WEBVTT 00:00:00.001 --> 00:00:05.800 A strong community is one of Python's superpowers, and that's what this episode of Talk Python To Me is all about. 00:00:05.800 --> 00:00:09.480 It's PyLadies and Python Software Foundation with Lynn Root. 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.420 Episode number 15, recorded Thursday, June 6, 2015. 00:00:14.420 --> 00:00:43.460 Hello, and welcome to Talk Python To Me, 00:00:43.460 --> 00:00:48.360 a weekly podcast on Python, the language, the libraries, the ecosystem, and the personalities. 00:00:48.360 --> 00:00:50.340 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:52.840 Follow me on Twitter, where I'm @mkennedy, 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:57.760 and keep up with the show and listen to past episodes at talkpythontome.com. 00:00:57.760 --> 00:01:02.880 This episode, we'll be talking to Lynn Root about PyLadies, Python Software Foundation, 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:06.680 Python at Spotify, and the Python community at large. 00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:11.260 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00:01:47.180 --> 00:01:51.180 Thanks to everyone who backed my Talk Python To Me t-shirt Kickstarter. 00:01:51.180 --> 00:01:55.660 This week is the last week to join and get your shirt and promotional slot. 00:01:55.660 --> 00:01:58.940 Check it out at bit.ly slash python shirt. 00:01:58.940 --> 00:02:01.460 Now, let's get right on to the interview with Lynn. 00:02:02.360 --> 00:02:03.620 Let me introduce Lynn. 00:02:03.620 --> 00:02:07.600 Lynn Root is an insomniatic software engineer for Spotify, 00:02:07.600 --> 00:02:10.980 the founder of the San Francisco chapter of PyLadies, 00:02:10.980 --> 00:02:14.020 a board member of the Python Software Foundation, 00:02:14.020 --> 00:02:16.860 and a member of the Django Software Foundation. 00:02:16.860 --> 00:02:18.600 Lynn, welcome to the show. 00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:20.140 Oh, thank you so much. 00:02:20.140 --> 00:02:23.400 Yeah, we have a lot to talk about today, a bunch of different topics. 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:26.940 And, you know, I've read a little bit of what you've written online 00:02:26.940 --> 00:02:28.380 and checked out some of your talks. 00:02:28.380 --> 00:02:30.540 And you have a lot of interesting things going on. 00:02:30.540 --> 00:02:32.520 Yeah, I feel like I'm juggling a lot. 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:33.340 But thank you. 00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:36.420 Yeah, the context switching is hard sometimes, isn't it? 00:02:36.420 --> 00:02:37.800 It really is. 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:41.980 Yeah, but I think in the end, it's worth it to be part of a lot of exciting things. 00:02:41.980 --> 00:02:47.700 So let me be one of the first podcasts to say congratulations. 00:02:47.700 --> 00:02:51.260 I'm being reelected to the Python Software Foundation board. 00:02:51.260 --> 00:02:53.060 That happened just a couple days ago, right? 00:02:53.060 --> 00:02:53.920 Right, right. 00:02:53.920 --> 00:02:54.780 Thank you so much. 00:02:54.780 --> 00:02:55.080 Yeah. 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:56.960 Yeah, you must be excited. 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:58.420 How long have you been on the board? 00:02:58.920 --> 00:03:00.560 This will be my third year. 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.480 So I've been on for the previous two years. 00:03:02.480 --> 00:03:03.020 Okay. 00:03:03.020 --> 00:03:03.920 Oh, very cool. 00:03:03.920 --> 00:03:04.500 Very cool. 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:07.080 So I want to talk about that more. 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:08.840 But let's start at the beginning. 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:15.580 You've written a couple really cool articles about sort of your path into engineering 00:03:15.580 --> 00:03:17.880 and into programming and into Python. 00:03:18.880 --> 00:03:23.460 You know, you're doing a lot of work to help other people walk that path and take that journey 00:03:23.460 --> 00:03:24.200 in their own way. 00:03:24.200 --> 00:03:28.260 And I think it's really interesting to maybe cover some of that or talk a little bit about 00:03:28.260 --> 00:03:28.400 it. 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:30.440 Can you maybe tell us how you got here? 00:03:30.440 --> 00:03:31.920 Sure, certainly. 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.880 So yeah, I actually have a business degree. 00:03:35.880 --> 00:03:39.060 I went to Babson College in Massachusetts. 00:03:39.060 --> 00:03:42.460 And I graduated with like econ finance. 00:03:42.460 --> 00:03:48.000 But I don't know if you remember, but in like 2008, the economy kind of sucked. 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:50.660 And that's the year I graduated in. 00:03:50.660 --> 00:03:57.140 So it was really, really kind of difficult to get a decent job in finance. 00:03:57.140 --> 00:04:00.500 But in terms of decent like paying. 00:04:01.500 --> 00:04:07.880 So I actually I started working as an analyst for a small bank for a few years. 00:04:07.880 --> 00:04:15.620 The economy is still crappy, but I wanted to get my master's degree in financial engineering. 00:04:15.620 --> 00:04:23.960 And Berkeley here in California actually has a really good program, like a one year master's 00:04:23.960 --> 00:04:25.880 of engineering or financial engineering. 00:04:25.880 --> 00:04:29.940 And but in order to apply, you kind of had to like know how to code. 00:04:30.940 --> 00:04:38.340 And me being a sort of a fresh graduate and like thinking, oh, I could still like learn 00:04:38.340 --> 00:04:39.000 how to study. 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:39.580 Right. 00:04:39.580 --> 00:04:41.620 I just how hard can it be? 00:04:41.620 --> 00:04:42.000 Come on. 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:42.480 Right. 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:43.080 Yeah, exactly. 00:04:43.080 --> 00:04:50.840 I decided to enroll in like a Harvard's extension program, just like their intro to CS class. 00:04:50.840 --> 00:04:54.620 And so that was like the fall of 2011. 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:58.180 And let me tell you, C is really hard. 00:04:58.180 --> 00:04:59.260 And I really sucked. 00:04:59.900 --> 00:05:03.140 Like I failed like a lot, all the midterms. 00:05:03.140 --> 00:05:07.380 I was crying a lot during the weekly homeworks. 00:05:07.380 --> 00:05:10.900 And it was just it was really tough. 00:05:10.900 --> 00:05:13.140 Were you wondering what you had gotten yourself into? 00:05:13.140 --> 00:05:14.240 Yeah, seriously. 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:18.900 It was just like I literally just like was hoping to get a passing grade just to like get this 00:05:18.900 --> 00:05:19.760 over and done with. 00:05:20.840 --> 00:05:21.280 Yeah. 00:05:21.280 --> 00:05:21.320 Yeah. 00:05:21.320 --> 00:05:24.860 But like I couldn't who would subject themselves to this kind of thing. 00:05:24.860 --> 00:05:34.300 And but but oddly enough, towards the end of the semester, I saw some Python code and coming 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:36.040 from C to Python. 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:40.200 I was just like, wow, I like actually understand what's being written. 00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:41.420 I actually understand the logic. 00:05:41.420 --> 00:05:43.520 Like I can see what's going on here. 00:05:44.020 --> 00:05:49.520 So I actually decided to do my final project for the course in Python. 00:05:49.520 --> 00:05:54.560 I made a little Django website app that looking back now is really crappy code. 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:56.300 But it worked. 00:05:56.620 --> 00:06:02.900 And somehow I got like an A minus in the course, even though I failed both midterms. 00:06:02.900 --> 00:06:04.480 That's amazing. 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:07.000 The professor must have thought, well, she's come a long way. 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:07.780 Look what she built. 00:06:07.780 --> 00:06:10.780 You know, let's just forget about about those bad midterms. 00:06:10.780 --> 00:06:11.740 Right. 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:12.160 Exactly. 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:16.940 I wonder if they ever questioned like the legitimacy of that code. 00:06:16.940 --> 00:06:19.300 Like, how could she come from this to that kind of thing? 00:06:19.300 --> 00:06:22.400 But like I really wrote it like I also wrote that crappy code. 00:06:22.980 --> 00:06:28.940 But anyways, I found it a lot more satisfying to like stay up at like 3 a.m. 00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:34.860 trying to like debug like this Django app than like looking at Excel spreadsheets, 00:06:34.860 --> 00:06:37.420 you know, like eight hours a day, five days a week. 00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:46.320 So I basically decided that I wanted to continue to learn but not pay Harvard another $2,000 for a course. 00:06:46.320 --> 00:06:49.720 So at the time I was in San Francisco. 00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:51.500 I still am in San Francisco. 00:06:51.760 --> 00:06:57.760 But at the time I kind of approached Women Who Code, the local meetup group here, 00:06:57.760 --> 00:07:02.720 and see who else could like would be interested in learning Python with me. 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:10.080 So I started like a study group with other women and kind of led projects. 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:15.540 Basically, I would do the project the week before and then sort of present it and we'd work through it together. 