WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.360 How do you go from poking around at Python code to actually solving real problems the right way? 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:10.420 Well, there are many paths. The longest one probably is to get a four-year computer science 00:00:10.420 --> 00:00:16.320 degree. Maybe faster, but pricey still, is a solid in-person developer bootcamp. 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:19.980 But have you considered reaching out to the community to find a mentor? 00:00:19.980 --> 00:00:24.960 Many Python meetups have project nights where folks who could help will be attending. 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.900 And if you're up for giving back, maybe you could become a mentor at one of these events. 00:00:29.440 --> 00:00:34.260 That's what this episode is about. We'll hear from two former guests of Talk Python, 00:00:34.260 --> 00:00:39.200 Rusty Gregory and Doug Farrell. They teamed up and are back to share their mentorship story. 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:44.500 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 254, recorded February 14th, 2020. 00:00:58.080 --> 00:01:03.240 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.920 and the personalities. This is your host, Michael Kennedy. Follow me on Twitter where I'm at, 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:13.220 mkennedy. Keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm. And follow the show on 00:01:13.220 --> 00:01:18.200 Twitter via at Talk Python. This episode is sponsored by Brilliant.org and Linode. Please 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:21.540 check out what they're offering during their segments. It really helps support the show. 00:01:22.320 --> 00:01:25.040 Rusty and Doug, welcome back to Talk Python To Me. 00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:26.480 Thanks, Michael. Glad to be here. 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:27.160 Good to be back. 00:01:27.160 --> 00:01:34.160 Yeah, it's great to have you back. So, Rusty, you were on episode 194 previously about learning 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:41.820 and teaching Python in a vacuum. And back then, we talked about how you were in not super populated 00:01:41.820 --> 00:01:46.600 part, a small town in Vermont, and you were working at elementary school, right? 00:01:46.660 --> 00:01:47.180 Correct. Yep. 00:01:47.180 --> 00:01:53.520 Yeah, yeah. Helping teach kids programming concepts and other things. And then, Doug, 00:01:53.520 --> 00:01:58.020 we had you on back like 12 episodes before then. 00:01:58.020 --> 00:02:03.480 I was teaching kindergarten directly and then basically just kind of made sure everybody else 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:09.640 could do whatever they needed to do with computers, whether it was teachers or students, and basically 00:02:09.640 --> 00:02:14.760 just kind of all-around resource for people. We had another person that worked with the equipment. 00:02:14.760 --> 00:02:19.320 I was the people person, the bridge between that kind of the technology and all the students 00:02:19.320 --> 00:02:22.760 and teachers. And I also taught web design at a community college. 00:02:22.760 --> 00:02:29.100 That's super cool. And Doug, you were on episode 182, Picture Python at Shutterfly, where you 00:02:29.100 --> 00:02:33.340 talked about how you guys are using Python over at Shutterfly, which is a photo sharing, photo 00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:34.460 book site, right? 00:02:34.460 --> 00:02:37.180 Yes, correct. We use it quite a bit and doing more of that. 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:40.120 Super. You guys got a lot of API stuff going on there, I'm guessing. 00:02:40.320 --> 00:02:45.740 Oh, yeah. A lot of rest calls and RabbitMQ stuff. And we're actually getting into AWS. So 00:02:45.740 --> 00:02:47.240 that's an interesting twist for us. 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:51.700 Oh, yeah. That's going to be exciting. And I know you because you were on the show before, 00:02:51.700 --> 00:02:55.960 but also I've read some of your articles on RealPython and you're writing a book. You're 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.020 doing a lot of things. You're keeping yourself busy for sure, right? 00:02:59.020 --> 00:03:04.140 Thank you. I've been enjoying writing the articles for RealPython and that actually led to a book 00:03:04.140 --> 00:03:08.020 proposal and actual book that I'm writing for Manning Publishing, which is fun and a little 00:03:08.020 --> 00:03:11.320 nerve wracking. Yeah, that's for sure. What's the book title? 00:03:11.320 --> 00:03:16.180 The Well-Grounded Python Developer. The proposal is, and I'm going to try to fulfill it, is that 00:03:16.180 --> 00:03:20.860 there's a lot of beginner books and there's a lot of expert books and cookbooks, but not much stuff 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:26.620 that helps a beginning developer transition more towards an expert. So that's kind of what I'm 00:03:26.620 --> 00:03:33.160 trying to do is convey how to help somebody who's got a basic tool set move into thinking about bigger 00:03:33.160 --> 00:03:35.900 projects, the big picture stuff and think like a developer. 00:03:35.900 --> 00:03:38.460 You know, that's a really big step, I think. 00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:38.900 Yeah. 00:03:38.900 --> 00:03:44.660 It's easy to go around and say, I want to learn language X. So I want to learn what a loop is, 00:03:44.660 --> 00:03:50.180 what a variable is, how do I call a function? But then you go to actually create a program and you're 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:54.200 like, it's like deer in the headlights or, you know, writer's block or something. It's just like, 00:03:54.200 --> 00:03:59.600 I don't really know how to put the pieces together. Right. And the advanced stuff is too hard. 00:03:59.760 --> 00:04:02.800 Yeah. It's like knowing how to use a hammer, but he doesn't know how to build anything. 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:06.580 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I think that sounds like a cool project that you're working on. Great. 00:04:06.580 --> 00:04:07.280 Yeah. It'll be fun. 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:13.180 Yeah. So at the beginning, Rusty, I think maybe it would be fun. You talked about a little bit 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:19.520 before we hit record about sort of the progress that you've made. So maybe give people a sense of 00:04:19.520 --> 00:04:25.740 the challenges. You know, that was a really popular episode that you did with me way back when, 00:04:26.340 --> 00:04:30.880 and I guess that's probably a year and a half ago. So it's, it's been a while, but so you've 00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:35.760 made a lot of progress and I guess to sum it up, like one of your main challenges was you're in this 00:04:35.760 --> 00:04:42.040 position where you need to have a fair amount of expertise in the software that you're working with. 00:04:42.040 --> 00:04:47.620 And yet being in a small town, it's really hard to go to meetups or to find folks to collaborate 00:04:47.620 --> 00:04:51.800 with. And if you're the only one at the place you work, well, that's also doesn't help, right? 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:56.780 Yeah. That was, I was actually learning with a colleague of mine who was kind of interested 00:04:56.780 --> 00:05:01.360 in getting into Python a little bit. And so we were both learning at the same time and then he 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:05.720 promptly got another job with a different school district. So then I was, by myself again. 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:10.320 And, it was, you know, it's a lot more fun when you can bounce ideas off people and everything. 00:05:10.320 --> 00:05:13.360 So I was getting started to get a little bit frustrated. I was starting to want to be able 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:14.800 to do more than I, than I could. 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:20.580 You know, what I think is interesting is everyone gets stuck when they're doing programming 00:05:20.580 --> 00:05:25.500 or they're working on software projects. You know, I remember not long ago, some library 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:30.000 I was trying to use, I'm like, why does it not do the thing it's supposed to do? You know, 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.100 and I've been programming for like 20 years. Right. But still I'm, I'm sitting here pulling 00:05:34.100 --> 00:05:39.700 my hair out because it seems like it says it's going to do X and it's not doing it for whatever 00:05:39.700 --> 00:05:44.740 reason. Right. And the thing that I think somebody somewhere knows how to make it do that. 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:49.660 Exactly. But here's what I think is interesting is I think, you know, everyone gets stuck, 00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:53.700 but they don't always get stuck in the same place. Right. I might get to a part and I'm 00:05:53.700 --> 00:05:56.780 stuck here, but you've already figured that out, but you're stuck on something else. Right. 00:05:56.780 --> 00:06:00.960 But if we could just talk to each other and go, Hey, I tried this and I'm, I'm stuck. Like, 00:06:00.960 --> 00:06:04.540 you know, I did that. And it was, yeah, I remember that was hard, but now here, you can just like 00:06:04.540 --> 00:06:09.840 help each other over these little hurdles much easier if you can interact with somebody. 00:06:09.840 --> 00:06:14.700 Right. Stack overflows there, you know, when you have the time to, you know, craft a half 00:06:14.700 --> 00:06:19.260 an hour question about, you know, two lines of code to make sure you don't get ridiculed or, 00:06:19.260 --> 00:06:23.380 or whatever's going to happen if you don't, you know, freeze your question in the correct way and 00:06:23.380 --> 00:06:28.700 show that you've, you know, tried all these other things. And, and yeah, so there, yes. Being able 00:06:28.700 --> 00:06:30.720 to just ask somebody that, you know, is, is awesome. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:36.580 These public spaces that you can go like stack overflow or Reddit or whatever, they can be kind 00:06:36.580 --> 00:06:41.800 of rough, but let me tell you, I learned a program when it required a book when there was like 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:47.720 hardly even in the internet. And when you got stuck, it was like, you know what, let's go get 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:53.020 in the car and drive for 20 minutes and hope that there was a book at Barnes and Nobles or one of 00:06:53.020 --> 00:06:58.740 these other weird places that kept all these trees and buildings in square form. And you would go there 00:06:58.740 --> 00:07:04.220 and you would go through it. Like, so I guess the reason I put it out is like, it's kind of a love, 00:07:04.220 --> 00:07:10.460 hate relationship. Like I can type an error into stack, into Google and likely a stack overflow thing 00:07:10.460 --> 00:07:15.260 helps me nine out of 10 times. I don't have to ask the question. Right. But it can be rough to get out 00:07:15.260 --> 00:07:20.040 there and ask questions like, didn't you read the manual or that's a stupid way to do it or whatever. 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:24.780 You're like, well, how about you just say a better way to do it would be this, because I only asked this 00:07:24.780 --> 00:07:28.380 way because this is the best I got. Right. I'm trying to learn, like, take it easy on me. 00:07:28.380 --> 00:07:33.180 Yeah. Lots of times in the early days, you don't have the vocabulary to explain what it is, or you don't 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:37.640 understand this concept that you want to go. Like for me, it was databases. Like I didn't even know how to get 00:07:37.640 --> 00:07:41.980 started or how to, how to do things like that. So I had to like think through all of that. You can't 00:07:41.980 --> 00:07:48.420 do that in a, in a forum really. Right. Right. It's too general. So yeah. So I guess long story short, 00:07:48.420 --> 00:07:53.500 long question short, give us a quick update on what you've done. You've taken a couple of courses. 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:59.720 Obviously you found a great mentorship story, which we're going to dig into, but just give us the recap. 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:05.060 Yeah, it was great. So when we talked last time, I was doing a few things, processing, you know, 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:10.160 pictures and, and writing a few little apps that interacted with Google sheets. And then 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:15.940 I took a Java course, a Python course at an access course at the community college that I teach at, 00:08:15.940 --> 00:08:20.060 because I was able to do them, you know, pretty much for free. And I only took access because the 00:08:20.060 --> 00:08:25.300 SQL course kept getting canceled. So I figured that was the best I could do. And it worked out. I 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:34.420 understand, you know, I wasn't happy, but I did it. Yeah. And then, I got a call from Doug 00:08:34.460 --> 00:08:39.480 afterwards, which we'll talk about after we talked last time, but, and after Doug and I connected, 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:44.740 I was able to build a flask app that was like asynchronous play for this board game that I was 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:49.080 interested in. It was basically just, it held your cards, you know, in between, but I built a 00:08:49.080 --> 00:08:54.160 dashboard for users, put a database on it, notification emails when it was your turn. 