45.560 --> 00:35:49.660 You know, you might have, oh, we're going to use this library and it depends on Fortran. 00:35:49.660 --> 00:35:51.520 We'll use this library and it depends on Rust. 00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:53.660 And then we're going to control that from a Jupyter notebook. 00:35:53.660 --> 00:35:57.880 And it's, you know, it's different environments make that harder, easier to set up. 00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:01.360 And so I feel like data science has a lot to benefit from here as well. 00:36:01.560 --> 00:36:02.120 I think so too. 00:36:02.120 --> 00:36:05.000 And that's not my world day to day for sure. 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.060 And so I gave a talk at the Toronto machine learning group a while back. 00:36:09.060 --> 00:36:10.320 The talk should be online. 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:11.760 So if you're interested, you'll be able to check that out. 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.520 And when I was step back and really thought about what I wanted to talk about and how is 00:36:15.520 --> 00:36:17.580 Docker really helpful in these scenarios. 00:36:17.580 --> 00:36:19.680 And it's kind of all the things we've been talking about. 00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:24.520 It's how do I share my data set with other data scientists, right? 00:36:24.520 --> 00:36:28.580 And you can put those in images and you can put those in volumes and share those, right? 00:36:28.580 --> 00:36:34.180 And then how do I get a consistent environment to, you know, reproducibility is the biggest 00:36:34.180 --> 00:36:35.060 thing in science, right? 00:36:35.060 --> 00:36:35.280 Right. 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.280 That's the other half of that that I was hinting at. 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:37.620 That's right. 00:36:37.620 --> 00:36:37.960 Yeah. 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:38.440 Yeah. 00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:43.080 And so having that reproducibility that I can share with other scientists and you have everything 00:36:43.080 --> 00:36:44.960 packaged together that I was running, right? 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:48.960 And you might swap out the data with your own data, but the processes is all the same. 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:53.500 So I think reproducibility is huge and talking with those folks, the machine learning folks, 00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:55.060 that's what they were looking for, right? 00:36:55.060 --> 00:36:56.240 Is how do I pass this around? 00:36:56.240 --> 00:36:57.180 How do I share this? 00:36:57.180 --> 00:37:02.000 How do I get my environment up quickly without having to become a full-blown computer scientist, 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:02.300 right? 00:37:02.300 --> 00:37:03.380 A software engineer. 00:37:03.380 --> 00:37:04.800 Or an admin or something. 00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:05.520 An admin, yeah. 00:37:05.520 --> 00:37:09.920 Well, one of the challenges in science in general, I believe lately is there's been, 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.440 what do you call it? 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.780 A crisis of reproducibility, but like a real focus on reproducibility. 00:37:14.780 --> 00:37:18.720 And because of that, I think some folks have realized certain studies are very hard to 00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:19.060 reproduce. 00:37:19.060 --> 00:37:23.480 And it used to be what they would publish is, here's a graph I generated with my software 00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:24.940 and here's the analysis of the graph. 00:37:24.940 --> 00:37:26.640 And you're like, well, that could mean anything. 00:37:26.640 --> 00:37:27.960 I can make a graph out of anything. 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:29.360 That doesn't mean very much, right? 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:33.620 And so then the move to like Jupyter Notebooks and IPython and so on to say, well, here's the 00:37:33.620 --> 00:37:35.940 code and here's the graph and here's the explanation. 00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:36.880 And that's a fantastic. 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:43.100 But what version of the library that maybe had a small interior change that no one sees 00:37:43.100 --> 00:37:46.080 that might propagate some change down there. 00:37:46.080 --> 00:37:52.820 And you can solidify all that stuff into a Docker container and then say, this is exactly 00:37:52.820 --> 00:37:53.460 what we ran. 00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:54.940 At least maybe it was wrong. 00:37:54.940 --> 00:37:55.400 Maybe it was right. 00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:56.320 But this is what we did. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:56.540 Yeah. 00:37:56.540 --> 00:37:57.040 Yeah. 00:37:57.040 --> 00:38:01.620 Just even a minor tick in a version of an algorithm that's processing the data, right? 00:38:01.620 --> 00:38:03.740 And I'm one tick behind you. 00:38:03.740 --> 00:38:05.500 And well, that's not the same, right? 00:38:05.500 --> 00:38:06.280 It's not the same. 00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:06.680 Yeah. 00:38:06.680 --> 00:38:07.380 It might be okay. 00:38:07.380 --> 00:38:09.580 But we need to know that that's how the difference is. 00:38:09.580 --> 00:38:09.740 Yeah. 00:38:09.740 --> 00:38:10.740 You know, one thing that's interesting. 00:38:10.740 --> 00:38:13.040 Have you seen this project Gigantum? 00:38:13.180 --> 00:38:13.820 No, I haven't. 00:38:13.820 --> 00:38:14.100 Okay. 00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:19.140 So this one, I had these guys on the show back on episode 238 and it's really all about 00:38:19.140 --> 00:38:19.460 Docker. 00:38:19.460 --> 00:38:20.380 It's super interesting. 00:38:20.380 --> 00:38:20.760 Oh, cool. 00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:26.000 So it's like a collaborative way for building like local environments in Docker, but then 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.640 sharing those and then people can work on them and then you can like publish them to the 00:38:29.640 --> 00:38:29.980 cloud. 00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:31.880 And there's like all these cool activity streams. 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:37.260 And it's just all about orchestrating data science with facilitating that by doing Docker. 00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:38.200 They have interesting things. 00:38:38.200 --> 00:38:42.260 Like if you go in and open up like a terminal and you type some commands, I believe they try to 00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:46.580 like capture those and make those part of what has to be done to the Docker container, even 00:38:46.580 --> 00:38:47.960 though you didn't change the files. 00:38:47.960 --> 00:38:50.780 They're trying to do a lot of stuff to make it like really the same. 00:38:50.780 --> 00:38:51.540 So I don't know. 00:38:51.540 --> 00:38:52.660 It's an interesting idea. 00:38:52.660 --> 00:38:53.440 Oh, that's interesting. 00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:54.300 I'm going to go check it out. 00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:54.820 Yeah. 00:38:54.820 --> 00:38:57.560 Jumping back to our earlier conversation, building that Docker file, right? 00:38:57.560 --> 00:39:00.520 Is, is, and you, especially when you're learning commands, right? 00:39:00.520 --> 00:39:04.320 That build debug cycle, test cycles can be painful a little bit. 00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:04.760 Yeah. 00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:06.560 So we're trying to think about that at Docker, right? 00:39:06.560 --> 00:39:09.480 Like it's one thing to have an image and just run it and use it. 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:11.920 And then it's another to build, build an image, right? 00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:15.620 A very complex image and kind of, so what you end up doing is kind of what you say. 00:39:15.620 --> 00:39:19.580 You create a base image and then you're inside of that running commands and then go, crap. 00:39:19.580 --> 00:39:19.820 Okay. 00:39:19.820 --> 00:39:20.700 What did I run there? 00:39:20.700 --> 00:39:21.180 Exactly. 00:39:21.180 --> 00:39:22.020 You go write that down. 00:39:22.020 --> 00:39:22.800 Yeah. 00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:24.460 We kind of love to reverse sometimes. 00:39:24.460 --> 00:39:28.700 That thing I just did to make this work, make that part of the Docker file, you know? 00:39:28.700 --> 00:39:29.100 Right. 00:39:29.100 --> 00:39:31.860 Extract what I did. 00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:35.500 Those five things I typed on the command, the terminal command prompt. 00:39:35.500 --> 00:39:39.360 When I logged in with Docker run, you know, Z shell or bash. 