00:07:16.140 --> 00:07:16.940 That's really cool. 00:07:16.940 --> 00:07:20.900 And I think I recall from your article, there were quite a few people there, right? 00:07:20.900 --> 00:07:22.440 It was like 40 women or something like that? 00:07:22.440 --> 00:07:23.400 Yeah, exactly. 00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:24.020 That's awesome. 00:07:24.020 --> 00:07:24.620 Yeah. 00:07:24.620 --> 00:07:29.800 To be honest, I don't know if they came for like the free food at Dropbox or if they really wanted to know Python. 00:07:30.260 --> 00:07:33.100 But it was awesome to see them there. 00:07:33.100 --> 00:07:40.880 And there's a lot of great interest in continuing on because I had only planned like eight weeks once a week. 00:07:41.880 --> 00:07:46.460 And so that actually turned into like two PyLadies of San Francisco. 00:07:46.460 --> 00:07:48.200 I sort of stole those women. 00:07:48.200 --> 00:07:54.400 Not really steal, but like they helped me build sort of PyLadies of San Francisco. 00:07:54.680 --> 00:08:00.880 From there, I was able to subject other people to wanting to learn how to code with me. 00:08:00.880 --> 00:08:03.700 And I guess the rest is history. 00:08:03.700 --> 00:08:07.020 I sort of just kind of started talking about what I was doing. 00:08:07.020 --> 00:08:14.880 Kind of from the point of view of me being sort of selfish and like wanting to learn how to code with others with me. 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:21.600 But it sort of morphed into like getting women involved in coding and me speaking about that. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.640 And that really helped me like land my first engineering job. 00:08:25.640 --> 00:08:26.400 That's really cool. 00:08:26.400 --> 00:08:29.360 You know, I do a lot of training for my job as well. 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:38.380 And I think this pressure to put together a presentation, to learn it well enough to like present it to others, is a super powerful way to learn for yourself, actually. 00:08:38.380 --> 00:08:39.200 Right. 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:39.480 Yeah. 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:42.740 You better have the answer to the questions that you don't even think of right now, right? 00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:43.420 Exactly. 00:08:43.420 --> 00:08:44.960 Yeah. 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:45.080 Yeah. 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:46.120 Yeah. 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:49.620 So you think that really helped you sort of gain the skills you needed? 00:08:49.620 --> 00:08:51.080 It definitely did. 00:08:51.080 --> 00:09:00.660 At least like helped me like understand what was going on rather than just copying, pasting code, which is like not a really good way to learn how to code. 00:09:00.660 --> 00:09:01.160 Sure. 00:09:01.160 --> 00:09:04.860 I think that happens more in this industry than people really want to admit, to be honest. 00:09:04.860 --> 00:09:05.920 I agree. 00:09:05.920 --> 00:09:11.460 I mean, I fully admit that there are some like Stack Overflow posts that I just copied and pasted. 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:14.500 And it just happened to work and went on from there. 00:09:14.580 --> 00:09:16.740 So yeah, I believe it happens a lot. 00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:17.980 Yeah, I think so. 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:37.500 CodeChip is a hosted continuous delivery service focused on speed, security, and customizability. 00:09:38.100 --> 00:09:43.340 You can set up continuous integration in a matter of seconds and automatically deploy when your tests have passed. 00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:46.580 CodeChip supports your GitHub and Bitbucket projects. 00:09:46.580 --> 00:09:49.360 You can get started with CodeChip's free plan today. 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:57.840 Should you decide to go with a premium plan, Talk Python listeners can save 20% off any plan for the next three months by using the code TALKPython. 00:09:58.260 --> 00:09:59.580 All caps, no spaces. 00:09:59.580 --> 00:10:06.940 Check them out at CodeChip.com and tell them thanks for sponsoring the show on Twitter where they're at CodeChip. 00:10:12.620 --> 00:10:16.020 When you're doing C++ or C, it was just really frustrating. 00:10:16.020 --> 00:10:20.060 And just the simplicity of Python really resonated, huh? 00:10:20.060 --> 00:10:21.020 Definitely. 00:10:21.020 --> 00:10:21.620 Yeah. 00:10:21.620 --> 00:10:28.420 It's just like, oh, I can actually understand that you're defining a function and trying to do it, like, mangle the data in this way and return this. 00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:39.460 Like, I actually got that in me to be able to, like, a couple months later, I sort of finally understood, like, inheritance when I was digging through, like, Django, like, source code. 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:48.400 And I was like, well, this actually makes sense to me than, like, programming, like, a Sudoku board in C where I just have no idea what I'm doing. 00:10:48.400 --> 00:10:49.180 Yeah. 00:10:49.180 --> 00:10:50.940 And pointers to pointers to a raise. 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:51.580 Like, yikes. 00:10:51.580 --> 00:10:52.600 Uh-huh. 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:53.160 Right. 00:10:53.160 --> 00:10:57.540 Let's maybe talk a little bit about PSF. 00:10:57.540 --> 00:10:58.400 Sure. 00:10:59.400 --> 00:11:03.580 I kind of know the mission statement of PSF. 00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:06.260 And I know that there's a board. 00:11:06.260 --> 00:11:15.060 But can you maybe tell all the listeners kind of what is the Python Software Foundation and what kinds of things do they do to help all of us? 00:11:15.060 --> 00:11:16.100 Sure. 00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:16.440 Yeah. 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:19.180 So this question happens a lot, actually. 00:11:19.180 --> 00:11:24.940 And maybe it's a telling sign that we need to do better PR about who we are. 00:11:24.940 --> 00:11:44.700 But the PSF, the legalese or, like, what we are about in formal sense is both protecting the trademark of the Python language and kind of, like, owning that and stuff like that, as well as furthering, like, the language of, like, becoming more widespread. 00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:47.100 And that's essentially what it boils down to. 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:55.760 And the PSF has, like, has the board with 11 directors and then has, like, a membership model. 00:11:55.760 --> 00:11:58.260 And there's a few different ways to be a member. 00:11:58.760 --> 00:12:10.480 But basically, the purpose of the PSF is to, like, make sure Python as a language can, like, remain a popular widely used language and kind of get it everywhere. 00:12:11.340 --> 00:12:19.060 And as a PSF board, we do a lot of both kind of just, like, answering simple questions, like, can I use Python here? 00:12:19.060 --> 00:12:20.700 Can I represent the logo here? 00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:21.980 Like, simple questions like that. 00:12:21.980 --> 00:12:25.740 We get a lot of, like, requests for, like, funding. 00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:34.820 Like, can you help with these, like, food costs for this, like, Python sprint or something like that. 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:46.420 We help a lot of workshops, especially, like, the, like, young coder workshops that Katie and Barbara have been doing since 2012, I guess. 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:59.180 And that is mostly based on, like, help getting, like, Raspberry Pis so that teenagers and young kids can, like, learn how to, like, program in Python and actually take home what they're doing. 00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:03.680 PSF sort of supports Python in that sort of way. 00:13:03.680 --> 00:13:09.540 And I guess that's as best off the top of my head of describing the PSF. 00:13:09.540 --> 00:13:09.940 Yeah. 00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:11.300 That's really cool. 00:13:11.300 --> 00:13:14.900 And I think it's just good to raise everyone's awareness about that. 00:13:14.900 --> 00:13:27.000 It's nice to have a single organization or group that is kind of can answer, like, public questions and make decisions and stuff like that around the publicity of Python and whatnot. 00:13:27.660 --> 00:13:32.100 I also heard that they were doing a lot to help promote the usage of Python 3. 00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:35.700 I feel like the PSF is usually, like, throwing, like, the money at it. 00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:41.040 Like, if someone requests, like, funding to help porting stuff, we're definitely 100% behind that. 00:13:41.040 --> 00:13:48.580 I feel like the louder voices of supporting Python 3 is more like Guido himself and some other core devs. 00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:53.520 We personally, the PSF doesn't really outwardly, like, back, like, public statements. 00:13:53.520 --> 00:14:04.200 But we're definitely, like, since, like, Python 3 is the future, we often get requests to help, like, funding, like, the porting of something from 2 to 3. 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:09.580 Like, a really, like, established, like, library, like, mailman or something like that. 00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:09.900 Right. 00:14:09.900 --> 00:14:12.740 Of course, I had Chris McDonough on the show. 00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:14.180 I think that was show 3. 00:14:14.180 --> 00:14:14.920 Mm-hmm. 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:18.720 And he talked about that story with Pyramid. 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:19.440 Oh, yeah. 