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:59.680 I was really just kind of, I was spending like 25 hours a week on it at the time. Cause I was using 00:08:59.680 --> 00:09:04.060 this thing called walk a time that talks to Adam and I think it works for a PyCharm as well. 00:09:04.060 --> 00:09:07.780 Cool. So walk a times like time tracking, if you want to know how you're spending your time. 00:09:07.780 --> 00:09:11.820 Yep. When you open up your editor, it keeps track what language you're using at the time. 00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:12.380 Oh, interesting. 00:09:12.380 --> 00:09:16.700 Yeah. And it was, it's really great with Adam. I couldn't get it to work very well with Python, 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:21.600 uh, with a PyCharm, but, I'm sure there's a way to make that happen. Yeah. So, I mean, 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:27.020 that was just really exciting to go from, I was a web guy before, but, to be able to make 00:09:27.020 --> 00:09:31.940 an app that did all these things was just blew me away. And I had a blast that I, you know, 00:09:31.940 --> 00:09:35.620 try and stop me from coding on the weekend, getting up at seven in the morning and working on it. It was a 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:36.100 good time. 00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:41.160 It's such a cool experience when you're like, just, you wake up, you're like, I gotta, I gotta get back 00:09:41.160 --> 00:09:43.900 to it. I really was. I'm not done. I still have these ideas. It's wonderful. 00:09:43.900 --> 00:09:47.980 Yeah. It was, it was a lot of fun. It even made me want to put up with the question of like, can I 00:09:47.980 --> 00:09:51.480 download this in the app store? You know, that's the first question I would show it to people. I'd be 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:56.500 so excited. Like, Oh, can I, no, it's, it's not an iOS app. It's, it's actually a web app and 00:09:56.500 --> 00:10:00.280 it's in Python and nobody really cares. But anyway, I was pretty excited. 00:10:00.280 --> 00:10:04.940 You just got to show them how to put like a little icon, like save a shortcut to the desktop. 00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:07.720 Yeah. Their eyes just glaze over after you say no. 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:09.840 I hear you. 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:15.200 I started to, rebuild one of my first apps as well. Since then, try and do, you know, 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:21.240 build on what I had done before. And what was that experience like with, more experienced eyes? 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:27.700 It was wonderful. I was able to go back in and just make everything so much simpler to read. I 00:10:27.700 --> 00:10:33.360 discovered, flask sessions, which just made a world of difference. Once I was able to put things 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.920 into a cookie then and persist it over pages was awesome because before I had, 00:10:37.920 --> 00:10:43.360 I had to come up with this hack that I was doing it. I went from sending it as a hidden piece in a web 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:49.920 form. So every page had to be a form to figuring out how to do that. And yeah, it was, it was good. 00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:51.420 It was really rewarding. 00:10:51.640 --> 00:10:56.760 Nice. Well, it sounds like you're making really, really good progress there. And I now know about 00:10:56.760 --> 00:10:59.980 walk a time, which is apparently a thing I'm going to have to dig into. 00:10:59.980 --> 00:11:00.680 Check that out. 00:11:01.900 --> 00:11:03.920 For sure. And Doug, how about you? What have you been up to? 00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:04.680 You might not want to know. 00:11:04.680 --> 00:11:10.180 I have another article coming out on real Python, which was insane to do with the book. And then, 00:11:10.180 --> 00:11:15.980 uh, all of my free time, every spare second, that's not tied to work is involved in the book. 00:11:15.980 --> 00:11:20.740 And then just work has been very busy. the fourth quarter for us is insane. So 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:23.220 it's been a very busy time. And then, right. 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:25.340 Yeah. So I've just been very busy with that stuff. 00:11:25.460 --> 00:11:30.180 Yeah. This is like the big holiday rush. Everyone's going to get photo books for Christmas 00:11:30.180 --> 00:11:32.100 or something like that, right? 00:11:32.100 --> 00:11:34.800 Yeah. The fourth quarter is like a huge. 00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:40.420 So Black Friday, that's like a, a legitimate thing that makes the business go for you guys, 00:11:40.420 --> 00:11:41.900 right? Like gets you back in the black. 00:11:41.900 --> 00:11:45.880 Yeah. They put us, they put, they, they try to put like the police tape around the entire system 00:11:45.880 --> 00:11:50.160 so that we don't touch it after that. So it doesn't break. But at the same time, 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:52.320 it's constantly like wants new features. 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:54.780 Can't have it both ways, can you? 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:00.140 Yeah. I saw a really cool joke cartoon type of thing. And it just said the first rule 00:12:00.140 --> 00:12:03.840 of programming is if it's not broke, don't touch it. 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:08.280 That's really an excellent optimization. 00:12:08.280 --> 00:12:13.760 Yeah. I'm not sure if it's really good advice, but I certainly know the feeling and you know, 00:12:13.760 --> 00:12:19.480 I know the feeling even more when it's software that I didn't originally write and I'm not especially 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:24.660 fond of or, or think it's like well written. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, if you touch that and break it, 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:29.320 it becomes yours. Like, no, no, it's fine. We don't need to, it's fine over there. It's just, 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:32.700 we're going to let it do its thing. If you want to touch it, you can fix it, but not at all. 00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:40.940 Cool. All right. So let's jump into the main topic here, which I think is going to be a lot of fun. 00:12:41.020 --> 00:12:50.000 So as I mentioned before, both of you have been on the show, episode 194 and 182. And I don't remember 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:55.960 which direction it went, but I know that one of you guys reached out to the other after you were both 00:12:55.960 --> 00:13:00.740 on the show saying, Hey, it sounds like there might be some chance for us to work together or help each 00:13:00.740 --> 00:13:06.120 other out. And you all started working together through that, right? Let's give us the story there. 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:12.640 I had listened to the episode that Rusty was on and I really liked, I really enjoyed it. And I thought, 00:13:12.640 --> 00:13:17.540 you know, I thought to myself, there's a real opportunity not only to help, help out, but to 00:13:17.540 --> 00:13:23.840 have him help me. I am teaching sometimes at this STEM place near me. And of course the writing, 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:30.160 the articles is sort of like teaching. And plus I had taught many years ago and realized how difficult 00:13:30.160 --> 00:13:36.000 it is. And I was struggling at the STEM course with STEM place teaching kids. And I thought, 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.560 you know, Rusty could really be helpful. And I, I've been in that position as a self-taught programmer. 00:13:40.560 --> 00:13:47.920 I learned myself all of the languages that I know. And so I've been subject to trying to figure things 00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:51.900 out. And I've been at the hands of divas who didn't really want to help me as much as give me a hard 00:13:51.900 --> 00:13:56.860 time. And I thought, you know, I could save Rusty some time and avoid that. I reached out to him 00:13:56.860 --> 00:14:01.960 through you to see if he'd be interested in connecting. And, and he was, which was great. 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:06.780 That's really cool. And I'm pleasantly surprised to see that you all have gotten so much and made so 00:14:06.780 --> 00:14:12.280 much progress and done so much collaboration. That's, that's great. And so Rusty, I guess it's 00:14:12.280 --> 00:14:17.600 also maybe worth mentioning that you got a new position where you're actually doing more programming 00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:23.400 and this, this aspect of life is actually even more relevant to you these days, right? 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.980 Yeah, it's, it was, it was really good that we had a new, with a change of kind of leadership 00:14:27.980 --> 00:14:33.380 and our tech team in the school district that I'm at. And the new guy was not as technical as perhaps 00:14:33.380 --> 00:14:39.580 the guy before him. So I got to help out with a lot of different reports that had to be filed and things, 00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:43.780 which the average person would probably not find that exciting, but it was great. I got to, 00:14:43.780 --> 00:14:48.040 you know, use some Python pandas to clean data and all the things I'd heard about basically listen to 00:14:48.040 --> 00:14:51.740 your podcast. And I was like, why would somebody want to use a Jupyter notebook? And then, 00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:56.300 you know, I figured out a reason why I might want to do that. Yeah, it was good. So now I'm the data 00:14:56.300 --> 00:15:01.300 manager for my district. I left teaching. I still leave in the middle of the day from programming and 00:15:01.300 --> 00:15:08.280 go and teach kindergarten. And then I will come back and finish off my day writing a SQL and, 00:15:08.280 --> 00:15:14.060 and plugins for a power school and things. But so it's an interesting break. 00:15:14.060 --> 00:15:19.800 No, they didn't have anybody to do it when I, when I took the job. So this year, so. 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:21.620 Oh, you're a voluntold. I understand. 00:15:21.620 --> 00:15:24.140 Exactly. You can do this, but. 00:15:24.140 --> 00:15:28.400 Here's a, you got to help out here. That sounds wonderful. You describe it. It's always like 00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:32.840 these reports. A lot of people really wouldn't be that keen to do it or whatever. But I remember 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:37.240 my first programming job, it could have been almost anything they were having me do. I'm just like, 00:15:37.540 --> 00:15:43.460 I'm sitting here at this computer. I was C++ at the time. Like I'm writing C++ code. They're paying 00:15:43.460 --> 00:15:48.580 me. And I have this book and I get to learn it while they're paying me. Like this is heaven, 00:15:48.580 --> 00:15:52.620 right? Like, I mean, it wasn't even that advanced to stuff. Right. But for me, it was like, 00:15:52.620 --> 00:15:56.780 I'm in, I can't believe it. Like, how have they not found out I don't belong here? I'm going to 00:15:56.780 --> 00:15:59.520 figure out this before they catch out onto it and get me out of here again. 00:15:59.520 --> 00:16:01.560 Yeah. Where's security being escorting me out? 00:16:01.560 --> 00:16:03.560 Exactly. Right. Exactly. 00:16:03.560 --> 00:16:08.580 It's been really good. I've been really enjoying the kind of the blending of, you know, education and 00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:13.180 programming at the same time. So I'm still involved in school and I've never had an adult job that 00:16:13.180 --> 00:16:17.100 didn't involve school, you know, working at school. So it's been, it's been a great process. 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:24.160 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by Brilliant.org. Brilliant's mission is to help 00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:28.700 people achieve their learning goals. 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So get started at 00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:07.980 talkpython.fm/brilliant, or just click the link in your show notes. 00:17:09.740 --> 00:17:18.040 Do you feel that schools, elementary, middle, high school types level of schools are underserved from 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:20.920 like custom software or software that solves their problems? 00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:27.180 That is a perfect question. Yes, because we don't have the money that industry has. So all the services 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:34.920 go towards people who can pay for it. And schools have to, we get this generic thing that can be bent to 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:39.360 our will, but have a lack of resources amount of people who can do it. You know, there's a district 00:17:39.360 --> 00:17:44.720 down in, in Burlington. It's the big city in Vermont. And you know, there's a data team of six people. 