WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:03.180 Django has reached a major milestone with its 2.0 release. 00:00:03.180 --> 00:00:07.820 This puts legacy Python, that is Python 2, fully in the rearview mirror 00:00:07.820 --> 00:00:09.960 and brings some nice new features to the framework. 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.040 Join me, along with Daniel Roy-Greenfield, 00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:15.800 to discuss what best practices we should adopt 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:18.660 and which ones are still entirely relevant. 00:00:18.660 --> 00:00:24.740 This is Talk Python To Me, episode 161, recorded April 23, 2018. 00:00:24.740 --> 00:00:42.060 Welcome to Talk Python To Me, a weekly podcast on Python, 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:45.120 the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, and the personalities. 00:00:45.120 --> 00:00:47.260 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:00:47.260 --> 00:00:49.260 Follow me on Twitter, where I'm @mkennedy. 00:00:49.260 --> 00:00:53.140 Keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpython.fm 00:00:53.140 --> 00:00:55.660 and follow the show on Twitter via at Talk Python. 00:00:55.660 --> 00:01:00.480 This episode is brought to you by MangaDB and ActiveState. 00:01:00.480 --> 00:01:02.760 Please check out what they're offering during their segments. 00:01:02.760 --> 00:01:04.240 It really helps support the show. 00:01:04.240 --> 00:01:06.060 Danny, welcome to Talk Python. 00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:07.640 Thanks for having me, Mike. 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:08.980 Yeah, it's great to have you here. 00:01:08.980 --> 00:01:11.780 I've been looking forward to having you on the show for quite some time. 00:01:11.780 --> 00:01:13.720 So we were finally able to put it together, weren't we? 00:01:13.720 --> 00:01:18.020 Yeah, it's been a few years since we first started talking. 00:01:18.020 --> 00:01:21.240 Yes, it's one of the more drawn-out guest appearances, 00:01:21.240 --> 00:01:22.380 but you're finally here. 00:01:22.820 --> 00:01:29.460 And I think the timing is really good because we now have a super major change in the Django world 00:01:29.460 --> 00:01:30.800 in that we have Django 2. 00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:33.640 Maybe not major in terms of features, 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:38.000 but that's a pretty big step to have, you know, go from 1.something to 2.0. 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:38.780 Absolutely. 00:01:38.780 --> 00:01:44.120 Especially considering that the big change is really under the hood. 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:53.140 It's basically the move from Django 1.11 to 2.0 was dropping support for Python 2.7. 00:01:53.140 --> 00:01:57.240 So from going forward, Django is 3 and higher. 00:01:57.240 --> 00:01:58.900 There's no other way to do it. 00:01:58.900 --> 00:02:01.180 Should they just make it super explosive and call it Django 3? 00:02:01.420 --> 00:02:06.060 I actually have some minor issues with the Django naming structure. 00:02:06.060 --> 00:02:08.340 And I actually think that maybe you're right. 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:10.880 Going to Django 3 might have been better. 00:02:10.880 --> 00:02:15.380 But the beauty of it, though, is that now the source code is going to be simpler, 00:02:15.380 --> 00:02:17.880 which means, you know, it'll be more stable. 00:02:17.880 --> 00:02:23.560 It'll be easier for them to implement more features or for the community to implement more features. 00:02:23.760 --> 00:02:27.660 Yeah, anything that attracts more contributors and doesn't chase them away with complexity. 00:02:27.660 --> 00:02:28.500 It's good stuff. 00:02:28.500 --> 00:02:29.820 Yeah, absolutely. 00:02:29.820 --> 00:02:34.940 I definitely want to focus some more on this Django 2 only being Python 3 only. 00:02:34.940 --> 00:02:37.720 But before we do, let's make sure we get to hear your story. 00:02:37.720 --> 00:02:38.980 How did you get into programming in Python? 00:02:38.980 --> 00:02:43.220 Originally, I got into programming because it was fun as a student. 00:02:43.220 --> 00:02:50.560 And as an adult, it was a much better way of making a living than working in restaurants or doing manual labor. 00:02:51.660 --> 00:02:58.220 And since I started coding, I explored a lot of different languages before settling on Python. 00:02:58.220 --> 00:03:02.460 I've done FoxPro, Perl, ColdFusion, Java. 00:03:02.460 --> 00:03:04.120 The list goes on and on. 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:10.480 But with Python, I was lucky enough to get employed at NASA. 00:03:10.480 --> 00:03:16.640 And there, a co-worker named Chris Shenton introduced me to it in the summer of 2005. 00:03:17.600 --> 00:03:30.660 And at that point, I was so tired of Django's, not Django's, Java's static typing in rigidity that I had delved into ColdFusion of all things. 00:03:30.660 --> 00:03:34.820 And because I liked the less static typing. 00:03:34.820 --> 00:03:40.300 And I know static typing is very popular in certain circles, but it's just not what I enjoy. 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:53.000 And when I discovered Python and its expressive syntax combined with its dynamic typing system of, you know, where you can, you know, it's strong typing, but not. 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:54.640 And I've really enjoyed that. 00:03:54.640 --> 00:03:56.180 And so I've been hooked ever since. 00:03:56.180 --> 00:03:58.200 Hence the name PyDanny. 00:03:58.200 --> 00:03:59.080 Yeah, of course. 00:03:59.080 --> 00:03:59.820 That's awesome. 00:03:59.820 --> 00:04:02.380 First of all, what were you doing at NASA? 00:04:02.380 --> 00:04:03.840 Like what projects were you working on? 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:04.980 That sounds really interesting. 00:04:04.980 --> 00:04:10.760 When I originally got hired there, it was for infrastructure support at NASA headquarters. 00:04:10.760 --> 00:04:11.800 Is that Cape Canaveral? 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:14.020 No, that's actually in Washington, D.C. 00:04:14.020 --> 00:04:22.840 And there's satellite offices, depending on the contract, in usually in Northern Virginia, but it can change to Maryland, I guess. 00:04:22.840 --> 00:04:25.800 I'm not sure what the contract state is right now. 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:30.260 Those companies can just kind of like spread in a ring around D.C. and like cross borders. 00:04:30.260 --> 00:04:31.580 It's kind of crazy around there. 00:04:31.580 --> 00:04:32.300 Yeah. 00:04:32.300 --> 00:04:36.920 And so what I was doing was a lot of infrastructure support. 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:46.820 And one of those things was tying a number of in-house projects to a X500 directory system. 00:04:46.820 --> 00:04:47.900 That's like LDAP. 00:04:47.900 --> 00:04:57.660 And what happened was, is that at some point, someone at NASA decided that they were going to switch to an active directory server, which is fine. 00:04:57.660 --> 00:05:01.700 But they implemented a self-signed security certificate. 00:05:01.700 --> 00:05:11.940 And the Java version that we were allowed to use in the day, which I think was 1.6, its implementation of Jindy couldn't interact with that. 00:05:11.940 --> 00:05:16.180 And so Chris Shenton got it to work with TCL. 00:05:16.180 --> 00:05:20.440 And then we figured out, him and I figured out how to do it with Python. 00:05:20.820 --> 00:05:26.500 And so that gave us the business reason to bring Python into more of NASA headquarters. 00:05:26.500 --> 00:05:27.400 That's nice. 00:05:27.400 --> 00:05:29.700 I'm sure it's playing a pretty important role there now. 00:05:29.700 --> 00:05:30.860 I believe so. 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:38.460 In fact, Chris Shenton has done a number of talks on using Python with AWS Lambda at NASA headquarters. 00:05:38.460 --> 00:05:40.360 It's really fascinating stuff. 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:44.620 And I guess I can probably link to some of his talks at the end of this. 00:05:44.620 --> 00:05:44.880 Yeah. 00:05:44.880 --> 00:05:45.080 Yeah. 00:05:45.080 --> 00:05:45.780 Throw them in the show notes. 00:05:45.780 --> 00:05:46.340 That'd be great. 00:05:46.340 --> 00:05:47.260 That'd be really cool. 00:05:47.260 --> 00:05:50.780 So what was the coolest thing that happened while you were at NASA? 00:05:50.780 --> 00:05:52.700 I got to start with Python. 00:05:52.700 --> 00:05:54.620 Yeah, that is pretty cool, right? 00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:55.680 Very, very cool. 00:05:55.680 --> 00:05:58.620 Shaking hands with astronauts is a close second to that. 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:00.060 So yeah, pretty awesome. 00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:04.400 It's definitely one of those places that it at least has this really big, noble goal. 00:06:04.400 --> 00:06:11.700 Like you could go write amazing technology at like a hedge fund, but it's not the same as like, yeah, we're helping launch satellites or do whatever, right? 00:06:11.700 --> 00:06:12.300 Absolutely. 00:06:12.300 --> 00:06:16.900 If you ever get the chance to do something like that, by all means, do it. 00:06:16.900 --> 00:06:17.320 Yeah, cool. 00:06:17.320 --> 00:06:19.420 And then how do you get into open source? 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:23.740 Well, I got into open source because Python is all about open source. 00:06:23.740 --> 00:06:30.320 And while Java technically is open source, when I was still doing Java, it wasn't. 00:06:30.320 --> 00:06:36.360 It was a Sun project and then I guess an Oracle project, or it's an Oracle project now. 00:06:36.640 --> 00:06:40.820 But it didn't have the same ethos and environment and community. 00:06:40.820 --> 00:06:47.260 Yeah, Oracle doesn't scream like open source to me in terms of just the company culture. 00:06:47.260 --> 00:06:53.440 I feel it's more likely somebody will show up in like a full on suit than like talk about their open source project coming from there. 00:06:53.440 --> 00:06:56.300 But I guess there is definitely some stuff happening at Oracle. 00:06:56.300 --> 00:06:59.620 They just released some pretty interesting new runtime. 00:06:59.620 --> 00:07:02.260 I can't remember exactly what it's called. 00:07:02.260 --> 00:07:02.880 Have you heard of this? 00:07:02.880 --> 00:07:04.380 It's something with a G. 00:07:04.380 --> 00:07:06.720 I don't pay attention to Java news. 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:11.680 It's GraalVM, G-R-A-A-L-V-M. 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:18.980 And apparently it's like a new virtual machine for Python and some other stuff as well, like JavaScript and Rust. 00:07:18.980 --> 00:07:22.860 And I don't know, maybe it's going to be something amazing, but I haven't been paying attention enough. 00:07:22.860 --> 00:07:25.220 So I guess give them some credit for open source. 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:26.940 They are doing some things these days, right? 00:07:26.940 --> 00:07:27.980 Yes, absolutely. 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:34.320 So I got into open source because it was fun and it was exciting. 00:07:34.320 --> 00:07:44.120 It was great to see people give me a pat on the back as a beginner in a new language and a new tool set that who I respected. 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:49.500 And those pats on the back were actually a form of credibility. 00:07:50.020 --> 00:07:56.820 So I've been, you know, after a few years of doing that, I guess I released my first open source package in 2009. 00:07:56.820 --> 00:07:57.780 Do you remember what it was? 00:07:57.780 --> 00:07:58.500 Yes. 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:02.200 There are several that I released at that time. 00:08:02.440 --> 00:08:09.960 The most notable one or the one with the most GitHub stars and downloads is a package called Django Crispy Forms. 00:08:09.960 --> 00:08:13.420 And it's one of the predominant form libraries for Django. 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:16.940 But and at that time I called it Django Uniform. 00:08:16.940 --> 00:08:20.080 But I had also done some clone packages. 00:08:20.080 --> 00:08:27.820 And I think there I attempted to write a new logging library because I didn't like Python's logging system. 00:08:27.820 --> 00:08:33.440 I think everybody goes through that stage as a Python developer, like, oh, I want to write my own logging. 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:35.120 The five stages of logging. 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:35.920 Yes. 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:40.120 So, yeah, I've been doing that since 2009. 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:46.100 And since 2013, I've been helping other people build their packages, which has been pretty awesome. 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:48.280 It's kind of like paying it forward. 