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:20.920 The Pyramid web framework. 00:14:20.920 --> 00:14:21.540 Yeah. 00:14:21.880 --> 00:14:26.800 Apparently, he said, I'm dragging my feet on converting it to Python or, you know, supporting Python 3. 00:14:26.800 --> 00:14:30.940 And the PSF came along and helped out and said, can we give you a nudge to make you go do this? 00:14:30.940 --> 00:14:31.440 And he did. 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:32.000 Yeah. 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:33.800 That's awesome. 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:34.280 Yeah. 00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:35.040 That's really cool. 00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:35.800 That's really cool. 00:14:35.800 --> 00:14:39.660 So, as a board member, what do you do there? 00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:48.120 The board member, being a board member is, it varies on how much work you want to put in. 00:14:49.420 --> 00:14:55.040 And, like, we have monthly meetings or somewhat monthly meetings, regular meetings. 00:14:55.040 --> 00:15:01.320 And we vote on stuff like, should we give money to these people or those folks? 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:07.460 That's actually a lot of our conversation is deciding who to help out. 00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:11.560 As well as, like, let's see, like, sponsors. 00:15:11.560 --> 00:15:13.460 Like, who can we invite to be a sponsor? 00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:15.760 Who is applying to be a sponsor? 00:15:15.760 --> 00:15:17.580 Things like PyCon and so on? 00:15:18.140 --> 00:15:24.320 Well, so, that's actually, PyCon is, like, the only conference that is, like, directly supported by us. 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:33.340 But we just sort of have, like, a PyCon officer that's supposed to be, like, the liaison between the two, like, organizations. 00:15:33.340 --> 00:15:41.460 And we definitely, like, a lot of the money comes out of the PSF and the sponsors of both the PSF and PyCon. 00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:47.060 But we definitely stay out of, like, the day-to-day logistics, the planning and stuff like that. 00:15:47.060 --> 00:15:47.400 Sure. 00:15:47.400 --> 00:15:47.980 More high level. 00:15:47.980 --> 00:15:48.540 That's cool. 00:15:48.540 --> 00:15:48.820 Yeah. 00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:49.380 Yeah. 00:15:50.420 --> 00:15:52.800 And just trying to think of other things. 00:15:52.800 --> 00:15:57.420 I just, like, it seems like every meeting we're voting on, like, five, like, new funding requests. 00:15:57.420 --> 00:16:04.000 But it's definitely, like, just to, like, help kind of guide, like, the PSF. 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:19.040 Like, we recently started, somewhat recently, like, past year or so, started this, like, working group model where it kind of helps, like, people who want to get involved in the PSF and aren't, like, board members themselves can still, like, really contribute to the PSF. 00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:26.620 Like, we have a working group around, like, elections and, like, how to better, like, the process of elections. 00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:34.640 And the PSF's job is to sort of, like, recognize that working group and help provide the tools so that they can be successful. 00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:36.240 That's great. 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:42.340 So if somebody out there is listening and they want to get involved, what kinds of things can they do and how do they go about that? 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:44.260 Good question. 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:49.000 So just to be a member, it's actually quite simple. 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:53.880 It's just, like, python.org slash PSF slash membership. 00:16:55.160 --> 00:16:57.520 And there's, like, different membership classes. 00:16:57.520 --> 00:17:02.660 The most basic, the lowest tier one is called Basic Members where anyone can sign up. 00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:18.520 However, in order to be able to, like, vote and stuff, you'll either have to, like, be, like, a contributor in terms of, like, code or, like, sort of contributor in terms of, like, community, like a meetup organizer, like PyLadies organizer or something like that. 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:23.480 Or you can, like, give money either as an individual or as a company yourself. 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:32.560 And that's, like, how you can, like, vote in terms of, like, the board and, like, who to accept as company sponsors, stuff like that. 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:46.680 And if you wanted to get, like, if someone wanted to get involved beyond that, at least become a Basic Member and, like, join all the mailing lists that I can't even remember off the top of my head that are interesting to them. 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:55.860 And somewhere on our wiki, the wiki.python.org, is a list of all of our working groups. 00:17:57.080 --> 00:18:00.960 And I'm sorry, I don't have the link up right now. 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:01.300 That's fine. 00:18:01.300 --> 00:18:02.180 We'll put it in the show notes. 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:03.180 Oh, great. 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:18.360 And that way they can, like, ping individual people of, like, who they want to, like, help out, like, maybe, like, outreach and education or, like, sprint, like, committee or the elections working group or something like that. 00:18:18.360 --> 00:18:20.680 And you can get involved in that way. 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:24.700 Just participate in the discussion as much or as little as one wants. 00:18:25.860 --> 00:18:30.120 And then, yeah, we have a pretty active PSF members list. 00:18:30.120 --> 00:18:35.100 And that's also a good place to kind of have your ear to the ground and know what's going on. 00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:35.920 Okay. 00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:37.100 Yeah, that sounds really great. 00:18:37.100 --> 00:18:44.340 Basically, the starting points, go become a Basic Member and then go from there, which is just a matter of creating an account, more or less, right? 00:18:44.340 --> 00:18:44.840 Right. 00:18:44.840 --> 00:18:45.260 Yeah. 00:18:45.260 --> 00:18:48.180 We have, like, there's information, like, everywhere. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:58.380 And I'll be the first one to say or, like, to agree that it's really poorly laid out, like, where to find what information and, like, what could you be interested in? 00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:00.120 Like, I don't even know kind of thing. 00:19:00.120 --> 00:19:01.840 Is it, like, a new member or something like that? 00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:06.520 So it's definitely really hard to kind of, like, figure out where to go and stuff. 00:19:06.520 --> 00:19:11.800 But becoming a Basic Member and joining, like, the PSF members list is definitely, like, step one. 00:19:11.800 --> 00:19:14.400 And then you can ask as many questions as you want from there. 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:15.000 Okay. 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:15.940 Yeah, that's really helpful. 00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:16.400 Thanks. 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:30.140 This episode is brought to you by Hired. 00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:36.600 Hired is a two-sided, curated marketplace that connects the world's knowledge workers to the best opportunities. 00:19:36.600 --> 00:19:45.760 Each offer you receive has salary and equity presented right up front, and you can view the offers to accept or reject them before you even talk to the company. 00:19:46.420 --> 00:19:51.380 Typically, candidates receive five or more offers in just the first week, and there are no obligations. 00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:52.120 Ever. 00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:54.200 Sounds pretty awesome, doesn't it? 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:56.260 Well, did I mention there's a signing bonus? 00:19:56.260 --> 00:20:00.360 Everyone who accepts a job from Hired gets a $2,000 signing bonus. 00:20:00.360 --> 00:20:04.700 And as Talk Python listeners, it gets way sweeter. 00:20:04.700 --> 00:20:12.260 Use the link Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me, and Hired will double the signing bonus to $4,000. 00:20:12.260 --> 00:20:13.980 Opportunity's knocking. 00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:17.620 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me and answer the call. 00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:30.080 Another thing I wanted to talk to you about is PyLadies. 00:20:30.080 --> 00:20:35.460 And it sounds like PyLadies is sort of what became of your study group that you started. 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:36.300 Right. 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:36.760 Yeah. 00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:38.440 And I'm really surprised. 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.400 You said that it didn't exist in San Francisco, but it did in L.A. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.920 And you're like, why is this thing not in San Francisco, right? 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:45.780 Exactly. 00:20:45.780 --> 00:20:46.280 Yeah. 00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:48.080 Yeah. 00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:49.540 I mean, that's the whole reason I have this podcast. 