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:49.800 You know, they, they hired a data scientist and stuff. And, and in my school district on the, 00:17:49.800 --> 00:17:54.800 on the edge of civilization, we have me and I've been there for eight months, you know? 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.280 You're on the outpost way out there. 00:17:57.280 --> 00:17:57.600 That's right. 00:17:57.600 --> 00:17:59.620 Yeah. 00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:08.120 Yeah. That's an interesting point because if I go to any major fortune 500 company or pretty much any 00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:13.280 startup, almost any startup or, you know, even middle-sized companies, right? They all have a 00:18:13.280 --> 00:18:16.320 software IT group, right? Right. 00:18:16.320 --> 00:18:20.680 Maybe it's only five people and they're not super advanced, but there's a team of people who write 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:25.120 software to make that place run. Like the place I was telling you about where I was doing the C++ 00:18:25.120 --> 00:18:31.140 stuff. That was like six people, you know, and they still had somebody hired to work there as a 00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:37.240 developer and build software. So I just feel like there's probably a lot of opportunity to give a 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:43.280 little bit of programming skill to folks at the non-college, non-university level schools to empower 00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:44.560 them to do, do more. 00:18:44.560 --> 00:18:49.900 I agree. You always say that, you know, Python is maybe your superpower at work and it's very much true 00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:54.800 where we're at. You know, there's very few people have the time to slow down and write 00:18:54.800 --> 00:18:59.840 code like I do at the moment. A lot of people that have my job around the state, it's been added on. 00:18:59.840 --> 00:19:03.940 Oh yeah, you're going to do this data portion as well as whatever. And I'm in the pretty unique 00:19:03.940 --> 00:19:08.020 position where I was hired to do that. So it's, it's been, it's been great. 00:19:08.020 --> 00:19:10.580 That's cool. And you want to, right? You're not voluntold. 00:19:10.580 --> 00:19:11.520 Exactly. I asked. 00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:18.820 Nice. And Doug, you had mentioned that you're a self-taught developer. Like I am mostly, I took, 00:19:19.020 --> 00:19:24.920 I needed a couple of credits at the university for a minor in computer science and other types 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:29.780 of stuff. But for the most part, I'm pretty much self-taught. So I'm pretty sympathetic about 00:19:29.780 --> 00:19:35.860 those sorts of challenges and whatnot, but maybe just give us the quick story of, of that for you. 00:19:35.860 --> 00:19:37.240 Cause I'm sure that'll resonate. 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:42.020 I graduated with a BS in physics, which I tell the joke all the time with a BS in physics, 00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:45.060 I'm completely qualified to get coffee for the other physicists. 00:19:45.060 --> 00:19:54.080 But by the senior year, I did a project where we built a very primitive cat scanner, which was a 00:19:54.080 --> 00:19:58.420 computer controlled cat scanner. And I got hooked. I bought a Radio Shack color computer, 00:19:58.420 --> 00:20:04.500 taught myself a basic and a little bit of assembler. And that was enough to get my first 00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:09.800 job as an engineer after college, doing process control. And I was off and running doing 00:20:09.800 --> 00:20:16.600 programming and I worked in Fortran and Pascal and CC++ PHP and then now Python and 00:20:16.600 --> 00:20:17.620 JavaScript quite a bit. 00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:19.780 Yeah. You've seen a lot of them. That's, that's super cool. 00:20:19.780 --> 00:20:20.200 Yeah. 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:24.740 Yeah. So that, that starts when there are books before the internet, before Stack Overflow, right? 00:20:24.740 --> 00:20:28.640 Oh, this was, this starts before that, before books, this was like BBSs. 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:35.860 So BBSs, that's like the internet that you go to. That's really slow and it makes sound and only 00:20:35.860 --> 00:20:37.520 one person can be on at a time, right? 00:20:37.520 --> 00:20:42.100 Yeah. My education was continually slowed down by getting phone calls from friends. 00:20:42.100 --> 00:20:42.480 Yes. 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:48.480 I remember that. We actually had two phone lines at my house just so my brothers and I could 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:53.780 all be on either internet dial up or on BBSs at the same time. And it was still a problem, 00:20:53.780 --> 00:20:54.180 right? 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:54.480 Yeah. 00:20:54.480 --> 00:21:00.900 We'd have like call waiting come in and knock us off and oh my God. All right. So fun, 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:06.260 fun time. So tell me about what you guys have worked on, especially in the beginning, I guess, 00:21:06.260 --> 00:21:11.820 Rusty, go ahead and maybe start this conversation now. Like, so Doug reached out to you and you're 00:21:11.820 --> 00:21:16.940 like, wait, this guy, just this random guy on the internet. That's really, yeah, that's really 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:20.700 knowledgeable, wants to help me out. Like, what is this? And so where did you start? And like, 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:22.160 what was that like when you got that message? 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.860 I'd said earlier that, well, I didn't say on the podcast, but it was great because Doug 00:21:25.860 --> 00:21:30.300 wanted to exchange kind of some teaching knowledge with Python knowledge. And I said that I basically 00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:35.360 won the lottery and got somebody who knew exactly what I wanted. And Doug lost out because he's 00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:41.020 already a good teacher, but I still needed lots of help. So I just started asking questions. I wanted 00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:46.880 to go further with Flask and started to build that, you know, database app, the kind of asynchronous 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:54.400 kind of card playing app. And I had no experience with, with databases or not. So he kind of showed 00:21:54.400 --> 00:22:00.360 me a, luckily he was writing an article on something very similar and kind of talked me through starting 00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:07.620 to use SQLAlchemy. And it just kind of got started. And I asked him questions about database design and 00:22:07.620 --> 00:22:12.720 I would, I would craft emails. And then, you know, there's a, we had about one or two day delay just 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:18.380 because we're both busy people and that's how we kind of started. And then I started to ask more and 00:22:18.380 --> 00:22:24.420 more questions and it helped a lot that we had a lot of common ground. We're both cyclists. We both 00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:29.700 enjoyed Python and teaching. So there was a lot of, you know, banter. And I tend to try and ask a lot 00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.220 of personal questions when I'm working with people as well, just to kind of get to know them better. 00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:40.080 So started to build my app and, and I was able to go, you know, and say, Hey, I'm having problems with 00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:44.520 this. I didn't have to explain everything from the beginning or, yeah, it was just a really 00:22:44.520 --> 00:22:51.000 wonderful experience for me to be able to, just have get stuck and, you know, within a day, 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.500 be completely unstuck and probably looking at a different feature. 00:22:54.500 --> 00:22:59.180 Yeah. That's really interesting. You know, like those types of assistance or whatever, 00:22:59.180 --> 00:23:03.140 when you're new, you can be stuck on something for like five hours and you're like this, 00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:09.220 I just don't know. I just tried everything. And somebody who's gone through it a few times, 00:23:09.220 --> 00:23:13.540 like, Oh yeah, that's confusing. But when I figured it out, it was X. Right. And then, 00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:18.940 so there's a lot of effort and that's potentially for like staying in touch and coordinating, but 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:23.280 sometimes you can just look at something, Oh, that's really easy. And it's, it's just such a 00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:28.500 service to you. Right. To just be able to receive that and go, Oh my gosh. Right. I so appreciate it. 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:31.820 Whereas like the person who do it, like, it's okay. Well, I just called it out of my memory. Right. I kind 00:23:31.820 --> 00:23:36.900 of know. Right. Yeah. I put everything on GitHub. I was starting to get a big into GitHub, 00:23:37.040 --> 00:23:42.020 as much. I'm still afraid that I'm not going to be able to recover what, you know, 00:23:42.020 --> 00:23:46.320 two or three versions back. And so I don't have that much faith in it, but it was good to be able 00:23:46.320 --> 00:23:51.280 to have everything there. So you've moved on past the, I've made some progress on this project. 00:23:51.280 --> 00:23:53.940 Let me zip up the directory and give it like a version. 00:23:55.860 --> 00:23:57.940 Doug, you're laughing. Have you seen that as well? 00:23:57.940 --> 00:24:03.700 I knew GitHub was great before I knew how to use it. Yeah. So we were able to do that. And then I 00:24:03.700 --> 00:24:07.960 could just say, Hey, you know, I've, I've done the update and Doug could pull it down on his end and, 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:12.320 and run it and see what the error was or whatever it might be that way. So that was pretty cool. 00:24:12.320 --> 00:24:16.640 I always made sure that before I asked a question, I wasn't going to waste his time that I had 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:21.620 exhausted everything. So it wasn't a flippant. Oh, I'm stuck for five minutes. Go and do this. It was, 00:24:21.620 --> 00:24:25.780 you know, I'm really stuck here. So now I'm going to have to ask. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, 00:24:25.780 --> 00:24:30.020 I have some folks who periodically ask me questions, whatever. And when it's like that, I totally don't 00:24:30.020 --> 00:24:35.460 mind. It's fine. Right. The thing is, you know, sometimes you have people are just like, well, 00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:41.100 this isn't working. Why? And, you know, it's pretty obvious that like a little bit of take the 00:24:41.100 --> 00:24:45.800 error message, put it in Google would come up with a really good answer. you know, it's one of those 00:24:45.800 --> 00:24:51.200 types of things. And yeah, so that's really, I think an important part of trying to make something 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:57.580 like this work is if you're going to work with Doug and ask him questions and, you know, basically 00:24:57.580 --> 00:25:03.080 take some of his extra time and energy, cause he's got so much when he's not working on his book or his 00:25:03.080 --> 00:25:10.420 book articles or all the other stuff he's doing that it's really like, you know, that someone's put a 00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:13.840 lot of effort into it because then it's like, okay, well they really tried and they're really stuck and 00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:19.260 I can probably help them as opposed to just this person didn't even Google it. Like I really don't want to, 00:25:19.260 --> 00:25:25.860 you know, it really was a lot more. Yeah. Sometimes people will shoot me a message and I'll 00:25:25.860 --> 00:25:30.280 ask, could you help me with this? I'm really, it's like clearly not like from one of my courses or 00:25:30.280 --> 00:25:34.880 from an episode. It's just like random Python question. I'll take the question, put it in Google, 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:39.280 grab the link one and shoot it back and go, how about this? Oh my gosh, that totally fixed it. 00:25:39.380 --> 00:25:41.420 That's an incredible skill. 00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:41.900 Yeah. 00:25:41.900 --> 00:25:45.580 You need to let me Google that for you as a site. 00:25:45.580 --> 00:25:49.340 I know. Is it still a, is that still a thing? 00:25:49.360 --> 00:25:55.320 Yeah. It was mostly concepts that when I would get to, to ask, you know, that's, I needed to know 00:25:55.320 --> 00:26:01.340 how to go about something. And I had to be careful because Doug would actually just write me the 00:26:01.340 --> 00:26:06.060 program and send it back. And I would be like, oh my God, how long did this take? And it was like a 00:26:06.060 --> 00:26:12.160 complete, you know, Ajax program that updated your database for you. It wasn't exactly what I was doing. 