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:39.660 Yeah. 00:39:39.660 --> 00:39:40.360 I need that too. 00:39:40.500 --> 00:39:40.620 Yeah. 00:39:40.620 --> 00:39:41.220 A hundred percent. 00:39:41.220 --> 00:39:41.800 A hundred percent. 00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:42.200 Yeah. 00:39:42.200 --> 00:39:42.620 Advice. 00:39:42.620 --> 00:39:43.400 Do you got advice on that? 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:47.040 I mean, it's basically a saving at each point right now. 00:39:47.040 --> 00:39:48.620 It's very low fidelity, right? 00:39:48.620 --> 00:39:51.400 You're, you're running the command and then, and trying to remember. 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:51.720 Right. 00:39:51.720 --> 00:39:52.540 And it's painful. 00:39:52.540 --> 00:39:53.080 Yeah. 00:39:53.080 --> 00:39:53.600 Yeah. 00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:54.120 It's very painful. 00:39:54.120 --> 00:39:55.600 Some up arrow action. 00:39:55.600 --> 00:39:56.880 Like, okay, I did that. 00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:57.960 Then down arrow, down arrow. 00:39:57.960 --> 00:39:58.300 Okay. 00:39:58.300 --> 00:39:58.980 Those are the things. 00:39:58.980 --> 00:39:59.660 Something like that. 00:39:59.660 --> 00:39:59.920 Yeah. 00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:00.300 Yeah. 00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:00.580 Yeah. 00:40:00.580 --> 00:40:05.460 We've been playing around with some interactive, lightweight kind of, I say editors, but tools, 00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:05.760 right? 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.560 To, to build your images. 00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:15.860 So the concept of building an image from scratch, it's where you kind of, you can do a top or a Docker file, say from, you know, Ubuntu or from Alpine. 00:40:15.860 --> 00:40:18.460 Well, you can do from scratch and that's literally nothing. 00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:18.820 Right. 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:26.520 And you're moving everything in yourself and that's tough, but it's, if you, the most secure and leanest image, that's the way to do it. 00:40:26.520 --> 00:40:31.680 And yeah, so we've been thinking about tools around that and it's exactly that capturing what you're doing and what works. 00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:31.940 Right. 00:40:31.940 --> 00:40:35.300 So you can play a little bit and take, try and figure things out. 00:40:35.300 --> 00:40:39.120 And then once you figure it out, you're like, oh crap, what, what was that sequence that just worked? 00:40:39.120 --> 00:40:39.340 Right. 00:40:39.340 --> 00:40:44.660 Cause I did five things, but those three things were what actually worked and that could be tough for sure. 00:40:44.660 --> 00:40:46.820 I find that what I do is I'll fire. 00:40:47.020 --> 00:40:48.420 I'll try to create the Docker file. 00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:51.780 It'll invariably fail in some way that I didn't predict. 00:40:51.780 --> 00:41:00.400 So then I'll get it as far as I can run it in an interactive mode and try to, you know, get it to go to where I want it and then go, okay, well, these are the steps. 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:03.620 And maybe it errored out during the build, but you couldn't figure out why. 00:41:03.620 --> 00:41:07.420 So you want to go explore something to see what the log generated for that failure. 00:41:07.420 --> 00:41:07.780 Right. 00:41:07.780 --> 00:41:08.900 There's a little bit of back and forth. 00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:09.180 Yes. 00:41:09.180 --> 00:41:09.800 A hundred percent. 00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:10.440 A hundred percent. 00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:10.680 Yeah. 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:23.600 What do you think about things like attaching, basically using Docker within some of these tools like PyCharm and VS Code both have these ways to say, just run this, but in Docker when I pressed debug. 00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:23.960 Yeah. 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:29.400 My old school developer, you know, no fancy editors, right? 00:41:29.400 --> 00:41:33.300 Text editor, you know, it dies a little bit inside, but I've had to get over that. 00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:33.540 Right. 00:41:33.540 --> 00:41:35.340 I'm like, no, do these, right? 00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:37.520 Like I tell my mentees too. 00:41:37.520 --> 00:41:41.680 I'm like, okay, when we start, like you're in a text editor, remove all, remove all the tools. 00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:44.700 Cause you've got to feel the pain to understand what helps. 00:41:44.700 --> 00:41:44.940 Yeah. 00:41:44.940 --> 00:41:45.120 Yeah. 00:41:45.120 --> 00:41:45.280 Sure. 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:46.600 But with that said, right. 00:41:46.600 --> 00:41:47.100 Yeah. 00:41:47.100 --> 00:41:49.100 I mean, the tools are fantastic, right? 00:41:49.100 --> 00:41:50.600 The context switching, right? 00:41:50.600 --> 00:41:56.360 If you can stay right in your ID, your main tool and do everything within there and do it really well is super powerful. 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:59.380 The VS Code plugin is super powerful, right? 00:41:59.380 --> 00:42:06.600 Of managing your containers, running containers, dev containers, connecting into ACI and Azure and launching your containers right there. 00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:08.100 It's extremely powerful. 00:42:08.100 --> 00:42:08.380 Yeah. 00:42:08.380 --> 00:42:08.640 Yeah. 00:42:08.640 --> 00:42:12.700 I feel like it's going to get to the point where you might be running stuff in Docker, but you don't even know it. 00:42:12.700 --> 00:42:12.920 Yeah. 00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:18.200 You might conceptually know, but there's nothing about what you do or what you see that makes you feel like, oh, it's running in Docker. 00:42:18.200 --> 00:42:19.860 You just, I pressed run. 00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:21.040 It did these things. 00:42:21.040 --> 00:42:23.200 I saw it in my browser or I saw the output. 00:42:23.200 --> 00:42:23.500 Yeah. 00:42:23.500 --> 00:42:24.400 I don't know where that happened. 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:24.620 Right. 00:42:24.620 --> 00:42:25.540 But it happened in Docker. 00:42:25.540 --> 00:42:26.080 Exactly. 00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:26.520 Yeah. 00:42:26.520 --> 00:42:27.100 It just works. 00:42:27.100 --> 00:42:27.420 Right. 00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:27.660 Yeah. 00:42:27.660 --> 00:42:33.180 That's where we're trying to go is like with our tools is like you, the more, you know, you're, they get out of the way, right? 00:42:33.180 --> 00:42:35.380 They're not in your way is maybe the best way to say it. 00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:35.540 Yeah. 00:42:35.540 --> 00:42:36.800 Really good tools. 00:42:37.100 --> 00:42:40.280 You kind of, you kind of go, does that really doing a lot for me? 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.560 And then when you figure it, you're like, oh yeah, it's doing a ton. 00:42:42.560 --> 00:42:43.880 I just didn't, don't know it. 00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:45.040 It does it so well. 00:42:45.040 --> 00:42:45.320 Right. 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:45.760 Exactly. 00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.360 I think we have time for a few more topics that we can touch on. 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:54.640 So we talked about the multi-container stuff and we talked about, you know, run this on my cloud. 00:42:54.640 --> 00:42:58.540 And I feel like a lot of times what that means these days is Kubernetes, right? 00:42:58.540 --> 00:43:01.680 Everybody seems to have a hosted Kubernetes offering. 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:03.880 Sometimes that means just give us your container. 00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:10.340 Others that means, well, we'll really just run the cluster sort of configure it for you, but you kind of got to still own those VMs that run it. 00:43:10.340 --> 00:43:11.920 There's some sort of spectrum there. 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:20.320 What are your thoughts on people working with Kubernetes versus just directly with Docker itself or maybe even a pass, like almost a serverless type thing? 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:22.340 If you spend a lot of time on the internet, right? 00:43:22.340 --> 00:43:24.720 We're all on the bleeding edge, right? 00:43:24.720 --> 00:43:25.840 Yeah, we absolutely are. 00:43:25.980 --> 00:43:26.300 Yeah. 00:43:26.300 --> 00:43:31.140 You read a lot of blog posts about Kubernetes and service meshes and serverless. 00:43:31.140 --> 00:43:33.700 And those are all fantastic and wonderful, right? 00:43:33.700 --> 00:43:39.060 But a lot of us out there are not, we're not the Googles or the Netflix or, you know, Disney Plus, right? 