00:20:49.540 --> 00:20:51.400 I went looking for a Python podcast. 00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.020 I'm like, why is there no Python podcast? 00:20:53.020 --> 00:20:53.920 What happened to them all? 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:58.700 Well, I guess if you really want something, you might have to make it yourself sometimes, 00:20:58.700 --> 00:20:58.960 right? 00:20:58.960 --> 00:20:59.700 Exactly. 00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:00.360 Yeah. 00:21:00.360 --> 00:21:01.280 So you started PyLadies. 00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:01.860 That's awesome. 00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:03.800 How long has that been going on, actually? 00:21:03.800 --> 00:21:08.400 So the San Francisco PyLadies has been around since April 2012. 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.660 So a little over three years, I guess, if my math is correct. 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:18.000 And the first PyLadies in L.A. started sometime in the fall of 2011. 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.540 I don't know exactly when. 00:21:19.540 --> 00:21:23.540 So it's pretty established in terms of communities. 00:21:23.540 --> 00:21:25.280 And yeah. 00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:26.420 Sure. 00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:29.780 It's a little regional because this is an international show. 00:21:29.780 --> 00:21:32.400 But for those listeners in San Francisco, where do you guys meet? 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.700 Oh, it varies. 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:40.780 I mean, tonight we have a meetup and we're going to the Uber office downtown. 00:21:40.780 --> 00:21:47.700 But we have a lot of weekly meetups, like study groups that go to the LinkedIn offices down 00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:53.460 in South Bay or Rackspace slash Geekdom up here in San Francisco area. 00:21:53.460 --> 00:21:59.040 But I mean, we have so many locations worldwide. 00:21:59.040 --> 00:22:04.260 And a lot of times it's just like regular meetups at a local coffee shop or something like that. 00:22:04.260 --> 00:22:04.580 Yeah. 00:22:04.580 --> 00:22:10.040 So if I wanted to see if my local city, like I live in Portland, Oregon, I want to know, 00:22:10.040 --> 00:22:10.900 hey, is there one in Portland? 00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:11.840 I think there is actually. 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:13.080 There definitely is. 00:22:13.080 --> 00:22:13.300 Yeah. 00:22:13.300 --> 00:22:14.380 How would I find out about it? 00:22:14.380 --> 00:22:15.060 Certainly. 00:22:15.060 --> 00:22:15.400 Yeah. 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:19.540 If you just go to like PyLadies.com, we have like a locations page. 00:22:19.540 --> 00:22:22.420 And we have a list of all like locations. 00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:29.720 There's some that aren't up there because in order to like have like your location up there, 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:31.580 you have to do like a pull request on GitHub. 00:22:31.580 --> 00:22:37.060 And sometimes it's just too much for people to like do or too little of like a task item to 00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:37.740 like remember. 00:22:38.120 --> 00:22:40.480 So like that's not a complete list. 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:44.440 But it's definitely a very good place to start. 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:52.780 Now, if you find out that there is no PyLadies like locally, you're more than welcome to start 00:22:52.780 --> 00:22:55.520 one kind of like how I did myself and how you did your podcast. 00:22:56.800 --> 00:23:00.800 There's a nice little jumping off point, kit.pyladies.com. 00:23:00.800 --> 00:23:01.440 Oh, nice. 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.280 Yeah. 00:23:02.280 --> 00:23:07.380 That's our like starter kit of like how to bring PyLadies to like your location if you want it. 00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:08.220 Cool. 00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:08.600 Yeah. 00:23:08.600 --> 00:23:09.360 We'll put that in the show notes. 00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:10.180 Yeah. 00:23:10.180 --> 00:23:16.220 I think it's really great that you're promoting more diversity in general and specifically about 00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:17.200 women in programming. 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:25.600 You know, I have three daughters and, you know, I would like to see a world where they are excited 00:23:25.600 --> 00:23:29.040 about these kinds of things and feel like it's a welcoming place. 00:23:29.040 --> 00:23:30.640 Definitely. 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:36.240 I don't know what it is about Python, but it seems like it has a better story in terms of 00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.120 diversity compared to other languages. 00:23:38.120 --> 00:23:39.940 I would agree with that. 00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:40.380 Yes. 00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:42.000 Go ahead. 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:42.340 Yeah. 00:23:42.340 --> 00:23:45.500 I was going to say, I have no idea why this is the case, but I do a lot of training and I'll 00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:52.420 do training with like classes like MongoDB or C# or other things, JavaScript and so 00:23:52.420 --> 00:23:53.940 on in Python, of course. 00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:59.320 And it seems like the Python classes just have a whole, a whole different population that 00:23:59.320 --> 00:24:04.520 just seems to represent society more correctly than, than the other stuff, which, which is 00:24:04.520 --> 00:24:06.220 really nice, but I don't really know why. 00:24:06.220 --> 00:24:07.480 Right. 00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:15.140 I mean, I started to hypothesize this myself, at least comparing with like other like communities, 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:19.940 not necessarily like C, but like, like Ruby or Java or Node, whatever. 00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:26.600 It really helps to have like sort of leadership of the community kind of really like buy in. 00:24:26.600 --> 00:24:31.360 But it really helps us that like Guido himself is really passionate. 00:24:31.360 --> 00:24:37.020 He was actually the first, one of the first speakers that I had at like my Women Who Code 00:24:37.020 --> 00:24:37.660 Study group. 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:38.240 Oh, wow. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:38.720 That's excellent. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.740 Yeah, I know. 00:24:39.820 --> 00:24:42.720 So he's like 100% behind this, these sorts of efforts. 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.560 And it's very convenient that he lives in the Bay Area for me, right? 00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:47.920 Yeah, that's cool. 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:53.660 He had a really nice presentation that sort of touched on this at PyCon 2015 as well. 00:24:53.660 --> 00:24:54.500 Right. 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:54.760 Yeah. 00:24:54.860 --> 00:25:01.120 He, he asked, or he wants, he wants basically like women as core developers, because currently 00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:01.920 there are none. 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:07.060 And I think he was like, he's like, I'll help mentor folks or help mentor women to be a core 00:25:07.060 --> 00:25:07.480 developer. 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.500 And, you know, I think that's like really awesome. 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:16.040 And I'm, I'm actually, I have like a pretty good idea for a meetup here locally, since he, 00:25:16.040 --> 00:25:18.160 since he's like down the street, practically. 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:23.640 So that's sort of help kind of get involved in committing to, to see Python. 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:28.500 But yeah, it really, it definitely helps when like leadership like him and the PSF organization 00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:34.060 itself kind of set the tone of why it's important and, and people sort of just follow. 00:25:34.060 --> 00:25:40.820 Of course, you know, there's always descending voices in any community in any stance, but it 00:25:40.820 --> 00:25:46.580 really helps to see that like when leadership says that this is important, people will feel 00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:52.180 more, more willing to like help out or to like just be proactive about something. 00:25:52.180 --> 00:25:56.800 So I think that that's the difference between like the Python community and other communities. 00:25:56.800 --> 00:25:57.340 I agree. 00:25:57.340 --> 00:26:01.740 You know, there's probably a lot of people on these types of issues that are like sort 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:05.400 of just sitting on the couch, like, I'd like to do something about it, but whatever. 00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:08.780 You know, those little nudges might be enough to actually make a change. 00:26:08.780 --> 00:26:09.300 Right. 00:26:09.300 --> 00:26:09.760 Exactly. 00:26:09.760 --> 00:26:14.320 Another thing I'd like to talk about is a project that you're involved with called New Coder 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:15.800 at newcoder.io. 00:26:15.800 --> 00:26:16.620 Right. 