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:16.820 So I would still have to create my own, but it was a working example of here. This is what it might 00:26:16.820 --> 00:26:21.820 look like that I could go into it and dissect it. I would have to be like, okay, I'm at work right 00:26:21.820 --> 00:26:26.540 now. I'm going to need three hours at home to like, look through all this that he's just sent me. And so 00:26:26.540 --> 00:26:27.580 it was pretty good that way. 00:26:27.580 --> 00:26:28.260 That's awesome. 00:26:28.260 --> 00:26:33.880 For me, that was the key with Russell was that he would always ask me, you know, I could see that he 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:38.280 had looked for stuff and well-researched and intelligent questions, which was great for me because I, 00:26:38.280 --> 00:26:42.060 you know, I don't have a lot of time to spend, but the other thing was, 00:26:42.140 --> 00:26:47.540 I often didn't give him complete solutions. I would do the left as an exercise for the reader 00:26:47.540 --> 00:26:54.640 kind of thing where I would give him a sample that I knew that he could extend and extrapolate 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.920 from in order to solve the bigger problems he was facing. 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:02.960 Right. Like here's a really, really simple proof of concept of like some Ajax thing or something, 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:03.240 right? 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:08.940 Yeah. Some of the things were just conceptual Python stuff, like, you know, moving away from 00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:12.120 everything as a dictionary. Dictionaries are extraordinarily powerful. 00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:17.320 but to get into object oriented stuff, it's kind of a hurdle, but it has a really great 00:27:17.320 --> 00:27:21.060 use. And I knew that I wanted to take him, you know, from, from dictionaries to object oriented 00:27:21.060 --> 00:27:26.460 and then onto SQLAlchemy, which of course is dependent on objects to get into databases. 00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:56.440 Yeah, absolutely. I think SQLAlchemy is really special and ORMs in general. I think they're very special because I remember when I was learning to talk to databases and you had to write SQL embedded in strings, embedded in your programming language. You're like, I just want to like get some data. Why do I have to learn a whole new programming language for this? And then, you know, you got to go and put stuff back in the database and like, how do you get the right types? And then obviously you can't string. 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:15.800 concatenate it. You got to figure out how to use parameters. There's just, there's all those layers of either best practices or just understanding or, you know, lazy loading or whatever. And with SQLAlchemy, you can kind of learn a skill that is also applicable in general Python, this object story. And databases are easy again. It's wonderful. 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:31.080 Yeah. I mean, I've been in, had both feet in the object oriented camp since C++, you know, 20 years ago. And I didn't really want to have to deal with tables of raw data from SQL. I wanted things to come to me in an object form because I want to think in terms of objects. 00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:42.580 Yeah. I mean, usually a real common pattern, if you weren't using an ORM would be to do a query and then load up an object with the data that you caught back and then give that back, give that over. Right. It's like, well, why am I doing this? 00:28:42.580 --> 00:28:48.520 Like from an object and once coming in and then trying to update the database and make, Oh, this is fun. 00:28:48.620 --> 00:29:18.080 Yeah, exactly. Couldn't we let a framework do this? Which, which is really nice. And it creates the tables for you and all that. So I guess I'll throw this out to either of you. I don't know which one wants to take it, but Rusty, you spoke about using Git and source control and how that was a little bit mysterious. Like you knew it would be good for you and you knew you should do it, but it was kind of something you didn't really know. So it was just another layer of something you have to deal with while you're trying to learn all these things. And finally you got there. So that worked out as a super way for collaborating, right? 00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:47.440 Yeah, it was fantastic. I was using it really to go from my work computer to my home computer. You know, if I had 10 minutes at work for lunch or 20 minutes, I would go ahead and, you know, it'd work on my program and then sync it, upload it and then get home and then pop it, keep going. So that was pretty cool that I could switch between computers. That was kind of my initial impetus for using it. And then when Doug actually asked to be a contributor one time, so he could do a pull request. Then I had to like do like two hours worth of research when that came back to figure out how to merge and things like that. 00:29:47.540 --> 00:29:50.140 I think I did it right because it worked afterwards, but 00:29:50.140 --> 00:29:51.860 Oh my gosh, there's a merge conflict. 00:29:51.860 --> 00:29:52.780 What are we going to do? 00:29:52.780 --> 00:30:15.320 Yeah. So that took some time, but you know, we, I figured that out and I use GitHub for all my, my projects now just to kind of keep it there. But yeah, that was a part of the learning curve as well. It was really cool. I was still the only time I've ever collaborated with someone on GitHub. I've, I'm actually to the point now where I'm, I'm asking questions of a plugin, not plugin, package authors on GitHub as well, which has been pretty cool. 00:30:15.320 --> 00:30:24.720 It's a really nice place to be able to go and have a conversation as well. Right. We've had source control for a long time, but the fact that it's got this kind of social component to it is really cool. 00:30:24.800 --> 00:30:25.200 Yeah. Yeah. 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:40.440 For me, it was great because, you know, Rusty and I had used a couple of ways to collaborate email, of course, and then we had done some screen captures and then screen capture movies and Skyping. And, some of that, you know, that was useful to me, but sometimes I was like, what is he talking about? 00:30:41.080 --> 00:30:53.480 I need to see this thing because I needed the context of, what it was running. And so having access to the whole code base through GitHub was really helpful for me for that context. And you know what the goal was that he was trying to achieve. 00:30:53.480 --> 00:31:06.240 Absolutely. I've certainly had people send me videos of like, here's what I'm trying to do this part. I'm stuck on, but when I click this, here's what's happens. And you know, that is actually really better than just a random email trying to describe it. 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.660 But it's not necessarily as good as being able to just poke around yourself. 00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:10.020 Yeah. 00:31:10.020 --> 00:31:25.680 I'll make a video in, you know, in 30 seconds that would take me, you know, 20 minutes to type. So I'm definitely much more and I'm more comfortable in front of the camera and I've been using it in teaching for a long time to, to make videos. So that was probably the most common way I would send issues. I would say. 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:42.160 That was great for me too, because I could think at length and, you know, I sort of could type my way to an answer within code instead of keeping rusty on the phone or trying to send another video back and forth. Cause some of those concepts are kind of abstract, like, you know, OO and things like that are a little abstract to try to talk about. 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:55.020 Yeah, definitely. A good written example is nice there. You know, I've used that screen recording trick for bug reports, you know, for like random software. Like, I know you say this is not a problem, but here I've recorded it. 00:31:55.780 --> 00:32:20.680 This button that says do X, it doesn't do X anymore. Can you just help me out here? And that's pretty effective as well, but it's not so much of a mentorship, I have a relationship as well. Now, one of your philosophies, Rusty, is that you're not keen to use code that you don't understand outside of say pip install a thing and just leverage that directly. So how'd that play into this whole interaction? 00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:48.500 Like I say, unless it's a package, I'm really not that comfortable. Like if, you know, if somebody were to give me, here's a bunch of code that does exactly what you want. Now I wasn't doing this for a job at the time. These were personal projects that I was trying to learn. And I really feel like if that happens and I try and debug it, I, and I don't understand what's going on. It's going to be really, really tough for me to use that in any kind of a meaningful way. And that's one of the things that Doug helped me understand was actually, I listened to his interview on your show. 00:32:48.500 --> 00:33:02.700 And he was saying that he doesn't understand why people don't use an editor that has a debugger in it. And now I wouldn't now, you know, if I was going to write something because it's just that important. And I didn't really understand how important it was being able to look inside the variables would be. 00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:23.880 So I just really want to understand it at its base level because I just feel it's going to be so much better going forward. So yeah, there's even some packages I wouldn't use that took over my Flask app in a way like the Flask users package is just this huge invasive thing. And I didn't really understand what I wanted to do. If I was building something that I was just going to build it for a month and then leave it or whatever, I might use it. 00:33:23.940 --> 00:33:30.240 But otherwise, I'd rather understand that whole process so I could use it later on or use that knowledge later on. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:34.140 Yeah, I totally agree. And that Flask example is pretty interesting because I feel the same way. 00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:47.520 Right. Like I put together a course on Flask and it doesn't have any of the extensions, right? It doesn't use Flask login or any of that stuff because I just want to talk about the primary thing and every one of those layers. 00:33:47.520 --> 00:34:00.180 While it saves you a few lines here, it adds layers of complexity and understanding along the way. If people want to go grab that later, that's fine, right? They can go use that. But sometimes you just want to just like, what is the essence of what I'm doing? Right? 00:34:00.520 --> 00:34:03.720 Yeah. What do you think? How's your philosophy around this, Doug? 00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:13.300 I do like to use packages, mostly because I work particularly. I just don't have the time to build everything myself. But I spend a lot of time vetting stuff that I want to use. 00:34:13.520 --> 00:34:26.000 For instance, we write a lot of REST APIs and I looked around a lot to find a tool that I thought worked for me, which is why I use this thing called connection rather than some of the Flask RESTful stuff. 00:34:26.220 --> 00:34:40.520 Because it just fit my style of work. It seems well supported. It has current updates and all that stuff. There are things that I do want to build myself because I have to have that much control. It depends on how much my OCD kicks in. 00:34:40.520 --> 00:34:43.720 If I build it myself or use a package. 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:58.040 Yeah, I think there's just so many trade-offs. And it's interesting to talk about because it's like, what's the right action? What's the right choice? You know, for example, like just take like Flask login or authentication or Flask users as an idea. 00:34:58.700 --> 00:35:18.340 On one hand, it's great to let that whole thing be someone else's problem. But as soon as it doesn't do what you need and you're like outside of its box, then all of a sudden you're jumping through all these hoops to try to understand how to juggle it plus what you're doing and so on. Right. And so it's just attention. I think people just got to get used to. 00:35:18.340 --> 00:35:32.520 When you download a good package like Flask users, it's great that a lot of that works for you with some hidden complexity. It's like a black box. But when you have to open the black box and try to do something with it, that can be a bit of a hassle. 00:35:32.520 --> 00:35:47.040 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by Linode. 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They're hiring. Go to linode.com slash careers to find out more. Let them know that we sent you. 00:36:35.140 --> 00:36:54.660 One of the things I think could be helpful from a mentor-mentee relationship is when you're new in writing code, and I kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, Rusty, when I asked you the question about going back to your other project, is a lot of times beginners, when they're working on something, they're like, if I can just get this to work, that's it. 00:36:54.660 --> 00:37:05.600 It's working now, right? But then there's the, oh, this is not very Pythonic, or did you know that Python has this language feature that makes those five lines be one, and it's real simple? 