00:08:48.280 --> 00:08:49.060 That's really cool. 00:08:49.060 --> 00:08:50.360 How did you get involved with Django? 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.640 At NASA headquarters, we were doing a lot of clone work. 00:08:54.880 --> 00:08:59.460 Actually, originally, we weren't doing any web work for my first few years of doing Python. 00:08:59.460 --> 00:09:01.580 There was essentially no web. 00:09:01.580 --> 00:09:04.960 And then we got a project where we could use clone. 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:11.040 So we use clone and then nothing against clone, but it's a big, complex animal. 00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:20.220 And so when we had a new project, which was to build a Facebook clone for internal use at NASA, we decide to use Django. 00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:23.220 And that was at the end of 2008. 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:31.120 And so that's when I started with Django, was really the end of 2008, the start of 2009. 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.060 And it was a bit woolier back then. 00:09:35.060 --> 00:09:38.660 And it's really come a long way since. 00:09:38.660 --> 00:09:40.960 Of course, it's definitely come a long, long way. 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:41.660 That's awesome. 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:44.220 So that's about 10 years ago. 00:09:44.220 --> 00:09:44.920 What are you up to now? 00:09:44.920 --> 00:09:47.160 Now I do mix. 00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:53.860 Well, I still do quite a lot of Python and Django as well, mostly with REST APIs. 00:09:53.860 --> 00:10:04.460 My not so dark or not so hidden secret is that I actually do a lot of Flask because we use AWS Lambda a lot on our projects. 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:14.000 And our rule is if we don't have a SQL persistence store in the back end, then we use Flask that we don't want to staple anything in. 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.060 Or better yet, if we don't need a persistence store, we use Flask. 00:10:18.060 --> 00:10:21.100 So that's our go-to tool. 00:10:21.100 --> 00:10:28.260 And recently we've delved into Vue.js, some modern JavaScript, which has been kind of interesting. 00:10:28.260 --> 00:10:33.740 I'm a big fan of Vue.js as well over things like Angular and whatnot. 00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:35.340 What drew you to it? 00:10:35.340 --> 00:10:40.880 Maybe tell people real quickly just like kind of generally what Vue.js is and then answer my question. 00:10:40.880 --> 00:10:46.180 Vue.js is roughly analogous to React or Angular. 00:10:46.180 --> 00:10:54.040 It is an open source front-end JavaScript framework for building responsive, progressive web applications. 00:10:54.840 --> 00:11:01.500 And it can be used, you can call it by just sticking in a script line in your application. 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:06.960 So it's great for bringing over projects that already exist, you know, legacy projects. 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:09.440 But also it can be used for new projects. 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:16.480 And the virtue that I feel it has over its competitors is it's not as enterprise-y. 00:11:17.040 --> 00:11:28.280 And I know the word enterprise is a word that there's multiple definitions, but I like the relative simplicity of it and its directness. 00:11:28.280 --> 00:11:31.980 I don't have to learn a new DSL to work. 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:35.280 Well, I guess you do kind of have to learn a DSL to use it. 00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:39.600 There's the template directives, but it's nothing like having to learn JSX. 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:40.180 Yeah, for sure. 00:11:40.420 --> 00:11:46.060 And yeah, so I think with these frameworks, it's really a matter of taste. 00:11:46.060 --> 00:11:52.420 But the one thing I do have to say that I like about Vue.js is it's not dependent on Facebook or Google. 00:11:52.420 --> 00:11:57.000 Vue.js is an independently funded project. 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:06.400 So if Google or Facebook decides to drop their projects, there's nothing like that will happen with Vue.js. 00:12:06.400 --> 00:12:13.100 So there's nothing like the Angular 1 to more modern versions of the Angular transition that you'll have to deal with. 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:18.540 That it doesn't require like CLIs and sort of compilation, transpilation steps and all that. 00:12:18.540 --> 00:12:22.700 It's just like, like you said, drop a script file in, maybe write a little JavaScript and off you go. 00:12:22.700 --> 00:12:26.580 Yeah, I don't use it much, but when I need that kind of stuff, that's the one I turn to. 00:12:26.780 --> 00:12:29.360 So, and you also just released a packaging course, right? 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:30.440 Tell us about that. 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:37.620 So what happened was, is we were invited to PyCon Colombia, my wife and I, Audrey Roy Greenfeld. 00:12:37.620 --> 00:12:41.180 We were invited to PyCon Colombia to give the closing keynote. 00:12:41.180 --> 00:12:44.480 And we gave a talk on packaging. 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.900 And, you know, people seemed to like it. 00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:52.320 And they said, wow, it'd be great if we could actually learn this in more detail. 00:12:52.660 --> 00:13:01.820 So we ran a test workshop in Medellin, Colombia, where we, you know, gave out the course material free for a few days. 00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:06.600 And the response, and we also allowed people to join in from around the world. 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.340 And the response was really stunning. 00:13:10.040 --> 00:13:14.280 So we decided, hey, let's make this an ongoing thing. 00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:16.840 And we decided to charge for it. 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:19.980 So that way, that means that we can really work on it. 00:13:19.980 --> 00:13:21.020 Open source is great. 00:13:21.020 --> 00:13:26.800 But without funding, you just, everything else is the priority when you're doing volunteer open source work. 00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:29.120 So that's why we're charging for it. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.220 And it's entirely Python neutral. 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:35.160 I know we're talking a lot about Django, but this is pure Python. 00:13:36.060 --> 00:13:43.220 And it is built on proven and awesome tools like Cookie Cutter, pytest, and Tox. 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:54.280 It also uses proven software solutions like Read the Docs, PyUp.io, which is the security backend for Pipenv, as well as Travis. 00:13:54.280 --> 00:14:02.200 And, you know, it's kind of with Cookie Cutter, it's kind of our mission to make packaging easier and better for everyone. 00:14:02.400 --> 00:14:03.580 Yeah, it sounds like a really cool project. 00:14:03.580 --> 00:14:05.660 And I love a lot of the tools you mentioned. 00:14:05.660 --> 00:14:06.640 Cookie Cutter is great. 00:14:06.640 --> 00:14:09.360 Like you guys, you and Audrey are behind that. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:11.500 That was more Audrey's thing she was leading. 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:13.640 But it's still, that's going strong. 00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:17.140 We could spend a lot of time on that, but maybe save that for another episode. 00:14:17.140 --> 00:14:26.380 But I think things like PyUp, I use PyUp for all of my web apps to basically tell me if there's any dependency updates, and especially if there's security updates. 00:14:26.380 --> 00:14:27.740 I think that's great stuff. 00:14:27.740 --> 00:14:29.220 So, yeah, it's really cool. 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:37.120 I do wish packaging in Python was a little simpler, especially for distribution to other people, not to servers. 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.880 But, yeah. 00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:39.740 I think... 00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:40.180 Absolutely. 00:14:40.180 --> 00:14:51.060 I think the next major thing, well, a thing that could be the next major thing that really ramps up the popularity and usage of Python would be making it simpler to hand out running Python applications. 00:14:51.060 --> 00:15:10.720 That would be wonderful if it happens, especially because, you know, packaging is so important for, you know, not just open source work or running on servers, but, you know, any kind of architecture, be it monoliths or microservices, you always have repeated patterns that can be captured by installable packages. 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:17.760 The problem, though, is we have this, I guess, break between the pip world and the condo world. 00:15:17.760 --> 00:15:20.740 Bridging that is pretty challenging. 00:15:20.920 --> 00:15:25.500 And I know the condo team is trying to figure out a way to bridge that. 00:15:25.500 --> 00:15:29.580 And I'm not an expert on it by any stretch of the imagination. 00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:40.180 But I know when you're trying to build out projects that'll work in every environment on all the supported Python versions, I know from a lot of personal experience, that's hard to do. 00:15:40.180 --> 00:15:44.440 And then to get it to work with pip and condo, that's even harder. 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:50.700 And even though there's solutions to do it, implementing them, getting them to work is not trivial. 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:51.060 Yeah. 00:15:51.060 --> 00:15:55.540 And we have packaging stuff like CX Freeze, Py2App, Py2Exe, all these things. 00:15:55.540 --> 00:16:01.100 But it seems to me like they all 95% work until they don't. 00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:17.200 And so I dream of a day where I can just type Python dash M build or something like that, you know, and just have it like some sort of thing that is part of Python itself that truly perfectly can like replicate itself in a reproducible way. 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.800 I don't know if that's going to happen in our lifetime. 00:16:19.800 --> 00:16:21.560 I'm telling you, I told you it was a dream. 00:16:21.560 --> 00:16:22.180 It was a dream. 00:16:22.180 --> 00:16:22.800 All right. 00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:29.380 But stuff that will happen in our lifetime, I'm sure, is Django is going to continue to be going on strong. 00:16:29.460 --> 00:16:35.660 So let's talk about Django, which is what we're actually here for, even though you've got to package those things up and put them on servers as well. 00:16:35.660 --> 00:16:44.640 So maybe I know many people know about Django, but there's a lot of listeners, scientists, data scientists, students, and so on who maybe are not super familiar. 00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:48.500 They probably heard the word, but give us just a quick overview of like what's the elevator pitch for Django? 00:16:48.500 --> 00:16:49.140 Okay. 00:16:49.140 --> 00:16:55.340 Django is a high level Python web framework designed to work with relational databases. 00:16:55.940 --> 00:17:05.940 If you really want to, you can staple in MongoDB or another non-relational data store, but then you'd lose a lot of the virtues of Django. 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:18.900 And those virtues specifically are, or the primary virtues, Django makes a lot of the decisions as to which software components you use and the architecture you follow. 00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:23.900 So that way you can focus on business logic instead of all the other pieces. 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:28.980 Because the truth of it is, is that your business logic is never simple. 00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:32.960 It always gets complex, even for what seems like a simple project. 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:37.120 So why not let Django handle that kind of stuff? 00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:37.480 Right. 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:49.280 You know, every single app that I've had that ever has interacted with customers that maybe have some kind of thing they own or they interact with or history or anything has accounts. 00:17:49.280 --> 00:17:55.860 As soon as you have user accounts, then you have to have the ability to register, the ability to log in. 00:17:55.860 --> 00:18:00.240 And as soon as that happens, like the very first day, someone's going to say, I forgot my password. 