00:26:16.620 --> 00:26:17.240 Yes. 00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:18.880 What's the story with that? 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:19.440 That looks cool. 00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:20.480 Thank you. 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:21.060 yeah. 00:26:21.060 --> 00:26:27.040 So this was, so I wrote this a couple of years ago, 2012, I believe is when I first 00:26:27.040 --> 00:26:27.660 released it. 00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:31.720 and it's basically, taking, no, it was 2013, I think. 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:36.900 I'm basically taking all these sort of projects that I subjected to the people that came to my 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.560 study group and, and made it in like written form. 00:26:39.560 --> 00:26:43.980 So like, not just like San Francisco piloties can use them, but like everyone who 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:47.800 want, who's willing to learn Python and wanting to learn how to code can, can reach. 00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:53.880 So, the premise of this is like, say you, you know, did learn Python the hard 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:58.700 way or dive into Python or some other sort of work book, like, like sort of goes through 00:26:58.700 --> 00:27:02.400 the syntax and a little bit of like logic of Python. 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.080 And you're like, all right, what next? 00:27:04.080 --> 00:27:06.640 What can, like, I'm not going to get hired right now. 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:09.300 So, what can I actually do? 00:27:09.300 --> 00:27:16.740 So, with new coder is, is there, it's five different, tutorials and, it sort 00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:20.260 of, it definitely graduates in sort of, difficulty. 00:27:20.260 --> 00:27:23.400 but, there's no real order. 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:29.380 You can like choose whatever order that you want, but, it, the, it's meant to teach the 00:27:29.380 --> 00:27:35.820 new coder, like various things at various points in time with certain noob friendly language. 00:27:35.820 --> 00:27:39.280 and like asides, like you might not know this term. 00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:43.100 Like, or you might not understand what a class is or inheritance is. 00:27:43.100 --> 00:27:46.920 So here's where you can read more information or, or here's a little blurb that you can just 00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:47.560 go ahead and skip. 00:27:47.560 --> 00:27:49.460 If you actually do understand this kind of thing. 00:27:49.460 --> 00:27:50.080 Right. 00:27:50.080 --> 00:27:51.060 That's really cool. 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:56.000 And I think one of the challenges people have, especially when you're a beginner is to put 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.860 meaning behind the thing you're struggling with. 00:27:59.860 --> 00:28:05.720 So for example, if, if you're like having a really hard time with a for loop, foreign loop, 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:10.240 or you're having a hard time with like if statements or functions, those are all so small building 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:14.000 blocks that they're not interesting in and of themselves. 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.200 But if, but if you can see like, okay, if I force myself to learn these little kind of 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:23.280 trivial, not trivial, but you know, sort of fact based things that I have to just memorize 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:26.940 or understand, I can do something awesome on the other side of that. 00:28:26.940 --> 00:28:32.080 And I think these projects are the key to like making that shortening that cycle, I guess. 00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:32.780 Yeah. 00:28:32.780 --> 00:28:33.180 Thank you. 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:33.380 Yeah. 00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:36.320 That's definitely something I was trying to go for with that. 00:28:36.320 --> 00:28:41.640 But yeah, I've got, I've gotten a lot of good feedback from people just like sending emails 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:45.020 saying, you know, like this is exactly what folks needed. 00:28:45.020 --> 00:28:50.880 And like, I find that when I lead workshops explaining these sorts of things in the way 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:55.920 that I've written down a new coder, it helps people kind of like, like have those light bulb 00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:00.020 moments, which are really needed, especially when you're a new coder, because there are a lot 00:29:00.020 --> 00:29:01.100 of frustrating moments. 00:29:01.100 --> 00:29:04.020 And to have like a little light bulb moment is really reassuring. 00:29:04.020 --> 00:29:08.120 And then to have, and then to have something at the end of the tutorial that you can show 00:29:08.120 --> 00:29:13.620 off to someone else, that's also rewarding rather than like some simple exercise from like 00:29:13.620 --> 00:29:16.760 when Python the hard way, like, yay, I did a for loop. 00:29:16.760 --> 00:29:17.440 Look at that. 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:18.620 Yeah, exactly. 00:29:18.620 --> 00:29:19.240 Yeah. 00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:25.220 If you have a tutorial with like, you know, data visualization, like from, map plotlib or 00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:26.980 something, it can actually show that to someone. 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:28.100 Yeah. 00:29:28.100 --> 00:29:30.020 I think that that serves a lot of purposes. 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:35.840 You know, I read somewhere, somebody had studied a bunch of entrepreneurs and people 00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:38.660 in Silicon Valley that, that became successful. 00:29:38.660 --> 00:29:42.840 And they said, it seems like by studying these people, we've, it's not necessarily the case 00:29:42.840 --> 00:29:46.800 that the people who succeed versus the people who fail are the ones who are the smartest. 00:29:46.800 --> 00:29:50.580 It seems like the most important skill is persistence. 00:29:50.580 --> 00:29:54.940 The ones who just keep trying until they find their way through these, these types of things 00:29:54.940 --> 00:29:58.260 that you have to power through when you're, you're getting started on stuff and, you know, 00:29:58.260 --> 00:30:00.700 more complex as you start companies and so on. 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:02.640 It seems to be the most important skill. 00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:03.300 Right. 00:30:03.300 --> 00:30:03.660 Right. 00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:04.360 Yes, definitely. 00:30:04.360 --> 00:30:09.940 And I think tutorials and like concrete examples and stuff make it easier to be persistent because 00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:11.840 you see what's down the tunnel. 00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:13.900 You're not like, oh, I hate programming. 00:30:13.900 --> 00:30:14.760 It's all these little facts. 00:30:14.760 --> 00:30:18.700 It's like, it's kind of like learning math in the early days when, when nobody connects 00:30:18.700 --> 00:30:19.580 any dots for you. 00:30:19.820 --> 00:30:20.220 Right. 00:30:20.220 --> 00:30:20.720 Exactly. 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:21.520 Yeah. 00:30:21.520 --> 00:30:22.380 Cool. 00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:24.600 So you have five tutorials up there now. 00:30:24.600 --> 00:30:30.600 You've got data visualization, APIs, networks, web scraping, and GUI stuff, right? 00:30:30.600 --> 00:30:31.400 Right. 00:30:31.400 --> 00:30:31.880 Yes. 00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:33.860 Yeah. 00:30:33.860 --> 00:30:34.520 So those are fun. 00:30:34.520 --> 00:30:37.460 And people, if they're, they're getting started or they want something more practical 00:30:37.460 --> 00:30:43.040 than just language stuff to play around with, or they need to recommend a resource for someone 00:30:43.040 --> 00:30:47.520 else, more likely if they're listening to this podcast, then, you know, check out newcoder.io and, 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:48.740 you know, pass it around. 00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:50.520 Thanks for the plug. 00:30:50.520 --> 00:30:50.860 Yeah. 00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:51.180 Yeah. 00:30:51.180 --> 00:30:51.500 You bet. 00:30:51.500 --> 00:30:52.080 No problem. 00:30:52.080 --> 00:30:53.080 That's really cool. 00:30:53.080 --> 00:30:58.440 You also have some open source projects that you're working on connected to your work at 00:30:58.440 --> 00:30:59.360 Spotify, right? 00:30:59.360 --> 00:31:00.240 Right. 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:00.780 Yes. 00:31:00.780 --> 00:31:02.340 Do you want to talk a little bit about those? 00:31:02.340 --> 00:31:03.120 Yeah. 00:31:03.120 --> 00:31:04.120 I'd love to. 00:31:04.120 --> 00:31:10.080 So conveniently, actually, this week right now is our hack week. 00:31:10.080 --> 00:31:15.480 About twice a year, Spotify holds hack weeks to just kind of hack on what you want, not 00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.180 necessarily like Spotify, but it could be Spotify related. 00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:28.220 And a year ago, I actually hacked together a prototype as a Flask app that was, it's like 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:29.460 a playground for APIs. 00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:37.460 If you go to developer.spotify.com slash web dash API, there's a console linked there. 