00:37:05.600 --> 00:37:10.360 Or even there's a standard library thing, like, why are you sorting this by hand? You know what I mean? Things like that. 00:37:10.520 --> 00:37:16.800 So maybe talk a little bit about, kind of helped him make his code more Pythonic, or make it a little more professional, or whatever. 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:28.660 Well, I guess one of the early things that I did, or I tried to do, is when we first started to work together on the Flask app that Rusty put together, I recall it being a single file. It was a single Python file. 00:37:29.680 --> 00:37:38.280 And for me, I got, you know, I looked at that, and I said, oh, this is, it's hard for me to keep all of what's happened, this giant file, in my mental model all at once. 00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:41.300 The cognitive load on me was just too much. 00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:59.660 One of the things I did, and I think in one of the pull requests, was to introduce the idea of modules, and how to break code up into logical modules, where, you know, this kind of stuff should live here, this kind of stuff should live here, because you could think about, that sort of separates the work, or what you're doing, into a domain, a little domain, where that's all it really does. 00:37:59.660 --> 00:38:06.180 And you can sort of depend upon that. It makes the amount of stuff you have to keep in your brain a little bit smaller and more manageable. 00:38:06.180 --> 00:38:12.600 And then, you know, the idea of how to, creating your own modules, how to import your own modules, rather than just the system modules. 00:38:12.600 --> 00:38:21.580 I think for me, that was a big step that we took forward into making the work that Rusty was doing more along the lines of a developer, rather than just a programmer. 00:38:21.580 --> 00:38:24.520 Yeah, yeah, I certainly agree with that. 00:38:24.520 --> 00:38:26.540 It was great. Blueprints was a big part of that. 00:38:26.540 --> 00:38:27.920 Blueprints are interesting. 00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:29.700 These are things in Flask. 00:38:29.700 --> 00:38:42.980 You know, Flask, through, I don't know if I would put this on the people who were, like, writing the early tutorials for Flask, or just other people who are passionate about Flask and written tutorials. 00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:48.820 But whatever the origin is, it feels like Flask a lot of times gets sold as, like, Flask is amazing. 00:38:48.820 --> 00:38:51.420 It's so simple, you just need this one file. 00:38:51.420 --> 00:38:52.780 Just put your stuff there. 00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:53.300 Go. 00:38:53.300 --> 00:38:54.460 You know what I mean? 00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:56.080 You can do that. 00:38:56.080 --> 00:38:56.140 You can do that. 00:38:56.140 --> 00:38:58.660 For the really simple example, it's fine. 00:38:58.660 --> 00:38:58.860 Yeah. 00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:00.160 When your website has 300 views. 00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:01.540 For the whole world on a browser, that's fine. 00:39:01.540 --> 00:39:02.740 Yeah. 00:39:02.740 --> 00:39:05.700 You have 300 views and 10 database classes. 00:39:05.700 --> 00:39:06.960 And yeah, it's crazy. 00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:12.420 What nobody could get through to me until Doug and I worked together was why you'd want Blueprints. 00:39:12.580 --> 00:39:16.620 You know, while we got to a point where, like, you needed to break it up into these different pieces. 00:39:16.620 --> 00:39:20.460 And he must have shown me Blueprints two or three times before it finally clicked with me. 00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:25.620 Because I'd watched YouTube videos of the Flask site itself, or the docs. 00:39:25.620 --> 00:39:25.820 Yeah. 00:39:25.820 --> 00:39:28.560 Assumes you already know exactly why you'd want to do them. 00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:29.260 And yeah. 00:39:29.260 --> 00:39:31.740 So I just didn't understand why I'd want to start to break it up. 00:39:31.740 --> 00:39:37.360 I mean, one of the great things about Python is that it's supposed to be written clearly instead of cleverly, I suppose. 00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:39.560 You know, overly clever, I should say, rather. 00:39:39.560 --> 00:39:45.640 So Blueprints allowed you to kind of break that up, just like you would break up, you know, a function into smaller pieces, which was awesome. 00:39:45.640 --> 00:39:47.120 But yeah, it took a long time. 00:39:47.120 --> 00:39:49.400 And then even then, it's not super well documented. 00:39:49.660 --> 00:39:53.500 So watching somebody, a pro who had done it before was instrumental. 00:39:53.500 --> 00:39:57.480 And it really, really opened my eyes to why you'd want to do that. 00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:58.600 But it took a lot. 00:39:58.600 --> 00:39:59.180 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:59.180 --> 00:40:00.340 It's definitely one of those things. 00:40:00.340 --> 00:40:01.600 It's hard to sell. 00:40:01.600 --> 00:40:02.720 Like, why do I need this? 00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:05.760 Because a lot of times when you're getting started, you have three views. 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.380 You're like, you're just making it complicated. 00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:09.680 Like, why are you putting all this stuff everywhere else? 00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:14.920 But when you have 300, all of a sudden, you know, having those categorized, like, here's the stuff about users. 00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:16.180 Here's the admin stuff. 00:40:16.180 --> 00:40:19.220 Here's the, I don't know, the blog stuff, whatever you're writing, right? 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:20.660 Like, it's massive. 00:40:20.660 --> 00:40:22.500 And it's kind of like you said, Doug. 00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:31.720 I think one of the things that's really important for people to, as they're getting into programming to learn, is that you can think at different levels of building blocks, right? 00:40:31.720 --> 00:40:34.240 You can think, you talked about this with modules as well. 00:40:34.240 --> 00:40:37.360 Like, you can think of line by line what's happening. 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:38.980 Or you can think of function by function. 00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:44.960 But if you use modules, you can sort of think, okay, that's the thing that I use for working with sending email. 00:40:45.340 --> 00:40:49.180 And I go to it and I say, send email, send debug message, send error. 00:40:49.180 --> 00:40:51.300 And that's, I don't care what, how that happens. 00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:52.740 I just ask it to do those three things. 00:40:52.740 --> 00:40:57.600 And so now you're just thinking at the, here's my email building blocks for the rest of my app. 00:40:57.600 --> 00:41:00.740 And so there's like these different conceptual layers that you go. 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:07.620 And I think that's kind of being productive is really about identifying the right level and thinking of those Lego pieces, right? 00:41:07.620 --> 00:41:08.160 Oh, yeah. 00:41:08.160 --> 00:41:10.680 I mean, you know, that whole, why would I want to do this? 00:41:10.680 --> 00:41:15.680 You know, you start out simple and you think, oh, this is, you know, I can get something running pretty quickly. 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:18.240 And then it starts to get more and more complex. 00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:20.180 And why would I want to do this? 00:41:20.180 --> 00:41:27.600 It's like, from my point of view, it's like, well, you know, you're already running into name conflicts with functions because you've got so many of them in one module. 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:31.500 And you're crossing over where you're sending email in 10 different places. 00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:35.160 And it's hard to, it's hard to think about, you know, all those things that are going on there. 00:41:35.160 --> 00:41:40.300 If you put it in a module or the namespace and even, you know, what a namespace is, is so useful. 00:41:40.300 --> 00:41:50.020 And what Rusty said about that, we were over this a few times, part of the benefit for me, besides just enjoying helping him, was for me to find the right way to phrase it. 00:41:50.020 --> 00:41:54.480 You know, how do I convey this information that would help him hit? 00:41:54.700 --> 00:41:58.340 Because it's not like I gave him perfect examples and he took off of it. 00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:07.740 What I was doing was trying to find a way to show him an example or say it in a way where Rusty arrived at that aha moment all by himself. 00:42:07.740 --> 00:42:11.800 And suddenly realized, oh, this is why I want to do that. 00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:17.160 And then he would pursue it because it's not just because I told him to, it's because he suddenly saw the value of it. 00:42:17.160 --> 00:42:23.660 I think half the time he spent just stripping out my imports and everything imported in every single file. 00:42:23.780 --> 00:42:26.180 And that's one of the things I learned as well. 00:42:26.180 --> 00:42:27.800 Just in case you need it. 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:34.580 I guess it's worth really quickly, just for folks who are out there who are using Flask, but they're like, wait, Flask Blueprints? 00:42:34.580 --> 00:42:36.300 Is this like an extra package or something? 00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:41.300 Flask Blueprints are awesome and I massively encourage people to use them. 00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:45.100 But Doug, maybe give us the quick elevator pitch on what those are. 00:42:45.100 --> 00:42:49.460 For me, Blueprints is a way to segregate functionality in the Flask app. 00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:59.580 So if you have a lot of URL endpoints, some of those are going to be related together like logins or these are the endpoints that I need to feed a page or provide a view. 00:43:00.120 --> 00:43:03.920 And you can have, you know, you have in a basic Flask app, you have one templates folder. 00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.880 And in that templates folder, you might have JavaScript and CSS and HTML. 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:14.180 But as you get more pages in an app, that starts to pile up and you start coming in with these weird names and stuff like that. 00:43:14.180 --> 00:43:17.240 And then across, they don't really logically go together. 00:43:17.240 --> 00:43:27.160 So Blueprints is a way to separate the URL endpoints, the API, I guess, into modules which exist in separate files. 00:43:27.160 --> 00:43:40.040 And now you have all of these modules that contain that functionality, which they have their own template files, their own static files, you know, all those other things that make up the functionality of that page. 00:43:40.040 --> 00:43:43.440 I usually try to break it up by page because that's always complex enough for me. 00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:50.220 You have all the functionality of that page in one place, which is super handy because you can think about it in one place to the other. 00:43:50.220 --> 00:43:51.840 And nothing else in there, right? 00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.580 And nothing else. 00:43:52.580 --> 00:44:09.340 The other great thing, I haven't done this too much, but the other great thing is you can actually take that module, that Blueprint module, and use it in a separate app just by picking up that, you know, copying that directory or that folder, the project, what do they call it, a package, to another Flask app. 00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:10.140 And it would work. 00:44:10.240 --> 00:44:14.680 In my project, I had the main part where you actually played your cards or whatever. 00:44:14.680 --> 00:44:16.320 And then I just made another Blueprint. 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:18.200 That was the member section. 00:44:18.200 --> 00:44:22.780 So then you'd check in, it'd pick up your deck, and then it'd shoot you over to that other module. 00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:26.660 And then there was a little point where it said, oh, if you're logged in, go back to here. 00:44:26.660 --> 00:44:27.520 Then you'd have to wait. 00:44:27.640 --> 00:44:31.060 And then when I wanted to build an admin section, that was a whole other Blueprint. 00:44:31.060 --> 00:44:31.600 Boom. 00:44:31.600 --> 00:44:33.900 Then I could work on that completely separate. 00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:34.180 Yeah. 00:44:34.180 --> 00:44:35.360 And so it's beautiful. 00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:46.420 So the reason I think it's less obvious in Flask and also, but still important, is Flask normally has you go app.route on all the view methods. 00:44:46.420 --> 00:44:49.620 And the place you create that route is in the main thing. 00:44:49.620 --> 00:44:53.820 So it's hard to share it to other files, which then have to be pre-imported. 00:44:53.820 --> 00:44:57.620 And it creates like this circular nightmare that you run into. 00:44:57.620 --> 00:44:59.240 And so it gets challenging. 