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.980 So you got to have email so that they can reset their password, right? 00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:05.780 Like this, all of a sudden you're like, I just wanted to have accounts. 00:18:05.780 --> 00:18:08.020 And now this is like a week long project, right? 00:18:08.020 --> 00:18:10.020 This is a significant challenge. 00:18:10.020 --> 00:18:17.060 I mean, there are companies, Okta and others that make a lot of money solving this problem for you. 00:18:17.060 --> 00:18:23.120 And Django combined with one or two other packages just does this for you free. 00:18:23.120 --> 00:18:25.520 Or I guess it's open source, so it's not free. 00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:26.660 But you get the point. 00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:27.900 It does it for you. 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.880 So that's the power of Django is that it gives that to you. 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:34.800 And yes, you can customize it. 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:37.960 If you want to use SQLAlchemy with Django, you can. 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.260 All you have to do is import SQLAlchemy. 00:18:40.260 --> 00:18:42.260 It's not hard. 00:18:42.260 --> 00:18:44.640 So you can make changes to it. 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:49.580 Sorry, I forget the name of the guest, but like a year and a half ago, you probably know better than I do. 00:18:49.580 --> 00:18:53.780 I had the folks that wrote the book Lightweight Django, which is an interesting. 00:18:53.780 --> 00:18:55.300 Do you remember who that is? 00:18:55.300 --> 00:18:56.000 Yes. 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:57.500 I can't remember the names. 00:18:57.500 --> 00:18:58.220 I'm so embarrassed. 00:18:58.220 --> 00:18:59.440 But I know the book. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:00.780 I know the authors. 00:19:00.780 --> 00:19:01.740 I'm sorry. 00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:03.200 I'll try to link to it. 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.360 Yeah, it was a great book. 00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:05.820 And they're both really smart. 00:19:05.820 --> 00:19:12.460 And so that was an interesting look, I thought, inside Django, where it was like, yes, you can have these big projects. 00:19:12.460 --> 00:19:16.680 But actually, that's just how the start, the sort of create app stuff works. 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:18.040 It doesn't have to work that way. 00:19:18.040 --> 00:19:20.340 We can break it down into these smaller pieces if you want. 00:19:20.340 --> 00:19:20.880 Yeah. 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:23.220 And it's kind of touching on with your SQLAlchemy thing there. 00:19:26.520 --> 00:19:27.220 Hey, everyone. 00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:27.920 Michael here. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:33.320 Did you know I'll be doing a three-part webcast series about MongoDB and Python from May to June? 00:19:33.320 --> 00:19:36.920 We'll see why MongoDB is a great choice for Python web apps. 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:44.000 In this series, we'll go through the entire process of building a clone of PyPI, Python's packaging website, over at pypi.org. 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.920 Everything from building the front end to deploying the web app and MongoDB to the cloud. 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:54.940 You'll learn everything from document modeling basics to special considerations for running MongoDB in production. 00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:56.380 The webinar is free. 00:19:56.380 --> 00:20:02.780 So just click on the link in the show notes or go to mongadb.com slash webinar slash Python and sign up. 00:20:02.780 --> 00:20:03.920 See you in May. 00:20:04.780 --> 00:20:10.600 So some of those ideas or concepts you just talked about are definitely part of what makes Django popular. 00:20:10.600 --> 00:20:15.180 But, you know, it came on the scene roughly around the same time. 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:18.900 There was like kind of a flourishing of web frameworks 10 years ago or something. 00:20:18.900 --> 00:20:22.760 It seems like looking back, why is it so popular amongst those? 00:20:22.760 --> 00:20:33.200 Of the other Python frameworks of the time, most of them have, actually, I think all of them have kind of faded away into very much a tertiary position. 00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:40.980 But when it came on, there was a Python framework called Zope with a CMS that it powered called Plone that was very popular at the time. 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:50.400 And that framework grew out of the Java 2 Enterprise Edition version of building stuff, which was very enterprise-y. 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:58.260 And the more components you had, the better, to the point that to implement anything trivial like a form just took a lot of work. 00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:05.260 Django made that, compared to projects of the time, very trivial to do. 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:13.320 And since then, it's maintained its popularity, even against libraries like Flask, which, you know, like I said before, I use. 00:21:13.320 --> 00:21:16.320 And it's many clones, some of them who are asynchronous. 00:21:16.320 --> 00:21:20.560 It does this because it, one, it has market presence. 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:24.180 And it makes a lot of these decisions for you. 00:21:24.180 --> 00:21:32.260 Instead of, you know, as I mentioned before, instead of figuring out which package or component to use out of the box, Django does that for you. 00:21:32.260 --> 00:21:41.040 So that way you can implement your project and then not have to, you know, if you want to replace it later as business needs dictate, you can. 00:21:41.260 --> 00:21:44.100 But out of the box, it just gives you a ton of stuff. 00:21:44.100 --> 00:21:47.940 It has the same batteries-included approach that Python does. 00:21:47.940 --> 00:21:48.640 Yeah, that's cool. 00:21:48.640 --> 00:22:01.760 I feel like it's easy to get kind of a hindsight bias or a curse of knowledge or whatever you want to call it, where you, as an experienced developer that's been working in Python for a long time, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to use this package for this. 00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:05.140 And that package for logging, and that package for mail, and that package for data access. 00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:17.660 And it's easy to think, well, I just want to grab my little favorite pieces and put them together and create, like, this little super web project that I'm working on, which is actually how I work a lot of the time myself. 00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:23.320 But it's when you're new, those are not necessarily joyful things, right? 00:22:23.320 --> 00:22:25.260 It's, like, super overwhelming. 00:22:25.260 --> 00:22:27.300 Like, there's all these different databases. 00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:33.660 Each of them have many ways to talk to them, either directly or through a variety of ORMs or ODMs. 00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:36.380 And it's just, it's a lot, right? 00:22:36.380 --> 00:22:44.260 And so I feel like Django does bring quite a bit for, you know, a significant number of people to say, here's what we prescribe. 00:22:44.260 --> 00:22:47.240 Put in the pieces that you want of logic. 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:47.680 Absolutely. 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:57.000 And because it's Python, the other thing that's nice, and this is just Django or any Python web framework in general, is because it's Python. 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.720 It plugs in with the whole data science world, trivially. 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:05.920 And, you know, I'm always kicking myself thinking, gosh, I want to be doing more data science. 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:16.120 But fortunately, when I do get the chance to, you know, play around with Pandas, and I need to display the result of data, making it work with Django is easy. 00:23:16.120 --> 00:23:26.620 I know people in the Node and Rails world who, you know, when they work with tools like Panda, they've got to jump through, you know, there's extra hoops to make it happen. 00:23:26.620 --> 00:23:32.200 And thankfully, the Django and Flask and Pyramid world, we don't have to worry about it. 00:23:32.280 --> 00:23:38.320 Yeah, that is pretty interesting that, like, so much of the machine learning stuff and the data science stuff is in Python. 00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:44.380 And that just means, you know, you can, you know, we think about full stack programming already, right? 00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:45.540 This is another level, right? 00:23:45.540 --> 00:23:50.520 Another aspect of, like, you can just plug machine learning straight in, and you don't have to basically do anything, right? 00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:51.600 Just call it. 00:23:51.800 --> 00:23:53.580 Yeah, it's an exciting time to live. 00:23:53.580 --> 00:23:54.640 Let's just put it that way. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:56.620 Yeah, I kind of feel the same way every day I wake up. 00:23:56.620 --> 00:23:57.940 I'm like, it's so amazing to be alive. 00:23:57.940 --> 00:23:58.300 Let's go. 00:23:58.300 --> 00:23:59.120 What else are we going to do? 00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:05.840 Oh, another thing I want to bring up about Django, and this is one of my favorite selling points, is its security. 00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:11.140 You know, if you follow Django's best practices, odds are you're going to be in a good place. 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:20.980 If you don't have debug equals true in production, you know, odds are you're going to be not having to worry about people penetrating your system. 00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:27.020 And there's also a pretty large and dedicated security team that works. 00:24:27.020 --> 00:24:32.100 I mean, the core Django team has a security group that's large and dedicated. 00:24:32.100 --> 00:24:44.200 In fact, every version of Two Scoops of Django that we've released, the security sections have been vetted extensively by the security group. 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:51.160 It's, yeah, we spend more time on that, the chapters and appendices in the book for security than any other place, 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:56.260 just because they go over it with such a fine tooth comb. 00:24:56.260 --> 00:24:57.660 That's really great to hear. 00:24:57.660 --> 00:25:01.480 I mean, that's one of the things that definitely can keep you up at night. 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:07.760 I mean, or if you're doing this for your company, it can be dramatic when that kind of stuff slips. 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:11.800 So they do have such a great attention to detail on the security space. 00:25:11.800 --> 00:25:17.620 That debug equals true problem in production, that is not good. 00:25:17.620 --> 00:25:26.760 There was some security researcher that had, like, gone through and realized that they could actually pull the AWS secret keys out of a bunch. 00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:30.340 And Stripe keys, MailChimp key, you name it. 00:25:30.340 --> 00:25:39.920 The API keys that are stored, basically, in memory were things that you could just go scan and pull out of these things because they're running the debug tools. 00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:40.560 Absolutely. 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:43.440 So a little bit of background. 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:51.080 Someone went to, I think they went through various Heroku apps or powered apps and nothing against Heroku. 00:25:51.080 --> 00:25:58.000 But Heroku is a common target for people first learning how to deploy Django because at the basic level, it's free. 00:25:58.220 --> 00:25:58.960 And it's simple, right? 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:02.420 There's like, you don't have to configure Nginx and uWSGI or GUnicorn. 00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:04.920 You just like push app. 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:05.540 Right. 00:26:05.540 --> 00:26:07.940 And I think Python Anywhere as well. 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:13.420 And they found 28,000 instances of people's Django projects. 