00:31:37.460 --> 00:31:42.360 And you can actually play with our APIs via the console to kind of figure out what goes 00:31:42.360 --> 00:31:46.300 on, what kind of responses you'll get, what kind of queries that we accept, that kind of 00:31:46.300 --> 00:31:46.620 stuff. 00:31:46.620 --> 00:31:50.960 I mean, it was pretty awesome because like it came out of a hack week. 00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:55.900 Everyone sort of like understood why it was important because I hated answering sort of the 00:31:55.900 --> 00:31:57.280 same questions over and over again. 00:31:57.280 --> 00:31:58.440 How do I use your API? 00:31:58.840 --> 00:31:59.640 So I built this. 00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:04.400 And I guess like a lot of people loved it that we just sort of put it out there and it's been 00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:05.160 really successful. 00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:10.460 And from that, I've, I'm open sourcing the technology behind that. 00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:15.700 And the first thing that I open source, which was just a couple weeks ago, is a RAML parser. 00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:18.760 And the actual library name is called RAMLifications. 00:32:18.760 --> 00:32:19.760 Good name. 00:32:20.080 --> 00:32:20.360 Yeah. 00:32:20.360 --> 00:32:21.540 I love punny names. 00:32:21.540 --> 00:32:27.360 But RAML is like, it stands for REST API markup language. 00:32:27.360 --> 00:32:30.020 And it's like YAML. 00:32:30.020 --> 00:32:35.920 And it's basically a way for you to kind of define how an API is. 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:40.060 Like we have a Spotify API defined in RAML. 00:32:40.060 --> 00:32:46.260 And you can see the title is like web API and like the base URL, the version, like the endpoints, 00:32:46.260 --> 00:32:50.120 if it accepts like OAuth or, or something else, that kind of stuff. 00:32:50.120 --> 00:32:55.320 So it's a really like great, like source, like end all be all source for a web API. 00:32:55.320 --> 00:33:00.760 And so the RAMLifications, like it parses that into like Python, like objects. 00:33:00.760 --> 00:33:08.880 And then this week I'm taking that and writing like a static documentation generator. 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:16.500 Just making like HTML files that you can like, like host anywhere that creates documentation off of RAML. 00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:25.540 So if you have your API, your REST API defined in RAML, and like you've written like all the docs in there kind of thing, 00:33:25.540 --> 00:33:30.020 you can just, you know, run it through this new project that hopefully will be open source soon. 00:33:30.020 --> 00:33:32.660 And you'll have some nice HTML files. 00:33:32.980 --> 00:33:38.860 And then from there, this is like the in-between step, I'll actually like open source the console itself. 00:33:38.860 --> 00:33:46.860 So that, so folks can make their own sort of web site for how to interact with, with their own API. 00:33:46.860 --> 00:33:49.040 Yeah, that's really neat. 00:33:49.040 --> 00:33:52.240 I think those are a cool set of projects that all kind of work together. 00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:59.960 A lot of times you'll end up with these, you know, just basically static documentation around, around people's APIs. 00:33:59.960 --> 00:34:11.060 And then, you know, if it doesn't quite work, like the way you're interpreting what they have written, or, you know, if, if it changes and the API documentation comes, becomes out of date, it's super frustrating. 00:34:11.060 --> 00:34:11.440 Right. 00:34:11.580 --> 00:34:17.700 And you end up writing these little, little apps to just like call the API and spit it out to go, okay, this is what I'm actually getting. 00:34:17.700 --> 00:34:18.580 What does it look like? 00:34:18.580 --> 00:34:22.380 And, and your, your web API console is just like, let's skip that. 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:23.520 And you can just check it right here. 00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:24.660 Right, exactly. 00:34:24.660 --> 00:34:29.120 And some people are just more visual or more interactive rather than reading through documentation. 00:34:29.120 --> 00:34:30.720 So, yeah. 00:34:30.720 --> 00:34:31.380 Yeah. 00:34:31.380 --> 00:34:34.940 It's never really like inspiring to read through documentation. 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:37.860 I think it kind of goes back to that persistence thing. 00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:44.800 Like, am I willing to power through this so I can have a cool app that uses Spotify or, or am I going to stop because the documentation is, is too much. 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:45.060 Right. 00:34:45.060 --> 00:34:46.740 But luckily you're solving that problem. 00:34:46.740 --> 00:34:53.100 Have you noticed any change in like the adoption of the API or how long has it been out? 00:34:53.100 --> 00:34:53.400 It's not. 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:57.420 I think it's been out at least six months or so. 00:34:57.420 --> 00:34:57.420 Okay. 00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:00.600 So maybe that it could possibly have some sort of effect you could see. 00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:01.980 Right. 00:35:01.980 --> 00:35:06.740 I'm going to be honest that I don't pay attention to our usage, web API usage. 00:35:06.740 --> 00:35:15.120 But I do know that like the site that the console itself gets maybe like low tens of thousands of views a month. 00:35:15.120 --> 00:35:17.340 So it is being used. 00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:20.520 And yeah, it's definitely an internal favorite too. 00:35:20.520 --> 00:35:20.880 Yeah. 00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:21.560 I'm sure. 00:35:21.560 --> 00:35:24.000 I'm like, oh, I want to test our own API. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:24.780 Let me go have a look. 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:25.720 I forgot what this does. 00:35:25.720 --> 00:35:25.980 Right. 00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:27.260 I'm sure this happens. 00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:28.780 Or hey, you're new here. 00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:29.500 Go here first. 00:35:29.500 --> 00:35:30.320 Go check this out. 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:30.640 Right. 00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:30.940 Yeah. 00:35:32.680 --> 00:35:33.080 Nice. 00:35:33.080 --> 00:35:36.860 So it sounds like these projects are really closely tied to what you're doing at Spotify. 00:35:36.860 --> 00:35:38.120 And they're all in Python. 00:35:38.120 --> 00:35:39.960 What's the story with Python at Spotify? 00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:40.860 Can you talk about that? 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:42.280 Sure. 00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:44.380 It's actually kind of a sad story. 00:35:45.520 --> 00:35:53.820 So my team and what I do, I'm back an engineer with five other developers. 00:35:53.820 --> 00:35:56.860 And we do like strategic integrations. 00:35:56.860 --> 00:35:58.420 We're based in San Francisco. 00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:04.080 So like a lot of the integration projects is with other local San Francisco like companies. 00:36:04.080 --> 00:36:14.440 For instance, the recent Spotify and Uber integration where you can like listen to music during your ride through the car speakers. 00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:16.880 Like that was like us. 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:18.240 That was our team that did that. 00:36:18.240 --> 00:36:18.900 That's pretty awesome. 00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:19.520 Yeah. 00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:21.040 So it was really awesome. 00:36:21.040 --> 00:36:21.560 Really fun. 00:36:21.560 --> 00:36:24.520 And so we do stuff like that. 00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:31.140 And in some cases stuff is written in Python, but more often than not it's now being like written in Java. 00:36:31.140 --> 00:36:47.220 The reason is we kind of like we kind of had this like corporate like mandate maybe about a year ago that we're kind of writing new services that have end user like facing like capabilities or like whatever. 00:36:47.220 --> 00:36:49.500 They have to be like written in Java. 00:36:50.500 --> 00:36:58.420 And it's because that I know a lot of people will say, well, wait, Spotify is like IO bound, not CPU bound. 00:36:58.420 --> 00:36:59.040 Why the move? 00:36:59.040 --> 00:37:01.160 And it's true that we are IO bound. 00:37:01.160 --> 00:37:18.080 And however, there's a lot of issues when trying to run like, I don't know, like 23 like processes of the same service on one machine trying to connect to the same Postgres database and memcache and stuff like that. 00:37:18.080 --> 00:37:24.980 So there's a lot of orchestration that gets complicated when you have multiple like Python processes running on one server. 00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:28.900 So believe me, I've tried, I've had many arguments. 00:37:28.900 --> 00:37:35.780 I've like sat down with our senior architect and really try to like go for Python and maybe PyPy or something like that. 00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:39.080 But in the end, I kind of like lost the argument. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:46.740 And so a lot of our end user facing stuff like the web API is written in Java. 00:37:46.740 --> 00:37:50.460 However, there's a lot of other stuff written in Python. 