00:44:59.240 --> 00:45:02.020 So people should, if they're not using them, they should definitely check into Blueprints. 00:45:02.020 --> 00:45:05.440 I use this idea even more extreme than that, maybe. 00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:10.140 So I've got separate modules for my related view methods, like say stuff about admin. 00:45:10.140 --> 00:45:15.240 And then there's functions in there that handle the views. 00:45:15.240 --> 00:45:18.200 And then I have my templates organized that way as well. 00:45:18.200 --> 00:45:20.880 So my template folders has maybe an admin subfolder. 00:45:21.040 --> 00:45:24.720 And then the names of the template files are the names of the functions. 00:45:24.720 --> 00:45:28.700 So there's like this kind of hierarchy of, I'm here, I know exactly where to go. 00:45:28.700 --> 00:45:30.860 There's not 500 templates in one file. 00:45:30.860 --> 00:45:40.520 And I also use this idea of view models, which is like classes that exchange and validate the data between the HTML request and the rest of your site. 00:45:40.520 --> 00:45:45.120 So like this data comes from the URL, this data comes from the form, this data comes from a header. 00:45:45.120 --> 00:45:47.240 Let's validate that and pass it on. 00:45:47.240 --> 00:45:49.120 And those also have the same structure, right? 00:45:49.120 --> 00:45:53.440 They're view models and then the module name and then the name that's associated. 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:55.700 So I really love this idea of organizing it. 00:45:55.700 --> 00:46:00.980 It just, it means like almost no matter how complex your project grows, you just follow. 00:46:00.980 --> 00:46:04.960 It's like a little tree traversal and you found what you need on all the different layers. 00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:05.420 I love it. 00:46:05.540 --> 00:46:08.560 I think that's a really valuable part of Blueprints. 00:46:08.560 --> 00:46:22.400 I think one of the things you're alluding to, one of the more difficult parts of using Blueprints as a, not being familiar with it, is that idea of the app, the app instance and how to, how to share that in the other, the other modules in the Blueprints. 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:23.580 Still working on that one. 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:24.120 Yeah. 00:46:24.120 --> 00:46:27.740 Cause you, you created in the, in the main Flask app and then how do you access it elsewhere? 00:46:27.740 --> 00:46:28.840 That's, that's hard. 00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:30.500 I tried and said, I couldn't. 00:46:30.500 --> 00:46:31.820 My dog crashed. 00:46:31.820 --> 00:46:32.240 It won't let me. 00:46:32.240 --> 00:46:33.820 You start breaking up your code like this. 00:46:33.820 --> 00:46:38.700 You need to do it before you understand why you reach a point past where you should have done it. 00:46:38.720 --> 00:46:41.320 And then you start to understand that maybe I needed to start doing that. 00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:45.400 So having somebody there to kind of help you along with that process was, it's pretty key. 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:45.760 Yeah. 00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:47.900 To kind of precipitate it and get it started. 00:46:47.900 --> 00:46:48.580 That's for sure. 00:46:48.580 --> 00:46:52.280 So what are some of the other tools you talked about using GitHub? 00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:55.020 You talked about recording, like sharing screen recordings. 00:46:55.020 --> 00:46:58.280 What are some of the other communication tooling that you used? 00:46:58.280 --> 00:46:59.660 Well, we just talked on the phone. 00:46:59.660 --> 00:47:00.720 Yep. 00:47:00.720 --> 00:47:03.500 It was harder to set up cause we're both busy folks. 00:47:03.500 --> 00:47:04.220 It's harder. 00:47:04.220 --> 00:47:07.260 It was harder to get the actual conversations, but it was great. 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:14.040 So I would say every couple of weeks we'd chat on the phone and then we actually set up a video conference once as well, which was good. 00:47:14.040 --> 00:47:16.500 That was, that took a lot of doing to make sure we were both at a place. 00:47:16.500 --> 00:47:19.140 Cause you know, you can't do that necessarily quickly at work or whatever. 00:47:19.140 --> 00:47:19.920 Yeah. 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:20.680 That can be challenging. 00:47:20.680 --> 00:47:23.560 It's also fortunate that the Rusty and I are both on the East coast. 00:47:23.560 --> 00:47:29.280 So there's no time zone issue for that video conferencing or trying to share a Skype call or something. 00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:30.380 Yeah. 00:47:30.380 --> 00:47:36.840 I do think that the tooling is around to make this much more possible for distributed folks. 00:47:36.940 --> 00:47:41.160 It's not like, well, I've got to find somebody in my town to help, which that may be great. 00:47:41.160 --> 00:47:41.460 Right. 00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:42.720 It may be great to find someone locally. 00:47:42.720 --> 00:47:47.540 Cause then you could just, Hey, every Wednesday, let's get lunch together and I'll bring our laptops or something like that. 00:47:47.540 --> 00:47:52.600 But you know, that limits the options of who you can work with pretty dramatically. 00:47:52.600 --> 00:47:54.660 If you restrict it to your town versus the world. 00:47:54.660 --> 00:48:07.860 Well, one of the other things that I tried to do, which I think is important for me as a mentor is that I try to be responsive to Rusty, that he sends me a question or he's updated his, the Git repository and asked me something about it. 00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:12.280 Is that I try to look at it pretty quickly because one, I want to help him. 00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:16.600 But two, I don't want to fall behind where he's, he's moved on because he hasn't heard from me. 00:48:16.600 --> 00:48:18.960 And, you know, suddenly my assistance is irrelevant. 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:20.220 Right. 00:48:20.220 --> 00:48:20.500 Right. 00:48:20.500 --> 00:48:20.800 Right. 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:22.800 You've already gone so far to help him out. 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:23.940 You gotta, gotta keep going. 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:37.100 Doug, how did you work with the, I guess there's probably this tension around, am I just doing the work for him versus teaching him, you know, give him a fish versus teaching him to fish? 00:48:37.100 --> 00:48:39.200 Yeah. 00:48:39.200 --> 00:48:52.960 Well, I think about that a lot because I teach at a STEM place where, with kids, you know, that range from age from eight to 16 and, they'd be happy to have me give them all the fish I have rather than figure it out themselves. 00:48:53.140 --> 00:48:54.640 So I'm onto that trick. 00:48:54.640 --> 00:48:59.460 Not that Rusty does that, but, oftentimes I guess one of the, I guess I do two things. 00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:09.660 I don't try to solve the entire problem for me and I'll give him a working example, but it's really a prototype that he's going to have to extrapolate from in order to do everything that he intends to do. 00:49:09.940 --> 00:49:20.280 And then the other thing I try to do is I really try to listen more than talk because I've found, I'm sure both of you have seen this, over time, over time. 00:49:20.700 --> 00:49:27.780 Listening more gives the person a chance to put their thoughts into words in a way that they're trying to explain it to them. 00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:28.900 They just keep nodding. 00:49:28.900 --> 00:49:34.360 Some, but quite often they come to the solution themselves by the act of expressing it. 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:34.720 Yeah. 00:49:34.720 --> 00:49:40.540 You've kind of shaken up their thought patterns and got them to focus from a different perspective, right? 00:49:40.540 --> 00:49:42.140 To try to verbalize it and whatnot. 00:49:42.140 --> 00:49:42.580 Yeah. 00:49:42.580 --> 00:49:43.500 Silence is powerful. 00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:44.000 Yeah. 00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:47.020 Plus I know that, you know, I can tend to ramble on and on myself. 00:49:47.020 --> 00:49:51.780 So I want to give, I want to give him an opportunity to tell me what he's really trying to do. 00:49:51.780 --> 00:49:56.840 Well, that was a great story you told me, Doug, but that's not what I was asking. 00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:00.000 That's a real possibility. 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.040 Yeah. 00:50:01.040 --> 00:50:01.440 Yeah. 00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:02.160 Well, for me too. 00:50:02.160 --> 00:50:06.080 So this sounds like this has been working out really well for you guys. 00:50:06.080 --> 00:50:12.560 And certainly I think it's great, Rusty, that you've got this job where it sounds just looking in from the outside. 00:50:12.560 --> 00:50:23.120 It sounds to me like you've leveled up a little bit in terms of what you're doing with Python and with code and the impact that you're able to have doing more analysis of what's going on and so on. 00:50:23.120 --> 00:50:26.180 And I'm sure this, this hasn't hurt that process at all. 00:50:26.180 --> 00:50:28.720 So it sounds like it's going really well. 00:50:28.720 --> 00:50:41.120 And I guess maybe the last thing I'd like to explore while we're together is just, you know, how do we help other people make these connections and help each other out and, you know, get, get benefits on both sides. 00:50:41.120 --> 00:50:42.200 It's a tough one. 00:50:42.200 --> 00:50:50.200 And I think before I actually connected with you to talk about, you know, kind of learning Python by myself, I'd gone to a couple of meetups in Burlington. 00:50:50.200 --> 00:50:55.120 And, you know, for me, it's an hour drive down there, an hour drive home and, and stuff. 00:50:55.120 --> 00:50:59.800 And I ended up there and everybody there is like working at a startup and, you know, is, is pretty savvy. 00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:02.320 And we had this like presentation. 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:03.180 We're doing this with Dockers. 00:51:03.180 --> 00:51:05.020 And here's the thing about Kubernetes cluster. 00:51:05.020 --> 00:51:06.460 You're like, what is a loop? 00:51:07.040 --> 00:51:15.020 It was a lot of people who knew each other, you know, from different projects and stuff, you know, it was kind of a, an old boys club kind of thing or young boys club, I guess. 00:51:15.680 --> 00:51:22.680 And I, we had a presentation one night when I was there, there's a bunch of different organizations came out and said what they were doing with code in the area. 00:51:22.680 --> 00:51:32.160 And I would actually, I was thinking to myself, well, I'm just going to, next time there's one of these things, I'm going to show up with a slideshow and say, Hey, I want to try and bring, you know, coding to Franklin County as a teacher. 00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:36.020 And if I could have a mentor, I think I could get to the point where I could do that kind of thing. 00:51:36.020 --> 00:51:46.100 So I was not necessarily that desperate, but I was like, that was like my next big plan because I didn't really have anything else up my sleeve, you know, to try and make connections as far as that goes. 00:51:46.100 --> 00:51:46.680 It is tricky. 00:51:46.680 --> 00:51:49.160 I do think these meetups are very valuable. 00:51:49.160 --> 00:51:56.660 People are pretty humble or they're not really, you know, they, even though I'm sure people are doing stuff that sounds intimidating. 00:51:56.660 --> 00:52:05.240 I don't find very many people are condescending, I guess is what I was looking for is like, they're pretty welcoming of newcomers, especially in the Python meetups. 00:52:05.240 --> 00:52:10.400 And so I do think coming out to these are, you can really make some good connections at them. 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:10.660 Yep. 00:52:10.660 --> 00:52:15.940 This was a general, like, I don't think there is, there is a Python group there, but it never has a meetup. 00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:17.180 So it was just kind of a general code. 00:52:17.180 --> 00:52:23.960 But it was a, you know, it was a comfortable atmosphere, but I wasn't necessarily going to walk out, you know, with the kind of connections that I was looking for. 00:52:23.960 --> 00:52:24.700 I don't know. 00:52:24.700 --> 00:52:30.240 I think I just kind of got lucky to get connected with Doug. 00:52:30.240 --> 00:52:32.960 So yeah, I don't know that I have any help. 00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:33.200 Yeah. 00:52:33.200 --> 00:52:34.740 It's funny how life takes these turns, right? 00:52:34.740 --> 00:52:35.080 Yeah. 00:52:35.080 --> 00:52:37.600 Doug, what do you think about finding mentors? 00:52:37.600 --> 00:52:40.480 Well, I think for me is, it's interesting. 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:46.500 You know, I approached, I approached Rusty because there were some things that I wanted to help him with, but there's also some things I wanted to help me with. 00:52:46.500 --> 00:52:49.300 And so it's kind of a two way street about the mentoring. 00:52:49.300 --> 00:52:54.560 But I think part of it is just asking someone to do so is probably a big thing. 