00:43:39.060 --> 00:43:40.440 You can see I watch a lot of movies. 00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:49.160 But anyways, you know, so you have small teams, small three, five person teams that really are writing the majority of the software out there, right? 00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:55.200 And there's nothing wrong with standing a VM up, putting a Docker engine in it and running your containers like that, right? 00:43:55.200 --> 00:43:56.260 That's the way we started. 00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:58.280 It's extremely powerful. 00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:02.520 You know, before I came to Docker, I had a consulting business, a custom dev. 00:44:02.520 --> 00:44:05.060 And that's how we ran all of our containers, right? 00:44:05.060 --> 00:44:08.420 We had a Docker engine installed on a VM, sometimes two VMs, right? 00:44:08.420 --> 00:44:10.420 That we managed as the orchestrator. 00:44:10.420 --> 00:44:12.580 And it ran fantastic. 00:44:12.580 --> 00:44:14.720 And we could scale, we had load, right? 00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:24.080 And to update it and to maintain it, all the things we've kind of been talking about today were super simple because the only prerequisite for the VM was to have the engine installed. 00:44:24.080 --> 00:44:24.340 Yeah. 00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:26.340 And to be honest, that's how my stuff is running now. 00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:28.780 I have a CI, CD stuff set up. 00:44:28.780 --> 00:44:30.480 So I do git pushed to a certain branch. 00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.200 My VMs automatically work with the load balancer. 00:44:33.200 --> 00:44:35.120 They automatically update themselves. 00:44:35.120 --> 00:44:38.200 They restart and like it's hands off, right? 00:44:38.200 --> 00:44:41.960 And, you know, the small, small set of us, like it works. 00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:42.280 Yeah. 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:43.200 A hundred percent. 00:44:43.200 --> 00:44:43.720 A hundred percent. 00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:45.040 And serverless. 00:44:45.040 --> 00:44:48.360 And then also kind of the container passes that are out there. 00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:50.360 So ECS, ACI. 00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:54.080 So ECS is Elastic Container Service from Amazon. 00:44:54.080 --> 00:44:56.800 ACI is Azure Container Instances. 00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:58.700 And I don't know if Google has one. 00:44:58.700 --> 00:44:59.360 They probably do too. 00:44:59.360 --> 00:44:59.600 Yeah. 00:44:59.600 --> 00:45:00.140 Love you, Google. 00:45:00.140 --> 00:45:02.160 But yeah. 00:45:02.160 --> 00:45:09.420 Anyways, you know, it's being able to take your container and just run it in the cloud and worry about the container running and what it needs to do and how it needs to run, right? 00:45:09.420 --> 00:45:13.120 And ECS will take care of the rest underneath the covers. 00:45:13.160 --> 00:45:15.180 That's a fantastic option. 00:45:15.180 --> 00:45:18.340 I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's like those progressions, right? 00:45:18.340 --> 00:45:26.660 If you're doing a single VM with the Docker engine or two of them, a couple of them, and that becomes painful when you need to scale, really look at ECS or ACI, right? 00:45:26.720 --> 00:45:28.840 Because that will help you scale a lot easier. 00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:30.660 And you don't need to be a Kubernetes expert. 00:45:30.660 --> 00:45:32.780 And then if you do, then go to Kubernetes. 00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:35.680 But I always tell people, and Swarm is a great option too. 00:45:35.680 --> 00:45:37.520 Swarm is an incredible orchestrator. 00:45:37.520 --> 00:45:38.480 It works. 00:45:38.740 --> 00:45:40.760 How does that compare to Kubernetes? 00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:42.260 You know, I hear Docker Compose. 00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:42.960 I hear Swarm. 00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:43.680 I hear Kubernetes. 00:45:43.680 --> 00:45:46.220 I'm not sure when I should be thinking about which. 00:45:46.220 --> 00:45:48.460 So Compose is fantastic for local development. 00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:50.360 I would use it primarily there. 00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:52.660 You can use Compose to deploy and production. 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:57.140 Would I use Compose if I had only a single container I wanted to run? 00:45:57.140 --> 00:46:00.360 But maybe it had a complicated layering, potentially? 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:00.740 Yeah. 00:46:00.740 --> 00:46:02.140 So Compose works great there too. 00:46:02.140 --> 00:46:11.740 Even if you're running one container and all the command line switches and flags and environment variables and secrets, all those type of things, like put them all in your Compose file. 00:46:11.740 --> 00:46:14.520 So one, you don't have to remember all of them. 00:46:14.520 --> 00:46:19.180 And two, you don't write bash scripts to just run the Docker command, right? 00:46:19.180 --> 00:46:21.840 Yeah, you plug them all in just like that. 00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:25.120 You can see you're passing ports, volumes, all those type of things, right? 00:46:25.120 --> 00:46:27.980 You know, and I tell people start, think about Swarm, right? 00:46:27.980 --> 00:46:32.680 If you're doing one instance, don't jump to, like have really good reasons to jump into Kubernetes. 00:46:32.680 --> 00:46:34.000 It's super powerful. 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:35.540 It's a great tool. 00:46:35.540 --> 00:46:38.400 It really is, but it comes with a ton of complexity, right? 00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:39.320 So if you don't need to go. 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:46.080 Well, there's, like I said before, there's a difference between I want to run this on Kubernetes and I want to have my own Kubernetes cluster for which I'm the admin. 00:46:46.080 --> 00:46:46.440 Right. 00:46:46.440 --> 00:46:46.920 Right. 00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:47.160 Yeah. 00:46:47.160 --> 00:46:48.540 And don't get stuck in. 00:46:48.540 --> 00:46:49.600 Also another advice. 00:46:49.600 --> 00:46:53.600 And some engineers, you're like, don't get focused on developing for your resume, right? 00:46:53.600 --> 00:46:55.280 A lot of times, oh, we got to get in Kubernetes. 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:55.860 I want to have Kubernetes. 00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.880 I've done all this, right? 00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.920 And yeah, you know, you want to learn new technology and stay cutting edge. 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:02.360 But that's a tough one. 00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:03.620 That's a tough one to go to. 00:47:03.620 --> 00:47:04.080 Yeah. 00:47:04.100 --> 00:47:09.000 You can get very far with single engines, with Compose, and then with Swarm. 00:47:09.000 --> 00:47:10.960 And Swarm is a great orchestrator. 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:12.300 It's built into the engine. 00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:17.200 It moved to the enterprise with Mirantis when they bought the Docker Enterprise business. 00:47:17.200 --> 00:47:18.420 So they maintain it. 00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:19.720 We got out of Docker proper. 00:47:19.720 --> 00:47:21.520 It's gotten out of the orchestration business. 00:47:21.520 --> 00:47:23.160 But it's a fantastic orchestrator. 00:47:23.160 --> 00:47:24.020 It just works. 00:47:24.020 --> 00:47:27.520 A prior life at Docker, I ran all the customer success technology. 00:47:27.520 --> 00:47:31.420 So our knowledge base, our search engine, our training tools and everything. 00:47:31.420 --> 00:47:32.740 And we ran on Compose. 00:47:32.740 --> 00:47:34.220 Compose and Swarm. 00:47:34.220 --> 00:47:35.060 All on Swarm. 00:47:35.060 --> 00:47:36.200 Five, nine uptime. 00:47:36.200 --> 00:47:37.000 Never touched it. 00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:38.620 Didn't have a DevOps team, right? 00:47:38.620 --> 00:47:39.720 It just, it really works. 00:47:39.720 --> 00:47:46.500 When you need things like sidecars and more complex networking and the more complex data storage, 00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:50.060 volumes, those type of things, that's where Kubernetes really shines. 00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:55.160 But other than that, Swarm is fantastic and single engines will get you very far. 00:47:55.160 --> 00:47:59.220 And then, like you said, I would go to EKS or something like that first, right? 00:47:59.220 --> 00:48:03.940 Have a Kubernetes cluster and manage at the level that you need to manage at and nothing lower, 00:48:03.940 --> 00:48:04.440 right? 