00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:56.660 For instance, let's see, all of our analytics stuff is in Python. 00:37:56.660 --> 00:38:04.740 We have Hadoop and we can run stuff with Java, but a lot of the actual jobs are written in Python. 00:38:04.740 --> 00:38:12.240 And then we have, let's see, like our DNS sort of service discovery systems written in Python. 00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:17.380 However, I think that's starting to move to our payment system in Python. 00:38:17.380 --> 00:38:31.740 Content management where like the labels that actually give us the music, that they'll dump a lot of metadata and songs itself to us, like FTP or something like that. 00:38:31.740 --> 00:38:37.880 And we process all of that in Python because it's like not really end user or speed. 00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:42.880 Yeah, you're not concerned about shaving that 5% performance off or whatever, right? 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:44.120 Right, exactly. 00:38:44.120 --> 00:38:48.220 So there is a lot of Python within Spotify. 00:38:48.220 --> 00:38:50.940 It's just like not what... 00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:52.200 It's not at the center. 00:38:52.200 --> 00:38:53.960 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:54.540 Yeah, okay. 00:38:54.540 --> 00:38:55.920 Well, that sounds really interesting. 00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:02.380 You were saying like some of the thoughts about like running a bunch of processes on this machine and on the treble. 00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:07.120 You know, maybe you guys could try some tricks with Docker. 00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:08.940 This could be a possibility. 00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:09.800 We actually... 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:10.160 Have you tried that? 00:39:10.160 --> 00:39:11.880 We're actually using Docker. 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:13.780 We're migrating towards Docker. 00:39:13.780 --> 00:39:17.940 We have open source Helios, which is our Docker manager or something like that. 00:39:18.720 --> 00:39:20.560 And that will also... 00:39:20.560 --> 00:39:27.140 That supposedly, in a lot of Pythonistas' eyes, will allow us to be okay with like running our services in Python. 00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:31.400 But it's still in the very early stages of like what Docker and Helios can do. 00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:32.380 Okay, that's really excellent. 00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:35.900 That's at github.com/Spotify slash Helios. 00:39:35.900 --> 00:39:37.380 I'll put that in the show notes as well. 00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:37.980 Very nice. 00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:38.940 Yeah. 00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:41.760 And then have you guys thought about Jython? 00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:43.740 Like if you're so into Java? 00:39:43.740 --> 00:39:45.860 Yeah. 00:39:45.860 --> 00:39:50.580 I actually don't know what our senior architect feels about that. 00:39:50.580 --> 00:39:51.380 I don't... 00:39:51.380 --> 00:39:53.940 Like I've actually never played with like within Jython. 00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:58.700 But it's definitely something to go the direction to look into. 00:39:58.700 --> 00:39:59.020 Sure. 00:39:59.020 --> 00:40:02.480 I know some of the other major companies around there are using it. 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.440 But I probably shouldn't talk about it since I'm not sure if I'm supposed to. 00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:06.360 If I'm allowed to. 00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:13.280 But yeah, there's definitely some large like high-end web companies out there doing cool stuff with Jython. 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:15.160 For a while, I thought it was dead. 00:40:15.160 --> 00:40:17.780 It seemed like it hadn't been updated in a long time. 00:40:17.780 --> 00:40:20.760 It was like supported like Python 2.5 or something. 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:25.140 And finally, I think it now supports 2.7, but it still doesn't support 3 as far as I know. 00:40:25.140 --> 00:40:26.140 Mm-hmm. 00:40:26.140 --> 00:40:26.540 Right. 00:40:26.540 --> 00:40:33.900 A couple of years or maybe like a year and a half ago, we had one of the core developers of Jython come speak up, high ladies. 00:40:34.580 --> 00:40:38.160 And he was like, we just released 2.7 and now we can start 3. 00:40:38.160 --> 00:40:40.960 So there is energy and people behind it. 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:42.400 It's just like not enough people. 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.200 I'm sure it's a massive project. 00:40:44.200 --> 00:40:47.420 And if it doesn't have a lot of support, it's really hard to keep up. 00:40:47.420 --> 00:40:47.900 Definitely. 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:53.400 But yeah, I'm glad to see it going because I know it enables some people to do cool stuff, which is all good. 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:54.300 Mm-hmm. 00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:54.700 Right. 00:40:55.700 --> 00:41:01.060 So another thing that you like to do is speak in at conferences and user groups and meetups and stuff, right? 00:41:01.060 --> 00:41:01.920 Right. 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:02.260 Yeah. 00:41:02.260 --> 00:41:08.640 And I saw you have a page with a whole bunch of sessions, like, I don't know, just a quick scroll count. 00:41:08.640 --> 00:41:12.880 It's like 15 or something, but quite a few at rogueland.com slash talks. 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.080 Mm-hmm. 00:41:14.080 --> 00:41:18.720 Are there some of your favorites up there that you want to, like, point out to people, maybe have videos or something? 00:41:18.720 --> 00:41:19.120 Right. 00:41:20.560 --> 00:41:25.100 As an aside note, I literally just, like, over the weekend redid my site. 00:41:25.100 --> 00:41:28.380 And I only redid it for, like, the words part, like, the blog part. 00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:34.840 So I apologize if, like, people are going to, like, rogueland.com slash talks and be like, ew, this looks ugly. 00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:35.460 Like, whatever. 00:41:35.460 --> 00:41:36.380 Like, I'll get there. 00:41:36.380 --> 00:41:37.800 Let's say it looks minimalist, huh? 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:38.460 Yeah. 00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:38.760 Yeah. 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:39.500 Yeah, definitely. 00:41:39.500 --> 00:41:41.180 But yeah. 00:41:41.180 --> 00:41:45.820 So, like, actually, one of my favorite talks to give is how to spy with Python. 00:41:46.620 --> 00:41:55.200 And it's basically, like, working with Scapee, the project Scapee, to basically sniff, like, wireless traffic. 00:41:55.200 --> 00:41:58.180 It's a Python wrapper around TCP dump. 00:41:58.180 --> 00:42:04.740 And it's really fun to show people what you can do because that's basically what the NSA is doing. 00:42:04.740 --> 00:42:13.180 And, like, it's a tongue-in-cheek way to, like, show people, like, what's going on in, like, an international global level of, like, privacy issues. 00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:15.780 But Scapee is a lot of fun to play with. 00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:17.900 And it's one of my favorite talks to give. 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:19.040 Yeah, that sounds really cool. 00:42:19.040 --> 00:42:19.760 Yeah. 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:21.480 I recommend people check it out. 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:24.760 And some of these are on YouTube and other places, Vimeo, whatever, right? 00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:26.100 Right, yeah. 00:42:26.100 --> 00:42:27.560 I try to link to everything. 00:42:27.560 --> 00:42:30.980 I should probably update some of this stuff, too. 00:42:30.980 --> 00:42:33.740 Well, if the page is in for a refresh, maybe, huh? 00:42:33.740 --> 00:42:34.640 Yeah, right. 00:42:34.640 --> 00:42:35.220 Cool. 00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:39.580 I'll put some of those in the show notes as well, and I'll link to that, of course. 00:42:39.580 --> 00:42:44.200 I think that just about covers all the stuff that I wanted to talk to you about. 00:42:44.200 --> 00:42:49.000 And I think it's a whole bunch of interesting paths. 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:52.820 Like you said, it's a little scattered, but they're all super interesting. 00:42:52.820 --> 00:42:56.980 And so if people are out there with, like, meetups or user groups, can they, you know, 00:42:56.980 --> 00:43:00.720 do you recommend they go to New Coder and try some of your tutorials, 00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:03.620 maybe make those, like, workshops or sessions or something there? 00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:05.680 Yes, definitely. 00:43:05.680 --> 00:43:08.140 I have a couple of them. 00:43:08.140 --> 00:43:11.080 If you go to New Coder, I think it's just slash workshops, 00:43:11.080 --> 00:43:15.480 that there's, like, PDF versions of everything. 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:18.380 They do need to be updated since my last site refresh. 00:43:18.380 --> 00:43:20.340 But everything's also on GitHub. 00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:25.000 And please feel free to, like, take them, adapt them however you want, 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:26.700 and teach off them. 00:43:26.700 --> 00:43:32.500 A lot of PyLadies leaders actually take a couple of tutorials to lead their own workshops. 