00:52:54.620 --> 00:53:00.560 I go to a Python meetup in Hartford, Connecticut, and I've given presentations there and I've met a lot of people. 00:53:00.560 --> 00:53:06.120 And some people, you know, have gotten in touch with me afterwards and, you know, enjoyed the presentation or whatever. 00:53:06.120 --> 00:53:08.420 But very few of them have asked me for help. 00:53:08.420 --> 00:53:12.020 And at the meetup, it was clear to me that they were really looking for help. 00:53:12.080 --> 00:53:14.640 And I thought, just ask me, you know, why not? 00:53:14.640 --> 00:53:15.440 Yeah. 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:15.720 Yeah. 00:53:15.720 --> 00:53:18.320 Just, you know, the worst that could happen if somebody says no. 00:53:18.460 --> 00:53:21.080 I don't know how prevalent this is. 00:53:21.080 --> 00:53:31.720 And I honestly haven't been to it here in Portland, but at least in Portland, one of the Python meetups here has like a weekly, I'm sorry, not weekly, a monthly project night or something. 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:36.300 Where you just come with whatever project you're working on and you could just talk to other people. 00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:40.140 And either they have a project or they're just there to give advice or whatever. 00:53:40.520 --> 00:53:44.220 And that seems like a really great thing to set up if it doesn't exist near you. 00:53:44.220 --> 00:53:47.800 I suggested that to the guy who runs the Hartford meetup that I've gone to. 00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:52.720 You know, they usually have two presentations a night and then he's had hackathon kind of things. 00:53:52.720 --> 00:53:54.100 But they're sort of free form. 00:53:54.100 --> 00:54:02.900 And I suggested to him that they might do exactly what you suggested is a tutorial night where people, somebody comes and they focus on a thing. 00:54:02.900 --> 00:54:06.840 And they work on that thing to try to kind of like a class, I guess. 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:07.680 Yeah. 00:54:07.680 --> 00:54:07.840 Yeah. 00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:12.180 Like we'll do a hands-on workshop on SQLAlchemy or something like that. 00:54:12.180 --> 00:54:13.060 Yeah, exactly. 00:54:13.060 --> 00:54:13.400 Yeah. 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:34.740 You know, another thing I'll throw out there, it doesn't work for super, super beginner, but it does work, I think, for even intermediate, like advanced beginner, I guess I would call it, is one of the things that really changed the interaction and trajectory for me was when I started doing presentations at my local meetup. 00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:35.240 Yeah. 00:54:35.240 --> 00:54:35.920 And at CodeCamps. 00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:40.400 Because other people who were really bright and really experienced, like, oh, that was really interesting. 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:44.140 I didn't know that thing, but they knew other stuff that I definitely needed help with, right? 00:54:44.140 --> 00:54:48.740 And so I had dove into some small area and wanted to present on it. 00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:58.940 And that got me sort of connections, not exactly like a mentorship, but like a peer group that I could then start talking to them about these other things that I needed. 00:54:58.940 --> 00:55:01.680 And that actually really made a huge difference. 00:55:01.680 --> 00:55:05.640 And I know a lot of these meetups, they're looking for people to present. 00:55:05.640 --> 00:55:07.480 And you don't have to be an expert in everything. 00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:14.200 If you just know one thing you can spend 15 minutes on, there's a good chance you could talk about it and get connections you would otherwise wouldn't. 00:55:14.200 --> 00:55:14.920 Oh, absolutely. 00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:23.940 I mean, I got started writing articles to publish because I was doing presentations at works at our various engineering all hands at work. 00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:28.540 And people responded well to these presentations about various things in Python. 00:55:28.540 --> 00:55:31.420 And I got the idea to turn them into some articles. 00:55:31.420 --> 00:55:35.160 And I've been working with Dan Bader at RealPython. 00:55:35.160 --> 00:55:36.700 And they've been very popular. 00:55:36.700 --> 00:55:38.440 So that's what got me into that. 00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:43.440 I think the short form, I think, is probably the key there to getting people up to present. 00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:52.820 If you only had 10 minutes or 15 minutes to say something, that's a lot less intimidating than if you were going to give a half hour, 45-minute presentation and then take questions. 00:55:53.600 --> 00:55:57.900 If you could, you know, everybody stand up and do like a lightning, you know, here's 10 or 15 minutes. 00:55:57.900 --> 00:55:58.720 A lightning talk, yeah. 00:55:58.720 --> 00:56:00.320 Yeah, absolutely. 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:01.560 I think that would be huge. 00:56:01.560 --> 00:56:02.420 I don't know. 00:56:02.420 --> 00:56:06.980 I guess part of it is, look, if you're looking for a mentor, you've got to take a few steps to get out there, right? 00:56:06.980 --> 00:56:14.560 Certainly sitting behind your computer at home and not talking to anyone is not going to get anyone to help you because they don't even know that you're out there. 00:56:14.560 --> 00:56:18.700 But also, you know, it's also a bit of a give and take, right? 00:56:18.700 --> 00:56:22.340 Like you said, you both helped each other with various things and whatnot. 00:56:22.620 --> 00:56:29.480 I guess the one other thing to maybe mention is there are people who help with speaking in the Python space. 00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:37.400 Like if you apply to PyCon, you can get a mentor that will help you craft your application and craft your presentation. 00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:42.240 Basically, whatever it is you're going to present, they'll give you feedback and advice on that. 00:56:42.240 --> 00:56:44.720 I guess the danger is that they accept it. 00:56:44.720 --> 00:56:47.000 Yeah, then you're committed. 00:56:48.200 --> 00:56:49.760 Oh, we've chosen you for the keynote. 00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:50.460 Oh, super. 00:56:50.460 --> 00:56:51.320 Oh, my God. 00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:52.380 This is going to make me sweat. 00:56:52.380 --> 00:56:56.980 But yeah, it's still, I think, I do think there's ways out there. 00:56:56.980 --> 00:56:58.580 I mean, obviously, there's communities. 00:56:58.580 --> 00:57:01.560 You can join like different Slack communities and whatnot. 00:57:02.020 --> 00:57:03.720 There's codementor.io. 00:57:03.720 --> 00:57:05.080 Never use them. 00:57:05.080 --> 00:57:06.900 Not a recommendation or endorsement. 00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:08.440 I just know they're out there and you can. 00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:11.280 I think it might even be a paid relationship. 00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:13.500 But if you're like, I really need somebody to help me with this project. 00:57:13.500 --> 00:57:17.220 And if I spent a month or two, maybe, you know, with one-on-one help, it might help. 00:57:17.220 --> 00:57:19.840 So, you know, that's another thing that you could do. 00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:21.620 I don't know if anyone has experience with that. 00:57:21.620 --> 00:57:22.080 Yeah. 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:27.460 I went to, this is a long time ago now, but I went to Toastmasters near me for a while 00:57:27.460 --> 00:57:31.520 to help with public speaking, which is not necessarily, it's certainly not code oriented, 00:57:31.520 --> 00:57:35.080 but it helped me a lot to improve my public speaking. 00:57:35.080 --> 00:57:37.100 I wish a lot of people who I work with would go. 00:57:37.100 --> 00:57:39.440 Sure. 00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:40.640 Well, I hear you. 00:57:40.640 --> 00:57:44.960 And I was going to say that one of the really important things that you can learn that is 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:51.080 not taught in any sort of computer programming background is this public speaking, putting 00:57:51.080 --> 00:57:51.900 yourself out there. 00:57:51.900 --> 00:57:52.660 Yeah. 00:57:52.660 --> 00:57:55.700 It really makes a big difference on a lot of different levels. 00:57:55.700 --> 00:58:00.920 And so, whether it's Toastmasters or it's more like organic, hey, I started giving talks 00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:06.100 at my local meetup and then at, you know, small local PyCons or whatever, like I highly encourage 00:58:06.100 --> 00:58:06.240 it. 00:58:06.240 --> 00:58:07.540 It's a rare skill. 00:58:07.540 --> 00:58:09.920 And if you have it, it'll put you in a different place. 00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:12.940 Oh, I really think it helps your career to be able to do that. 00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:16.740 I've been telling my own kids that for a long time, dealing with kids, you know, in public 00:58:16.740 --> 00:58:20.100 schools and things like that, that if they can just communicate and get their information 00:58:20.100 --> 00:58:23.200 out there and they don't mind putting themselves out there a little bit, that's going to be, 00:58:23.200 --> 00:58:24.360 that's going to be like Python. 00:58:24.360 --> 00:58:25.980 It's going to be like your superpower at work. 00:58:25.980 --> 00:58:30.080 You can actually communicate it because, you know, these kids have their heads in their phones 00:58:30.080 --> 00:58:33.660 and, you know, I'm not saying that's horrible, but there's not a lot of my own children are 00:58:33.660 --> 00:58:34.960 scared to call people on the phone. 00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:35.620 You know, it's. 00:58:35.620 --> 00:58:35.840 Yeah. 00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:36.100 Yeah. 00:58:36.100 --> 00:58:36.340 Yeah. 00:58:36.340 --> 00:58:39.940 I know like my daughters are not huge fans of talking on the phone either. 00:58:39.940 --> 00:58:40.480 Yeah. 00:58:40.560 --> 00:58:45.380 I think they mostly hate the numbering system dial 472 for this system or whatever. 00:58:45.380 --> 00:58:45.620 Right. 00:58:45.620 --> 00:58:46.500 So I understand it. 00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:50.800 Like they don't want to wait there for 20 minutes, but yeah, I do think that this is a 00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:54.200 skill that is going to be more special, not less. 00:58:54.200 --> 00:58:55.920 It's not like everyone's now a good speaker. 00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:59.360 When I was a kid, no one was, but now everyone's so good at public. 00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:00.380 Like, no, that's not true. 00:59:00.380 --> 00:59:00.660 Right. 00:59:00.660 --> 00:59:01.940 It's certainly not. 00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:04.500 So I think it's really a great thing as well. 00:59:04.500 --> 00:59:09.260 I mean, it's not directly related to being a mentor in a technical space, but I do think 00:59:09.260 --> 00:59:12.180 having that, you know, I think it helps you with other places. 00:59:12.180 --> 00:59:14.420 Like I talked about like presenting the meetups and whatnot. 00:59:14.420 --> 00:59:14.800 Sure. 00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:15.180 Yeah. 00:59:15.180 --> 00:59:19.480 Which gives you an opportunity to meet other people who you could either ask to be a mentor 00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:20.360 or be a mentor to. 00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:21.160 Yeah, absolutely. 00:59:21.160 --> 00:59:21.760 Yeah. 00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:22.460 That's very cool. 00:59:22.460 --> 00:59:23.100 All right. 00:59:23.100 --> 00:59:27.040 Well, you guys, this is a really interesting story and I appreciate you coming on here to 00:59:27.040 --> 00:59:27.480 share it. 00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:27.960 Glad to. 00:59:27.960 --> 00:59:28.540 Excellent. 00:59:28.540 --> 00:59:28.860 Yeah. 00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:33.760 And Doug, I do want to ask you really quickly before we move on to the last two questions. 00:59:33.760 --> 00:59:34.840 Just really quick. 00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:35.840 You talked about your book. 00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:36.680 When's it going to be out? 00:59:36.680 --> 00:59:41.080 Well, it won't be out probably till 2021 because it's, I've only gotten four chapters written 00:59:41.080 --> 00:59:43.900 and I've got 16 total to do. 00:59:43.900 --> 00:59:49.480 So I got a while to go, but I'm supposed to be producing one chapter a month for the Manning's 00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:50.440 early release program. 00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:52.400 So I'll be chugging away. 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:52.840 That's cool. 00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:54.740 Well, keep slow and steady. 00:59:54.740 --> 00:59:55.400 All right. 00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:56.060 That's the way to do it. 00:59:56.060 --> 00:59:57.180 That's, it's cool though. 