00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:18.620 And most of them were probably just simple tutorial applications where they set debug equals true. 00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:22.240 And it doesn't matter how secure your framework is. 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:26.800 If you have it in debug mode in production, it's, you know, it's game over. 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:28.460 There's nothing that can be done. 00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:29.520 That's your fault. 00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:30.740 That's not the framework's fault. 00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:32.560 It's somewhat of an education thing. 00:26:32.560 --> 00:26:33.540 But I don't know. 00:26:33.540 --> 00:26:35.660 Maybe you could do it. 00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:36.880 Maybe you could somehow deal with this. 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:44.900 But nothing really comes to mind unless there's just like a huge scary box that absolutely appears on every page. 00:26:44.900 --> 00:26:46.680 Then probably it would help. 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:48.520 But, you know, it's a tradeoff, right? 00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:48.960 Yeah. 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:49.320 Yeah. 00:26:49.320 --> 00:26:51.980 Well, definitely be sure to follow the security best practices. 00:26:51.980 --> 00:26:53.380 But once you do, then it's all good. 00:26:53.380 --> 00:26:53.720 All right. 00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:59.680 So one of the things I said when we got started was the Django 2 announcement is a really big deal. 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:03.300 And I want to kind of set the stage for that before I ask you more about it. 00:27:03.300 --> 00:27:10.260 A while ago, two years maybe, there was more of a debate about Python 2 versus Python 3. 00:27:10.260 --> 00:27:12.380 And are we going to cross that chasm? 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:14.240 And I feel like we're kind of on the downward. 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:21.200 Like we're coasting downhill to like wrap that up, even though it's going to become really bumpy around 2020. 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:22.520 It's going to be real interesting. 00:27:22.520 --> 00:27:24.040 Very bumpy. 00:27:24.040 --> 00:27:24.780 Very bumpy. 00:27:24.780 --> 00:27:27.520 But it's going to be the bottom of the hill and the bumps are going to be there. 00:27:27.520 --> 00:27:30.800 Anyway, I think we're kind of over the debate. 00:27:30.800 --> 00:27:44.180 But one of the things that was really interesting around Python 3 a little while ago with Django was they switched the default recommendation and just the tutorial steps of using Python 2 to using Python 3. 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:50.520 And that made a really noticeable difference in the PyPI download statistics for Python 3 usage. 00:27:50.520 --> 00:27:51.680 Oh, I didn't know that. 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:52.080 Yeah. 00:27:52.080 --> 00:27:55.020 Basically, the tutorial switched to say, here's how you get started. 00:27:55.020 --> 00:27:56.620 You type Python 3, this, da, da, da. 00:27:56.620 --> 00:28:00.000 And that made like a 5% difference in the usage. 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:07.800 So the reason I bring this up is that that is such a dramatic difference that even a small change has. 00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:11.100 And now being Python 3 only, it's just going to take it to another level. 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:22.620 And so I think Django is one of these things that stands out in the community as really having power to move that needle on the Python 2 versus Python 3 debate. 00:28:22.620 --> 00:28:24.180 You mentioned pandas before. 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:25.720 They're also going Python 3 only. 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.520 So we're seeing this in other more than just Django. 00:28:28.520 --> 00:28:30.560 But it's a big deal, right? 00:28:30.740 --> 00:28:34.400 Okay, so let me give you some background so I can give you my example. 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:39.380 I maintain or I help maintain or co-maintain a number of packages. 00:28:39.380 --> 00:28:43.400 And some of them, for example, Cookie Cutter, which I'm one of the maintainers on, 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:51.220 we maintain every supported version of Python and some unsupported ones across every major operating system. 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:54.760 And doing that is challenging. 00:28:54.760 --> 00:28:55.760 It's possible. 00:28:55.760 --> 00:29:04.240 And I'm not going to say it's easy because sometimes things just suddenly break and, you know, you have Unicode issues and stuff like that. 00:29:04.600 --> 00:29:14.320 And when you get to move a package to just one version, major version of Python, like from 2 to 3, it's wonderful. 00:29:14.320 --> 00:29:15.000 It's bliss. 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:18.260 You get to remove tons of special code. 00:29:18.520 --> 00:29:22.400 And I know there's libraries like 6 and Futures that makes it easier. 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.140 But trust me, you get to get rid of tons of code. 00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:33.040 You have logic trees that you hope are being tested properly until someone reports an edge case. 00:29:33.040 --> 00:29:34.600 All that goes away. 00:29:34.600 --> 00:29:41.120 So it really lowers the amount of effort you have to put in to maintain a project. 00:29:41.340 --> 00:29:50.720 So what this means is it's not an immediate effect for Django to move to Python 3 besides, you know, the increased downloads on PyPI. 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:51.100 Right. 00:29:51.100 --> 00:29:52.600 Because it ran in Python 3 already. 00:29:52.600 --> 00:29:54.600 It's not like, oh, now it supports Python 3. 00:29:54.600 --> 00:29:56.560 It just drops support for the old one. 00:29:56.560 --> 00:29:56.980 Yeah. 00:29:56.980 --> 00:30:01.600 And the thing is, it's not that you'll necessarily see more features. 00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:17.700 But what you may see, because maybe something's pretty feature complete, but what you may see is maintainers having more bandwidth to answer questions, to make sure that tasks are actually testing what they're supposed to be testing. 00:30:17.860 --> 00:30:26.160 So the end result is, even if you don't see more features in a project that's Python 3 only, it will be more polished. 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:27.260 It will run better. 00:30:27.260 --> 00:30:36.700 The maintainers will be able to be more responsive simply because they have less work to do in maintaining compatibility over multiple versions. 00:30:36.700 --> 00:30:46.440 As one of the maintainers of Cookie Cutter, I can tell you we cannot wait until we only have to maintain one version of, one major version of Python. 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:47.300 Do you have plans for that? 00:30:47.500 --> 00:30:48.960 In 2020, when that happens? 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.680 Eat a lot of cookies. 00:30:50.680 --> 00:30:53.980 We're going to celebrate with cookies. 00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:59.160 I guess that's the most formal plans that we have right now because that's still, you know, two years away. 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:05.020 I'm really glad to hear Guido come out and say it's January 1st and put an actual date on it because it was within a year range. 00:31:05.020 --> 00:31:05.900 There's a lot of speculation. 00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:07.700 Oh, so it is January 1st. 00:31:07.700 --> 00:31:07.960 Okay. 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.500 I heard that, but I wasn't able to confirm that. 00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:10.820 Yeah. 00:31:10.820 --> 00:31:17.480 There was some very strong statement that Guido came out and said, like, let's not mince words or, like, be ambiguous. 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.440 It's going to be end of life. 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.520 No more support. 00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:21.140 Period. 00:31:21.140 --> 00:31:23.640 January 1st, 2020. 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:24.160 Oh, wow. 00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:26.920 Do not expect the core developers to help you even with security. 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:27.720 That's it. 00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:28.820 Like, something to that effect. 00:31:28.820 --> 00:31:31.140 I mean, that's paraphrasing, but that's more or less what he said. 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:31.840 Well, who knows? 00:31:31.840 --> 00:31:37.120 We might release a cookie cutter enterprise support edition for 2.7. 00:31:37.120 --> 00:31:37.580 That's right. 00:31:37.580 --> 00:31:40.720 Because we know that there's a lot of big companies using cookie cutter. 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.120 And who knows? 00:31:42.120 --> 00:31:47.100 We know that there's a legacy Django group that has a business plan like that. 00:31:47.100 --> 00:31:48.400 So, who knows? 00:31:48.520 --> 00:31:59.080 As a way to kind of lead into the next question, I feel like we've been around long enough to know the whole change in the Y2K era. 00:31:59.080 --> 00:32:02.160 Like, I remember when it was like... 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:02.900 I remember that. 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:04.920 Do you have a flight on January 1st? 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:06.060 You might not be able to go. 00:32:06.060 --> 00:32:07.480 Like, the computers may be... 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.900 Like, people were, like, legitimately, like, we don't know what's going to happen. 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:14.560 And I think January 1st, 2020 is a little bit like that. 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.120 It's not going to be like the code is going to stop running. 00:32:17.120 --> 00:32:24.560 But people who, you know, as soon as there's, like, some sort of major security issue and the CEO says, 00:32:24.560 --> 00:32:29.300 I heard that there's this big problem and we kind of use the same software stack, but we're fine, right? 00:32:29.300 --> 00:32:32.460 Like, no, we're actually not fine because you didn't fund us upgrading to Python 3. 00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:36.520 Consultants will be hired at whatever rate they want right then, right? 00:32:36.520 --> 00:32:38.720 So, there's going to be a definite... 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:39.900 Oh, yeah, that's true. 00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:40.360 Yeah. 00:32:40.360 --> 00:32:43.020 It's not going to be quite on the single day. 00:32:43.080 --> 00:32:50.420 But there's going to be some serious consulting for people that know how to upgrade Django apps, upgrade Python in general, right? 00:32:50.420 --> 00:32:50.820 Right. 00:32:50.820 --> 00:33:08.200 So, what Mike is talking about here is after 2000, you had some of it leading up to it, but after the year 2000, COBOL developers, you know, the old programming language COBOL, which still drives a significant part of our banking system, suddenly became the hot thing. 00:33:08.560 --> 00:33:15.900 And they, you know, they're pulled out of retirement and they were making, you know, salaries, crazy, crazy salaries. 00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:20.400 And I remember thinking, gosh, maybe I should have learned how to program in COBOL at the time. 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.920 What he's insinuating is some of this will happen. 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:39.560 And I know that there are some industries where the software, like, for example, the visual effects industry, last I heard, they were still very much stuck on like Python 2.5 or 2.6 that runs inside their commercial software that they use. 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:44.400 And so, we'll see what happens with them in the year 2020. 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.820 Will they upgrade or we'll see. 00:33:46.820 --> 00:33:47.700 Yeah, we'll see. 00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:49.340 But it's going to be an interesting time. 00:33:49.340 --> 00:33:54.000 The next question I wanted to ask you is who should be upgrading to Django 2? 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.300 First of all, there's just a couple of new, really nice features. 