00:43:32.500 --> 00:43:33.800 So by all means. 00:43:34.640 --> 00:43:37.120 You know, I've done some stuff with Hour of Code and so on, 00:43:37.120 --> 00:43:40.320 and it seems really daunting to lead those types of groups 00:43:40.320 --> 00:43:43.700 and put something together for people to really appreciate. 00:43:43.700 --> 00:43:47.700 But if you can grab a resource like that, or, you know, in the case of Hour of Code, 00:43:47.700 --> 00:43:50.800 some of the little tutorials and stuff they have online, 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.600 it makes it so much easier to get involved and help out in the community. 00:43:53.600 --> 00:43:54.960 Right, definitely. 00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:58.500 There's one more thing for people to, let's say it this way, 00:43:58.500 --> 00:44:01.240 there's one fewer excuse for people to use. 00:44:02.020 --> 00:44:02.700 Right, yeah. 00:44:02.700 --> 00:44:04.560 All right. 00:44:04.560 --> 00:44:08.280 Anything else you want to talk about while you're here? 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:09.340 Let people know about? 00:44:09.340 --> 00:44:11.340 Well, I'll be at EuroPython. 00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:14.980 So if anyone else is going to EuroPython, come to say hi. 00:44:14.980 --> 00:44:16.240 I'm giving a couple talks there. 00:44:16.240 --> 00:44:17.680 That'll be excellent. 00:44:17.680 --> 00:44:18.300 What are the talks? 00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:21.060 One is one that I actually just gave this weekend. 00:44:21.060 --> 00:44:26.640 It's about how my team is doing metrics and how we're, like, it's metrics-driven development, 00:44:26.640 --> 00:44:30.420 how we're powering sort of the data that we are newly collecting behind, like, 00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:32.480 the sort of decisions that we're making. 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:38.080 And the talk is about kind of taking what we learned and, like, 00:44:38.080 --> 00:44:40.880 you don't need to necessarily measure everything, but, like, 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.480 what do you need to measure and how do you decide that? 00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:50.500 And then the other talk that I'll be giving is basically kind of sort of like a status update 00:44:50.500 --> 00:44:53.440 slash what we still need to do about, like, diversity in Python. 00:44:53.440 --> 00:45:01.560 We've come a long way, but there's still a long way to go to really sort of create a welcoming environment for everyone. 00:45:02.140 --> 00:45:06.700 And since Python community is a leader, we should, in that sort of thing, 00:45:06.700 --> 00:45:11.060 we should definitely continue to be a leader in being very diverse and welcoming. 00:45:11.060 --> 00:45:12.800 Yeah, I totally agree. 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:16.760 And it seems like that's still a really positive thing going on there. 00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:18.060 It's just not done. 00:45:18.060 --> 00:45:19.640 Right, right, yeah. 00:45:19.640 --> 00:45:25.060 All right, so one of the questions I like to ask my guests before we wrap up a show is, 00:45:25.060 --> 00:45:29.340 what's your favorite PyPI package or thing out there that you'd like to tell everyone, 00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:30.580 hey, check this out, it's really cool? 00:45:31.580 --> 00:45:32.900 Ramifications, of course. 00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:34.700 Right, yeah. 00:45:34.700 --> 00:45:39.000 But besides something else that I've written, 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:47.700 one of my favorite packages that kind of was released a few weeks ago was adders, A-T-T-R-S. 00:45:47.700 --> 00:45:54.240 And it's basically a package that allows you to, like, not have to write a bunch of boilerplate code. 00:45:54.240 --> 00:45:55.400 Like what? Give us an example. 00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:57.920 So actually, I use it in ramifications. 00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:08.780 Adders allows you to kind of, like, make a nice class and, like, set some attributes of, like, 00:46:08.780 --> 00:46:12.740 this should be in the init method or should be in the repr method. 00:46:12.740 --> 00:46:19.520 And allows you to do, like, some, like, comparisons, like a complete set of comparisons. 00:46:19.780 --> 00:46:24.100 It just, it makes, like, writing code even easier, even more simpler. 00:46:24.100 --> 00:46:24.740 Yeah. 00:46:24.740 --> 00:46:25.900 Yeah, that's cool. 00:46:25.900 --> 00:46:26.460 Very cool. 00:46:26.460 --> 00:46:28.160 Like default values and things like that. 00:46:28.160 --> 00:46:28.860 Right. 00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:29.220 Yeah. 00:46:29.220 --> 00:46:29.460 Okay. 00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:29.780 Exactly. 00:46:29.780 --> 00:46:30.380 Very nice. 00:46:30.380 --> 00:46:31.440 Yeah, I'll put that in the show notes. 00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:34.280 And they've got some good documentation as well. 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:35.740 Yes, definitely. 00:46:35.740 --> 00:46:37.900 And, yeah, ramifications definitely uses it. 00:46:37.900 --> 00:46:40.720 And, like, so much more code would have been written without it. 00:46:40.720 --> 00:46:41.440 Really nice. 00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:41.920 Really nice. 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:44.360 All right, final question before you go. 00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:46.360 What editor are you using these days? 00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:48.220 I use Sublime. 00:46:48.220 --> 00:46:48.660 Sublime. 00:46:48.660 --> 00:46:49.220 Oh, yeah. 00:46:49.220 --> 00:46:49.580 Yeah. 00:46:49.580 --> 00:46:51.220 I like Sublime as well. 00:46:51.220 --> 00:46:53.140 I do, too. 00:46:53.140 --> 00:46:56.320 My coworker's trying to get me to use, like, PyCharm or IntelliJ. 00:46:56.560 --> 00:46:58.620 But, I mean, every time I try, I just get sad. 00:46:58.620 --> 00:47:00.560 So, I just move back to Sublime. 00:47:00.560 --> 00:47:01.500 Yeah, that's really interesting. 00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:03.480 I use Sublime for a lot of things. 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:06.180 I'm a big fan of PyCharm myself as well. 00:47:06.180 --> 00:47:11.140 But I certainly, you know, a close second is Sublime for many things. 00:47:11.140 --> 00:47:12.980 It's definitely nice. 00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:13.220 Right. 00:47:13.220 --> 00:47:15.400 All right, Lynn. 00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:16.480 Thank you for being on the show. 00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:19.440 It's been super interesting to touch on all these topics. 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:20.540 Yes, thanks for having me. 00:47:20.540 --> 00:47:21.280 It's been a lot of fun. 00:47:21.280 --> 00:47:21.560 Yeah. 00:47:21.560 --> 00:47:22.080 Great. 00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:25.140 And we'll put links to, like, your website and your Twitter and everything in the show notes 00:47:25.140 --> 00:47:27.920 so people can just go to the website and find you that way. 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:28.800 That's fantastic. 00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:29.820 Thank you so much. 00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:30.300 Thanks. 00:47:30.300 --> 00:47:30.520 Bye. 00:47:30.520 --> 00:47:34.160 This has been another episode of Talk Python To Me. 00:47:34.160 --> 00:47:35.920 Today's guest was Lynn Root. 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:39.260 And this episode has been sponsored by Codeship and Hired. 00:47:39.260 --> 00:47:41.040 Thanks, guys, for supporting the show. 00:47:41.040 --> 00:47:46.480 Check out Codeship at Codeship.com and thank them on Twitter via at Codeship. 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:48.620 Don't forget the discount code for listeners. 00:47:48.620 --> 00:47:49.320 It's easy. 00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:50.280 Talk Python. 00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:50.900 All caps. 00:47:50.900 --> 00:47:51.760 No spaces. 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.960 Hired wants to help you find your next big thing. 00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:01.140 Visit Hired.com slash Talk Python To Me to get five or more offers with a salary and equity 00:48:01.140 --> 00:48:02.420 presented right up front. 00:48:02.420 --> 00:48:05.760 You'll also get a special listener signing bonus of $4,000. 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.800 There are just two more days to get the Talk Python To Me t-shirt. 00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:14.800 Quick, go to bit.ly slash python shirt and reserve yours before the Kickstarter closes on Thursday. 00:48:14.800 --> 00:48:21.400 You can find the links from the show at Talk Python To Me.com slash episodes slash show slash 15. 00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:25.040 And before you go, be sure to subscribe to the show. 00:48:25.040 --> 00:48:27.740 Open your favorite podcatcher and search for Python. 00:48:27.740 --> 00:48:29.060 We should be right at the top. 00:48:29.060 --> 00:48:33.340 You can also find the iTunes and direct RSS feeds in the footer on the website. 00:48:33.340 --> 00:48:35.540 This is your host, Michael Kennedy. 00:48:35.540 --> 00:48:36.380 Thanks for listening. 00:48:36.380 --> 00:48:38.920 Smix, take us out of here. 00:48:38.920 --> 00:49:00.240 I'm first to follow.