00:59:57.180 --> 00:59:57.860 I'm looking forward to it. 00:59:57.860 --> 00:59:58.300 It sounds great. 00:59:58.300 --> 00:59:58.540 Yeah. 00:59:58.540 --> 00:59:58.960 Thank you. 00:59:59.100 --> 00:59:59.360 All right. 00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:02.460 Now, before you all get out here, the last two questions. 01:00:02.460 --> 01:00:06.840 So when you write some Python code, I'll go with you, Doug, first. 01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:07.960 What editor do you use? 01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:14.940 I primarily use PyCharm, which I really like, but I'm getting up to speed on Visual Studio 01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:19.240 code because that's what I recommend in the book because it's freely available and it's 01:00:19.240 --> 01:00:19.880 a great tool. 01:00:19.880 --> 01:00:20.180 Yeah. 01:00:20.180 --> 01:00:21.080 Those are both really good. 01:00:21.080 --> 01:00:25.940 Obviously, I'm a huge fan of PyCharm, but basically I use VS Code for anything that's not 01:00:25.940 --> 01:00:27.820 a Python project as well. 01:00:27.820 --> 01:00:29.900 So yeah, it's definitely a good one. 01:00:29.900 --> 01:00:30.800 Rusty, how about you? 01:00:30.800 --> 01:00:35.060 I prefer Adam if I'm going to do something that's a one-off or if I'm going to be working 01:00:35.060 --> 01:00:36.340 in multiple languages. 01:00:36.340 --> 01:00:40.120 Jupyter Notebooks has been really big for me this year as well. 01:00:40.120 --> 01:00:43.180 And if it's a big project, I do PyCharm. 01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:47.000 But like I say, I'm in a relationship with PyCharm, but willing to try new things. 01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:50.000 I've really lost all of my love for it. 01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:55.340 My PyCharm stopped telling me when my functions are used or it stops telling me if I need an 01:00:55.340 --> 01:00:56.460 import and things like that. 01:00:56.460 --> 01:00:57.760 And I can't figure out how to fix it. 01:00:57.760 --> 01:00:58.540 So yeah. 01:00:58.540 --> 01:00:59.500 Oh, that's not good. 01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:04.580 There is a way in the settings that you can go in and tell it to clear its cache. 01:01:04.580 --> 01:01:06.260 I've done it all. 01:01:06.260 --> 01:01:06.520 Okay. 01:01:06.520 --> 01:01:11.740 Well, what a bummer. 01:01:11.740 --> 01:01:12.520 Yeah. 01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:13.640 All right. 01:01:13.640 --> 01:01:13.900 Cool. 01:01:13.900 --> 01:01:14.880 Well, yeah. 01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:16.140 So Adam, that's cool. 01:01:16.140 --> 01:01:20.100 That's like the grandfather of VS Code in a sense, I guess. 01:01:20.100 --> 01:01:22.080 That's where Electron came from, right? 01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:23.080 I really like it. 01:01:23.080 --> 01:01:25.960 It's really, really, really customizable and really fun. 01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:31.060 And until I really enjoyed it until Doug convinced me that I needed a debugger and there's no good 01:01:31.060 --> 01:01:32.000 debugger built in. 01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:33.580 So yeah, I had to switch. 01:01:33.580 --> 01:01:37.320 I couldn't let him go down the path of being one of those Vim guys who just loads his code 01:01:37.320 --> 01:01:38.080 with a print statement. 01:01:38.080 --> 01:01:41.240 Nice. 01:01:41.240 --> 01:01:42.760 Nice, nice. 01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:46.060 And while we're talking about this, it's not either of your answers, but let me just 01:01:46.060 --> 01:01:47.640 throw it out because it's pretty interesting. 01:01:47.640 --> 01:01:52.380 So Rusty, you bring up Jupyter Notebooks, which is super common in the data world. 01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:57.000 Have either of you all heard about Carnets, C-A-R-N-E-T-S? 01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:57.380 No. 01:01:57.380 --> 01:02:04.580 So Carnets is an open source, free, local Jupyter Notebook platform for iOS. 01:02:04.580 --> 01:02:05.080 Wow. 01:02:05.080 --> 01:02:10.040 So yeah, it comes with like NumPy, SciPy, Matplotlib, all that. 01:02:10.100 --> 01:02:14.460 And it runs like on the device, not just a browser talking to something. 01:02:14.460 --> 01:02:16.000 So it works with no internet and stuff like that. 01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:20.200 Anyway, who knows how long it'll be until someone says that's their answer, but it's still a pretty 01:02:20.200 --> 01:02:22.240 cool little option to help people about. 01:02:22.240 --> 01:02:22.920 That's cool. 01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:24.240 Yeah, for sure. 01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.400 And then notable PyPI packages. 01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:27.520 Doug, you want to go first? 01:02:27.520 --> 01:02:29.000 Well, I have two kind of. 01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:30.800 One is not a PyPI package. 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:36.880 I've been using P-Y-E-N-V to run multiple Python versions, which I find fantastic. 01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:38.160 Very handy. 01:02:38.160 --> 01:02:41.420 I was just thinking this morning, like I should probably start playing with that more because 01:02:41.420 --> 01:02:45.820 it was nice to say this one is a 3.6 one and this one is a 3.8 one. 01:02:45.820 --> 01:02:46.280 Yeah. 01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:46.720 Right? 01:02:46.720 --> 01:02:51.420 And with the book, I've had to update my Python version for the book twice already. 01:02:51.420 --> 01:02:55.320 It's probably going to happen two more times. 01:02:55.320 --> 01:02:55.920 Yeah, right. 01:02:55.920 --> 01:02:56.440 Exactly. 01:02:56.980 --> 01:03:00.480 And then the other one that I like, I just discovered this a couple of days ago is this 01:03:00.480 --> 01:03:02.500 thing called JustPY, all one word. 01:03:02.500 --> 01:03:08.920 It's an object-oriented web framework, but everything is done in Python, including the rich JavaScript 01:03:08.920 --> 01:03:13.120 web application, which uses Vue, but is embedded in the Python. 01:03:13.120 --> 01:03:15.440 Yeah, this is really interesting over at JustPY.io. 01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:16.720 I just learned about it as well. 01:03:16.720 --> 01:03:19.980 And it's like, yeah, it's a pretty cool little framework for sure. 01:03:19.980 --> 01:03:20.720 Cool. 01:03:20.720 --> 01:03:21.260 All right. 01:03:21.260 --> 01:03:22.880 Well, that's a good recommendation as well. 01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:25.280 I have no idea if you can pay up and install it, but it's definitely cool. 01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:26.280 Rusty, how about you? 01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:26.920 Package? 01:03:27.220 --> 01:03:28.120 I'm going to go with pandas. 01:03:28.120 --> 01:03:34.220 I've been cleaning data for 2,000 students for about six months, and it's been amazing. 01:03:34.220 --> 01:03:38.720 And I never really knew why I'd want it before, but yeah, it's been a lot of fun to use, actually. 01:03:38.720 --> 01:03:39.600 Yeah. 01:03:39.600 --> 01:03:41.840 I wish it looked like the rest of Python, but... 01:03:41.840 --> 01:03:43.440 It's its own special thing. 01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:43.900 Yes. 01:03:43.900 --> 01:03:45.920 So that's cool. 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:52.480 And something I just learned about recently is through Brian Okken, who I think learned 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:56.580 about it through another one of our Python Bytes listeners, is detail. 01:03:56.580 --> 01:03:59.880 details, but D-T-A-L-E. 01:03:59.880 --> 01:04:04.880 I don't know if you guys are familiar with that, but it's a cool framework that lets you 01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:06.900 visualize Panda data frame. 01:04:06.900 --> 01:04:11.480 So if you click on the link, you can click on, there's like a little interactive demo tutorial 01:04:11.480 --> 01:04:13.160 thing you can check out somewhere. 01:04:13.160 --> 01:04:15.060 There's a live demo right at the top. 01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:21.840 But it's like, think a super reactive Excel hype thing that you just point at your data 01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:25.760 frame and it just comes to life and you can even see like example data. 01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:26.160 Wow, that's cool. 01:04:26.160 --> 01:04:27.480 Yeah, it's super cool. 01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:32.340 So anyway, if people are taking your advice and using pandas, they might also want to check 01:04:32.340 --> 01:04:32.640 that out. 01:04:32.640 --> 01:04:34.100 It's a pretty cool little visualizer. 01:04:34.100 --> 01:04:34.660 Excellent. 01:04:34.660 --> 01:04:35.020 Yep. 01:04:35.180 --> 01:04:35.580 All right. 01:04:35.580 --> 01:04:37.160 So final call to action. 01:04:37.160 --> 01:04:38.060 People are out there. 01:04:38.060 --> 01:04:43.120 Either side of this relationship that they're looking to set up to work together, what do 01:04:43.120 --> 01:04:43.360 they do? 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:45.080 Well, just reach out and make themselves public. 01:04:45.080 --> 01:04:46.460 Put yourself out there. 01:04:46.460 --> 01:04:50.980 And yeah, just got to take the chance and maybe somebody will take you up on it. 01:04:50.980 --> 01:04:51.660 On both sides. 01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:57.980 I reached out to Rusty to think that I could help him out and he was willing to let me 01:04:57.980 --> 01:05:00.660 do so, which was very great of him. 01:05:00.660 --> 01:05:02.020 That's awesome. 01:05:02.020 --> 01:05:03.640 Yeah, I'm sure he didn't see it that way. 01:05:03.640 --> 01:05:04.140 That's awesome. 01:05:04.140 --> 01:05:07.840 I could have had no information at all on the national offering to help him. 01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:11.320 This crazy guy that has no idea about programming. 01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:12.760 Let's talk about the program on the internet. 01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:16.420 No, obviously he knew you were on the show and stuff, right? 01:05:16.420 --> 01:05:17.240 So very cool. 01:05:17.240 --> 01:05:18.820 Great. 01:05:18.820 --> 01:05:19.760 I think that's good advice. 01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:21.860 And I do think that that is what it takes, right? 01:05:21.860 --> 01:05:25.500 No one is going to be willing to help you if you don't get out in the community, make 01:05:25.500 --> 01:05:27.540 some connections and take some steps, right? 01:05:27.540 --> 01:05:32.700 Like if there is someone showing effort to make progress, you're way more willing to put 01:05:32.700 --> 01:05:36.340 in a little effort to help them rather than someone just like, you know, looking to get 01:05:36.340 --> 01:05:37.960 someone to figure stuff out for them. 01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:38.760 Yeah, absolutely. 01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:39.320 Awesome. 01:05:39.320 --> 01:05:39.720 All right. 01:05:39.720 --> 01:05:43.180 Well, this is really interesting peek inside what you guys have been up to and I'm sure it'll 01:05:43.180 --> 01:05:44.880 help some folks along the way. 01:05:44.880 --> 01:05:45.560 I hope so too. 01:05:45.560 --> 01:05:45.940 Yep. 01:05:45.940 --> 01:05:46.640 Thanks for being on the show. 01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:47.460 Thank you very much. 01:05:47.460 --> 01:05:47.980 Thanks, Michael. 01:05:47.980 --> 01:05:48.620 Thanks, Rusty. 01:05:48.620 --> 01:05:48.840 Yep. 01:05:48.840 --> 01:05:49.200 Bye guys. 01:05:49.200 --> 01:06:19.180 Bye guys. 01:06:19.180 --> 01:06:21.980 you'll automatically get a $20 credit when you create a new account. 01:06:21.980 --> 01:06:23.780 Want to level up your Python? 01:06:23.780 --> 01:06:28.620 If you're just getting started, try my Python Jumpstart by Building 10 Apps course. 01:06:28.620 --> 01:06:30.900 Or if you're looking for something more advanced, 01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:34.980 check out our new Async course that digs into all the different types of 01:06:34.980 --> 01:06:36.780 async programming you can do in Python. 01:06:36.780 --> 01:06:39.580 And of course, if you're interested in more than one of these, 01:06:39.580 --> 01:06:41.440 be sure to check out our Everything Bundle. 01:06:41.440 --> 01:06:43.340 It's like a subscription that never expires. 01:06:43.340 --> 01:06:45.480 Be sure to subscribe to the show. 01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:47.980 Open your favorite podcatcher and search for Python. 01:06:47.980 --> 01:06:49.120 We should be right at the top. 01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:52.020 You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, 01:06:52.020 --> 01:06:53.940 the Google Play feed at /play, 01:06:53.940 --> 01:06:58.100 and the direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm. 01:06:58.100 --> 01:07:00.180 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 01:07:00.180 --> 01:07:01.680 Thanks so much for listening. 01:07:01.680 --> 01:07:02.720 I really appreciate it. 01:07:02.720 --> 01:07:04.480 Now get out there and write some Python code. 01:07:18.080 --> 01:07:25.460 I'll see you next time.