00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:05.360 Until you have to. 00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:05.540 Makes sense. 00:48:05.540 --> 00:48:08.680 Chris McDonough, creator of the creators of Pyramid. 00:48:08.680 --> 00:48:10.260 Framework out there is in the live stream. 00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:14.440 It says, Compose kind of fills the same space as Buildout did in Python land for managing one 00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:15.680 or multiple containers locally. 00:48:15.680 --> 00:48:16.400 Yeah, awesome. 00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:17.120 Hello, Chris. 00:48:17.120 --> 00:48:17.640 Thanks for being here. 00:48:17.640 --> 00:48:18.060 Hey, Chris. 00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:18.600 Yeah, very cool. 00:48:18.600 --> 00:48:23.320 So the last thing that I want to touch on, the last topic I think we have time to talk 00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:24.680 about is the future. 00:48:24.680 --> 00:48:27.300 Where are things going with Docker, right? 00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:31.900 Like we've seen this move to focusing more on, you said, shift the left, more on the developer 00:48:31.900 --> 00:48:32.720 tools and whatnot. 00:48:32.720 --> 00:48:33.900 I'm glad you brought it to roadmap. 00:48:33.900 --> 00:48:34.460 Thank you. 00:48:34.460 --> 00:48:35.560 My bosses will be happy. 00:48:35.560 --> 00:48:38.660 My masters. 00:48:38.660 --> 00:48:40.180 Anyways, love you, Matt. 00:48:40.180 --> 00:48:45.340 So GitHub out there for forward slash Docker forward slash roadmap. 00:48:45.340 --> 00:48:47.060 That is our public roadmap. 00:48:47.060 --> 00:48:48.600 That is our roadmap, right? 00:48:48.600 --> 00:48:49.580 We work on that roadmap. 00:48:49.580 --> 00:48:51.920 We're actually coming out with a blog post with a feature. 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:54.800 And that was spawned, came out of the roadmap, right? 00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:56.200 It was an idea from the community. 00:48:56.200 --> 00:48:59.780 It's integrating in with different terminals with Docker desktop. 00:48:59.780 --> 00:49:01.900 And that came out of the community. 00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:05.220 And people said, hey, I run iTerm on my Mac. 00:49:05.220 --> 00:49:08.540 And so does 99% of the other developers on Mac. 00:49:08.700 --> 00:49:11.060 We want that integrated, our integrated desktop. 00:49:11.060 --> 00:49:13.700 And so the upticks were really great. 00:49:13.700 --> 00:49:14.900 Anyways, we implemented it. 00:49:14.900 --> 00:49:20.540 So you'll see Ben, if you're looking at the screen on the right, Ben is the best PM I've 00:49:20.540 --> 00:49:21.240 ever worked with. 00:49:21.240 --> 00:49:22.560 Seriously, he's fantastic. 00:49:22.560 --> 00:49:23.880 But he is in there constantly. 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:24.880 Yeah. 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:25.740 So we look at this roadmap. 00:49:25.740 --> 00:49:26.660 We follow this roadmap. 00:49:26.660 --> 00:49:27.860 We build off of this roadmap. 00:49:28.040 --> 00:49:30.900 We don't have a secret shadow internal roadmap, right? 00:49:30.900 --> 00:49:32.460 And we say, hey, yeah. 00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:36.580 You've got different channels for like Windows and Microsoft and the engine and all that stuff, 00:49:36.580 --> 00:49:36.820 right? 00:49:36.820 --> 00:49:37.120 Yep. 00:49:37.120 --> 00:49:39.060 And so go read through there. 00:49:39.060 --> 00:49:41.520 Put in an issue if you have one. 00:49:41.520 --> 00:49:44.860 If you don't find it, it's where you can interact, add comments, those type of things. 00:49:44.860 --> 00:49:46.240 We do use that constantly. 00:49:46.240 --> 00:49:47.540 You know, I don't. 00:49:47.540 --> 00:49:49.140 So we have DockerCon coming up. 00:49:49.140 --> 00:49:50.760 So I don't want to give any secrets away. 00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:55.200 But yeah, we have, I would say, look for us in this year, the past year, we really kind 00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:56.900 of solidified the business, right? 00:49:56.900 --> 00:50:02.140 Really did a lot of things that Docker didn't do early in its early days, right? 00:50:02.140 --> 00:50:06.580 As a business wise, you know, we're shifting around a lot, but focus back on Hub and say, 00:50:06.580 --> 00:50:08.240 hey, you know, let's tighten up Hub. 00:50:08.240 --> 00:50:11.460 This is a place where a massive amount of developers come for value. 00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:16.720 So we tightened it up, put in good features like audit logging and more team features and 00:50:16.720 --> 00:50:20.240 fixed our plans and seats and how the pricing and how that works. 00:50:20.600 --> 00:50:22.780 And then started moving towards developer tools. 00:50:22.780 --> 00:50:26.600 So integrating it with ECS, ACI into the public clouds. 00:50:26.600 --> 00:50:28.320 You'll see a lot more of that coming. 00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:33.200 See a lot more tools around local development, container first development, a lot of sharing. 00:50:33.200 --> 00:50:36.220 So it'd be interesting to say, I'm working on a feature. 00:50:36.220 --> 00:50:39.240 I have a branch and I want to share that with you, Michael. 00:50:39.240 --> 00:50:40.800 Hey, you know, take a look at this real quick. 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:42.580 And now you're in that same scenario, right? 00:50:42.580 --> 00:50:43.740 I have to check out your branch. 00:50:43.740 --> 00:50:46.420 If I'm doing everything on my machine, do I have all the versions correct? 00:50:46.420 --> 00:50:47.380 Do I have everything right? 00:50:47.380 --> 00:50:50.440 Well, what if you could just wrap that all up a container and I just share it with you? 00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:54.460 And you fire that container up and you're in a dev environment and it not just running 00:50:54.460 --> 00:50:59.000 the container, but able to see my code and everything and the app running inside the container and 00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:00.040 interact with it, right? 00:51:00.040 --> 00:51:00.760 Yeah, that's cool. 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:01.520 That's powerful. 00:51:01.520 --> 00:51:06.000 That sounds a little bit like the VS Code feature where they have that's like launch this in 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:07.020 code off of GitHub. 00:51:07.020 --> 00:51:07.440 Yep. 00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:09.960 And it just like sets up that remote environment. 00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:10.460 Exactly. 00:51:10.460 --> 00:51:11.200 Exactly. 00:51:11.200 --> 00:51:11.800 Yep. 00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:13.340 Launch, launch this for me. 00:51:13.340 --> 00:51:15.180 And also too, I can notify you, right? 00:51:15.180 --> 00:51:17.220 So you get in a little desktop notify. 00:51:17.220 --> 00:51:21.540 Hey, you got something shared with you and you launch this in VS Code and it brings it all 00:51:21.540 --> 00:51:22.100 in for you. 00:51:22.100 --> 00:51:22.520 Yeah, cool. 00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:26.360 And to your earlier point, you go, oh, if you didn't know you're running containers, you 00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:27.020 might not know it. 00:51:27.020 --> 00:51:27.420 Right. 00:51:27.640 --> 00:51:31.160 It's like, oh, I just got this PR shared with me and I want to check it out. 00:51:31.160 --> 00:51:31.440 Right. 00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:33.500 And it's just the run button and it's good. 00:51:33.500 --> 00:51:34.500 I push the run button. 00:51:34.500 --> 00:51:34.680 Yeah. 00:51:34.680 --> 00:51:35.160 Yeah. 00:51:35.160 --> 00:51:35.520 Awesome. 00:51:35.520 --> 00:51:36.840 A lot of stuff coming around that. 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:40.280 A lot of more features in for teams and sharing features coming in Hub. 00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:42.740 We have scanning and the security scanning in there now. 00:51:42.740 --> 00:51:43.260 Yeah. 00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:43.960 A lot of interesting. 00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:50.260 One thing that GitHub added was notifications of security CVEs and whatnot. 00:51:50.260 --> 00:51:54.740 Like periodically I'll log in and I did this class that interacted in a very minor way 00:51:54.740 --> 00:51:56.200 with an Electron JS app. 00:51:56.460 --> 00:52:01.300 And it's always like your repository has this critical vulnerability because some random 00:52:01.300 --> 00:52:07.240 version in a package lock dot JSON is, you know, like, so for me, I'm like, I don't really 00:52:07.240 --> 00:52:11.460 need that, but I'll go ahead and just accept it because I just need it to be quiet to me. 00:52:11.460 --> 00:52:15.880 But in general, those features are super useful when those come up for your actual code. 00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:17.600 Anything like that you guys are thinking about? 