00:33:57.300 --> 00:33:58.660 Do you want to touch on those first? 00:33:58.660 --> 00:33:59.240 Sure. 00:33:59.460 --> 00:34:04.100 Actually, what's interesting, the change from Django 1.11 to 2.0 was minor. 00:34:04.100 --> 00:34:14.920 It was less than the change from 1.10 to 1.11, which is kind of interesting, especially for someone who published a book called Two Skips of Django 1.11. 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:19.720 Because we have people coming to us and saying, oh, well, it still worked with 2.0. 00:34:19.720 --> 00:34:22.900 And it's like, yeah, 98% of the book still works. 00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:26.140 But there are two little things that are kind of nice. 00:34:26.140 --> 00:34:32.060 One is the routing system for URLs is very Flask-like now, the default one. 00:34:32.060 --> 00:34:38.140 That's easier for beginners or for people who just don't like to play around with regular expressions like I do. 00:34:38.140 --> 00:34:47.280 It always struck me as a little bit contrary to the zen of Django to have regular expressions in there. 00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.100 Because Django is all about helping you make things easy and make these choices. 00:34:51.100 --> 00:34:54.100 And, oh, by the way, here's this crazy, super hard syntax. 00:34:54.100 --> 00:34:56.000 If you're not a programmer, you put that here. 00:34:56.000 --> 00:35:00.320 You're like, whoa, why is this not just like clearly the name, right? 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.940 Like Flask or Pyramid or whatever. 00:35:02.940 --> 00:35:07.400 So the contrarian in me says, what's wrong with regular expressions? 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:10.380 But the realist in me agrees with you. 00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:10.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:15.920 I mean, think of the marketing person who decided they're going to learn a little programming so they can get some interactive site. 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:18.680 Like that person is going to have a hard time with regular expressions. 00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:21.220 Yeah, I can't disagree with you there. 00:35:21.220 --> 00:35:25.040 The other thing is the admin interface that comes with Django. 00:35:25.040 --> 00:35:27.220 That's now mobile friendly by default. 00:35:27.220 --> 00:35:30.360 So you don't need to install another package to make that work. 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:39.420 So that's really nice, especially since often when you're accessing the admin, you're doing it from your phone, trying to fix something, you know, in the middle of the night from bed. 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.540 You get woken up by like a pager thing. 00:35:44.540 --> 00:35:45.820 Okay, we'll fix this. 00:35:45.820 --> 00:35:47.460 Or on vacation. 00:35:47.460 --> 00:35:49.880 Or on vacation when you have a slow connection. 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:55.700 So yeah, so those are the two significant changes or what I consider the two significant changes. 00:35:55.700 --> 00:35:57.500 And as you can see, they're pretty small. 00:35:57.500 --> 00:36:02.680 Again, the big switch with 2.0 is going to Python 3 only. 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:09.260 And then, you know, that leads in the question of why shouldn't you move to Django 2.0? 00:36:09.260 --> 00:36:11.760 And there actually are a few reasons. 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.680 Django 2.0 is a standard release for Django. 00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:20.980 And that means it is supported by the core team for less than a year. 00:36:20.980 --> 00:36:28.800 Whereas Django 1.11 is a long-term support release, which means it's going to be supported until at least April 2020. 00:36:29.220 --> 00:36:36.640 Although we'll see what that means with Guido dropping support for Python 2 on January 1. 00:36:36.640 --> 00:36:38.200 Maybe it'll truncate it a little bit. 00:36:38.200 --> 00:36:38.960 Yeah, who knows? 00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:39.300 Yeah. 00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:47.200 So in fact, what that means is Django 1.11 is going to be supported longer than 2.0 and 2.1. 00:36:47.200 --> 00:36:50.880 So if you have an organization that moves slowly. 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:51.420 Right. 00:36:51.420 --> 00:36:54.280 So you'll be forced to upgrade on 2.0. 00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:54.700 Yeah. 00:36:55.020 --> 00:36:55.280 Yeah. 00:36:55.280 --> 00:37:01.380 If you have an organization that moves slowly, sticking with the long-term support version, it can be a really good thing. 00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:04.440 And at NASA, we are always long-term support. 00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:06.540 So that's why to stay on 1.11. 00:37:06.540 --> 00:37:10.320 Are there companies that have like LTS only sort of guidelines? 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:13.020 Like do not use a version of Linux that's not LTS? 00:37:13.020 --> 00:37:18.040 Do not use these packages that are shorter term and like always just stay on the LTS version? 00:37:18.040 --> 00:37:19.460 Or is it just a culture thing? 00:37:19.600 --> 00:37:22.400 I don't know if they have formal policies or not. 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.920 I know at NASA, we didn't have a formal one or at our center. 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:35.120 And it might have changed there because with the, you know, advance and DevOps and deploying stuff to the cloud, things are easier, at least at NASA. 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:49.760 But I know that there are certainly organizations that we've dealt with where because they know, you know, the engineers and developers know that upgrades just take a long time to implement like a major upgrade. 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:55.080 They rather stay on an LTS and then get the minor patch updates. 00:37:55.080 --> 00:38:09.900 It's why Red Hat and other organizations do long-term support releases is just because the larger a group gets or the less funding it has for a project, the more likely it is to stay on a particular version of a project. 00:38:09.900 --> 00:38:11.100 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 00:38:11.100 --> 00:38:15.820 So would you recommend that people maybe start on Django 1.11? 00:38:15.820 --> 00:38:19.160 Or is it if you're starting a new project, it's 2.0 for sure? 00:38:19.160 --> 00:38:29.080 I say that 95% of people should be starting on the most recent version of Django, for which our book still certainly absolutely applies. 00:38:29.080 --> 00:38:38.400 And then, you know, upgrade as soon as, maybe not as soon as the next version of Django comes out, but like the first patch release, right? 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.680 Because that's when all the secondary packages and projects update. 00:38:42.680 --> 00:38:45.320 It's just like that with Python, right? 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:57.700 Like as much as I can't wait till 3.7 comes out for Python, I'm going to probably wait a little bit before start coding in it because I know that there are packages that I use that won't be supported yet. 00:38:57.700 --> 00:39:03.420 As much as I like to be on the bleeding edge of things, I don't have that luxury. 00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:08.180 You also don't want to wake up in the middle of the night because it's leaking memory or some weird thing like that, right? 00:39:09.100 --> 00:39:09.500 Yeah. 00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:16.960 So if you look at the dates, like Django 1.11 is scheduled to be supported till April 2020. 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:20.420 Django 2.1 is till December 2019. 00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:23.820 So that's like right on the cusp of the Python 2 cutoff anyway. 00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:26.540 So there's not a huge difference like currently. 00:39:26.540 --> 00:39:27.020 No. 00:39:27.020 --> 00:39:28.460 At four months, right? 00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:32.660 So that's not, I don't know, if I was starting on new, I would definitely go for the 2.01. 00:39:32.660 --> 00:39:33.920 But yeah, it's just me, I guess. 00:39:34.020 --> 00:39:35.880 I always try to do the latest and greatest. 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:36.180 Yeah. 00:39:36.180 --> 00:39:45.900 So another recommendation you have is like, you probably shouldn't move to 2 if you can't run on Python 3, which is obviously like, it's not, you shouldn't. 00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:49.800 You cannot move to 2 if you cannot run on Python 3, right? 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:49.860 Yeah. 00:39:49.860 --> 00:39:55.120 So in fact, I really try not to make fun of, you know, other software developers. 00:39:55.120 --> 00:39:56.880 We have a challenging job. 00:39:57.060 --> 00:40:03.860 But sometimes on some of my projects, open source projects like cookie cutter Django, someone will say, hey, it's not working. 00:40:03.860 --> 00:40:08.660 And then they show the stack trace and it's clear they're running 2.7. 00:40:08.660 --> 00:40:13.860 And it's like, well, you're running Django 2.0 with Python 2.7. 00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:14.900 It's just going to break. 00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:16.260 Not intended to work that way. 00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:17.920 But we all make mistakes like that. 00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:20.640 So it's, you know, like I said, I shouldn't make fun of people. 00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:28.620 Well, I think part of it is like, we need a little bit more help from the operating system folks to make this a little bit smoother, right? 00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:33.460 Like on my Mac, if I'm just a person, I know I want Django and I know Django uses Python. 00:40:33.460 --> 00:40:36.620 I type Python and that comes up with a program that does a thing. 00:40:36.620 --> 00:40:43.340 Like I might try to type pip install Django and just run it, right? 00:40:43.340 --> 00:40:46.880 Like there's nothing along that path that's like a big warning slide. 00:40:46.980 --> 00:40:53.880 Like you're set up for failure, but if you don't know, oh, there's this thing where there's a Python 2 and a 3. 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:54.740 They're incompatible. 00:40:54.740 --> 00:40:57.440 You don't have 3 by default, right? 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:03.440 I mean, Linux is starting to fix the problem because they're starting to default to Python 3. 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:07.160 Windows ironically fixed it by not supporting it at all. 00:41:07.160 --> 00:41:08.340 So you have to go seek it out. 00:41:08.340 --> 00:41:10.040 Why would you seek out the old one? 00:41:10.040 --> 00:41:12.140 I actually think that's kind of a good thing. 00:41:12.140 --> 00:41:12.400 Yeah. 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:14.400 And then Mac comes with just the old one. 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:15.620 What do you think about all that? 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:21.640 Like I said, I kind of, I mean, I know with a POSIX operating system, there is no choice. 00:41:21.640 --> 00:41:24.420 I think they do need system Python just to run. 00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:27.200 Operating system experts can correct me there. 00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:32.320 So I don't think taking Python out of OS X or Linux is a solution. 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:38.040 But in some ways I am envious of the Linux world or not the Linux, the Windows world where 00:41:38.040 --> 00:41:41.300 to run Python, you have to install fresh installation. 00:41:42.300 --> 00:41:50.320 And, you know, maybe the answer is with some of these projects of complexity, such as Pandas 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:56.320 or Django or whatever is, you know, maybe we could put in something saying, oh, you're running 00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:57.140 the system Python. 00:41:57.140 --> 00:41:58.520 We're not going to let you do that. 00:41:58.520 --> 00:42:01.040 You have to go and install a new version of Python. 00:42:01.420 --> 00:42:04.420 And I don't know how realistic that is. 00:42:04.420 --> 00:42:07.580 I'm just not, I just don't know enough on the subject. 00:42:07.580 --> 00:42:14.640 But having seen beginners stumble through that again and again in the Python world, I definitely 00:42:14.640 --> 00:42:15.320 hear that. 