00:52:17.600 --> 00:52:23.000 So we partnered with Snyk, which is a dev security scanning company, security company. 00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:24.880 I shouldn't say just scanning because they do a bunch of stuff. 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:26.880 But now you have Docker space scan. 00:52:27.060 --> 00:52:31.620 So you can scan your images locally, get reports, see high, low severity. 00:52:31.620 --> 00:52:31.920 Yeah. 00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.760 And then that'll run in Hub. 00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:37.620 So when you push into Hub, your images will be scanned if you have it turned on. 00:52:37.620 --> 00:52:39.600 And so you have a central place where you can see all those. 00:52:39.600 --> 00:52:43.640 And then you can use Snyk to remediate them and those types of stuff. 00:52:43.640 --> 00:52:44.940 And Snyk has really good tools. 00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:45.120 Right. 00:52:45.120 --> 00:52:49.260 Because maybe you could have scanned locally, push your stuff to production. 00:52:49.260 --> 00:52:49.700 Right. 00:52:49.700 --> 00:52:51.260 And then you haven't touched it for three weeks. 00:52:51.260 --> 00:52:51.500 Right. 00:52:51.500 --> 00:52:54.020 But in the meantime, something's come out you need to take action on. 00:52:54.020 --> 00:52:54.520 Right. 00:52:54.520 --> 00:52:58.760 And so having it on the Hub, giving you notifications is constantly running. 00:52:58.760 --> 00:52:58.980 Right. 00:52:59.100 --> 00:52:59.460 Exactly. 00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:00.140 Exactly. 00:53:00.140 --> 00:53:00.940 Yeah. 00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:02.940 Being able to get notified of your base images. 00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:03.280 Right. 00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:06.840 So if you run in the node or the Python base image. 00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:07.080 Right. 00:53:07.080 --> 00:53:09.100 When that changes underneath you. 00:53:09.100 --> 00:53:09.360 Right. 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:11.040 And there's security vulnerabilities introduced. 00:53:11.040 --> 00:53:11.620 Do you want to know? 00:53:11.620 --> 00:53:12.180 Right. 00:53:12.180 --> 00:53:14.220 Should I go to the next version or not? 00:53:14.380 --> 00:53:18.880 And then I think, too, to your earlier point of, you know, it's like I'm not a security professional. 00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:19.220 Right. 00:53:19.220 --> 00:53:24.180 So I see these reports and I do a scan and I go, oh, heck, you know, 300, you know, high 00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:25.000 severity vulnerabilities. 00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:25.340 Right. 00:53:25.340 --> 00:53:25.940 What do I do? 00:53:25.940 --> 00:53:29.640 And I think what we're trying to do is say, hey, here's how you remediate that. 00:53:29.640 --> 00:53:29.900 Right. 00:53:29.900 --> 00:53:31.640 You're on version 3.2. 00:53:31.640 --> 00:53:34.080 If you bump up to 3.3, it fixes these. 00:53:34.080 --> 00:53:35.240 So you should do that. 00:53:35.240 --> 00:53:35.540 Right. 00:53:35.540 --> 00:53:40.440 A little minor version upgrade or major upgrade takes you to instead of 300. 00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:41.780 Now you have 20 vulnerabilities. 00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:42.200 Right. 00:53:42.200 --> 00:53:43.280 And they're all medium. 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:43.700 So. 00:53:43.700 --> 00:53:44.040 Yeah. 00:53:44.140 --> 00:53:47.520 You know, I think we need that as engineers to be able to get our job done quicker writing 00:53:47.520 --> 00:53:47.940 code. 00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:49.160 You know, it's a primary function. 00:53:49.160 --> 00:53:49.460 Right. 00:53:49.460 --> 00:53:50.880 So I got a bunch of these vulnerabilities. 00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:54.840 And to your point, you kind of like just, yes, just clearly these red X is off of here. 00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:55.040 Right. 00:53:55.040 --> 00:53:56.800 We might not know exactly what's going on. 00:53:56.800 --> 00:54:00.940 So really trying to help you remediate those vulnerabilities, but also understand why and 00:54:00.940 --> 00:54:01.480 what you're doing. 00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:01.700 Right. 00:54:01.700 --> 00:54:01.960 Yeah. 00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:02.900 That sounds really valuable. 00:54:02.900 --> 00:54:04.060 We got it for our code. 00:54:04.060 --> 00:54:05.980 We should have it for basically our infrastructure. 00:54:05.980 --> 00:54:07.620 Comment from the live stream. 00:54:07.620 --> 00:54:12.960 Could Docker potentially be able to share really big files across the globe, allowing others to recode 00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.340 easily? 00:54:13.640 --> 00:54:14.320 How would this work? 00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:15.260 Honestly, I don't know. 00:54:15.260 --> 00:54:19.640 I mean, it certainly will allow you to share files as images and it will definitely allow 00:54:19.640 --> 00:54:23.800 you to have environments set up like data science environments that could analyze those. 00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:25.020 But what are your thoughts? 00:54:25.020 --> 00:54:26.500 I think we could do some of that now. 00:54:26.500 --> 00:54:30.560 So I'm through hub being able to just Docker push and Docker pull is very powerful. 00:54:30.560 --> 00:54:30.920 Right. 00:54:31.100 --> 00:54:33.100 You can get a whole disk image, let's say. 00:54:33.100 --> 00:54:33.300 Right. 00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:33.480 Right. 00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.840 Because instead of getting just the Docker file, you got to build, you get the result, which 00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:40.240 could have had files copied in locally and all set up in the file system internally. 00:54:40.240 --> 00:54:40.560 Right. 00:54:40.560 --> 00:54:40.820 Yeah. 00:54:40.820 --> 00:54:41.220 Yeah. 00:54:41.220 --> 00:54:41.540 Yeah. 00:54:41.540 --> 00:54:45.720 So two ways to share with just the Docker file and say, hey, build this yourself or I've 00:54:45.720 --> 00:54:46.180 built it. 00:54:46.180 --> 00:54:46.900 Here you go. 00:54:46.900 --> 00:54:47.180 Right. 00:54:47.180 --> 00:54:47.700 Yeah. 00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.020 I would love to hear, you know, reach out to me on Twitter or something. 00:54:51.020 --> 00:54:51.320 Right. 00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:52.080 And let me know. 00:54:52.080 --> 00:54:53.740 I'd love to hear more of what you're trying to do. 00:54:53.740 --> 00:54:54.960 And because that sounds interesting. 00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:55.240 Right. 00:54:55.240 --> 00:54:55.460 Yeah. 00:54:55.460 --> 00:54:57.740 Bandwidth is interesting too around the world. 00:54:57.740 --> 00:54:58.000 Right. 00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:01.180 So, you know, I sit here in Austin where, you know, high speed internet. 00:55:01.180 --> 00:55:03.740 Well, really the rest of the world doesn't have that. 00:55:03.740 --> 00:55:04.000 Right. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:05.100 So low bandwidth. 00:55:05.100 --> 00:55:08.520 And, you know, of course I got a screaming desktop laptop. 00:55:08.520 --> 00:55:08.960 Right. 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:13.120 That I use in fast and not, you know, the whole world doesn't have those advantages. 00:55:13.120 --> 00:55:16.480 So, you know, and if I'm pulling down a Mongo, some image, right. 00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:20.040 And I'm picking on Mongo all the time, but you know, if it's, if it's over a gig, that's, 00:55:20.040 --> 00:55:20.960 that's big, right. 00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:22.640 That it'll take a while on some network. 00:55:22.640 --> 00:55:23.260 So yeah. 00:55:23.260 --> 00:55:23.560 Yeah. 00:55:23.560 --> 00:55:28.500 All the video and video courses and audio processing and file exchange. 00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:34.720 I've had to buy unlimited data from Comcast because I was going over my 1.2 terabyte per 00:55:34.720 --> 00:55:36.320 month data caps every month. 00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:36.800 That was ridiculous. 00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:37.020 Yeah. 00:55:37.020 --> 00:55:37.280 Yeah. 00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:38.640 So a lot, a lot of data these days. 00:55:38.640 --> 00:55:39.060 All right. 00:55:39.060 --> 00:55:41.540 Well, you know, fantastic stuff you guys have coming up there. 