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:21.480 That would be kind of ideal if we forced people to install an external version of the language. 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:21.920 Right. 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:29.020 Or I understand the system needs it, but does it have to default to Python? 00:42:29.020 --> 00:42:34.380 Could it be Python 2 is the thing that is Python 2 and Python is Python 3, right? 00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:39.160 Like it, I feel like they could somehow patch that up and kind of make things more or less 00:42:39.160 --> 00:42:39.660 hang together. 00:42:39.660 --> 00:42:40.800 Probably would take some work. 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:45.180 My reading is it's probably just not a priority, at least in the macOS world. 00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:49.060 In the operating system world, I just don't see them making it a priority. 00:42:49.060 --> 00:42:54.860 They've got other things on their plate, either for financial reasons or bandwidth reasons. 00:42:54.860 --> 00:43:01.860 But I wonder, you know, is it possible when you run a library like Pandas, for example, can 00:43:01.860 --> 00:43:04.500 we detect whether or not you're running the system Python? 00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:10.900 And if so, throwing that flag down saying, hey, you need to go to python.org or install 00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:17.080 Wakanda rather than forcing people to learn the hard way that screwing their system Python 00:43:17.080 --> 00:43:18.540 is going to be really painful. 00:43:18.540 --> 00:43:18.880 Yeah. 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:23.720 I mean, probably the error you get the vast majority of the time is like this particular 00:43:23.720 --> 00:43:27.760 method or this attribute, like an attribute error or something to that effect or an import 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:28.080 error. 00:43:28.080 --> 00:43:29.520 And that means nothing to people. 00:43:29.520 --> 00:43:30.520 It's just like, oh, it's broken. 00:43:30.520 --> 00:43:31.000 Right. 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:33.460 But if you got a wrong version of Python error. 00:43:33.460 --> 00:43:33.980 Exactly. 00:43:33.980 --> 00:43:38.120 That actually would go a long ways towards, oh, I have the wrong version of Python. 00:43:38.120 --> 00:43:39.260 Not like, oh, it's broken. 00:43:39.260 --> 00:43:40.280 It just doesn't work. 00:43:40.520 --> 00:43:40.740 Wow. 00:43:40.740 --> 00:43:43.260 That's a really awesome idea, Mike. 00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:46.040 I wonder what we can do with it going forward. 00:43:46.040 --> 00:43:48.620 It's not hard. 00:43:48.620 --> 00:43:49.500 Right. 00:43:49.500 --> 00:43:51.280 Just check system version. 00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:51.560 Right. 00:43:51.560 --> 00:43:55.180 But it's it's seems like just a little bit of communication. 00:43:55.180 --> 00:43:57.260 But yeah, I I hear the problem. 00:43:57.260 --> 00:44:01.760 I would prefer that the operating systems come with modern Python if they're going to have 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:01.920 it. 00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.840 But who knows what what could we do? 00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:09.320 This portion of Talk Python To Me is brought to you by ActiveState. 00:44:09.680 --> 00:44:14.100 ActiveState gives you a faster way to build and secure open source runtimes from your first 00:44:14.100 --> 00:44:15.300 line of code through to production. 00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:19.500 Every second you spend building your Python distro or trying to secure your Python programs 00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:22.060 is less time spent doing the work you love. 00:44:22.060 --> 00:44:25.740 You've got better things to do than trying to resolve dependencies or making sure that you 00:44:25.740 --> 00:44:28.300 tick off all security boxes when you ship to production. 00:44:28.300 --> 00:44:33.240 Standardize on your Python builds so you can have less friction in the development cycle and 00:44:33.240 --> 00:44:34.660 you can deliver apps faster. 00:44:34.660 --> 00:44:39.120 You can also get a unique server side way to verify your Python 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their booth and ask them about it. 00:45:18.040 --> 00:45:19.180 They'd love to tell you about it. 00:45:19.180 --> 00:45:19.680 All right. 00:45:19.680 --> 00:45:20.740 Hope you enjoy this episode. 00:45:20.740 --> 00:45:25.080 And if you didn't make it to PyCon this year, you owe it to yourself to do it next time. 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:27.500 All right. 00:45:27.500 --> 00:45:32.220 So generally, you're thinking the advice is, unless you have some kind of major blocker, 00:45:32.220 --> 00:45:35.400 one of these edge cases we talked about, it's all about Django too. 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:36.840 It's all about Django too. 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:38.280 Always go forward. 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:44.300 Is there more to it than pip install dash capital U Django to upgrading? 00:45:44.300 --> 00:45:47.600 Or do I need to change configuration files or anything like that? 00:45:47.600 --> 00:45:49.820 In a perfect world, it's really easy. 00:45:49.820 --> 00:45:54.240 You just do pip install dash U Django, then run your tasks and deploy. 00:45:54.660 --> 00:46:01.060 But the Django world has a large and comprehensive ecosystem of packages and products. 00:46:01.060 --> 00:46:06.060 You know, Audrey and I had a part in building and maintaining it for a long time. 00:46:06.060 --> 00:46:08.360 We've stepped away in the past, I guess, two years. 00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:13.600 So sometimes your auxiliary packages don't work. 00:46:13.600 --> 00:46:17.060 And this is why it's so critical to have tests. 00:46:17.060 --> 00:46:19.300 Because, I mean, you know the drill. 00:46:19.300 --> 00:46:22.600 You update a package and then you run your tasks. 00:46:22.600 --> 00:46:29.200 And if something breaks, then you see if it's something in your code that's breaking or if it's something in a third-party package. 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:32.060 And then in which case, maybe you need to update that. 00:46:32.060 --> 00:46:39.900 And tools like pyup.io, which is created and maintained by my good friend, Jan Eskabauer, that certainly makes it easier. 00:46:39.900 --> 00:46:42.160 But you still have to run those tasks. 00:46:42.160 --> 00:46:46.020 And this is, you know, my favorite reason to include tests. 00:46:46.020 --> 00:46:52.640 It's less to find bugs and more to make upgrades for versions of Python and Django and other tools easier. 00:46:52.640 --> 00:46:55.900 It's more the smoke test rather than the nuanced unit test, right? 00:46:55.900 --> 00:46:57.620 Like, does it generally hang together? 00:46:57.620 --> 00:46:58.360 Exactly. 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:04.780 So fortunately, what I found is upgrading from 1.11 to 2.0 is pretty easy. 00:47:04.780 --> 00:47:16.080 There is none of the, from 1.10 to 1.11, I think it was, the way that Django handled cross-site request forgeries was changed. 00:47:16.080 --> 00:47:32.620 And if you had a busy, you know, very, very busy project with millions of users, if you deployed it and all of a sudden for a few minutes, everybody's forms stopped validating, that made upgrades or upgrading from 1.10 to 1.11 challenging. 00:47:32.620 --> 00:47:38.860 But fortunately, with going to 1.11 to 2.0, for us, it's been really trivial. 00:47:38.860 --> 00:47:40.840 It's been really sweet and easy. 00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:54.760 So I think that was kind of intentional when they went from 1.11 to 2.0 and the big change being the version of Python or that it doesn't support 2.7 is just to keep that advance easier. 00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:56.620 Yeah, it's clever to make that there. 00:47:56.620 --> 00:48:01.880 So that sort of decision to say the way people perceive it, the change is going to be actually really small. 00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:07.760 So encouraging people to get on that new track that's Python 3.0 only is really not scary. 00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:12.980 It's not like, oh, we've changed some settings, config format or something, and you've got to make sure you change that, too. 00:48:12.980 --> 00:48:14.840 For us, at least, it's been very easy. 00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:19.520 And this doesn't just apply to Django with Pandas or other tools. 00:48:19.520 --> 00:48:29.680 This is one that, like I said, is a great justification for having tests is that it makes these upgrades easier, especially as we move to the Python 3.0 only world of the future. 00:48:29.680 --> 00:48:39.300 Yeah, just create a new virtual environment, check it out again somewhere else, do the upgrade, run the requirements, do the upgrade, run your tests. 00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:41.020 If that works, you're probably good, right? 00:48:41.020 --> 00:48:44.040 You don't have to break what you have sitting on your main desk, right? 00:48:44.040 --> 00:48:44.560 Absolutely. 00:48:44.560 --> 00:48:44.980 Nice. 00:48:44.980 --> 00:48:46.420 So what's the future, Django? 00:48:46.420 --> 00:48:50.460 I'm not a core developer, so people often think that I am. 00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:53.700 So I don't really know too much about what's coming. 00:48:53.700 --> 00:49:00.900 When I have looked at the roadmap, there hasn't been anything super concrete that's changing. 00:49:00.900 --> 00:49:08.840 But again, I'm not really in the loop, and I don't go to that many Django-specific conferences, so I just don't know. 00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:12.820 There are some things that I would love to see, though. 00:49:12.820 --> 00:49:15.660 Deployment is still kind of a pain. 00:49:15.660 --> 00:49:26.900 I know there's services like Python Anywhere and Heroku and now Zappa that make it easier, but I've always wondered if there's a way to make those hooks a little bit better and easier. 00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:34.040 And also, we're in a world of data science, and for better or for worse. 00:49:34.040 --> 00:49:42.220 And having Django integrate better with those tools, I think, is something we're going to see more of in the future. 00:49:42.620 --> 00:50:00.280 There aren't that many huge and easy to lose, not huge, I guess that's the wrong term, but comprehensive libraries with good documentation on how to integrate, pulling data out of a server, running it through Pandas or PyTorch or whatever, and then displaying that with Django. 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:09.180 There's the odd blog post or Stack Overflow answer, but I'm guessing in this year we're going to see that start to change. 00:50:09.600 --> 00:50:14.620 Because part of data science is displaying your data, displaying the results. 00:50:14.620 --> 00:50:18.000 And you can crunch numbers all you want. 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:18.940 You can data wrangle. 00:50:18.940 --> 00:50:20.040 You can do all that stuff. 00:50:20.040 --> 00:50:29.280 But if you don't display your data, especially with a large project that needs to be able to do this for its end users, who's your customer? 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.200 The sales team? 00:50:30.200 --> 00:50:31.740 That may not be enough for you. 00:50:31.740 --> 00:50:32.120 For sure. 00:50:32.120 --> 00:50:38.340 And we've got things like Jupyter, JupyterLab, and there's a whole explosion of notebook solutions. 00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:47.020 But in the end, maybe you want to show it, like you said, not publish a paper of data to your sales team, but give them dashboards within the app and things like that. 00:50:47.020 --> 00:50:47.460 Yeah. 00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:55.280 And not to bring up politics, but I don't know too much about the whole thing with Cambridge Analytica. 00:50:55.280 --> 00:51:01.020 But from what I'm gathering, part of what they were giving were reports to end users. 00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:15.360 And, you know, while that might have been done for the wrong cause and the wrong purpose, there's a sales opportunity for you, which is for consultants or companies around the world, which is you have this framework, Django. 00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:26.320 You have all these machine learning and data science tools that are accessible via Python, providing a means for publishing that data is part and parcel in what we do as engineers. 00:51:26.660 --> 00:51:27.060 Yeah, for sure. 00:51:27.060 --> 00:51:29.360 And making that easier and beautiful, that'd be awesome. 00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.340 All right. 00:51:30.340 --> 00:51:36.320 Well, let's go ahead and actually have one more question before we drop off, Django, that I wanted to, I threw here at the end, I want to ask you. 00:51:36.720 --> 00:51:49.900 So one of the really powerful things that we have in Python 3 these days, and it started 3.4, 3.5, but really came into its own in 3.5 with async and away is the whole asynchronous programming model. 00:51:49.900 --> 00:51:56.680 And that's like largely missing from the main web frameworks, right? 00:51:56.680 --> 00:52:04.280 Like, just you can't throw an async Jenga view up there or an async flask view or an async pyramid view or whatever, right? 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:06.540 And a wait on various things. 00:52:06.540 --> 00:52:08.560 Do you see stuff like that coming? 00:52:08.560 --> 00:52:09.520 Do you think it's important? 00:52:09.520 --> 00:52:11.440 I think it's critically important. 00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:25.980 One of the things is when you play with a language like modern Python outside of the web or with Go or with JavaScript is async is just getting easier and easier to implement. 00:52:25.980 --> 00:52:27.420 It's more straightforward. 00:52:28.020 --> 00:52:37.660 And the issue, though, with Python web frameworks is that this is a very hard problem, be it Django, Flask, Pyramid, or whatever. 00:52:37.660 --> 00:52:38.760 They're all based on a WSGI. 00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:40.160 They're all based on WSGI. 00:52:40.160 --> 00:52:45.020 And WSGI follows a very precise request and response cycle. 00:52:45.020 --> 00:52:56.720 And while Andrew Godwin has been working on channels for Django, which provides an asynchronous system and it's powered by asyncio under the hood. 00:52:56.720 --> 00:53:00.260 But they're all these like we have Quart for Flask, which is really nice. 00:53:00.260 --> 00:53:03.300 But they're all like, we're going to take this and make a copy of it. 00:53:03.300 --> 00:53:07.020 And it'll be really, really close to the thing that you want to have. 00:53:07.020 --> 00:53:07.480 Right. 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:08.720 Django, Flask, whatever. 00:53:08.720 --> 00:53:09.340 Right. 00:53:09.340 --> 00:53:13.880 But it's just they have not made their way into these major, the actual official major frameworks. 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:24.440 I think that Django is too resistant to breaking backwards compatibility that I don't see it happening in the next couple of years, which I think is kind of a shame. 00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:30.260 You know, I think Andrew Godwin should just be committing right to core, right to the master branch. 00:53:30.260 --> 00:53:31.300 Yeah. 00:53:31.300 --> 00:53:32.640 The stuff he's doing is awesome. 00:53:32.640 --> 00:53:36.400 I had him on the show quite a while ago and people can go back and listen to the whole episode on that. 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:36.820 Yeah. 00:53:37.100 --> 00:53:41.660 I think Flask's API is pretty stable, but there are async clones for Flask. 00:53:41.660 --> 00:53:42.980 I think there's Sanek. 00:53:42.980 --> 00:53:44.740 There's API star. 00:53:44.740 --> 00:53:46.240 There's a bunch of these things. 00:53:46.240 --> 00:53:52.120 But even though these things exist, deployment isn't really that straightforward. 00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:58.720 I know that you can deploy a channels application on Heroku and I'm pretty sure you can probably do it on Python anywhere. 00:53:58.720 --> 00:54:01.140 But it's not the default operation. 00:54:01.140 --> 00:54:04.880 It's not for people who are just new to the system. 00:54:04.880 --> 00:54:06.220 It's an advanced topic. 00:54:06.560 --> 00:54:11.700 And I think that's a shame because the way of the world is async, right? 00:54:11.700 --> 00:54:12.640 That's the trend. 00:54:12.640 --> 00:54:14.080 And it's not a trend. 00:54:14.080 --> 00:54:15.560 It's the way things are going. 00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:22.040 Now, Andrew Godwin has his own specification that he wrote or actually created. 00:54:22.040 --> 00:54:27.520 It's not his specification called ASCII, which is asynchronous service gateway interface. 00:54:27.520 --> 00:54:38.020 But until I think we have a long way, I think WSGI is so entrenched in our Python world that it's really hard to break out. 00:54:38.020 --> 00:54:39.820 And I think it's a shame. 00:54:39.820 --> 00:54:45.780 And I think if someone came up with a business model to get around that, they would make a lot of money. 00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:48.300 I know I would use that system in a heartbeat. 00:54:48.300 --> 00:55:06.140 As much as I like using EC2 and playing around Zap on Lambda to be able to do asynchronous easily with easy deployments without having to stand up my own server or use a platform as a service system that's super integrated in itself. 00:55:06.140 --> 00:55:08.140 For me, that would be awesome. 00:55:08.140 --> 00:55:09.860 I'd love to see something like that. 00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:13.140 But I think that's not going to happen for several years. 00:55:13.140 --> 00:55:13.680 Yeah. 00:55:13.780 --> 00:55:17.460 It's kind of a bit of a chicken and egg kind of blockade thing. 00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:18.660 But it'll break free. 00:55:18.660 --> 00:55:19.680 It'll come out. 00:55:19.680 --> 00:55:21.360 It just sooner would be better. 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:27.560 Every time I hear somebody say, oh, we're switching to go for because the performance is better async and whatever. 00:55:27.700 --> 00:55:30.940 Part of the problem is somewhat self-inflicted. 00:55:30.940 --> 00:55:41.400 And it could easily be fixed with just a slight, like basically a one function called deep, deep down from process request or whatever it's called to like process async request. 00:55:41.400 --> 00:55:43.740 And it like kind of cracks loose, you know. 00:55:43.740 --> 00:55:44.840 But yeah. 00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:45.060 Okay. 00:55:45.060 --> 00:55:49.460 Someday we can look forward to the future with async methods and all the major frameworks. 00:55:49.460 --> 00:55:49.820 Yeah. 00:55:49.820 --> 00:55:50.720 I can't wait. 00:55:50.720 --> 00:55:52.380 These creative and powerful. 00:55:52.380 --> 00:55:52.920 Yeah. 00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:53.860 Knockoffs. 00:55:53.860 --> 00:55:55.720 But let's bring those back in. 00:55:55.720 --> 00:55:56.120 Right. 00:55:56.120 --> 00:55:56.580 Nice. 00:55:56.580 --> 00:55:56.780 Okay. 00:55:56.780 --> 00:55:57.920 Well, let's touch really. 00:55:57.920 --> 00:55:59.100 We're getting low on time. 00:55:59.100 --> 00:56:01.720 But maybe just tell us a little bit about your Django book. 00:56:01.720 --> 00:56:03.980 It's been one of the more popular ones. 00:56:03.980 --> 00:56:05.620 So you have two scoops of Django, right? 00:56:05.620 --> 00:56:06.000 Yeah. 00:56:06.000 --> 00:56:07.060 Two scoops of Django. 00:56:07.060 --> 00:56:09.800 And it's been out since 2013. 00:56:09.800 --> 00:56:13.360 We're on the fourth edition, which is kind of awesome. 00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:22.160 If we do another version, we won't release it until next year, which is when the next time a long-term support version of Django is released. 00:56:22.160 --> 00:56:24.400 And if we do it, we'll make. 00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:26.060 You're going to call it two scoops of Django 2? 00:56:26.060 --> 00:56:26.760 2.2. 00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:29.660 It'll be two scoops of Django 2.2 if we do it. 00:56:29.660 --> 00:56:32.580 And because it's so much work to do. 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:35.800 If you want to inflict pain on an enemy, get them to write a book. 00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:41.620 And if we do it, we're planning some substantial changes. 00:56:41.620 --> 00:56:48.360 Like we'd probably have much more, touch a lot more on asynchronous stuff, especially with Python 3. 00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:52.480 And we'll get to get rid of all of the Python 2 stuff, which will be awesome. 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:52.940 Yeah, yeah. 00:56:52.940 --> 00:56:53.460 That's really cool. 00:56:53.460 --> 00:56:55.640 So what are some of the core principles from your book? 00:56:55.640 --> 00:56:58.120 With two scoops of Django, it's a big book. 00:56:58.120 --> 00:56:59.520 It's 550 pages. 00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:03.580 But you can boil it down to you want to embrace best practices. 00:57:03.580 --> 00:57:14.700 Pet bait, good import policies, having tasks, be aware of security, understand your tools, and try to keep your implementation of everything as simple as possible. 00:57:15.080 --> 00:57:22.220 Because your business logic, no matter what your project is, is never going to be as simple as you think it's going to be. 00:57:22.220 --> 00:57:28.160 The other thing that we did that really helped with it was have a lot of fun examples. 00:57:28.520 --> 00:57:30.340 I mean, that's the theme, ice cream, right? 00:57:30.340 --> 00:57:32.680 Audrey insisted on that. 00:57:32.680 --> 00:57:35.680 And she did the illustrations. 00:57:35.680 --> 00:57:40.280 And while she was also doing the illustrations, I need to point out, she wrote more of the book than I did. 00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:45.000 So I'm the loud one on social media, but she's the more productive one. 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.820 You don't go to MIT and not know how to write about Python and Django. 00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:52.680 And of course, there's the ice cream theme. 00:57:52.680 --> 00:57:55.080 And that ties into the fun examples. 00:57:55.080 --> 00:57:56.640 A lot of programming books. 00:57:56.640 --> 00:57:59.840 We've seen a lot of changes since the release of our book. 00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:04.120 And other books like, you know, Land of Lisp, they've gotten more colorful. 00:58:04.120 --> 00:58:10.120 But when we first came out, we were like a fresh rock being dropped into the pond. 00:58:10.120 --> 00:58:11.680 It was kind of awesome at the time. 00:58:11.680 --> 00:58:14.380 And now we're not so significant, which is kind of sad. 00:58:14.500 --> 00:58:16.600 A fresh replacement for a few and a bar. 00:58:16.600 --> 00:58:17.380 Or a spam. 00:58:17.380 --> 00:58:18.220 I love spam. 00:58:18.220 --> 00:58:20.800 But yeah, that had gotten very old. 00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:21.440 That's for sure. 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:22.560 All right, cool. 00:58:22.560 --> 00:58:24.080 So definitely recommend your book. 00:58:24.080 --> 00:58:24.920 It's a good one. 00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:29.640 I guess one final thing I want to ask you about, because we were talking before we hit record. 00:58:29.640 --> 00:58:32.840 You have some good advice for folks is PyCon is coming up. 00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:35.600 This episode, I don't remember how the timing is going to line up. 00:58:35.600 --> 00:58:37.780 This is going to be like right around PyCon. 00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:40.540 It may be the week of PyCon that this comes out. 00:58:40.540 --> 00:58:43.540 So what's your advice for people getting the most out of that conference? 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:48.100 My advice to PyCon is, first of all, you should go if you can. 00:58:48.100 --> 00:58:54.460 And if you can't go to the one in the U.S. or North America, you should go to your local regional one. 00:58:54.460 --> 00:58:58.240 And then if you go, don't hang out with your friends. 00:58:58.240 --> 00:59:00.060 Make new friends. 00:59:00.060 --> 00:59:02.140 You are there to broaden your horizons. 00:59:02.140 --> 00:59:04.620 And hanging out with your friends, I know it's easy. 00:59:04.620 --> 00:59:06.020 And I know you're nervous. 00:59:06.020 --> 00:59:07.060 I know you're scared. 00:59:07.060 --> 00:59:10.360 But by making new friends, you're going to broaden your horizons. 00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:11.800 You're going to learn new ideas. 00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:13.560 You're going to make new connections. 00:59:13.560 --> 00:59:16.240 And that is why you are there. 00:59:16.240 --> 00:59:20.760 And while you're doing that, don't show off how much you know. 00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:23.380 Instead, ask questions. 00:59:23.380 --> 00:59:39.360 And yeah, if someone starts to explain something that's super trivial and obvious to you, maybe you've got a PhD in a particular field and it's on your label and someone starts to explain it to you, then yeah, you can start showing off how much you know. 00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:42.040 But really try to focus on asking questions. 