00:55:41.540 --> 00:55:45.660 I guess maybe we should probably wrap it up just for the sake of time, but yeah, I guess 00:55:45.660 --> 00:55:49.460 we'll, we'll hit the two final questions I always ask. 00:55:49.460 --> 00:55:51.560 First of all, notable PyPI package. 00:55:51.560 --> 00:55:54.100 This is like something interesting that you ran across. 00:55:54.100 --> 00:55:57.400 Maybe you want to just share people that find useful, some Python library. 00:55:57.400 --> 00:55:58.320 I love testing. 00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:00.440 So test containers.python. 00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:04.560 That's a little inside joke that no one on here really knows, but I have, I have developer 00:56:04.560 --> 00:56:04.880 friends. 00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:09.440 So I will, one of my favorite things to argue against is testing just as a thought experiment, 00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:10.580 but it's, it's really fun. 00:56:10.580 --> 00:56:10.780 Right. 00:56:10.780 --> 00:56:13.140 But anyways, but don't listen to me. 00:56:13.140 --> 00:56:14.420 Testing is super important. 00:56:14.420 --> 00:56:14.860 Right. 00:56:14.860 --> 00:56:19.540 And being able to test in containers and pick off these prebuilt containers and use right 00:56:19.540 --> 00:56:23.000 in your, in your app, right in your code is super powerful, extremely powerful. 00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:25.100 So definitely interested in test containers. 00:56:25.100 --> 00:56:25.440 Yeah. 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:25.960 It's super cool. 00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:31.520 It lets you basically create a with block that says with my SQL container as my SQL or with 00:56:31.520 --> 00:56:33.980 my MongoDB and DB container as that. 00:56:33.980 --> 00:56:35.560 And it just fires up a Docker container. 00:56:35.680 --> 00:56:41.180 You do your tests within that thing and maybe use a high test fixture to preload the test 00:56:41.180 --> 00:56:42.800 data, then run your code against it. 00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:47.420 So instead of mocking out the database and mocking out Redis, you just run a test Redis 00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:49.960 and then throw it away, which I think that's fantastic. 00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:54.580 It's like hybrid between integration tests and unit tests, isolation type stuff. 00:56:54.580 --> 00:56:57.500 It goes back to our earlier conversations around reproducibility, right? 00:56:57.500 --> 00:56:57.940 Yeah. 00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:00.000 Having same environments are very important, right? 00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:00.580 Yeah, absolutely. 00:57:00.580 --> 00:57:04.020 And then final question, if you're going to write some code, what editor do you use these 00:57:04.020 --> 00:57:04.240 days? 00:57:04.240 --> 00:57:07.760 If you would have asked me that about two years ago, it would have been Sublime. 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:11.680 Been in a plain text editor, you know, back and forth, alt tabbing and back and forth 00:57:11.680 --> 00:57:12.540 between my terminal. 00:57:12.540 --> 00:57:14.340 But now I've fallen in love with VS Code. 00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:14.660 Yeah. 00:57:14.660 --> 00:57:15.780 It's extremely powerful. 00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:19.920 So I feel like Sublime, like so many of the people who love Sublime have just naturally 00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:21.140 moved to VS Code. 00:57:21.140 --> 00:57:22.380 I mean, Sublime was really cool. 00:57:22.380 --> 00:57:24.440 It just had all these like weird community stuff. 00:57:24.540 --> 00:57:28.660 Like there was Sublime and then Sublime 3 and there was like permanently in beta and like, 00:57:28.660 --> 00:57:29.560 are these getting updated? 00:57:29.560 --> 00:57:30.980 Which one is like the real thing? 00:57:30.980 --> 00:57:34.120 It's just, it was always kind of a little unclear where it was going. 00:57:34.120 --> 00:57:38.120 And then, you know, VS Code came along with a similar model and just said, well, why don't 00:57:38.120 --> 00:57:40.960 we put a hundred people just like constantly adding features to this? 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:41.600 Yeah, exactly. 00:57:41.600 --> 00:57:42.980 I don't know what the number is, but it's high. 00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:43.320 Yeah. 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:46.320 And it's interesting you say that because I was a long time Sublime. 00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:47.980 I bought it, right? 00:57:47.980 --> 00:57:48.860 And purchased it forever. 00:57:48.860 --> 00:57:52.860 And yeah, it was like two or three and I have a theme over here, but it doesn't work in three. 00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:53.540 And how do you get it? 00:57:53.540 --> 00:57:54.460 It was just weird. 00:57:54.460 --> 00:57:57.320 And then VS Code just kind of snuck in and I said, yeah, I'm going to use it. 00:57:57.320 --> 00:57:57.720 I'm going to use it. 00:57:57.720 --> 00:58:01.260 And now I keep just using, I use it as a text editor back then, right? 00:58:01.260 --> 00:58:03.440 And now I just keep using more and more features, plugins. 00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:06.380 I mean, the ecosystem around that is so powerful. 00:58:06.380 --> 00:58:07.100 There's neat stuff. 00:58:07.100 --> 00:58:09.760 And especially there's a lot of neat Docker things going on in it. 00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:09.940 Yeah. 00:58:09.940 --> 00:58:13.380 I'm going to run my VS Code in a Docker and then run, you know, dev containers. 00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:16.120 And it'll be like Inception. 00:58:16.120 --> 00:58:16.680 It'll be Docker. 00:58:16.680 --> 00:58:17.180 Yeah, a little Inception. 00:58:17.180 --> 00:58:18.540 Docker VS Code all the way down. 00:58:18.540 --> 00:58:19.560 All right. 00:58:19.560 --> 00:58:22.600 You got a moment for a couple more audience questions before we wrap it up? 00:58:22.600 --> 00:58:23.040 Absolutely. 00:58:23.040 --> 00:58:24.020 You know me. 00:58:24.020 --> 00:58:27.140 I'll chat away for days, but I know your audience might get bored. 00:58:27.140 --> 00:58:28.600 All right. 00:58:28.600 --> 00:58:30.220 So Brian Sands out there. 00:58:30.220 --> 00:58:35.240 Hey, Brian says, do you know of any good examples using Docker Compose with Postgres for persistent 00:58:35.240 --> 00:58:36.080 local storage? 00:58:36.080 --> 00:58:39.300 I have a hard time finding up-to-date working info to do this properly. 00:58:39.460 --> 00:58:39.700 Yeah. 00:58:39.700 --> 00:58:41.460 Check out Awesome Compose. 00:58:41.460 --> 00:58:43.080 So it's a GitHub repo. 00:58:43.080 --> 00:58:44.300 Docker owns it. 00:58:44.300 --> 00:58:46.500 So Awesome-Compose. 00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:51.600 I can't remember if it was under the Docker organization or not, but there's a ton of different 00:58:51.600 --> 00:58:53.360 kind of configurations with different stacks. 00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:54.380 That's super interesting. 00:58:54.380 --> 00:58:55.580 I had no idea about this. 00:58:55.580 --> 00:58:56.520 Good question, Brian. 00:58:56.680 --> 00:58:56.900 Yeah. 00:58:56.900 --> 00:58:57.420 Thank you, Brian. 00:58:57.420 --> 00:58:58.020 I paid him. 00:58:58.020 --> 00:58:59.060 I'll send you that. 00:58:59.060 --> 00:59:00.460 I'll Venmo you here in a minute. 00:59:00.460 --> 00:59:01.920 No, but yeah, check that out. 00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:05.920 If you can't get your specific stack, you're going to get something very close, right? 00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:07.460 So there's Flask in there. 00:59:07.460 --> 00:59:13.080 There's Nginx like Flask and Postgres, different kind of three-tiered stacks. 00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:15.200 And then within that, you'll have Docker files. 00:59:15.200 --> 00:59:18.040 And then you'll have a Compose file to kind of bring it all together. 00:59:18.040 --> 00:59:20.500 And you should get some really great examples in there. 00:59:20.720 --> 00:59:23.880 If not, please do hit me up on Twitter and I'll get you pointed in the right direction 00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:24.480 for sure. 00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:25.120 Yeah, very cool. 00:59:25.120 --> 00:59:25.440 Awesome. 00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:30.300 And then Tino asks, what is the current state of Windows-based Docker containers? 00:59:30.300 --> 00:59:31.560 I know there's Nano Server. 00:59:31.560 --> 00:59:32.960 I got to tread lightly on this one. 00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:37.960 You know, I was super excited when Microsoft, when we started supporting it for Windows containers. 00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:40.580 You know, the focus has been not as much. 00:59:40.580 --> 00:59:46.720 The amount of people actually using Windows containers is very, very small compared to Unix-based 00:59:46.720 --> 00:59:47.260 containers. 00:59:47.740 --> 00:59:50.760 So, you know, just because of that, the focus has not been on that. 00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:51.820 There's still a thing. 00:59:51.820 --> 00:59:53.240 They're still being developed on. 00:59:53.240 --> 00:59:56.840 They're just not as prominent in the industry for whatever reason, especially with .NET. 00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:01.180 Well, you know where I would say they probably, as is standard with Microsoft these days, 01:00:01.180 --> 01:00:06.180 their focus seems to be if it runs on Azure, we love it, right? 01:00:06.180 --> 01:00:11.000 This is where we will sacrifice many, many of the things so that it will run on Azure. 01:00:11.420 --> 01:00:15.720 And a lot of that, I believe, is check this thing in Windows and like say Visual Studio 01:00:15.720 --> 01:00:18.840 Code so I can push deploy to run on Docker on Azure. 01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:19.300 Yep. 01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:21.100 I think that's probably where a lot of it is. 01:00:21.100 --> 01:00:21.340 Yeah. 01:00:21.340 --> 01:00:24.040 And WSL2 is huge, right? 01:00:24.040 --> 01:00:25.760 So talking to the Microsoft folks, right? 01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:28.220 They want to be the place where you come. 01:00:28.220 --> 01:00:31.160 The Windows platform is the place you come for developing, right? 01:00:31.160 --> 01:00:33.840 So whether you're a Windows developer or Linux developer, right? 01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:34.900 You're using VS Code. 01:00:34.900 --> 01:00:35.960 You're running on Windows. 01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:40.080 You're using WSL2 for Unix development or you're using Windows for Windows development. 01:00:40.080 --> 01:00:41.460 That's their thought, right? 01:00:41.460 --> 01:00:45.700 So the underlying platforms kind of change and with containers, they can do some of that. 01:00:45.700 --> 01:00:49.100 So they're focusing a lot on WSL2, which is super powerful. 01:00:49.100 --> 01:00:49.520 Right. 01:00:49.520 --> 01:00:53.800 Which really just means make WSL2 good so that it runs on Ubuntu or something like that, 01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:53.940 right? 01:00:53.940 --> 01:00:56.160 I mean, we just leverage that Ubuntu Docker support, I suspect. 01:00:56.160 --> 01:00:56.420 Yeah. 01:00:56.420 --> 01:01:01.800 While we're talking platforms, I've been doing basically nothing but M1 stuff these 01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:02.180 days. 01:01:02.180 --> 01:01:07.380 Since mid-December, I thought I would, you know, I got my Mac mini M1 and I thought I'd be juggling 01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:08.880 this would work here, that would work there. 01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:12.100 And I just literally have just turned off my laptop and just do this. 01:01:12.100 --> 01:01:12.860 And I love it. 01:01:12.860 --> 01:01:14.800 What's the story of Docker and M1? 01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:15.200 Yeah. 01:01:15.200 --> 01:01:16.140 So we love Apple. 01:01:16.140 --> 01:01:20.080 It was nice to see our little, I don't know if you saw an Apple's keynote, you know, 01:01:20.080 --> 01:01:22.920 where you saw the Docker desktop on there, which was super cool. 01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:26.920 We're getting very, very close to shipping, you know, a release. 01:01:26.920 --> 01:01:27.340 Okay. 01:01:27.340 --> 01:01:27.960 A GA. 01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:28.320 Yeah. 01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:29.400 I mean, really close. 01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.040 I don't want to give a date or anything, but really close. 01:01:32.040 --> 01:01:32.580 But you know, tomorrow? 01:01:32.580 --> 01:01:33.040 Yeah. 01:01:33.040 --> 01:01:33.680 Tomorrow will be okay. 01:01:33.680 --> 01:01:34.220 We'll do that. 01:01:34.220 --> 01:01:35.240 I'll take it. 01:01:35.240 --> 01:01:35.840 Very, very close. 01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:36.680 They're working on it. 01:01:36.680 --> 01:01:40.800 It's one of our primary feature sets to finish, to get done, right? 01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:42.440 And again, it came from the community. 01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:44.280 It was our number one issue, right? 01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:48.620 When the M1s dropped, you know, I think everybody jumped into our GitHub issue and said, we need 01:01:48.620 --> 01:01:48.840 support. 01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:52.000 I think this whole M1 stuff has come out way stronger than I expected. 01:01:52.000 --> 01:01:54.180 I thought, oh, that'll be kind of a neat, who knows what they're doing. 01:01:54.180 --> 01:01:57.680 But like, as it came out, it's like, wow, this is really transformative in some ways. 01:01:57.680 --> 01:01:57.940 Yeah. 01:01:57.940 --> 01:01:59.260 You can get the tech preview. 01:01:59.260 --> 01:02:00.820 It's pretty stable right now. 01:02:00.820 --> 01:02:05.380 You know, it's just going to be on probably, you know, one-off little issues on your environment, 01:02:05.380 --> 01:02:10.200 how you run containers and what exactly, what container, you know, because they got to be 01:02:10.200 --> 01:02:11.360 compiled for the different lines. 01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:12.900 It's got to basically be an ARM image. 01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:13.220 Yeah. 01:02:13.220 --> 01:02:13.740 Yeah. 01:02:13.740 --> 01:02:17.480 And sometimes you run ARM, but then, you know, Mongo doesn't have an ARM version yet. 01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:20.720 So you're running an emulation and, you know, so there's those type of things. 01:02:20.720 --> 01:02:23.340 We're very, very close to releasing GA. 01:02:23.340 --> 01:02:24.080 Stay tuned. 01:02:24.080 --> 01:02:25.040 Next couple of weeks, I would say. 01:02:25.040 --> 01:02:25.240 Yeah. 01:02:25.240 --> 01:02:25.700 Fantastic. 01:02:25.700 --> 01:02:27.020 And shout out to the MongoDB people. 01:02:27.020 --> 01:02:27.820 Where's your M1 version? 01:02:27.820 --> 01:02:28.180 Come on. 01:02:28.180 --> 01:02:28.420 All right. 01:02:28.420 --> 01:02:29.140 Final question. 01:02:29.140 --> 01:02:30.020 We're going to wrap it up. 01:02:30.020 --> 01:02:36.940 Ricardo says, networking on Docker feels like it's easier with LXC, one of the other container 01:02:36.940 --> 01:02:37.600 styles. 01:02:37.600 --> 01:02:38.880 Am I doing something wrong? 01:02:39.060 --> 01:02:41.340 I'm interested in giving a container-in-zone IP address. 01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:42.240 Peter, this is you. 01:02:42.240 --> 01:02:42.780 I have no idea. 01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:43.140 Yeah. 01:02:43.140 --> 01:02:46.720 Ricardo, I thought I was going to get out of here without any networking questions. 01:02:46.720 --> 01:02:48.420 But Ricardo, you are not alone. 01:02:48.420 --> 01:02:50.920 Networking in containers is difficult, right? 01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:54.520 You got to deal with different networking technologies, even locally. 01:02:54.520 --> 01:02:56.340 So yeah, it's not easy. 01:02:56.340 --> 01:03:00.860 Is this easier in something like Swarm or Kubernetes or something else that maybe controls them more? 01:03:00.860 --> 01:03:02.380 No, it gets even more complicated. 01:03:02.380 --> 01:03:02.740 Okay. 01:03:02.740 --> 01:03:03.160 Yeah. 01:03:04.160 --> 01:03:07.920 Once you step outside of, if you have cloud-native apps, right? 01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:11.220 And I'm not a huge fan of that term because what the heck does that mean? 01:03:11.220 --> 01:03:12.460 But if you don't- 01:03:12.460 --> 01:03:14.220 I want to permanently pay to run my app forever. 01:03:14.220 --> 01:03:15.300 Thank you. 01:03:15.300 --> 01:03:17.420 Yeah, exactly. 01:03:17.420 --> 01:03:18.020 But yeah. 01:03:18.020 --> 01:03:23.000 So if you're in microservices, you're using configuration outside of your app to control 01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:23.700 your app, right? 01:03:23.700 --> 01:03:24.240 Is the best. 01:03:24.240 --> 01:03:25.980 But I see a lot of legacy apps. 01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:28.440 I'll do legacy in double quotes also, right? 01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:32.040 Because just meaning not more microservice type apps, right? 01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:36.340 And so you're trying to run those apps inside of containers and they have unique networking 01:03:36.340 --> 01:03:38.360 needs, unique volume needs, right? 01:03:38.360 --> 01:03:42.580 They're still writing to disk and reading from disk and you can't control that without changing 01:03:42.580 --> 01:03:47.220 code or they have IP addresses or subnets kind of hardwired in, right? 