00:59:42.040 --> 00:59:46.740 Because you're there to learn, not to show off what you know. 00:59:46.940 --> 00:59:57.920 And I know as someone who has gone to conferences and hire people, I'd rather hire someone who is eager to learn and find out new things than a know-it-all. 00:59:57.980 --> 00:59:58.980 I definitely second that. 00:59:58.980 --> 00:59:59.560 Yeah, for sure. 00:59:59.560 --> 01:00:06.440 And then if you have been to a conference before or if it's your first one, volunteer to help in a session. 01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:09.160 If there's a volunteer process, get involved. 01:00:09.640 --> 01:00:13.140 And again, the reason is you're there to make connections. 01:00:13.140 --> 01:00:17.680 You never know who is going to be there helping out with you. 01:00:17.680 --> 01:00:26.740 I've certainly made some life-changing differences in my career by volunteering and just happening to meet that right person. 01:00:26.740 --> 01:00:29.580 And so that's really important. 01:00:29.580 --> 01:00:33.600 But overall, just try to break free of the patterns that you have. 01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:38.220 And if you're worried about looking like an idiot, don't. 01:00:38.220 --> 01:00:39.780 Because people will forget you. 01:00:39.780 --> 01:00:46.920 If you do something that's embarrassing and you think it's embarrassing, but most people won't really care. 01:00:46.920 --> 01:00:47.780 They'll be like, oh, whatever. 01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:50.940 It's just another overeager conference goer. 01:00:51.380 --> 01:00:56.320 I know I've done some things that are really embarrassing and no one remembers but me. 01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:58.120 Like, I can assure you that. 01:00:58.120 --> 01:01:00.360 And I'm not talking about offensive things. 01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:01.320 Like, don't be offensive. 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:11.480 But if you happen to start explaining to this middle-aged guy, you know, that Python 3 is going to be taking over on January 1. 01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:14.040 And then someone points out to you that's Guido Van Rossum. 01:01:14.040 --> 01:01:16.480 You know, he's not going to remember that. 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:20.240 In fact, he would probably appreciate somebody coming up and saying that to him. 01:01:20.660 --> 01:01:21.280 Yeah, you're not. 01:01:21.280 --> 01:01:22.460 It's going to be okay. 01:01:22.460 --> 01:01:27.560 Just break free of your normal habits and broaden your horizons. 01:01:27.560 --> 01:01:28.100 Good advice. 01:01:28.100 --> 01:01:37.880 One thing about PyCon, at least PyCon US, because it's so large, that there's an opportunity to tie all three of those suggestions up into one quick and easy thing. 01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:40.600 A lot of conferences have people on the stage. 01:01:40.600 --> 01:01:42.080 There's one track or something. 01:01:42.080 --> 01:01:43.960 There they have the open sessions. 01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:49.380 And so you can volunteer by proposing and kicking off an open session. 01:01:49.940 --> 01:01:51.440 Your friends may not come. 01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:54.380 And you have to ask questions because there's no presenter. 01:01:54.380 --> 01:01:56.800 So it's all about sitting there and having a conversation. 01:01:56.800 --> 01:02:00.840 So I definitely recommend people embrace the open session side of things. 01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:02.920 Open space, whatever they call it officially. 01:02:02.920 --> 01:02:05.200 Because that's something that's not recorded. 01:02:05.200 --> 01:02:07.220 It's only a live experience. 01:02:07.220 --> 01:02:08.220 And it gets you involved. 01:02:08.220 --> 01:02:08.740 Absolutely. 01:02:09.040 --> 01:02:09.320 Nice. 01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:09.880 All right. 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:12.320 Well, we're just about out of time. 01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:16.720 But before we call it a show, let's ask you the two questions. 01:02:16.720 --> 01:02:19.960 So if you're going to write some Python code, some Django code, what editor do you use? 01:02:20.380 --> 01:02:24.240 So I run and I have a 2011 MacBook Air. 01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:29.960 And so an IDE like PyCharm is just going to break it. 01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:32.620 It worked several years ago, but it's not going to work now. 01:02:33.220 --> 01:02:38.000 So I just use Atom because it runs and it runs fast these days. 01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:46.080 And also if I need to install it on a new machine, as much as I like Sublime, what I like about Atom is I can just install it and go. 01:02:46.220 --> 01:02:51.940 Because we have a couple test machines for Windows and other operating systems that I don't use that often. 01:02:51.940 --> 01:02:56.160 And I can just get Atom going in about 20 minutes. 01:02:56.160 --> 01:03:00.360 It's something that's always there and you don't have to change depending on where you are. 01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:01.120 That's pretty nice. 01:03:01.120 --> 01:03:05.380 And I don't need to learn arcane commands like with Vim or something else. 01:03:05.380 --> 01:03:05.900 Exactly. 01:03:05.900 --> 01:03:06.580 Exactly. 01:03:06.580 --> 01:03:07.340 I'm with you on that. 01:03:07.340 --> 01:03:09.780 So notable PyPI package? 01:03:09.780 --> 01:03:10.980 So I'm going to list two. 01:03:10.980 --> 01:03:12.140 I know we're short on time. 01:03:12.140 --> 01:03:16.240 The first one is Black, which is the uncompromising code formatter. 01:03:16.240 --> 01:03:18.200 And it's awesome. 01:03:18.200 --> 01:03:22.560 I'm replacing PyFlakes and all these other tools on my project with it. 01:03:22.560 --> 01:03:30.300 And the reason why is because I cannot keep, this is my dark secret, I cannot keep single quotes and double quotes from getting into my code. 01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:32.360 And Black just fixes all of that. 01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:33.880 And no one complains or yells at me. 01:03:33.880 --> 01:03:34.920 Oh, it fixes that. 01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:35.960 That's pretty interesting. 01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:36.800 Yeah. 01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:44.140 So we're trying to figure out on our projects how to get it to run and clean stuff up the way we want. 01:03:44.140 --> 01:03:46.160 But yeah, Black is awesome. 01:03:46.160 --> 01:03:48.700 And comes in any color you want, as long as it's black. 01:03:48.700 --> 01:03:49.280 Exactly. 01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:52.920 And the guy who founded it, Rikash Langa, he's a friend of mine. 01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:54.260 But that's not why I use it. 01:03:54.260 --> 01:03:55.280 Well, maybe a little bit. 01:03:55.280 --> 01:03:56.420 That's why I noticed it. 01:03:56.420 --> 01:03:58.020 But it's Black is awesome. 01:03:58.020 --> 01:03:58.580 Okay, cool. 01:03:58.580 --> 01:04:00.800 And then another one's close to home for you guys, right? 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:04.720 Yeah, that's Cookie Cutter because, well, packaging. 01:04:04.720 --> 01:04:07.420 And it's our most popular project. 01:04:07.420 --> 01:04:09.660 It's got over 7,000 GitHub stars. 01:04:09.660 --> 01:04:16.760 There's a lot of Fortune 500 companies who use it, which is kind of flattering in government organizations. 01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:22.180 Whenever I want to ego trip, I just go into GitHub and search for Cookie Cutter packages. 01:04:22.180 --> 01:04:23.760 Yeah, there's a bunch now. 01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:24.260 It's really cool. 01:04:24.260 --> 01:04:24.620 Yeah. 01:04:24.620 --> 01:04:25.660 Nice to see that doing well. 01:04:25.660 --> 01:04:25.980 Okay. 01:04:25.980 --> 01:04:26.400 Awesome. 01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.280 Yeah, I definitely recommend Cookie Cutter as well. 01:04:28.460 --> 01:04:33.780 A lot of the web frameworks are starting to adopt it as the way to scaffold up the apps as well. 01:04:33.780 --> 01:04:35.500 Pyramid went all in on that. 01:04:35.500 --> 01:04:36.340 I don't know about Django. 01:04:36.340 --> 01:04:37.700 They're not using it, are they? 01:04:37.700 --> 01:04:43.220 No, but there's a lot of templates for building Django projects that use Cookie Cutter. 01:04:43.220 --> 01:04:43.720 Right. 01:04:43.720 --> 01:04:49.640 There's independent templates that you can just, you know, Cookie Cutter or whatever the link is and create your Django project, right? 01:04:49.640 --> 01:04:50.140 Exactly. 01:04:50.140 --> 01:04:50.780 Yeah, nice. 01:04:50.780 --> 01:04:52.380 All right, final call to action. 01:04:52.380 --> 01:04:54.100 People are excited about Django 2. 01:04:54.100 --> 01:04:56.000 Dropping that Python 2 aspect. 01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:57.620 What do you recommend for them? 01:04:57.620 --> 01:04:58.280 Final call to action. 01:04:58.280 --> 01:05:08.300 Use Django 2.0, the most recent version of Django, if you can, and buy our book because even though it says 1.11 on the label, it still applies. 01:05:08.300 --> 01:05:08.780 That's awesome. 01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:10.680 And of course, your packaging course as well, right? 01:05:10.680 --> 01:05:11.140 Yes. 01:05:11.140 --> 01:05:13.480 It's available in both English and Spanish. 01:05:13.480 --> 01:05:20.520 Although we talked a lot about Django, the course itself doesn't mention or doesn't have anything to do with Django. 01:05:20.520 --> 01:05:25.140 It's Python specific or it's Django free, however you want to call it. 01:05:25.140 --> 01:05:25.320 Yeah. 01:05:25.320 --> 01:05:27.100 Perfect. 01:05:28.100 --> 01:05:28.320 Perfect. 01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:28.540 Perfect. 01:05:28.540 --> 01:05:30.500 So I'll put a link to all that stuff in the show notes. 01:05:30.500 --> 01:05:30.860 Okay. 01:05:30.860 --> 01:05:31.380 All right, Danny. 01:05:31.380 --> 01:05:32.360 Thank you so much for being on the show. 01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:34.820 It was great to chat with you and talk about the web. 01:05:34.820 --> 01:05:35.920 Thank you for having me. 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:36.280 Yeah. 01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:37.600 Past, present, and future. 01:05:37.600 --> 01:05:39.120 It's going to be a good ride, right? 01:05:39.120 --> 01:05:39.760 Absolutely. 01:05:39.760 --> 01:05:40.200 Yep. 01:05:40.200 --> 01:05:40.620 Talk to you later. 01:05:40.620 --> 01:05:40.820 Bye. 01:05:41.620 --> 01:05:44.200 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 01:05:44.200 --> 01:05:45.200 Today's guest. 01:05:45.200 --> 01:05:47.180 Today's guest has been Daniel Roy Greenfield. 01:05:47.180 --> 01:05:50.960 And this episode has been brought to you by MongoDB and Active State. 01:05:51.560 --> 01:05:54.420 Interested in seeing how web apps are built with Python and MongoDB? 01:05:54.420 --> 01:06:00.640 Register for my webinar I'm doing with MongoDB over at mongodb.com slash webinar slash Python. 01:06:00.640 --> 01:06:01.400 See you there. 01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:06.960 Active State gives you a faster way to build and secure open source runtimes. 01:06:07.140 --> 01:06:13.980 From your first line of code through to production, check it out at talkpython.fm/active state. 01:06:13.980 --> 01:06:15.560 Want to level up your Python? 01:06:15.560 --> 01:06:20.700 If you're just getting started, try my Python jumpstart by building 10 apps or our brand new 01:06:20.700 --> 01:06:22.560 100 days of code in Python. 01:06:22.560 --> 01:06:26.320 And if you're interested in more than one course, be sure to check out the everything bundle. 01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:28.620 It's like a subscription that never expires. 01:06:28.620 --> 01:06:30.820 Be sure to subscribe to the show. 01:06:30.820 --> 01:06:33.020 Open your favorite podcatcher and search for Python. 01:06:33.020 --> 01:06:34.260 We should be right at the top. 01:06:34.260 --> 01:06:39.640 You can also find the iTunes feed at /itunes, Google Play feed at /play, 01:06:39.640 --> 01:06:43.580 and direct RSS feed at /rss on talkpython.fm. 01:06:43.580 --> 01:06:45.440 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:46.800 Thanks so much for listening. 01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:47.880 I really appreciate it. 01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:49.800 Now get out there and write some Python code. 01:06:49.800 --> 01:07:10.420 I'll see you next time.