01:03:47.220 --> 01:03:48.340 And you can't do a lot of that. 01:03:48.340 --> 01:03:52.760 So you got to configure your networking around your app with inside a container and that's where 01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:54.060 the complexity comes in. 01:03:54.060 --> 01:04:00.660 So in this scenario, giving your container its own IP address, it's a little bit against 01:04:00.660 --> 01:04:01.860 best practices, right? 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:03.820 So containers should be ephemeral. 01:04:03.820 --> 01:04:05.120 They should go away, right? 01:04:05.120 --> 01:04:05.820 You should think of them. 01:04:05.820 --> 01:04:07.040 And I got to get a better analogy. 01:04:07.040 --> 01:04:12.720 My apologies to anybody if this offends you, but we used to think of our VMs as pets, right? 01:04:12.720 --> 01:04:17.180 And we take care of them, keep them up and love them and hope they live forever, right? 01:04:17.180 --> 01:04:18.380 Configure them. 01:04:18.380 --> 01:04:22.880 And then now you have containers, which are more like, let's say, I used to say cattle, but 01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:24.020 I'm more that offends people. 01:04:24.020 --> 01:04:26.960 So let's say consumable foods, right? 01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:28.860 You know, like you get- 01:04:28.860 --> 01:04:29.620 Fungible elements. 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:29.860 Yeah. 01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:32.740 So you get more like a cake, right? 01:04:32.740 --> 01:04:34.720 If I get cake in my house, I'm eating that, right? 01:04:34.720 --> 01:04:35.380 And it's gone. 01:04:35.380 --> 01:04:37.180 And then if I want new cake, I got to put new cake, right? 01:04:37.180 --> 01:04:37.980 So same with containers. 01:04:37.980 --> 01:04:38.160 It goes bad. 01:04:38.160 --> 01:04:39.600 You don't try to rehabilitate it. 01:04:39.600 --> 01:04:40.320 You just get new cake. 01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:40.840 Right, right. 01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:41.060 Yeah. 01:04:41.060 --> 01:04:44.660 But you don't eat half the cake and then bake, you know, put another bake the half. 01:04:44.660 --> 01:04:46.440 This analogy is going poor, but- 01:04:46.440 --> 01:04:47.500 Speak for yourself. 01:04:47.500 --> 01:04:48.860 We refill our cake. 01:04:48.860 --> 01:04:50.760 We don't ever want to go down to zero cake. 01:04:50.760 --> 01:04:51.040 Right. 01:04:51.040 --> 01:04:51.680 But that's the idea. 01:04:51.800 --> 01:04:55.140 So if you're assigning an IP to a container, that container goes away, right? 01:04:55.140 --> 01:04:58.780 And the idea is if I'm orchestrating that I have multiple containers all running, they 01:04:58.780 --> 01:05:00.560 shouldn't have the same IP, right? 01:05:00.560 --> 01:05:04.740 If one goes away, one comes back up, you don't want to, you know, so those are the type of 01:05:04.740 --> 01:05:05.500 things you're getting into. 01:05:05.500 --> 01:05:09.840 And Ricardo, you're probably shaking your head going, yes, but, but, but, but, but, and I 01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:10.380 totally- 01:05:10.380 --> 01:05:10.680 But I need it. 01:05:10.680 --> 01:05:11.120 Yeah. 01:05:11.120 --> 01:05:11.920 I totally understand. 01:05:11.920 --> 01:05:14.100 And you can do it, but it's just a little more complex. 01:05:14.100 --> 01:05:14.700 Yeah. 01:05:14.700 --> 01:05:17.640 A little hard to answer on, you know, with a couple of minutes here, but- 01:05:17.640 --> 01:05:17.660 Yeah. 01:05:17.660 --> 01:05:18.660 I hit you up on Twitter. 01:05:18.780 --> 01:05:19.020 All right. 01:05:19.020 --> 01:05:21.000 So thank you so much for being here, Peter. 01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:21.700 It's super interesting. 01:05:21.700 --> 01:05:22.580 Final call to action. 01:05:22.580 --> 01:05:25.720 People want to get started maybe making Docker more of their life. 01:05:25.720 --> 01:05:26.380 What do they do? 01:05:26.380 --> 01:05:27.820 Definitely go hit me up on Twitter. 01:05:27.820 --> 01:05:28.560 Say hello. 01:05:28.560 --> 01:05:29.760 Love to talk to folks. 01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:31.020 Join our community. 01:05:31.020 --> 01:05:32.480 Jump into community Slack. 01:05:32.480 --> 01:05:35.400 If you're, questions like that, Ricardo, the community's there. 01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:36.800 They'll be very, very helpful. 01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:39.180 A lot of our engineers, our developers are in there. 01:05:39.180 --> 01:05:40.440 All of our PMs are in there. 01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:41.600 Ton of captains are in there. 01:05:41.600 --> 01:05:42.880 Docker captains are in there. 01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:44.120 And they're very, very helpful. 01:05:44.120 --> 01:05:46.400 So this is a great way to get plugged into the community. 01:05:46.740 --> 01:05:49.320 And then the last thing is DockerCon is coming up here in the May. 01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:50.760 Sign up for DockerCon. 01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:52.700 It's going to be an online live event. 01:05:52.700 --> 01:05:56.960 Last year, we had 80,000 registrants, a really, really big show. 01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:59.160 So you're not going to want to miss a great content coming. 01:05:59.160 --> 01:06:01.400 You get to see more of my smiley face. 01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:03.540 And then CFP is still open. 01:06:03.540 --> 01:06:05.100 We're getting ready to close it on the 15th. 01:06:05.100 --> 01:06:07.960 So if you ever thought about giving a talk, right? 01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:08.740 Please submit. 01:06:08.740 --> 01:06:11.880 If you're a first-time speaker, don't let that deter you, right? 01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:15.100 DockerCon is traditionally a pretty big conference and well-attended, right? 01:06:15.100 --> 01:06:18.120 And it might, you know, first-time speakers might not submit. 01:06:18.120 --> 01:06:18.720 Please do. 01:06:18.720 --> 01:06:20.020 We do read all of them. 01:06:20.020 --> 01:06:22.760 And we do take an account, you know, what you've done in the past. 01:06:22.760 --> 01:06:24.700 But we also do look for new speakers, right? 01:06:24.700 --> 01:06:25.360 A hundred percent. 01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:27.420 Don't let that deter you, for sure. 01:06:27.420 --> 01:06:27.820 All right. 01:06:27.820 --> 01:06:28.400 Fantastic. 01:06:28.400 --> 01:06:29.680 Well, thanks for taking the time, Peter. 01:06:29.680 --> 01:06:30.760 It's been great to chat with you about this. 01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:31.000 Yeah. 01:06:31.000 --> 01:06:32.140 Hey, thanks for having me on. 01:06:32.140 --> 01:06:33.000 Really enjoyed it. 01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:33.320 You bet. 01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:33.760 See you later. 01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:34.160 All right, bye. 01:06:34.160 --> 01:06:38.080 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 01:06:38.080 --> 01:06:42.720 Our guest on this episode was Peter McKee, and it's been brought to you by Datadog and 01:06:42.720 --> 01:06:44.280 us over at Talk Python Training. 01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:48.280 Datadog gives you visibility into the whole system running your code. 01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:52.080 Visit talkpython.fm/datadog and see what you've been missing. 01:06:52.080 --> 01:06:54.260 Don't 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our recordings these days. 01:07:29.900 --> 01:07:34.020 If you want to be part of the show and have your comments featured on the air, be sure to 01:07:34.020 --> 01:07:37.740 subscribe to our YouTube channel at talkpython.fm/youtube. 01:07:37.740 --> 01:07:39.580 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 01:07:39.580 --> 01:07:40.880 Thanks so much for listening. 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:42.040 I really appreciate it. 01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:43.940 Now get out there and write some Python code. 01:07:43.940 --> 01:07:44.940 Bye. 01:07:44.940 --> 01:07:45.940 Bye. 01:07:45.940 --> 01:07:45.940 Bye. 01:07:45.940 --> 01:07:45.940 Bye. 01:07:45.940 --> 01:07:46.940 Bye. 01:07:46.940 --> 01:07:47.940 Bye. 01:07:47.940 --> 01:07:48.940 Bye. 01:07:48.940 --> 01:07:49.940 Bye. 01:07:49.940 --> 01:07:50.940 Bye. 01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:51.940 Bye. 01:07:51.940 --> 01:07:52.940 Bye. 01:07:52.940 --> 01:07:53.940 Bye. 01:07:53.940 --> 01:07:54.940 Bye. 01:07:54.940 --> 01:07:55.940 Bye. 01:07:55.940 --> 01:07:56.940 Bye. 01:07:56.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:57.940 Bye. 01:07:57.940 --> 01:07:58.940 Bye. 01:07:58.940 --> 01:07:59.940 Bye. 01:07:59.940 --> 01:07:59.940 Bye. 01:07:59.940 --> 01:08:00.940 Bye. 01:08:00.940 --> 01:08:01.440 you 01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:01.940 you 01:08:01.940 --> 01:08:03.940 Thank you. 01:08:03.940 --> 01:08:33.920 Thank you.